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What makes eve-online a simulation game?

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sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:22:00 - [1] Today I had another real boring day at college, but at the end of the day I got the assignment to analyze a simulation game. Now obviously while wondering what game I should ‘analyze’ I started to ask myself “What defines a simulation game?” Having this obvious question I my mentor what he thought was a simulation game. This got me into the discussion whether or not eve-o is a simulation game. Eventually he explained that we were going to define what a simulation game is together with the group the next day (tomorrow) when everyone had their analysis of a simulation game. TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Because in a way it is a simulation game. My definition of a simulation game is “The representation of a reality, even if this reality has a different back-story from the reality we know as real”. Now this immediately brings up a problem, because this would mean almost all games can be included under the definition of simulation games... Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:25:00 - [2] Software which is intended to recreate reality in a particular field as accurately as possible using the available hardware. Games and true simulators are mutually exclusive. Nothing makes EVE a simulator. - DesuSigs
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:27:00 - [3] Eve isnt a simulation game, simulations match reality as close as possible Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:29:00 - [4] A simulation is a (simplified) model of parts of the reality and it could be used to predict results of experiments in reality. If the simulation is correct, then the predications match the outcomes of the experiment in reality. Maybe except for the market, Eve is no simulation at all.
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Gnulpie Maybe except for the market, Eve is no simulation at all. This probably, the market simulates some aspects of real life economics, but other then that EVE is still spaceships online without any actual simulation. If EVE was a simulation game, you wouldn't be able to bump that pod without damaging it. _ Sign my sig!
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:41:00 - [6] Is it wrong that I read the title as "What makes eve a sTimulation game"? Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:03:00 - [7] Edited by: sg3s on 28/08/2008 15:04:31 Well, lets make categories some categories under simulation games, one of those could be futuristic combat sims. Gamespot would have a small list of games that fall under that category. Where I think X3:reunion would resemble eve the most, just that it's not multiplayer. As for the limitations within eve like bumping pods is that, aside from technical difficulties, it would give endless grief possibilities. The makers need to limit themselves to keep the game fun. Let me give an other example, by the definitions given above second life could very well be a multiplayer simulation games. But the makers of this game had to limit themselves in simulating reality to keep it fun for a large group. I bet everyone would be killing everyone without remorseif possible , or maybe they have big repercussions to it, and ‘having sex’ comes to mind and I believe I read an article about how gambling will be banned. Anyway I may be wrong on these parts but I’m sure there are limitations to that game as well. Then in the category futuristic combat sims would eve-o fit as a multiplayer simulation? Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:27:00 - [8] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:27:34 There's different aspects to the whole concept. There is ofcourse the more normal approach but if your teacher is open to "out of the box thinking" you could state the following. From a strict point of view "simulation" simply means the act of imitating the behavior of some situation or some process by means of something suitably analogous (as per dictionary.com). Therefore any model or situation made that tries to reenact anything else is by defenition a simulation. That means by default that ALL games are simulation games since they are not real and are made to reenact or simulate a concept or scenario. - Pac-man is a simulation of a yellow round guy with a big mouth running around a maze, where his goal it to eat up all the yellow bits. - Pong is a simulation of 2 walls playing some sort of 2D form of tennis. Granted, this view might be a bit out there and it completely depends on your presentation and the type of teacher you have to pull it off :) No promises
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:31:00 - [9] Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. - DesuSigs
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:27:34 There's different aspects to the whole concept. There is ofcourse the more normal approach but if your teacher is open to "out of the box thinking" you could state the following. From a strict point of view "simulation" simply means the act of imitating the behavior of some situation or some process by means of something suitably analogous (as per dictionary.com). Therefore any model or situation made that tries to reenact anything else is by defenition a simulation. That means by default that ALL games are simulation games since they are not real and are made to reenact or simulate a concept or scenario. - Pac-man is a simulation of a yellow round guy with a big mouth running around a maze, where his goal it to eat up all the yellow bits. - Pong is a simulation of 2 walls playing some sort of 2D form of tennis. Granted, this view might be a bit out there and it completely depends on your presentation and the type of teacher you have to pull it off :) No promises I can do this hehe, thanks. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. I understand that it basicly contradicts your definition, but by your definition there wouldn't be any simulation 'games' either. But you could argue that those games are categorised wrongly. I can see the things from your point of view, don't get me wrong eh, but try to think out of the box. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Mistress Luck	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:44:00 - [11] Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Interesting question. Ron Edwards came up with some interesting definitions a few years back for the different type of tabletop RPG gamers. He has subsequently refined his model so you can look further into it if you like. Anyhow, the basic premise he had of dividing gamers suggested that good game design was found when the rules of the game supported and reinforced the desired style of play, and that designing a game to appeal to all types of gamers was essentially impossible. Why is that good game design? Because bad game design causes group dynamic issues, and misinterpretations of what the game is meant to be about. Such games are disjointed if you will. Eg. "this game is all about getting the biggest baddest pvp character" "no its not, its all about knowing what its like to be a space traveller" "wrong again, its all about trying to be a part of the game lore". Bad theoretical game design, but everyone wants to play for their own reasons so very popular. Anyhow extrapolating from those: A gamist computer game would seek to pit the player against ever increasing challenges, and players would derive the focus of their enjoyment from attaining more and more power to conquer tougher and tougher challenges. A narrativist computer game would place story or theme above all other considerations. Game mechanics could be tossed aside and broken by the designers if it would further the story. A simulationist computer game would seek to recreate an environment or a mood, and the primary goal of game would try to get the players to experience that creation. Needless to say most computer games and MMORPGs fall most distinctly under the gamist banner (even EVE). Flight simulators would probably be more pure simulationist. A simulationist game most likely has no need for character advancement, though they may include it as part of the immersion. Maybe GTA would fall under this banner as well? Narrativist games would probably be more like interactive movies or something. Anyhow, hope it helps.
Xentaire Zero Zero Traders	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:50:00 - [12] The lack of sound, it's very inkeeping with real space.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:51:00 - [13] I really hate you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:51:00 - [14] Originally by: sg3s Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. I understand that it basicly contradicts your definition, but by your definition there wouldn't be any simulation 'games' either. There aren't. You need clarification on whether the target is complex games, or true simulators. A 'simulation game' is a fuzzy term used by people who are playing games but like to think they aren't. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:54:00 - [15] Crumplecorn; dazzling people with his footwork since forever Don't confuzzle the guy!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Xentaire The lack of sound, it's very inkeeping with real space. I LOL'd despite the obviousfallacy. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Crumplecorn; dazzling people with his footwork since forever Don't confuzzle the guy! Footwork? ITT: We are dancing? - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [17] A simulation game is a game that contains a mixture of skill, chance, and strategy to simulate an aspect of reality, such as a stock exchange. Simulation gaming has its largest application in the world of computers with people learning by simulation. It has been used extensively as an effective way to generate new and more complex behavior among participants (eg. to engender courage among participants exposed to fearful conditions). One notable example is the use of Ropes Course challenge elements to spawn new "outside the box" thinking among corporate executives. When deftly used, simulation gaming can produce results which eclipse many other forms of training. In computer games, simulation game describes a diverse super-category of video games. Some simulation games are intended to simulate the real world; others are intended to simulate a fictional world; still others (The Sims 2 for example) are designed to be able to do both. Genres described as simulations * Construction and management simulations, a genre of video game where players experience managing a government, managing a sports team, managing a business, managing and building a city, or even playing a god. * Dating simulations, a genre of video game which focuses on Dating as the theme. In RPG games such as the Harvest Moon (series) and Thousand Arms, the dating aspect, not as a whole, is part of the gameplay. * Life simulations, a genre of video game where players manage a life-form or ecosystem. One of the most well-known is The Sims and its corresponding sequels. This section sometimes includes pet-raising simulations. * Medical simulations, a genre of video game where players take the role of a surgeon. This includes the Trauma Center and LifeSigns series. * Vehicle simulations, a genre of video game where players experience driving a vehicle. This includes flight simulators, racing games, and games that involve driving other vehicles like tanks or boats. * Photo simulations, a genre of video game where players take photographs of animals or people. This includes games such as Pokemon Snap and the upcoming Afrika. Other games described as simulations * Certain wargames with higher degrees of realism than other wargames set in a fantasy or science fiction environment. These attempt to simulate real warfare at either a tactical or strategic level. * Certain tactical shooters with higher degrees of realism than other shooters. These try to simulate the feeling of actually being in combat. * "Sim" games marketed by companies such as Maxis. These games have simulated many kinds of experiences. -------- There, Wikipedia solves yet another discussion. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:03:00 - [18] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:03:40 Wiki was SO close to the full answer, but missed by assuming that games that aimed at being a simulation are just that, while games that do not set out to simulate in the firstplace and/or don't simulate something "real" therefore aren't.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Wiki was SO close to the full answer, but missed by assuming that games that aimed at being a simulation are just that, while games that do not set out to simulate anything "real" therefore aren't. Well, I didn't quite copy/paste the whole article. But, you can't do anything more than put something in a genre that it decides it is. With the exception of something like an FPS, if it is third person, it clearly is not an FPS. But, it talks about The Sims which is a Simulation game, but not "real". Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:07:00 - [20] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/08/2008 16:08:39 Notice that in that wikipedia definition, flight sims are named as 'simulators', despite the fact that it should be redundant in that context. Why? Because they are always referred to as "flight simulators", because they are true simulators, and need to be differentiated from games which merely appear to be or claim to be simulators (all the other games in that list). Quote: This includes flight simulators, racing games, and games that - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:07:00 - [21] yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:08:00 - [22] I can only speak for myself as i see it and it might agree and disagree with previous posts. As I see it A simulation can only be one as long as what it simulates exists in reality. So eve is definitely out of the question, as it is overwhelmingly Fictional. most of the game mechanics try to make it look as realistic as possible, though it cant be fully. A Simulation for exaple would try to calculate the physics as accurately as possible, one thing we might here look at a little closer is tracking of guns, just to proove that eve doesnt realistically calculate, but instead uses a general game mechanic to simplify it for all players. Normaly If a Turret would be mounted on a ship that moves around a static point the navigation necessary to keep it in orbit forces one side of the ship to allways face towards the static point. So there would be no tracking at all needed to shoot that point. Eve still applies the mechanics of tracking here, to make it fair for all players . Thats why i think eve cant be a Simulation at all. Also the fact that CCP changes game mechanics at a regular basis to balance Gameplay states that its not about simulating something but rather to make it more fun. If a Simulation would change its physics-rules from time to time how would that be justified? Do the laws of physics in reality change from time to time too? hope my oppinion helped. Kaito Rei _________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? Since we started using definitions which don't render the word meaningless. - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? An FPS can be a simulation, Something like Operation Flashpoint is an FPS that is a simulator. Now, if you can tell me what those other three are trying to simulate. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:15:00 - [25] Space invaders simulates a mobile AAA against invading aliens, quite obvious I think. The fact that it isn't "real" does not matter, if NASA would be developing some kind of manned Mars lander and they'd test it in a computer model. While obviously not being real (no manned missions to mars yet) you'd still call it a simulation. Wether or not the depicted object or scenario is real or not, doesn't change the fact that by defenition ANY computer model (and thus game) is a simulation.
Celanti Amarr Advanced Joint Killing	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Celanti on 28/08/2008 16:24:12
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Since when is general consensus truth by definition? Here you can find someone who made all kinds of simulations in his mind and/or on paper, as there wasn't a better mnethod back then. The fact that he was mostly wrong doesn't matter, he tried to reenct a scenario in his mind in hope to find answers.. ergo a simulation. Eve is not intended to show reality, its intent is to entertain. _________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Crumplecorn Simulations simulate something real. Even your NASA example is simulating something real, just not constructed yet. You could of course define a simulation as anything in a computer, but that is a useless definition, as other words serve that purpose. It is not how the word is understood. Since when is general consensus truth by definition? Here you can find someone who made all kinds of simulations in his mind and/or on paper, as there wasn't a better mnethod back then. The fact that he was mostly wrong doesn't matter, he tried to reenct a scenario in his mind in hope to find answers.. ergo a simulation. We are talking about simulators on a computer system, and the purpose of such simulators is to avoid having to do exactly that. So a definition that includes them is not much use in this context. As for truth by general consensus, that wasn't my point, but nonetheless, welcome to langauge. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [29] Oddly enough it's a quite accurate market simulation. Apart from that it simulates space travel. ofcourse i understand that "real" simulators are something else but that is not the point, the point is that people shouldn't think in boxes so much. Less so if they do it in a way proclaiming to spout truth (not pointed at anyone in particular).
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei Edited by: Kaito Rei on 28/08/2008 16:19:40 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? Crumplecorn/agree If we'd do that than Halo would be a simulation game too, and Prey and Fear, and Far Cry. Everything that is Fictional and doesnt referr to something existing in reality is definitely not a Simulation. Ok, riddle me this; at what point does an FPS turn into a simulation? at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. _________________________________________________________

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