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What makes eve-online a simulation game?

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Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 - [31] Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Oddly enough it's a quite accurate market simulation. Apart from that it simulates space travel. ofcourse i understand that "real" simulators are something else but that is not the point, the point is that people shouldn't think in boxes so much. Less so if they do it in a way proclaiming to spout truth (not pointed at anyone in particular). As for how it reacts to needs and availability yes, what it sells no. but i get your point. but the majority of people and what the world would call intellectual people, would not be on your point of view. _________________________________________________________
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? nope its a realistic-futuristic-FPS _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [34] Also part of the "confusion" (or fun past time in my case) is that the question (partly) was "what is a simulation game?" Semantics I know :P
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [35] Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Free market economy. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [36] Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? nope its a realistic-futuristic-FPS Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:35:00 - [37] but i guess thats what sg3s will most likely discuss the next day at college with his (whoever it is) ^^ anyways got lunch, so out^^ _________________________________________________________
Mistress Luck	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? A simulation? Yes. A good one? No. Going by my previous post though and GNS theory, I would say it is definately a game with a gamist approach. Doom 3 though could more likely be categorised as a game with a simulationist approach (the purpose of that shooter was to simulate fear in the player). That still remains as the scariest game I have ever played.
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Kaito Rei but i guess thats what sg3s will most likely discuss the next day at college with his (whoever it is) ^^ anyways got lunch, so out^^ Yeeah but that's the point, discussions are good, fun, needed and enlightning while sometimes frustrating. Love em.
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:41:00 - [41] heey if i wouldnt love to discuss i would never post anywhere^^ _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:42:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question. Many simulations allow for relaxed rules, for various reasons. AA is indeed an attempt at a simulation. - DesuSigs
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question. heey wait a secon if it has a 3rd person view then how can it be still an First-Person-Shooter? :D _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:48:00 - [45] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:50:21 so arbitrarily not following real life rules/laws of physics does not make a difference if something is a simulation game or not?
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:57:00 - [46] EVE is an excellent Market Simulator, it does that well. However as an actual space simulator, it fails.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:50:21 so arbitrarily not following real life rules/laws of physics does not make a difference if something is a simulation game or not? Having the option not to do so does not invalidate it as a simulator, as long as it still has the option to do so. Of course, with the options turned off you aren't really using it as a simulator. - DesuSigs
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:50:00 - [48] its not a simulation game. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:51:00 - [49] Alright, even now I don’t think anyone in this topic has been wrong about anything, just want to emphasize that. The fact is that we are all talking about simulation, but we are all talking about slightly different definitions. The general definition most of us are talking about, making any game a simulator in some way, is also true out side of games or computers. Anything outside computers can be best described as simulations of ideas, thoughts and events, the best example is probably movies, simulating a story. But also before movies you had theater, drama and music, where music might simulate a strong feeling of or to something, or an event. I think simulation of things is needed to both amuse ourselves and bring over stories ideas with more ‘power’, or maybe ‘convince’ ourselves of something (like putting the calculations of a moon landing against a whole array of factors you have in space, this would be a simulation right?). And I’ve been talking about simulations this whole time but the simulator would simply be the tools we use to simulate obviously. And the general simulators can simulate both non-fiction and fiction. Then there is the more specific ‘simulator’ of which Crumplecorn is talking about, and probably the one that you think of first when talking about computer games. In short that would be the ‘reality’ simulator, but still a simulator. But when would it be a ‘reality’ simulator? Well that’s simply really, it s a reality simulator when the simulation is adjusted to better reflect reality in its totality. If it’s any other kind of simulation in games, where the game would be adjusted for ‘balance’ or other reasons that do not relate back to reality it would be a ‘general’ simulation. In this definition most games would not be a simulator anymore. But as Crumplecorn already said a ‘simulator game’ is a very fuzzy term. In fact it probably shouldn’t be used together with games at all, not even to reality simulators unless it’s specifically a ‘reality ‘whatever (flight)’ simulator’ or something. Because in fact all games simulate something up till a certain degree and they also simulate a reality, even though it may just be the creators thought out reality. So in the end ‘simulator’ just ends up being a nifty marketing term, to make it look cool or something. About the eve market, I agree this is a reality simulator, because it is adjusted to better reflect reality, but also still has a lot of work on it to be done. But maybe not exactly a reality simulator, but more of a Narrativist simulator… explained below. This would also fit into the GNS theory quite well, because the Simulationist gamer would be looking for a ‘reality’ simulator, to some degree. The Narrativist gamer would essentially be looking for a simulator game, but with a faint taste of something else, not deviating too much from reality, or for example maybe physics wise not at all, but not a ‘true’ reality simulator either. The Gamist gamers would not be interested in reality at all and probably doesn’t even car if gravity exist or not, just plays the game and hopes the mechanics will please them. In the end I wouldn’t look up the definition of a simulator on Wikipedia, since it does have a lot of bias, and can some times be very much based upon the view of a few or even a single person. This is why you can find tons of general categories and under that sub categories and more sub categories… Because that’s just simpler to explain. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:54:00 - [50] I always thought Eve was a pretty neat economy simulator...
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:58:00 - [51] Edited by: sg3s on 28/08/2008 17:58:28 Small addition, almost any play can be a simulator of something, it becomes a game when you actively take part in the simulation within a particular set of rules to that play. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Miss Uylear Caldari Uylears Dream	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:08:00 - [52] Suggesting that EVE can be a simulator is abit much. Keep the 'sims' to a professional context. This would include flight sims for real pilots, driving sims for real car driving learners. To be able to simulate, means to take a real life activity and reduce the risk. Real life as in modern life, as we live it now, of course. Putting games - the ones that mean you have to sit down with either a mouse or pad, into the category of simulators is not very sensible. And also qute mad. There is absolutley no simulation in being able to drive a game car or fly a plane using the bare minimal tools. A real simulator for planes would be a replicated ****pit. Or a car driving seat with a 360 degree field of vision and all the regular tools; clutch, brake, signals etc. Reduce this to a mouse, pad or stick on the desk wheel or joystick and it becomes so much less than the actual idea. but it is still fun, mind. Very fun. I see no man like man see's me.
Barsexual Castle Greyskull	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:10:00 - [53] people in this thread who insist on this game being a simulator need to go outside because apparently they are trying to justify all the time they spend in this game to be something more meaningful than a completely unrealistic pvp mmo. go play Microsoft flight sims if you want a simulator. they can be helpful in getting a piloting license.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:17:00 - [54] Originally by: Miss Uylear Suggesting that EVE can be a simulator is abit much. Keep the 'sims' to a professional context. This would include flight sims for real pilots, driving sims for real car driving learners. To be able to simulate, means to take a real life activity and reduce the risk. Real life as in modern life, as we live it now, of course. Putting games - the ones that mean you have to sit down with either a mouse or pad, into the category of simulators is not very sensible. And also qute mad. There is absolutley no simulation in being able to drive a game car or fly a plane using the bare minimal tools. A real simulator for planes would be a replicated **pit. Or a car driving seat with a 360 degree field of vision and all the regular tools; clutch, brake, signals etc. Reduce this to a mouse, pad or stick on the desk wheel or joystick and it becomes so much less than the actual idea. but it is still fun, mind. Very fun. Aye, this would be reality simulators. Where the simulation is adjusted to better reflect reality. Originally by:** Barsexual people in this thread who insist on this game being a simulator need to go outside because apparently they are trying to justify all the time they spend in this game to be something more meaningful than a completely unrealistic pvp mmo. go play Microsoft flight sims if you want a simulator. they can be helpful in getting a piloting license. Read my second last post and you might actually find out what all of those people ment with a simulator, because no one has been wrong. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:17:00 - [55] Sim Copter was a pretty cool simulation game
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Free market economy. A very poor simulation in that case, since it's entirely static. There is no way of competing on brand, improved quality, variation, alternative means of production and distribution etc etc etc.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:40:00 - [57] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 18:39:52 Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want? Those are not it — they are different single items, all of which are the same no matter where they come from. You as a produced cannot make your Estamels or your Fleetings or your T2s any better than someone else's Estamels/Fleetings/T2s. You cannot maintain customer loyalty because there is no way to make Cygnus Zhada™ 1400s and sell them at a slightly higher price because people like your particular product — the game automatically redirects buyers to the cheapest seller.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 18:39:52 Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want? His point is that all packaged Apocs are exactly the same, just like all packaged T2 425mm rails, and all units of tritanium. You can't have an apoc with a dent in the hull or super-strong tritanium or custom cooled 425mm rails.

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