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Innsu
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.27 18:18:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Innsu on 27/08/2008 18:34:02
Edited by: Innsu on 27/08/2008 18:19:06
CAn't see any other thread . .. .
Any corp declaring war on a Factional Warfare Player corporation, should at the least be set upon by the faction it has in fact also declared war on
This would eliminate player corps leaving factions
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.08.27 19:16:00 -
[2]
not signed.
no special treatment for fw corps.
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Lone Gunman
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Posted - 2008.08.27 20:42:00 -
[3]
This ones only been going on for a week.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=831365
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.27 23:07:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 27/08/2008 23:09:13
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 27/08/2008 23:08:02
It would also do what the devs said they didn't want to do, namely, let established player alliances dominate and determine the outcome of FW.
Of course, the dev's intent means squat, obviously, because you have CSM members blatently side-stepping it.
Way I see it, the devs are going to have to do one of two things:
They'll either have to cave and allow alliances into FW, in which case FW will become 0.0 Jr and the same power players will control it, or they'll have to exempt player corps involved in FW from being war targets to anyone other than others engaged in FW.
The first option would pretty much kill FW, tbh. It would quickly escalate into uber-blob cap fights and no longer be an alternative to 0.0 warfare. It'd just be more of the same.
The second option would be unfortunate, but maybe unavoidable if the devs wish their original vision for FW as an alternative to 0.0 warfare to stand. People, it seems, just can't keep their hands out of the cookie jar.
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.08.28 01:28:00 -
[5]
I don't see any reason why FW corps should be treated differently than independant corps. What makes a corp enlisted in the militia -- and therefore likely to be a PvP corp based in lowsec and surrounded by allies who could choose to come to their defense -- less able to fend for themselves than a independant non-PvP corp that is completely on their own?
I wouldn't mind seeing some revision of the wardec system, with changes designed to prevent out-and-out, endless, griefing. But I can't see the logic in giving special treatment to FW corps.
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Becq Starforged
Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 04:27:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Becq Starforged
I don't see any reason why FW corps should be treated differently than independant corps. What makes a corp enlisted in the militia -- and therefore likely to be a PvP corp based in lowsec and surrounded by allies who could choose to come to their defense -- less able to fend for themselves than a independant non-PvP corp that is completely on their own?
Ok, I'll bite, and give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't really understand the implications. Why would a corp (especially one who belongs to existing player alliance) want to sign up for FW when they can just war-dec one of the major corps that is engaged in FW? In case you have a hard time figuring it out, doing the latter allows them to carry the fight into enemy high-sec space without interference from that faction's Navy, thus completely side-stepping the mechanics of FW while working to influence the outcome of it.
So, short answer to your question is that they may need to do it to protect the integrity of FW, even though, yes, the side effect of it would suck. That's what happens when you have wise-guys in the game who lay awake at night trying to think of ways around things.
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Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Ok, I'll bite, and give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't really understand the implications. Why would a corp (especially one who belongs to existing player alliance) want to sign up for FW when they can just war-dec one of the major corps that is engaged in FW? In case you have a hard time figuring it out, doing the latter allows them to carry the fight into enemy high-sec space without interference from that faction's Navy, thus completely side-stepping the mechanics of FW while working to influence the outcome of it.
So, short answer to your question is that they may need to do it to protect the integrity of FW, even though, yes, the side effect of it would suck. That's what happens when you have wise-guys in the game who lay awake at night trying to think of ways around things.
I do not claim to know all of the people enlisted in FW or all of the corps/alliances who have wardec'd those corps.
That said, all of the alliances I do know of that have wardec'd FW corps are roleplaying alliances (example, Electus Matari). I, for one, would not be willing to disband my alliance, that cost me a billion ISK to create, just to play FW. So, if I were in their position, I'd wardec the corporations on the other side as well.
Also, not everybody who wardecs an FW corp gives a damn about FW - I for one wouldn't look to see if someone was in FW or not before I wardec'd them. If I have a reason to dec, I'm gonna dec.
Part of being in a corporation is the risk of wars. Wars inconvenience you, even in highsec (which is safer, not safe - they haven't completely nerfed risk out of the game yet). A corp that willingly jumps into FW doesn't need to consider the possible risk of wardecs.. they should've considered it when they made or joined a player corp to begin with.
Originally by: CCP Explorer
You can still steal their stuff.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 13:24:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 13:27:32
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 13:25:16
Originally by: Havohej
I do not claim to know all of the people enlisted in FW or all of the corps/alliances who have wardec'd those corps.
That said, all of the alliances I do know of that have wardec'd FW corps are roleplaying alliances (example, Electus Matari). I, for one, would not be willing to disband my alliance, that cost me a billion ISK to create, just to play FW. So, if I were in their position, I'd wardec the corporations on the other side as well.
Also, not everybody who wardecs an FW corp gives a damn about FW - I for one wouldn't look to see if someone was in FW or not before I wardec'd them. If I have a reason to dec, I'm gonna dec.
Part of being in a corporation is the risk of wars. Wars inconvenience you, even in highsec (which is safer, not safe - they haven't completely nerfed risk out of the game yet). A corp that willingly jumps into FW doesn't need to consider the possible risk of wardecs.. they should've considered it when they made or joined a player corp to begin with.
You do not have to disband an alliance to participate in FW. Corps within the alliance can leave (temporarily) and participate. Individuals can leave (temporarily) and participate, but they should do so under the same set of mechanics that everyone else participating in FW must abide by. Doing so makes perfect sense from a RP point of view. Why are you going to squabble out on the frontier when your core empire is under attack? Of course you're going to go enlist and help your empire's fleet.
No, not everyone who war-decs a FW corp is trying to participate in FW without joining it, but some people are, and they have said so on these forums. Unfortunately, the devs have no way to tell them apart.
The devs do not want existing alliances determining the outcome of FW. That is why they excluded them. If people can't abide by that, and side-step it, the devs need to plug that hole somehow to protect the integrity of FW, otherwise, FW becomes pointless and dies.
If they don't just make FW corps immune from outside war-decs, the less intrusive step would be to treat corps that war-dec militia members just as if they were in the militia (i.e. they would get attacked by the opposing navy in enemy high-sec space). This would, in effect, be letting alliances into FW, which the devs said they didn't want to do, but it would at least be a step in the right direction.
Do you have a better solution?
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Do you have a better solution?
Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between:
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced.
We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Do you have a better solution?
Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between:
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced.
We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem.
Would the war mechanics be broken if my alliance could simply declare war on ONE corp of another alliance... thus in return that alliance could not help out that ONE corp?
oh, and lets not forget in FW you also get safe space and no npc navies. WOW.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:50:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Would the war mechanics be broken if my alliance could simply declare war on ONE corp of another alliance... thus in return that alliance could not help out that ONE corp?
As you have been told about 1001 times in half as many threads.
FW Militias are NOT alliances.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Do you have a better solution?
Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between:
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced.
We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem.
Come on. I know you aren't that dumb.
Fleet battle between faction A (30 man fleet) and Faction B (30 man fleet). Here comes 10 ships from Gr33f4lulz corporation, who has sided with Faction A. and war-decced one of the 4 corporations in Faction B's fleet. So, 6 of the ships in Faction B's fleet are valid war targets for Gr33f4lulz, and the other 24 ships in the fleet can't even assist them without incurring a sec status hit.
Faction A wins, Gr33f4lulz... well... lulz, and Faction B says "this is bullshit, to hell with FW".
Mind explaining to me how that isn't a BS abuse of the game mechanics that compromises the dev's vision for FW?
You're right, there is no problem, as long as you don't give a flying F at a rolling doughnut whether FW succeeds as a game mechanic or not.
For someone who was elected to advocate for the good of the game, you sure don't seem to be.... you know... advocating for the good of the game.
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Innsu
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:51:00 -
[13]
Ok 50 man miltia fleet, 1 poor sod in a war dec corp, gets taken out while the rest of the fleet are helpless and cant help him. That is wrong !
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Would the war mechanics be broken if my alliance could simply declare war on ONE corp of another alliance... thus in return that alliance could not help out that ONE corp?
As you have been told about 1001 times in half as many threads.
FW Militias are NOT alliances.
yea, but the same mechanic would be wrong in one circumstance, and not the other? why is that? FW militias are NOT alliances... that's pretty much agreeable, same as Caldari is NOT Gallente... but yet they undergo the same mechanics. I just don't understand. Why?
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:53:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Innsu
Ok 50 man miltia fleet, 1 poor sod in a war dec corp, gets taken out while the rest of the fleet are helpless and cant help him. That is wrong !
Its absolutely right.
If you are in the NPC militia corp you have no right to fire without concord intervention on a player corp in empire outside the militia. You are protected by the npc corp membership - price of that protection is impotence in the situation you describe. If you consider that price is too high then join a player corp and do something about it.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Innsu
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.28 17:57:00 -
[16]
Ok, i understand that, though player corps are directly war dec'ing FW player corps to swing the tide of the war . . .
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 18:02:53
Originally by: Innsu
Ok, i understand that, though player corps are directly war dec'ing FW player corps to swing the tide of the war . . .
Yep and thats entirely how its supposed to work. Both sides could hire mercenaries to strike at the other from the respective hisec (as is happening) and 3rd parties could involve themselves for whatever reasons they choose. And of course since Militias are not Alliances any corporation or alliance could still have valid reason to target a corporation affiliated with a Militia for personal reasons. You can't alter that without breaking eve and making the militia a haven for wardec avoidance exploit.
The answers to the fake "problem" discussed in the op are already on offer.
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
All the tools are already in place and Militia affiliation should in nowise give additional protection against wardecs to individual corps.
FW does have problems (that we've already helped to point out). But this isn't one of them.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 18:06:50
Originally by: Innsu
Edited by: Innsu on 28/08/2008 17:59:43
Ok, i understand that, though player corps are directly war dec'ing FW player corps to swing the tide of the war . . .
It just seems to me that FW player corps are leaving because of this reason :)
She's just playing dumb. Players engaged in FW should all be subject to the same mechanics. There is no reason for a corp to join the militia if it puts them at a structural disadvantage. She gets that. She's not stupid. She just wants to "win".
Unless something is done, the official militias will dwindle down to the NPC corps unless they have player alliance patrons to protect them. It's not what the devs had in mind, and she knows it.
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Innsu
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:05:00 -
[19]
Ok Jade, i see what your getting at :)ive only been doing in 10 days or something, lets see how it pans out 
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 18:11:38
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The answers to the fake "problem" discussed in the op are already on offer.
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
All the tools are already in place and Militia affiliation should in nowise give additional protection against wardecs to individual corps.
FW does have problems (that we've already helped to point out). But this isn't one of them.
A total crock of shit. Why should the "merc corps" have unequal protection from the bulk of the opposing militia, not to mention the faction navy, if they choose to get involved?
Jade, the only ones who can't see that you're just trying to protect your little "angle" are a few newbs, and you. Stop playing us for stupid.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Innsu
Ok Jade, i see what your getting at :)ive only been doing in 10 days or something, lets see how it pans out
Nice to see somebody open to reasoned debate to be honest. Thanks for that. As for the long term - I think FW will be fine, but what needs to happen is the rollout of additional rewards for militia members (corps and individuals) that give them reason to be in the firing line for more than just medals. Some nice loyalty point stores, special mods and ships and such. Basically a reason to fight. If there is an incentive to stay in and handle adversity we'll see a better response to the challenge of the environment and more robust way of facing up to wardecs.
At the moment you have a weird situation where people can just skip to the npc militia for near complete protection and the corps do have problems against wardecs because a) they don't want to fight, b) nobody will help them fight, and c) there isn't a fiscal motive for them remaining in the militia anyways. This tends to lead to collapse and running away and dissolution in adversity and snowballs because the former members of defeated corps join other corps with a litany of defeatist carping and spread poor morale like a psychic plague.
I think the solution is make being a corp in the militia more profitable - make the missions and plexing more rewarding - make it something worth fighting to retain access too. I think corp members in the militias should get more loyalty points than npc militia members since they are more vulnerable. Something like that. Give people a reason to fight and fight hard and the game benefits.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:21:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 18:24:07
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 18:22:04
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Post constructively. ~Saint
Ooo.. excuse me. I'll post constructively.
There is no reason for corporations to join the militias if doing so just puts them at a disadvantage in the part of the game that they're trying to participate in. Why would they do so, and be a valid war target for the entire opposing militia, and be hindered in the opposing militia's high-sec space, when they can simply war-dec one corp in the opposing milita and be immune from both?
This is clearly not the dev's vision for FW. Their vision is being contravened by s few wise-guys in the game who think they're brilliant and that everyone else, including the devs, aren't. What are the devs going to do about it?
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Innsu
Ok Jade, i see what your getting at :)ive only been doing in 10 days or something, lets see how it pans out
Nice to see somebody open to reasoned debate to be honest.
In other words, Jade Online finally has someone AGREEING with him... it would be nice if you Jade were in fact "open to reasoned debate".... but the truth is, you have a selfish opinion, and you have never been open to anything that doesn't fit your personal agenda.
Why shouldn't my tiny corp be able to dec an alliance corp and have that "outside influence" you like so much? It's obvious there are broken mechanisms currently in Eve's faction wars and general wars. Until you can open your eyes to an obvious flaw and start to propose a real deabte (not just your rants) then maybe we can all actually get somewhere.
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Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
There is no reason for corporations to join the militias if doing so just puts them at a disadvantage in the part of the game that they're trying to participate in. Why would they do so, and be a valid war target for the entire opposing militia, and be hindered in the opposing militia's high-sec space, when they can simply war-dec one corp in the opposing milita and be immune from both?
Just because you cannot see the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. Why are Outbreak involved in the Minmatar militia as a corp? They don't seem to be having these "problems". Why are Dead Parrots involved in the Gallente miltiia as a corp? They seem to be doing pretty well. Why are Slackers involved in the Amarrian militia as a corp - you get the idea. Corporations join militias for the benefits of being corporations (corp hangers/corp assets/wallets/corp channels and command and control) and what they get for joining as a corp is access to the FW militia content (medals/rewards/war-room etc) and free wardecs vs the enemy militia and all associated corps. Their vulnerability is the ordinary vulnerability they have outside the militia association to empire wardecs.
It costs ISK to wardec individual corps from outside the militia - that is the disadvantage of doing it that way. Eve is about choices and variety - there are many ways to prosecute a war and its your choice as to how you go about it.
Quote:
This is clearly not the dev's vision for FW. Their vision is being contravened by s few wise-guys in the game who think they're brilliant and that everyone else, including the devs, aren't. What are the devs going to do about it?
I think you are overstating a personal issue that annoys you because you are from a corporation that probably can't handle the demands of faction warfare on the corp level. Its clearly not an issue for other corps (outbreak, parrots, slackers and many many others) so its wrong for you to state this false problem like a universal truth. Its also wrong for you to attempt to speak on behalf of other player's motives - you don't understand them, you have no neccessary insight so I'd ask you to avoid such speculations because they don't help the discussion or the general mood of constructive debate.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Innsu
Ok Jade, i see what your getting at :)ive only been doing in 10 days or something, lets see how it pans out
.... irrelevant stuff...
If empire corps are looking for profit they'll keep running L4s.
The reason corps join FW is to compete, and win, against other players, not collect loyalty points. As long as you have corps that can influence the outcome without subjecting themselves to the same ristrictions and risks as the milita corps. There is no reason to join the militia. It just gimps you. It's broken. Right, or wrong?
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:41:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 18:43:09
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
If empire corps are looking for profit they'll keep running L4s.
The reason corps join FW is to compete, and win, against other players, not collect loyalty points. As long as you have corps that can influence the outcome without subjecting themselves to the same ristrictions and risks as the milita corps. There is no reason to join the militia. It just gimps you. It's broken. Right, or wrong?
You are wrong. Mainly because you have no perspective or right to tell us why other corps join FW. You don't know is the simple truth. You know why your main's corp did (I suspect) but you simply cannot know why other players make that choice. Everyone does things for different reasons and generalizations like the one you use above doesn't help in slightest. I sense you are frustrated most likely with the performance of your main character's corp in the FW setting (which is probably why you choose to use an alt to continue this discussion to protect the main's identity) and you're probably just passing on that frustration to this debate but its not really helping. All thats evident is the frustration and not the logic or understanding of the situation.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Just because you cannot see the reason doesn't mean there isn't one. Why are Outbreak involved in the Minmatar militia as a corp? They don't seem to be having these "problems". Why are Dead Parrots involved in the Gallente miltiia as a corp? They seem to be doing pretty well. Why are Slackers involved in the Amarrian militia as a corp - you get the idea.
Which RP alliance fights for the Caldari? Which Caldari corp did you mention above. The only thing annoying me here is that you're playing me for stupid. If you want to have a "reasoned debate" stop.
Quote:
It costs ISK to wardec individual corps from outside the militia - that is the disadvantage of doing it that way. Eve is about choices and variety - there are many ways to prosecute a war and its your choice as to how you go about it.
Not relevant. The stated intent of the devs was to exclude, at least for now, player alliances from determining the course of FW. Are you side-stepping that, or not?
Quote:
I think you are overstating a personal issue that annoys you because you are from a corporation that probably can't handle...
You need to ask for a refund from whomever sold you that crystal ball. I come from a corporation that doesn't give a damn about FW. I'm advocating for the good of the game, which you should be doing, but are not.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
You are wrong. Mainly because you have no perspective or right to tell us why other corps join FW.
WTF?? Uhhh... yeah, I'm sure they joined for the cool insignias. You need to start making at least a little bit of sense here. The entire proposition of FW was to fight for your faction. It was never held out as a way to get rich, and nobody in their right mind joined it with the idea of doing so, except maybe a few ninja looters and pirates.
You're doing that playing me for stupid thing again. I don't appreciate it.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
I come from a corporation that doesn't give a damn about FW. I'm advocating for the good of the game, which you should be doing, but are not.
I simply don't believe you I'm afraid. I find your use of an alt speaks the direct opposite - my past experience of these forums teaches me that people use alts to troll and flame and stir trouble - never to advocate issues for the good of the game. Perhaps come back with your main and lets talk.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:53:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
You are wrong. Mainly because you have no perspective or right to tell us why other corps join FW.[/quote
Ummm... corps join FW, because they want to be in FW? I don't know, but I'm taking a big guess on that one! I mean, does it serve another purpose?
Quote:
I sense you are frustrated most likely with the performance of your main character's corp in the FW setting (which is probably why you choose to use an alt to continue this discussion to protect the main's identity) and you're probably just passing on that frustration to this debate but its not really helping.
Wait, its NOT okay for him to assume about other corps, yet its okay for you to assume his intentions? What are you? The most conceded person on this planet? I just don't understand you Jade... you write a ton of nice formatted properly written sentences, trying to come off like you are intelligent, but then... I'M SENSING... you are just frustrated with Eve and your chair position, because you can't be clear on your choices, and you can't derive clear explanations without sounding like an idiot and/or insulting someone else... whether its hidden behind big fancy words and spin tactics... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't.
Quote:
All thats evident is the frustration and not the logic or understanding of the situation.
That goes for yourself as well. Take your own words and evaluate them amongst your own face in the mirror.
Hope I wasn't too insulting, but I think Saint will eventually delete yet another post of mine. 
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 18:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't.
I can't know you because you are hiding your identity behind a posting alt. Hence I can't judge your past commitment or posting record, I can't know your in-game history, I can't tell if you are serious or just trolling continually to derail threads. You are pretty much the perfect illustration of why posting with alts is destroying debate on these forums.
You can't be insulted really because you don't have an identity here. Its just an act. I wish you'd post with a real character so people could judge you on past deeds and actions and your bias (or lack therein) could be seen. As is its a bit pointless.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:01:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 19:03:09
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I simply don't believe you I'm afraid. I find your use of an alt speaks the direct opposite - my past experience of these forums teaches me that people use alts to troll and flame and stir trouble - never to advocate issues for the good of the game. Perhaps come back with your main and lets talk.
I'm afraid your half-vast experience with the forums is leading you atray. I have never posted with my main in 5 years. I have always posted with various alts, and I post on a wide range of subjects about the game, just as passionately as I'm posting here. Go look at what I have to say about 0.0 sov, for example.
I don't post with my main because 13 year olds (actual or intellectual) have a difficult time distinguishing between talking ABOUT the game, and playing the game. I don't need to be n00bPwnzor!!11!'s, in game enemy for life because he got butt-hurt over something I said on the forums.
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Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:04:00 -
[33]
I have no idea why the militias cant get together and have a spokesman for the Militia to present a clear proposal.
You guys have been given great advice in the other threads to work together to defend each other. Has that happened..no. Why is a mystery. Everyone is so focused on what they perceive is broken rather than using the current mechanics to their own advantage. I guess its easier to whine than actually figuring out how to make your situation better.
Each militia has a website. On that website you should be putting together a rep from each militia. Each rep should work with each rep in opposing militias. From there you can make your voice heard rather than throwing shit on the wall and seeing what sticks.
If you want the mechanics of an Alliance, you need to start acting like one. Because right now you are just acting like a bunch of corps and individuals that can come and go as you like with no worries or any large commitment. Kind of like a Militia. How about that.
Here we are and not one of the folks fighting for the FW has supported the OP. Not one. No thumb, nothing. That is because you have no communication with each other. All we hearing is a bunch of individual alts flailing around with separate and individual point of views.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
... its still insulting to hear you speak about others like you know all. You don't.
I can't know you because you are hiding your identity behind a posting alt. Hence I can't judge your past commitment or posting record, I can't know your in-game history, I can't tell if you are serious or just trolling continually to derail threads. You are pretty much the perfect illustration of why posting with alts is destroying debate on these forums.
You can't be insulted really because you don't have an identity here. Its just an act. I wish you'd post with a real character so people could judge you on past deeds and actions and your bias (or lack therein) could be seen. As is its a bit pointless.
I've posted with my main, but if this was a true debate where discussions could only be left here and not carried into the game itself, then I'd be more than happy. If you are NOT taking my post or any alts post seriously, then you really need to step out of your CSM chair and figure things out for yourself. There's absolutely NO need for my main or anyone else's to have to post here to make YOU feel better.
Truth is... I've played over 5 years... longer than you... I've been through every patch, every nerf, I've done the pirate, I've done the carebear, I've done it all. I'm trained in a wide variety of skills to do just about anything this game can offer. I've been in several alliances, I've been out in 0.0... I've ran POS, I've FC'd, I've scouted, I've done large fleets, nano fleets, POS warfare... yada, yada, yada... I may not be a popular name among Eve, but I've done probably far more than you have ever done. Period.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:25:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:25:24
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
I'm afraid your half-vast experience with the forums is leading you atray. I have never posted with my main in 5 years. I have always posted with various alts, and I post on a wide range of subjects about the game, just as passionately as I'm posting here. Go look at what I have to say about 0.0 sov, for example.
And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you? Your posting on this particular alt has been abrasive and rude, you've been unwilling to see other people's points and dogmatically stated the same old disproved theories with nothing but growing irritation to mark your participation in the topic. You are pretty much soapboxing with nothing but your own voice and a couple of other alts to back you up? (are those yours as well? who knows) Any which way its simply not very persuasive.
I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view. Instead you currently don't have one. I'd suggest you begin posting with your main now and begin the task of gaining the credibility you need to take the kind of positions you have been taking.
Anyways, its your choice end of the day.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Truth is... I've played over 5 years... longer than you... I've been through every patch, every nerf, I've done the pirate, I've done the carebear, I've done it all. I'm trained in a wide variety of skills to do just about anything this game can offer. I've been in several alliances, I've been out in 0.0... I've ran POS, I've FC'd, I've scouted, I've done large fleets, nano fleets, POS warfare... yada, yada, yada... I may not be a popular name among Eve, but I've done probably far more than you have ever done. Period.
But again, because you are hiding behind an alt identity why should anybody believe you? I can put on a party mask and claim to be the king of Siam but without the retinue and bank account sureties its just words. See the problem, you could be anyone - even the other alts in this thread. So all your claims of experience and game knowledge are ultimately just beyond proof or recognition. All I've see of you is this alt and all this alt has done is post ill-informed opinions and boasted how good a troll you are.
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
.....
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
Aren't you supposed to be representing the community rather than judging the community? Hell, even I am an alt. Why don't you have a go at me? 
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:40:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/08/2008 19:44:43
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Aren't you supposed to be representing the community rather than judging the community? Hell, even I am an alt. Why don't you have a go at me?
I'll save that till your next election campaign.
But on topic, if you feel that we should be taking alts seriously when they claim to have 5 years of experience in every aspect of the game and then post stuff showing they have no clear understanding of Eve or the mechanics they are talking about then I disagree. I reserve my right (which is common to any other Eve player) to disregard their input as invalid and unhelpful - Eve as single server game with persistent identity for characters gives us the ability to earn and stand on our reputations. I don't respect people who are afraid of their reputations and choose to hide them behind alts.
And so yep I don't like or trust opinions hidden behind alt identities - sorry if this offends your sensibilities but there it is and yep - come next election I won't be voting for you for many reasons but up there amongst them is the fact that you are an alt and didn't have the guts to run with your main identity.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
But again, because you are hiding behind an alt identity why should anybody believe you? I can put on a party mask and claim to be the king of Siam but without the retinue and bank account sureties its just words. See the problem, you could be anyone - even the other alts in this thread. So all your claims of experience and game knowledge are ultimately just beyond proof or recognition. All I've see of you is this alt and all this alt has done is post ill-informed opinions and boasted how good a troll you are.
That really doesn't convince people to take you seriously.
I don't have to convince you who I am. I don't have to appeal to you in any way. You can believe me or not, just like you could be a noob who bought a character online. You could be Samuel L Jackson playing this game and I'd give two shits to you. I could expose my main, and yet that still wouldn't prove anything to you. Cuz there's nothing I need to prove to you. I'm sensing you personally feel lesser than me, wishing I didn't actually go thru more than you in this game, because then you'd really have no value.
Truth is, you're just a vocal muppet leader. I've done far more and have experienced far more than you ever have. I've seen this game for everyone since day one... I've dealt with the bad, and admire the good... but one thing I do know is where there is an obvious flaw that promotes abuse and gives advantages to those looking to exploit. You my friend, fall right into that category.
Now if you want to get back on topic about FW, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you... but if you still wish to continue to pop your chest thinking you know all, then be my guest.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
TimGascoigne
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yep. Player corps faced with a wardec make a choice between:
A. Fight back.
B. Get help.
C. Run away.
D. Surrender.
And stop asking for the Eve wardec system to be broken in your favour because you have joined a "PVP" Faction "WAR" and have gotten (omg) wardecced.
We don't need a solution because there isn't a problem.
I am with Jade on this one if you do not like getting wardeced then y are you in factional warfare?
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 19:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
I've done far more and have experienced far more than you ever have. I've seen this game for everyone since day one... I've dealt with the bad, and admire the good...
Run for election with your main then. Thats my advise. Lets see how you do - if you are so much better than me you should be able to win the Chair position easily.
With regard to this thread its a defunct argument. Its gone round a couple of hundred times already with the same result. No support.
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:10:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
You wouldn't know me if I was!  ... and wouldn't that be the biggest ironic turn-around slap in the face best thing ever IF YOU VOTED FOR ME!
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pithecanthropus
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Anyways, hope to see you on the ballot sheet in September I guess.
You wouldn't know me if I was! ... and wouldn't that be the biggest ironic turn-around slap in the face best thing ever IF YOU VOTED FOR ME!
I can assure you thats very unlikely :)
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.28 20:40:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 28/08/2008 20:41:58
Originally by: Jade Constantine
And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you?
I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I have pointed out the salient points of the argument here, most of which you've simply and conveniently chosen to ignore. Not only have you not "disproven" most of my arguments, you haven't even addressed them. I'll restate them for you so that you can have another opportunity:
The devs explicity stated that they did not want existing player alliance participation in FW combat at this time. You are side-stepping their intent by exploiting the game mechanics. Yes, or no?
Players who choose to participate in FW combat through war-decs, rather than joining the militia, enjoy two imbalanced advantages compared to corporations who join the militias and engage in FW as the devs intended. They are immune from attack by most of the opposing faction, and they can attack unhindered in enemy high-sec space, which was clearly not tne dev's intent when they created FW mechanics. Yes, or no?
Corps who choose to participate in FW through war-decs, rather than as the devs intended, can have a disporportionate influence on FW fleet fights, because they are not valid war targets to part of the enemy fleet. Yes, or no?
It is more advantageous for a corp, or several corps, who want to influence the direction of FW to war dec individual corps in the militias, rather than taking on the militia (and the faction navy). Yes, or no?
Given that, there is every reason not to join the militia if you are a corporation and want to influence FW. Clearly not what the devs intended.
My assertion is that if you want to participate in FW, you should be subject to the same mechanics as everyone else who is participating in FW. You should not be able to expoit the game mechanics to your advantage, and by doing so gain a disporportionate influence on the outcome. You should not be exempt from the limitations and risks borne by corps that join the militia and participate as the devs intended. Do you agree with that, or not?
Quote:
I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view.
I appreciate your feedback. In my opinion, if my points of view don't stand on their own, they don't deserve any consideration, and neither do yours, fancy icon under your name notwithstanding.
Feel free to answer this post, or not. I'm just spelling out what I think for the benefit of those reading along. I'm sure you'll disagree, which is fine.
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Nemesor
Gallente
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.28 23:55:00 -
[45]
The disadvantages of being wardecced by a non-FW entity while you are in a FW faction can be countered by several existing mechanics.
1) Speak to other corps in your faction and counter war-dec said group.
2) Have your faction mates blow them up in low sec the old fashioned way.
3) Hire mercs against them.
I don't see the Caldari State (or any other faction) taking an interest in one groups political strife and making it its own.
Not supported.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:03:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Nemesor
The disadvantages of being wardecced by a non-FW entity while you are in a FW faction can be countered by several existing mechanics.
1) Speak to other corps in your faction and counter war-dec said group.
2) Have your faction mates blow them up in low sec the old fashioned way.
3) Hire mercs against them.
I don't see the Caldari State (or any other faction) taking an interest in one groups political strife and making it its own.
Not supported.
Easiest thing for them to do will be to abandon FW and pretend like it doesn't exist, and they will. If CCP isn't going to support it, no reason they should either.
My prediction, though, is that it's going to backfire. As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch on, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
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Nemesor
Gallente
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:16:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Nemesor on 29/08/2008 00:16:42
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 29/08/2008 00:06:28
Easiest thing for them to do will be to abandon FW and pretend like it doesn't exist, and they will. If CCP isn't going to support it, no reason they should either.
My prediction, though, is that it's going to backfire on the wise-guys if CCP doesn't fix it. As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch onto how easy it is to grief FW fleets with this little tactic, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
If they drop out then they were never really dedicated to the cause anyway.
If they can't organize themselves enough to combat a common foe, thats their problem.
If you don't think pirates and other assorted "bad people" haven't noticed then you are mistaken. (Generally FW people are not worth their time. T1 ships and fittings have a poor profit margin)
If you need CCP to help shield you by changing game mechanics because you cannot organize a defense, perhaps Hello Kitty Online is more your cup of tea.
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.08.29 00:23:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/08/2008 00:24:36
Originally by: Somealt Ofmine
As soon as pirate corps and Goon alts catch onto how easy it is to grief FW fleets with this little tactic, the real fun will start, and you may see the very same people who are supporting it now crying for their mommy.
The irony is of course that its mostly goon-alts currently complaining about being wardecced in Caldari militia corps in all these threads. But then I imagine you already knew that didn't you? 
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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SOFcode Z777
Caldari
Human Enhancement Tech.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 01:49:00 -
[49]
Getting tiresome...
Yes I'm an alt too...
Just play the damn game people...
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Rad Ion
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Posted - 2008.08.29 04:41:00 -
[50]
Speaking as someone who joined the FW as an individual and not as part of a player corp..i can truly say i did it because it was cool.until i saw the lengths of which people will go to exploit the mechanics.it cant be helped..Even amongst well respected corps i have flown with in the past..i saw all sorts of exploitation..purposefull exploits of lag outside war decking you name it..but i saw it from the perspective everyone seems to be overlooking..the individual player.BTW that character has been deleted..so dont harp on me for not posting with it LOL.
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
The irony is of course that its mostly goon-alts currently complaining about being wardecced in Caldari militia corps in all these threads. But then I imagine you already knew that didn't you?
Wow... the CHAIR is making wide assumption now... that's a big broad brush you're painting people with. Reason #34 as to why you're a horrible CSM. Maybe you're just anti-Goon, is that the real reason behind your tactics? Ahhh, the voice for all of Eve DOES have a personal agenda. You're bringing in personal feelings about alliances, corps, players, and alts to a board where you have failed to be open minded and represent ALL of Eve.
Golly. |
Lucian Arhys
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:47:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Lucian Arhys on 29/08/2008 15:50:11
This is kind of a non issue because it embodies the very essence of eve. It's players that are side stepping what was intended. When in truth it was intended all along. EvE is a game designed to give creative players the freedom to be creative. Why shouldn't a corp or alliance that believes in the cause of FW or wants to hurt another FW militia not be allowed to wardec whomever they want. Will destroying that 1 corp somehow harm the entire militia and make it ineffective? Unless the large majority of FW corps become wardec'd by third party corps and alliances to the point that joining the FW as a corp just makes you a big target for a wardec based solely on that fact it remains a non issue. This is EvE no one is safe.... High Sec is really just 'safer' sec and low sec is all about who can tank the gate guns to gank you.
Edit: fixed safe sec to safer sec course it should be suicide gank sec but ya know :P
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Vladina Krematoria
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:58:00 -
[53]
well it seems to me that if you are realy interested excited passionate about FW and simply dont want to get caught up in the politics,war decs etc. join as an individual directly into the militia...its that simple imho.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.08.30 00:17:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Vladina Krematoria
well it seems to me that if you are realy interested excited passionate about FW and simply dont want to get caught up in the politics,war decs etc. join as an individual directly into the militia...its that simple imho.
Yeah, that is the simple answer, but clearly not what the devs had in mind, or they would have just let alliances in from the git-go. I think it's a shame we have a CSM member promoting side-stepping their intent, but, there you go. We'll just have to see if they do anything about it, or not.
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Jay Marshall
Walks Forever Trade Inc
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Posted - 2008.08.30 23:24:00 -
[55]
Why should Jade want the way its done changed?
After all, her/his entire Alliance is war-deccing all corps that are joining the Caldari Militia pretty much at this point, thus influencing the FW in favour the Caldari Militia's enemies.
I agree that something needs to be done. How about this.
1/ Give the corps that join a FW Militia a non-war-dec status, like NPC corps get. This way while your corp is involved as part of the FW Militia you can't be war-decced by non FW Militia corps and you are also not able to war-dec any corp that isn't part of a FW Militia.
2/ If your corp has open war-decs on them when they try to join, they have to be settled prior to joining (either by surrendering or what ever) before the corp can join a FW Militia.
3/ If your corp leaves the FW Milita any current War-decs are automatically cancelled.
This would protect FW corps from massive alliances war-decing them just because they are annoyed they can't join the FW on mass as an alliance. If the alliance wants to war-dec FW Corps, then they have to split up, join FW Militias of thier choice and play on a level playing field, just like everyone else.
------------------------
CEO
Walks Forever Trade Inc
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Shaikar
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.31 15:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Becq Starforged
I don't see any reason why FW corps should be treated differently than independant corps. What makes a corp enlisted in the militia -- and therefore likely to be a PvP corp based in lowsec and surrounded by allies who could choose to come to their defense -- less able to fend for themselves than a independant non-PvP corp that is completely on their own?
I wouldn't mind seeing some revision of the wardec system, with changes designed to prevent out-and-out, endless, griefing. But I can't see the logic in giving special treatment to FW corps.
I know what you are saying and I think I agree with avoiding what you want to avoid. However, under the current rules FW corps are already being treated differently from normal corps - eg they can't be in an alliance whilst in the militia but the militia doesn't function like an alliance for wardecs. So given that FW corps are already treated in a special way I'm not sure saying they shouldn't be for further proposed changes holds much water.
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cpt Mark
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Posted - 2008.09.06 11:08:00 -
[57]
I support OFC.
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Menerai Entaro
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Posted - 2008.09.07 10:35:00 -
[58]
Sadly Jade is correct. As annoying as it is (to have corps singled out of fleets), the fact remains that changing it would open it up to wardec avoidance. A corporation would be able to dodge a wardec by moving/reforming in FW and still remain intact. That is unacceptable as it would prevent corporations being destroyed/disbanded, which is an important mechanic in EVE's player run economy.
If a corporation in FW was completely unable to affect the market in any (something which would likely be impossible) then you could do it.
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Somealt Ofmine
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Posted - 2008.09.08 04:47:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 08/09/2008 04:53:32
After looking into this a bit more it's not as big an issue as I thought it was. I think the factions that are getting back-door alliance help are truly deserving of the charity, and frankly, it isn't helping much.
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NeoTheo
Dark Materials
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Posted - 2008.09.08 10:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: NeoTheo on 08/09/2008 10:26:08
the only thing here i would like to change is to have alliances be able to join FW as long as they are not space holding.
i do think its a bit lame that the rest off the "allaince" (read milita) cant help, but on the other hand there needs to be a system for newbs to play pvp and if you dont want wardecing, dont join a player corp.
Basically i dont think the system is brilliant (with regards to FW) but on the same note i do NOT support wartering down of wardec mechanics.
Dark Materials
Linkage
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Pithecanthropus
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:45:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Menerai Entaro
Sadly Jade is correct. As annoying as it is (to have corps singled out of fleets), the fact remains that changing it would open it up to wardec avoidance. A corporation would be able to dodge a wardec by moving/reforming in FW and still remain intact. That is unacceptable as it would prevent corporations being destroyed/disbanded, which is an important mechanic in EVE's player run economy.
If a corporation in FW was completely unable to affect the market in any (something which would likely be impossible) then you could do it.
Look I spotted a Jade alt.
---------------------------------
Pithecanthropus erectus, a name derived from Greek and Latin roots meaning upright ape-man. |
Red Raider
Airbourne Demons
|
Posted - 2008.09.09 18:33:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
And yet, because you are posting with an alt why would anyone believe you?
WOW! Just WOW!!! So what you saying is a person doesn't have the right in EVE to post anonymously? Since there isn't a mechanic for it people who do not want to be hounded by forum trolls in game do post with alts. If you don't think it doesn't happen your wrong.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Your posting on this particular alt has been abrasive and rude, you've been unwilling to see other people's points and dogmatically stated the same old disproved theories with nothing but growing irritation to mark your participation in the topic.
Look at your public behavior since you have been in the CSM Jade! Pot calling the kettle black don't you think! Your here insulting a persons right to post anonymously and have the audacity to say that they are the ones who are in fact rude, abrasive, and unwilling to see other people's points? Not to mention your clearly biased in this topic and defending that stance to the death ATM which makes the bias all the more obvious.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
You are pretty much soapboxing with nothing but your own voice and a couple of other alts to back you up? (are those yours as well? who knows) Any which way its simply not very persuasive.
What are you doing? You have more or less dominated this thread with brow beating and insults on a position that you are biased on because of your direct involvement in war decing FW corps. You can't agree to disagree with people instead you come in and tell them they are clearly wrong and ignorant of the actual intent of CCP using the sandbox moniker of the game as an excuse to break the intent of CCP to use FW to get new players and carebears into PVP.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think you have made a bad mistake to keep your identity hidden for five yours. You should have been building a reputation that people could refer too when considering your points of view. Instead you currently don't have one. I'd suggest you begin posting with your main now and begin the task of gaining the credibility you need to take the kind of positions you have been taking.
Your reputation is less than stellar so I don't know what your bragging about. Your constant attempts at brow beating people into submission is very unbecoming of the Chair of the CSM, the CSM itself, you, your corp, your alliance, and of the EVE community for allowing you to be elected in the first place. Good thing the CSM is a popularity contest of who has the most corp/alliance members instead of forcing every person to vote when they log in because you most certainly would get no where near re-elected because your opponents would simply have to post the pages of ignorant drivel you spout and the intolerant behavior you display to condemn you to the ranks of the the "has been's" and "never was's".
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Anyways, its your choice end of the day.
Your right and its your duty as a member of the CSM to represent the community as a whole too CCP and not forum ***** for the good of you, your corp, and your alliance. Granted they got you elected, not going to go into how stupid the system is and how a blind monkey could get elected the first time a position like this is created, but you still have a duty to the entire player base even the ones that post as an alt and not as a main.
As for my support of the topic, FW corps should, in my opinion, only be allowed to be war dec'ed if all of the corps in the faction are given the status of members of an alliance and can defend each other equally just as alliances do.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
Jade Constantine
|
Posted - 2008.09.09 19:49:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/09/2008 19:51:26
I disagree of course. I will never consider the opinion of a posting alt to be the equal of a character with a fully-developed in-game reputation. I consider anonymity to be counterproductive to the interests of good political debate. Hence I really won't be taking the opinions of alt-posters seriously.
As for your opinion about FW corps being made immune to wardecs. You are simply wrong. Its not a change that is in any way shape or form in the interests of Eve online.
Star Fraction | Dare to Dream!
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Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.09.09 19:55:00 -
[64]
FW corps should not be immune to wardecs. If your corporation cannot compete it should close, just like in real life.
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Red Raider
Caldari
Airbourne Demons
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Posted - 2008.09.09 20:14:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I disagree of course. I will never consider the opinion of a posting alt to be the equal of a character with a fully-developed in-game reputation. I consider anonymity to be counterproductive to the interests of good political debate. Hence I really won't be taking the opinions of alt-posters seriously.
So a anonymous vote for a CSM member doesn't count as much as a vote from someone you know? Right, I will make sure your opposition knows that you only want people who you personally know and respect to vote for you because those are the only people you represent.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
As for your opinion about FW corps being made immune to wardecs. You are simply wrong. Its not a change that is in any way shape or form in the interests of Eve online.
Again you prove your ineptness in dealing with people. It's an opinion Jade. It cant be wrong. I didn't state it as fact but you do. Proving that you incapable of making a rational decision outside of kowtowing to your own agenda.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2008.09.09 20:52:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/09/2008 20:57:12
Originally by: Red Raider
It's an opinion Jade. It cant be wrong.
Yes it can.
And yes it is.
FW corps being made immune to wardecs would not be in the general good of eve.
This thread shows its only a handful of alts in favour of this move - you all sound very similar to each other and you all make your point with a mix of bad information, ill-formed opinions, personal attacks and insults your stock in trade.
But end of the day you are still completely wrong. Not sure what kind of weird liberal non-judgmental form of education you attended but if I'd handed in a paper claiming it was my opinion that the world was shaped like a cheese sandwich then my teacher would hand back a score of zero - not plaudits for the attempt and a condescending commentary: "well done! You might not have gotten the correct answer but you are differently right!"
This is a debating forum. If you put your name (even an assumed one) to a terrible opinion you will get refuted and called on it.
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Red Raider
Caldari
Airbourne Demons
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Posted - 2008.09.09 23:24:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Yes it can.
And yes it is.
o+pin+ion [ ə pfnnyən ] (plural o+pin+ions)
noun
Definition:
personal view: the view somebody takes about an issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment
Now that you know what an opinion is and that it is not 1+1=2 maybe you can come to terms with the idea of being wrong. I wont be holding my breath on that.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
FW corps being made immune to wardecs would not be in the general good of eve.
Why? It would not be in the general good of Jericho Fraction but you have only argued that they shouldn't recieve special treatment and then thrown down insults about using alts. You obviously don't know WTF your talking about because I am not an alt but you haven't looked into that your simply blowing smoke up anyone's ass who would think your CSM tag makes you an authority around here.
The fact is they already get special treatment but don't get the benefit of being in a quasi alliance despite the fact that thats what they are part of more or less. It makes them easier targets because they have a lot more to worry about and can't help each other by forming an alliance to defend one another. They have to act in an autonomous manner and war dec'ing an alliance for a handful of noobs who are just trying to get into PVP isn't a very good option due to the massive cost involved in doing so. You have every advantage in farming FW corps for kills and you don't want to lose it.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This thread shows its only a handful of alts in favour of this move - you all sound very similar to each other and you all make your point with a mix of bad information, ill-formed opinions, personal attacks and insults your stock in trade
Brow beating again Jade. You say that we are here attacking you but nothing we have said is in error. We say your biased because Jericho Fraction is directly involved in this activity and you don't refute it. Then you make back handed insults about how we "know nothing" and how alt's opinions can't be considered as viable. Your the one coming in here insulting people and attacking them for using alt's but when one defends themselves by pointing out the error of your ways we are attacking and insulting you? You should talk to Obama about running his campaign.
Originally by: Jade Constantine
But end of the day you are still completely wrong. Not sure what kind of weird liberal non-judgmental form of education you attended but if I'd handed in a paper claiming it was my opinion that the world was shaped like a cheese sandwich then my teacher would hand back a score of zero - not plaudits for the attempt and a condescending commentary: "well done! You might not have gotten the correct answer but you are differently right!"
Again with the ignorant and backhanded insults in an attempt at avoiding the subject at hand. Your behaving like a 12 year old who is being threatened with having his ball taken away and yet we are the people misbehaving?
Originally by: Jade Constantine
This is a debating forum. If you put your name (even an assumed one) to a terrible opinion you will get refuted and called on it.
Yet you don't refute anything here you simply say that it shouldn't be changed. For such an expert you seem to have no offerings as to why it would be bad, only that they shouldn't receive special treatment. The fact is they do and it makes them an easier target than being an alliance because they can't band together without leaving FW. If they all war dec it costs them as a group many times more to do it than it would a single corp or alliance. This makes them all that much weaker and the vicious circle continues.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
danwa
Gallente
MicroFunks
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Posted - 2008.09.10 14:17:00 -
[68]
Excuse me Alt's and Mains - but can we get back to the discussion of War dec'ing in FW. Seems this thread went off topic a bit and needs to come back to the point.
IMHO - War dec'ing is fine - we are fighting in both now FW and a War dec...however the one thing that does need to be changed is Fleet Operations for FW ops only.
If you are in a FW Fleet and you are fired on by another Militia, Corp, Neutral, Pirate or whoever, all fleet members have the right to fire back on you without consequence no matter the sec rating of space they are in.
If the corp is not in fleet ops at the time they are fighting, then the Militia cannot get involved. Then it is just between the corp's. This would apply to both Hi or Lo sec.
Take it from me, in R/L if you fired upon any group of soldiers, sailors, airman or marines, they would not care if you were "Whistlers Mother" - you would get a complete retailitation from the entire group. In R/L when you have are taking fire, you always returned fire and then figured it out later.
Simple - end of story.
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Red Raider
Caldari
Airbourne Demons
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Posted - 2008.09.10 22:28:00 -
[69]
Originally by: danwa
Excuse me Alt's and Mains - but can we get back to the discussion of War dec'ing in FW. Seems this thread went off topic a bit and needs to come back to the point.
IMHO - War dec'ing is fine - we are fighting in both now FW and a War dec...however the one thing that does need to be changed is Fleet Operations for FW ops only.
If you are in a FW Fleet and you are fired on by another Militia, Corp, Neutral, Pirate or whoever, all fleet members have the right to fire back on you without consequence no matter the sec rating of space they are in.
If the corp is not in fleet ops at the time they are fighting, then the Militia cannot get involved. Then it is just between the corp's. This would apply to both Hi or Lo sec.
Take it from me, in R/L if you fired upon any group of soldiers, sailors, airman or marines, they would not care if you were "Whistlers Mother" - you would get a complete retailitation from the entire group. In R/L when you have are taking fire, you always returned fire and then figured it out later.
Simple - end of story.
I agree with this. I just don't like the fact that an alliance can war dec corps that have to leave FW to form an alliance as well when they are already in a quasi alliance.
It simply allows the Alliance to spend very little money to fight a very vulnerable enemy that by and large has less experience than themselves.
In turn the corps can seek out help but the cost is astronomical for them and not for the alliance.
A happy gamer isnt on the forums, they are playing the game unless they have an idea that they honestly think is helping out. |
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