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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:57:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Pithecanthropus
... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't.
I can't know you because you are hiding your identity behind a posting alt. Hence I can't judge your past commitment or posting record, I can't know your in-game history, I can't tell if you are serious or just trolling continually to derail threads. You are pretty much the perfect illustration of why posting with alts is destroying debate on these forums.
You can't be insulted really because you don't have an identity here. Its just an act. I wish you'd post with a real character so people could judge you on past deeds and actions and your bias (or lack therein) could be seen. As is its a bit pointless.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:01:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 19:03:09
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I simply don't believe you I'm afraid. I find your use of an alt speaks the direct opposite - my past experience of these forums teaches me that people use alts to troll and flame and stir trouble - never to advocate issues for the good of the game. Perhaps come back with your main and lets talk.
I'm afraid your half-vast experience with the forums is leading you atray. I have never posted with my main in 5 years. I have always posted with various alts, and I post on a wide range of subjects about the game, just as passionately as I'm posting here. Go look at what I have to say about 0.0 sov, for example.
I don't post with my main because 13 year olds (actual or intellectual) have a difficult time distinguishing between talking ABOUT the game, and playing the game. I don't need to be n00bPwnzor!!11!'s, in game enemy for life because he got butt-hurt over something I said on the forums.
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Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:04:00 -
[33]
I have no idea why the militias cant get together and have a spokesman for the Militia to present a clear proposal.
You guys have been given great advice in the other threads to work together to defend each other. Has that happened..no. Why is a mystery. Everyone is so focused on what they perceive is broken rather than using the current mechanics to their own advantage. I guess its easier to whine than actually figuring out how to make your situation better.
Each militia has a website. On that website you should be putting together a rep from each militia. Each rep should work with each rep in opposing militias. From there you can make your voice heard rather than throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticks.
If you want the mechanics of an Alliance, you need to start acting like one. Because right now you are just acting like a bunch of corps and individuals that can come and go as you like with no worries or any large commitment. Kind of like a Militia. How about that.
Here we are and not one of the folks fighting for the FW has supported the OP. Not one. No thumb, nothing. That is because you have no communication with each other. All we hearing is a bunch of individual alts flailing around with separate and individual point of views.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't.
I can't know you because you are hiding your identity behind a posting alt. Hence I can't judge your past commitment or posting record, I can't know your in-game history, I can't tell if you are serious or just trolling continually to derail threads. You are pretty much the perfect illustration of why posting with alts is destroying debate on these forums.
You can't be insulted really because you don't have an identity here. Its just an act. I wish you'd post with a real character so people could judge you on past deeds and actions and your bias (or lack therein) could be seen. As is its a bit pointless.
I've posted with my main, but if this was a true debate where discussions could only be left here and not carried into the game itself, then I'd be more than happy. If you are NOT taking my post or any alts post seriously, then you really need to step out of your CSM chair and figure things out for yourself. There's absolutely NO need for my main or anyone else's to have to post here to make YOU feel better.
Truth is... I've played over 5 years... longer than you... I've been through every patch, every nerf, I've done the pirate, I've done the carebear, I've done it all. I'm trained in a wide variety of skills to do just about anything this game can offer. I've been in several alliances, I've been out in 0.0... I've ran POS, I've FC'd, I've scouted, I've done large fleets, nano fleets, POS warfare... yada, yada, yada... I may not be a popular name among Eve, but I've done probably far more than you have ever done. Period.
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:25:24
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
I'm afraid your half-vast experience with the forums is leading you atray. I have never posted with my main in 5 years. I have always posted with various alts, and I post on a wide range of subjects about the game, just as passionately as I'm posting here. Go look at what I have to say about 0.0 sov, for example.
And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you? Your posting on this particular alt has been abrasive and rude, you've been unwilling to see other people's points and dogmatically stated the same old disproved theories with nothing but growing irritation to mark your participation in the topic. You are pretty much soapboxing with nothing but your own voice and a couple of other alts to back you up? (are those yours as well? who knows) Any which way its simply not very persuasive.
I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view. Instead you currently don't have one. I'd suggest you begin posting with your main now and begin the task of gaining the credibility you need to take the kind of positions you have been taking.
Anyways, its your choice end of the day.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Truth is... I've played over 5 years... longer than you... I've been through every patch, every nerf, I've done the pirate, I've done the carebear, I've done it all. I'm trained in a wide variety of skills to do just about anything this game can offer. I've been in several alliances, I've been out in 0.0... I've ran POS, I've FC'd, I've scouted, I've done large fleets, nano fleets, POS warfare... yada, yada, yada... I may not be a popular name among Eve, but I've done probably far more than you have ever done. Period.
But again, because you are hiding behind an alt identity why should anybody believe you? I can put on a party mask and claim to be the king of Siam but without the retinue and bank account sureties its just words. See the problem, you could be anyone - even the other alts in this thread. So all your claims of experience and game knowledge are ultimately just beyond proof or recognition. All I've see of you is this alt and all this alt has done is post ill-informed opinions and boasted how good a troll you are.
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
.....
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
Aren't you supposed to be representing the community rather than judging the community? Hell, even I am an alt. Why don't you have a go at me? 
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:40:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:44:43
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Aren't you supposed to be representing the community rather than judging the community? Hell, even I am an alt. Why don't you have a go at me?
I'll save that till your next election campaign.
But on topic, if you feel that we should be taking alts seriously when they claim to have 5 years of experience in every aspect of the game and then post stuff showing they have no clear understanding of Eve or the mechanics they are talking about then I disagree. I reserve my right (which is common to any other Eve player) to disregard their input as invalid and unhelpful - Eve as single server game with persistent identity for characters gives us the ability to earn and stand on our reputations. I don't respect people who are afraid of their reputations and choose to hide them behind alts.
And so yep I don't like or trust opinions hidden behind alt identities - sorry if this offends your sensibilities but there it is and yep - come next election I won't be voting for you for many reasons but up there amongst them is the fact that you are an alt and didn't have the guts to run with your main identity.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
But again, because you are hiding behind an alt identity why should anybody believe you? I can put on a party mask and claim to be the king of Siam but without the retinue and bank account sureties its just words. See the problem, you could be anyone - even the other alts in this thread. So all your claims of experience and game knowledge are ultimately just beyond proof or recognition. All I've see of you is this alt and all this alt has done is post ill-informed opinions and boasted how good a troll you are.
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
I don't have to convince you who I am. I don't have to appeal to you in any way. You can believe me or not, just like you could be a noob who bought a character online. You could be Samuel L Jackson playing this game and I'd give two shits to you. I could expose my main, and yet that still wouldn't prove anything to you. Cuz there's nothing I need to prove to you. I'm sensing you personally feel lesser than me, wishing I didn't actually go thru more than you in this game, because then you'd really have no value.
Truth is, you're just a vocal muppet leader. I've done far more and have experienced far more than you ever have. I've seen this game for everyone since day one... I've dealt with the bad, and admire the good... but one thing I do know is where there is an obvious flaw that promotes abuse and gives advantages to those looking to exploit. You my friend, fall right into that category.
Now if you want to get back on topic about FW, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you... but if you still wish to continue to pop your chest thinking you know all, then be my guest.
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between:
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced.
We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem.
I am with Jade on this one if you do not like getting wardeced then y are you in factional warfare?
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
I've done far more and have experienced far more than you ever have. I've seen this game for everyone since day one... I've dealt with the bad, and admire the good...
Run for election with your main then. Thats my advise. Lets see how you do - if you are so much better than me you should be able to win the Chair position easily.
With regard to this thread its a defunct argument. Its gone round a couple of hundred times already with the same result. No support.
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:10:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
You wouldn't know me if I was!  ... and wouldn't that be the biggest ironic turn-around slap in the face best thing ever IF YOU VOTED FOR ME!
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
You wouldn't know me if I was! ... and wouldn't that be the biggest ironic turn-around slap in the face best thing ever IF YOU VOTED FOR ME!
I can assure you thats very unlikely :)
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:40:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 20:41:58
Originally by: Jade Constantine
And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you?
I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I have pointed out the salient points of the argument here, most of which you've simply and conveniently chosen to ignore. Not only have you not "disproven" most of my arguments, you haven't even addressed them. I'll restate them for you so that you can have another opportunity:
The devs explicity stated that they did not want existing player alliance participation in FW combat at this time. You are side-stepping their intent by exploiting the game mechanics. Yes, or no?
Players who choose to participate in FW combat through war-decs, rather than joining the militia, enjoy two imbalanced advantages compared to corporations who join the militias and engage in FW as the devs intended. They are immune from attack by most of the opposing faction, and they can attack unhindered in enemy high-sec space, which was clearly not tne dev's intent when they created FW mechanics. Yes, or no?
Corps who choose to participate in FW through war-decs, rather than as the devs intended, can have a disporportionate influence on FW fleet fights, because they are not valid war targets to part of the enemy fleet. Yes, or no?
It is more advantageous for a corp, or several corps, who want to influence the direction of FW to war dec individual corps in the militias, rather than taking on the militia (and the faction navy). Yes, or no?
Given that, there is every reason not to join the militia if you are a corporation and want to influence FW. Clearly not what the devs intended.
My assertion is that if you want to participate in FW, you should be subject to the same mechanics as everyone else who is participating in FW. You should not be able to expoit the game mechanics to your advantage, and by doing so gain a disporportionate influence on the outcome. You should not be exempt from the limitations and risks borne by corps that join the militia and participate as the devs intended. Do you agree with that, or not?
Quote:
I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view.
I appreciate your feedback. In my opinion, if my points of view don't stand on their own, they don't deserve any consideration, and neither do yours, fancy icon under your name notwithstanding.
Feel free to answer this post, or not. I'm just spelling out what I think for the benefit of those reading along. I'm sure you'll disagree, which is fine.
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Nemesor
Gallente
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 23:55:00 -
[45]
The disadvantages of being wardecced by a non-FW entity while you are in a FW faction can be countered by several existing mechanics.
1) Speak to other corps in your faction and counter war-dec said group.
2) Have your faction mates blow them up in low sec the old fashioned way.
3) Hire mercs against them.
I don't see the Caldari State (or any other faction) taking an interest in one groups political strife and making it its own.
Not supported.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:03:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Nemesor
The disadvantages of being wardecced by a non-FW entity while you are in a FW faction can be countered by several existing mechanics.
1) Speak to other corps in your faction and counter war-dec said group.
2) Have your faction mates blow them up in low sec the old fashioned way.
3) Hire mercs against them.
I don't see the Caldari State (or any other faction) taking an interest in one groups political strife and making it its own.
Not supported.
Easiest thing for them to do will be to abandon FW and pretend like it doesn't exist, and they will. If CCP isn't going to support it, no reason they should either.
My prediction, though, is that it's going to backfire. As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch on, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
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Nemesor
Gallente
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:16:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Nemesor on 29/08/2008 00:16:42
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 29/08/2008 00:06:28
Easiest thing for them to do will be to abandon FW and pretend like it doesn't exist, and they will. If CCP isn't going to support it, no reason they should either.
My prediction, though, is that it's going to backfire on the wise-guys if CCP doesn't fix it. As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch onto how easy it is to grief FW fleets with this little tactic, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
If they drop out then they were never really dedicated to the cause anyway.
If they can't organize themselves enough to combat a common foe, thats their problem.
If you don't think pirates and other assorted "bad people" haven't noticed then you are mistaken. (Generally FW people are not worth their time. T1 ships and fittings have a poor profit margin)
If you need CCP to help shield you by changing game mechanics because you cannot organize a defense, perhaps Hello Kitty Online is more your cup of tea.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:23:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/08/2008 00:24:36
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch onto how easy it is to grief FW fleets with this little tactic, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
The irony is of course that its mostly goon-alts currently complaining about being wardecced in Caldari militia corps in all these threads. But then I imagine you already knew that didn't you? 
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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SOFcode Z777
Caldari
Human Enhancement Tech.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 01:49:00 -
[49]
Getting tiresome... 
Yes I'm an alt too...
Just play the damn game people...
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Rad Ion
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Posted - 2008.08.29 04:41:00 -
[50]
Speaking as someone who joined the FW as an individual and not as part of a player corp..i can truly say i did it because it was cool.until i saw the lengths of which people will go to exploit the mechanics.it cant be helped..Even amongst well respected corps i have flown with in the past..i saw all sorts of exploitation..purposefull exploits of lag outside war decking you name it..but i saw it from the perspective everyone seems to be overlooking..the individual player.BTW that character has been deleted..so dont harp on me for not posting with it LOL.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The irony is of course that its mostly goon-alts currently complaining about being wardecced in Caldari militia corps in all these threads. But then I imagine you already knew that didn't you?
Wow... the CHAIR is making wide assumption now... that's a big broad brush you're painting people with. Reason #34 as to why you're a horrible CSM. Maybe you're just anti-Goon, is that the real reason behind your tactics? Ahhh, the voice for all of Eve DOES have a personal agenda. You're bringing in personal feelings about alliances, corps, players, and alts to a board where you have failed to be open minded and represent ALL of Eve.
Golly. |
Lucian Arhys
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:47:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Lucian Arhys on 29/08/2008 15:50:11
This is kind of a non issue because it embodies the very essence of eve. It's players that are side stepping what was intended. When in truth it was intended all along. EvE is a game designed to give creative players the freedom to be creative. Why shouldn't a corp or alliance that believes in the cause of FW or wants to hurt another FW militia not be allowed to wardec whomever they want. Will destroying that 1 corp somehow harm the entire militia and make it ineffective? Unless the large majority of FW corps become wardec'd by third party corps and alliances to the point that joining the FW as a corp just makes you a big target for a wardec based solely on that fact it remains a non issue. This is EvE no one is safe.... High Sec is really just 'safer' sec and low sec is all about who can tank the gate guns to gank you.
Edit: fixed safe sec to safer sec course it should be suicide gank sec but ya know :P
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Vladina Krematoria
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:58:00 -
[53]
well it seems to me that if you are realy interested excited passionate about FW and simply dont want to get caught up in the politics,war decs etc. join as an individual directly into the militia...its that simple imho.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.30 00:17:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Vladina Krematoria
well it seems to me that if you are realy interested excited passionate about FW and simply dont want to get caught up in the politics,war decs etc. join as an individual directly into the militia...its that simple imho.
Yeah, that is the simple answer, but clearly not what the devs had in mind, or they would have just let alliances in from the git-go. I think it's a shame we have a CSM member promoting side-stepping their intent, but, there you go. We'll just have to see if they do anything about it, or not.
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Jay Marshall
Walks Forever Trade Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.30 23:24:00 -
[55]
Why should Jade want the way its done changed?
After all, her/his entire Alliance is war-deccing all corps that are joining the Caldari Militia pretty much at this point, thus influencing the FW in favour the Caldari Militia's enemies.
I agree that something needs to be done. How about this.
1/ Give the corps that join a FW Militia a non-war-dec status, like NPC corps get. This way while your corp is involved as part of the FW Militia you can't be war-decced by non FW Militia corps and you are also not able to war-dec any corp that isn't part of a FW Militia.
2/ If your corp has open war-decs on them when they try to join, they have to be settled prior to joining (either by surrendering or what ever) before the corp can join a FW Militia.
3/ If your corp leaves the FW Milita any current War-decs are automatically cancelled.
This would protect FW corps from massive alliances war-decing them just because they are annoyed they can't join the FW on mass as an alliance. If the alliance wants to war-dec FW Corps, then they have to split up, join FW Militias of thier choice and play on a level playing field, just like everyone else.
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CEO
Walks Forever Trade Inc
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Shaikar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.31 15:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
I don't see any reason why FW corps should be treated differently than independant corps. What makes a corp enlisted in the militia -- and therefore likely to be a PvP corp based in lowsec and surrounded by allies who could choose to come to their defense -- less able to fend for themselves than a independant non-PvP corp that is completely on their own?
I wouldn't mind seeing some revision of the wardec system, with changes designed to prevent out-and-out, endless, griefing. But I can't see the logic in giving special treatment to FW corps.
I know what you are saying and I think I agree with avoiding what you want to avoid. However, under the current rules FW corps are already being treated differently from normal corps - eg they can't be in an alliance whilst in the militia but the militia doesn't function like an alliance for wardecs. So given that FW corps are already treated in a special way I'm not sure saying they shouldn't be for further proposed changes holds much water.
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2008.09.06 11:08:00 -
[57]
I support OFC.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.07 10:35:00 -
[58]
Sadly Jade is correct. As annoying as it is (to have corps singled out of fleets), the fact remains that changing it would open it up to wardec avoidance. A corporation would be able to dodge a wardec by moving/reforming in FW and still remain intact. That is unacceptable as it would prevent corporations being destroyed/disbanded, which is an important mechanic in EVE's player run economy.
If a corporation in FW was completely unable to affect the market in any (something which would likely be impossible) then you could do it.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.09.08 04:47:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 08/09/2008 04:53:32
After looking into this a bit more it's not as big an issue as I thought it was. I think the factions that are getting back-door alliance help are truly deserving of the charity, and frankly, it isn't helping much.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.09.08 10:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 08/09/2008 10:26:08
the only thing here i would like to change is to have alliances be able to join FW as long as they are not space holding.
i do think its a bit lame that the rest off the "allaince" (read milita) cant help, but on the other hand there needs to be a system for newbs to play pvp and if you dont want wardecing, dont join a player corp.
Basically i dont think the system is brilliant (with regards to FW) but on the same note i do NOT support wartering down of wardec mechanics.
Dark Materials
Linkage
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