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What makes eve-online a simulation game?

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sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:22:00 - [1] Today I had another real boring day at college, but at the end of the day I got the assignment to analyze a simulation game. Now obviously while wondering what game I should ‘analyze’ I started to ask myself “What defines a simulation game?” Having this obvious question I my mentor what he thought was a simulation game. This got me into the discussion whether or not eve-o is a simulation game. Eventually he explained that we were going to define what a simulation game is together with the group the next day (tomorrow) when everyone had their analysis of a simulation game. TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Because in a way it is a simulation game. My definition of a simulation game is “The representation of a reality, even if this reality has a different back-story from the reality we know as real”. Now this immediately brings up a problem, because this would mean almost all games can be included under the definition of simulation games... Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:25:00 - [2] Software which is intended to recreate reality in a particular field as accurately as possible using the available hardware. Games and true simulators are mutually exclusive. Nothing makes EVE a simulator. - DesuSigs
Squably Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:27:00 - [3] Eve isnt a simulation game, simulations match reality as close as possible Signature removed. Please do not imply profanity in your signature. Navigator
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:29:00 - [4] A simulation is a (simplified) model of parts of the reality and it could be used to predict results of experiments in reality. If the simulation is correct, then the predications match the outcomes of the experiment in reality. Maybe except for the market, Eve is no simulation at all.
Sleepkevert Amarr Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Gnulpie Maybe except for the market, Eve is no simulation at all. This probably, the market simulates some aspects of real life economics, but other then that EVE is still spaceships online without any actual simulation. If EVE was a simulation game, you wouldn't be able to bump that pod without damaging it. _ Sign my sig!
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.08.28 14:41:00 - [6] Is it wrong that I read the title as "What makes eve a sTimulation game"? Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:03:00 - [7] Edited by: sg3s on 28/08/2008 15:04:31 Well, lets make categories some categories under simulation games, one of those could be futuristic combat sims. Gamespot would have a small list of games that fall under that category. Where I think X3:reunion would resemble eve the most, just that it's not multiplayer. As for the limitations within eve like bumping pods is that, aside from technical difficulties, it would give endless grief possibilities. The makers need to limit themselves to keep the game fun. Let me give an other example, by the definitions given above second life could very well be a multiplayer simulation games. But the makers of this game had to limit themselves in simulating reality to keep it fun for a large group. I bet everyone would be killing everyone without remorseif possible , or maybe they have big repercussions to it, and ‘having sex’ comes to mind and I believe I read an article about how gambling will be banned. Anyway I may be wrong on these parts but I’m sure there are limitations to that game as well. Then in the category futuristic combat sims would eve-o fit as a multiplayer simulation? Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:27:00 - [8] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:27:34 There's different aspects to the whole concept. There is ofcourse the more normal approach but if your teacher is open to "out of the box thinking" you could state the following. From a strict point of view "simulation" simply means the act of imitating the behavior of some situation or some process by means of something suitably analogous (as per dictionary.com). Therefore any model or situation made that tries to reenact anything else is by defenition a simulation. That means by default that ALL games are simulation games since they are not real and are made to reenact or simulate a concept or scenario. - Pac-man is a simulation of a yellow round guy with a big mouth running around a maze, where his goal it to eat up all the yellow bits. - Pong is a simulation of 2 walls playing some sort of 2D form of tennis. Granted, this view might be a bit out there and it completely depends on your presentation and the type of teacher you have to pull it off :) No promises
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:31:00 - [9] Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. - DesuSigs
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 15:27:34 There's different aspects to the whole concept. There is ofcourse the more normal approach but if your teacher is open to "out of the box thinking" you could state the following. From a strict point of view "simulation" simply means the act of imitating the behavior of some situation or some process by means of something suitably analogous (as per dictionary.com). Therefore any model or situation made that tries to reenact anything else is by defenition a simulation. That means by default that ALL games are simulation games since they are not real and are made to reenact or simulate a concept or scenario. - Pac-man is a simulation of a yellow round guy with a big mouth running around a maze, where his goal it to eat up all the yellow bits. - Pong is a simulation of 2 walls playing some sort of 2D form of tennis. Granted, this view might be a bit out there and it completely depends on your presentation and the type of teacher you have to pull it off :) No promises I can do this hehe, thanks. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. I understand that it basicly contradicts your definition, but by your definition there wouldn't be any simulation 'games' either. But you could argue that those games are categorised wrongly. I can see the things from your point of view, don't get me wrong eh, but try to think out of the box. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Mistress Luck	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:44:00 - [11] Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Interesting question. Ron Edwards came up with some interesting definitions a few years back for the different type of tabletop RPG gamers. He has subsequently refined his model so you can look further into it if you like. Anyhow, the basic premise he had of dividing gamers suggested that good game design was found when the rules of the game supported and reinforced the desired style of play, and that designing a game to appeal to all types of gamers was essentially impossible. Why is that good game design? Because bad game design causes group dynamic issues, and misinterpretations of what the game is meant to be about. Such games are disjointed if you will. Eg. "this game is all about getting the biggest baddest pvp character" "no its not, its all about knowing what its like to be a space traveller" "wrong again, its all about trying to be a part of the game lore". Bad theoretical game design, but everyone wants to play for their own reasons so very popular. Anyhow extrapolating from those: A gamist computer game would seek to pit the player against ever increasing challenges, and players would derive the focus of their enjoyment from attaining more and more power to conquer tougher and tougher challenges. A narrativist computer game would place story or theme above all other considerations. Game mechanics could be tossed aside and broken by the designers if it would further the story. A simulationist computer game would seek to recreate an environment or a mood, and the primary goal of game would try to get the players to experience that creation. Needless to say most computer games and MMORPGs fall most distinctly under the gamist banner (even EVE). Flight simulators would probably be more pure simulationist. A simulationist game most likely has no need for character advancement, though they may include it as part of the immersion. Maybe GTA would fall under this banner as well? Narrativist games would probably be more like interactive movies or something. Anyhow, hope it helps.
Xentaire Zero Zero Traders	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:50:00 - [12] The lack of sound, it's very inkeeping with real space.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:51:00 - [13] I really hate you. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:51:00 - [14] Originally by: sg3s Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: sg3s futuristic combat sims Oxymoron. I understand that it basicly contradicts your definition, but by your definition there wouldn't be any simulation 'games' either. There aren't. You need clarification on whether the target is complex games, or true simulators. A 'simulation game' is a fuzzy term used by people who are playing games but like to think they aren't. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:54:00 - [15] Crumplecorn; dazzling people with his footwork since forever Don't confuzzle the guy!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Xentaire The lack of sound, it's very inkeeping with real space. I LOL'd despite the obviousfallacy. Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Crumplecorn; dazzling people with his footwork since forever Don't confuzzle the guy! Footwork? ITT: We are dancing? - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 15:56:00 - [17] A simulation game is a game that contains a mixture of skill, chance, and strategy to simulate an aspect of reality, such as a stock exchange. Simulation gaming has its largest application in the world of computers with people learning by simulation. It has been used extensively as an effective way to generate new and more complex behavior among participants (eg. to engender courage among participants exposed to fearful conditions). One notable example is the use of Ropes Course challenge elements to spawn new "outside the box" thinking among corporate executives. When deftly used, simulation gaming can produce results which eclipse many other forms of training. In computer games, simulation game describes a diverse super-category of video games. Some simulation games are intended to simulate the real world; others are intended to simulate a fictional world; still others (The Sims 2 for example) are designed to be able to do both. Genres described as simulations * Construction and management simulations, a genre of video game where players experience managing a government, managing a sports team, managing a business, managing and building a city, or even playing a god. * Dating simulations, a genre of video game which focuses on Dating as the theme. In RPG games such as the Harvest Moon (series) and Thousand Arms, the dating aspect, not as a whole, is part of the gameplay. * Life simulations, a genre of video game where players manage a life-form or ecosystem. One of the most well-known is The Sims and its corresponding sequels. This section sometimes includes pet-raising simulations. * Medical simulations, a genre of video game where players take the role of a surgeon. This includes the Trauma Center and LifeSigns series. * Vehicle simulations, a genre of video game where players experience driving a vehicle. This includes flight simulators, racing games, and games that involve driving other vehicles like tanks or boats. * Photo simulations, a genre of video game where players take photographs of animals or people. This includes games such as Pokemon Snap and the upcoming Afrika. Other games described as simulations * Certain wargames with higher degrees of realism than other wargames set in a fantasy or science fiction environment. These attempt to simulate real warfare at either a tactical or strategic level. * Certain tactical shooters with higher degrees of realism than other shooters. These try to simulate the feeling of actually being in combat. * "Sim" games marketed by companies such as Maxis. These games have simulated many kinds of experiences. -------- There, Wikipedia solves yet another discussion. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:03:00 - [18] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:03:40 Wiki was SO close to the full answer, but missed by assuming that games that aimed at being a simulation are just that, while games that do not set out to simulate in the firstplace and/or don't simulate something "real" therefore aren't.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Wiki was SO close to the full answer, but missed by assuming that games that aimed at being a simulation are just that, while games that do not set out to simulate anything "real" therefore aren't. Well, I didn't quite copy/paste the whole article. But, you can't do anything more than put something in a genre that it decides it is. With the exception of something like an FPS, if it is third person, it clearly is not an FPS. But, it talks about The Sims which is a Simulation game, but not "real". Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:07:00 - [20] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/08/2008 16:08:39 Notice that in that wikipedia definition, flight sims are named as 'simulators', despite the fact that it should be redundant in that context. Why? Because they are always referred to as "flight simulators", because they are true simulators, and need to be differentiated from games which merely appear to be or claim to be simulators (all the other games in that list). Quote: This includes flight simulators, racing games, and games that - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:07:00 - [21] yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:08:00 - [22] I can only speak for myself as i see it and it might agree and disagree with previous posts. As I see it A simulation can only be one as long as what it simulates exists in reality. So eve is definitely out of the question, as it is overwhelmingly Fictional. most of the game mechanics try to make it look as realistic as possible, though it cant be fully. A Simulation for exaple would try to calculate the physics as accurately as possible, one thing we might here look at a little closer is tracking of guns, just to proove that eve doesnt realistically calculate, but instead uses a general game mechanic to simplify it for all players. Normaly If a Turret would be mounted on a ship that moves around a static point the navigation necessary to keep it in orbit forces one side of the ship to allways face towards the static point. So there would be no tracking at all needed to shoot that point. Eve still applies the mechanics of tracking here, to make it fair for all players . Thats why i think eve cant be a Simulation at all. Also the fact that CCP changes game mechanics at a regular basis to balance Gameplay states that its not about simulating something but rather to make it more fun. If a Simulation would change its physics-rules from time to time how would that be justified? Do the laws of physics in reality change from time to time too? hope my oppinion helped. Kaito Rei _________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? Since we started using definitions which don't render the word meaningless. - DesuSigs
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:11:00 - [24] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? An FPS can be a simulation, Something like Operation Flashpoint is an FPS that is a simulator. Now, if you can tell me what those other three are trying to simulate. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:15:00 - [25] Space invaders simulates a mobile AAA against invading aliens, quite obvious I think. The fact that it isn't "real" does not matter, if NASA would be developing some kind of manned Mars lander and they'd test it in a computer model. While obviously not being real (no manned missions to mars yet) you'd still call it a simulation. Wether or not the depicted object or scenario is real or not, doesn't change the fact that by defenition ANY computer model (and thus game) is a simulation.
Celanti Amarr Advanced Joint Killing	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Celanti on 28/08/2008 16:24:12
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Since when is general consensus truth by definition? Here you can find someone who made all kinds of simulations in his mind and/or on paper, as there wasn't a better mnethod back then. The fact that he was mostly wrong doesn't matter, he tried to reenct a scenario in his mind in hope to find answers.. ergo a simulation. Eve is not intended to show reality, its intent is to entertain. _________________________________________________________
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Crumplecorn Simulations simulate something real. Even your NASA example is simulating something real, just not constructed yet. You could of course define a simulation as anything in a computer, but that is a useless definition, as other words serve that purpose. It is not how the word is understood. Since when is general consensus truth by definition? Here you can find someone who made all kinds of simulations in his mind and/or on paper, as there wasn't a better mnethod back then. The fact that he was mostly wrong doesn't matter, he tried to reenct a scenario in his mind in hope to find answers.. ergo a simulation. We are talking about simulators on a computer system, and the purpose of such simulators is to avoid having to do exactly that. So a definition that includes them is not much use in this context. As for truth by general consensus, that wasn't my point, but nonetheless, welcome to langauge. - DesuSigs
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [29] Oddly enough it's a quite accurate market simulation. Apart from that it simulates space travel. ofcourse i understand that "real" simulators are something else but that is not the point, the point is that people shouldn't think in boxes so much. Less so if they do it in a way proclaiming to spout truth (not pointed at anyone in particular).
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei Edited by: Kaito Rei on 28/08/2008 16:19:40 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada yeah but my point is exactly the same as in my first post in this thread. Since when is an FPS not a simulation, or pacman, or space invaders? Crumplecorn/agree If we'd do that than Halo would be a simulation game too, and Prey and Fear, and Far Cry. Everything that is Fictional and doesnt referr to something existing in reality is definitely not a Simulation. Ok, riddle me this; at what point does an FPS turn into a simulation? at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:29:00 - [31] Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Oddly enough it's a quite accurate market simulation. Apart from that it simulates space travel. ofcourse i understand that "real" simulators are something else but that is not the point, the point is that people shouldn't think in boxes so much. Less so if they do it in a way proclaiming to spout truth (not pointed at anyone in particular). As for how it reacts to needs and availability yes, what it sells no. but i get your point. but the majority of people and what the world would call intellectual people, would not be on your point of view. _________________________________________________________
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:32:00 - [33] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? nope its a realistic-futuristic-FPS _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [34] Also part of the "confusion" (or fun past time in my case) is that the question (partly) was "what is a simulation game?" Semantics I know :P
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [35] Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Free market economy. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:33:00 - [36] Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei at the point where what it shows is based on reality and where it tries to make it as realistic as possible. Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? nope its a realistic-futuristic-FPS Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation?
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:35:00 - [37] but i guess thats what sg3s will most likely discuss the next day at college with his (whoever it is) ^^ anyways got lunch, so out^^ _________________________________________________________
Mistress Luck	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Would you rate BF2 to be a simulation? A simulation? Yes. A good one? No. Going by my previous post though and GNS theory, I would say it is definately a game with a gamist approach. Doom 3 though could more likely be categorised as a game with a simulationist approach (the purpose of that shooter was to simulate fear in the player). That still remains as the scariest game I have ever played.
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Kaito Rei but i guess thats what sg3s will most likely discuss the next day at college with his (whoever it is) ^^ anyways got lunch, so out^^ Yeeah but that's the point, discussions are good, fun, needed and enlightning while sometimes frustrating. Love em.
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:41:00 - [41] heey if i wouldnt love to discuss i would never post anywhere^^ _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:42:00 - [42] Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Originally by: Kaito Rei Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Which "FPS" that's out today would you classify as a (possible) simulation? Armed Assault? maybe^^ That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question. Many simulations allow for relaxed rules, for various reasons. AA is indeed an attempt at a simulation. - DesuSigs
Kaito Rei Gallente TAWD Research and Building Corporation TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada That has a 3rd person view, I'd be happy if you could explain me that one how I can have a 3rd person view of myself? And that is my point really, you can not arbitrarily state which is a simulation game and which isn't, because they all are. Mind you, that's something completely different from a simulation model, but that wasn't the OP's question. heey wait a secon if it has a 3rd person view then how can it be still an First-Person-Shooter? :D _________________________________________________________
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:48:00 - [45] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:50:21 so arbitrarily not following real life rules/laws of physics does not make a difference if something is a simulation game or not?
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 16:57:00 - [46] EVE is an excellent Market Simulator, it does that well. However as an actual space simulator, it fails.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 16:50:21 so arbitrarily not following real life rules/laws of physics does not make a difference if something is a simulation game or not? Having the option not to do so does not invalidate it as a simulator, as long as it still has the option to do so. Of course, with the options turned off you aren't really using it as a simulator. - DesuSigs
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:50:00 - [48] its not a simulation game. Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:51:00 - [49] Alright, even now I don’t think anyone in this topic has been wrong about anything, just want to emphasize that. The fact is that we are all talking about simulation, but we are all talking about slightly different definitions. The general definition most of us are talking about, making any game a simulator in some way, is also true out side of games or computers. Anything outside computers can be best described as simulations of ideas, thoughts and events, the best example is probably movies, simulating a story. But also before movies you had theater, drama and music, where music might simulate a strong feeling of or to something, or an event. I think simulation of things is needed to both amuse ourselves and bring over stories ideas with more ‘power’, or maybe ‘convince’ ourselves of something (like putting the calculations of a moon landing against a whole array of factors you have in space, this would be a simulation right?). And I’ve been talking about simulations this whole time but the simulator would simply be the tools we use to simulate obviously. And the general simulators can simulate both non-fiction and fiction. Then there is the more specific ‘simulator’ of which Crumplecorn is talking about, and probably the one that you think of first when talking about computer games. In short that would be the ‘reality’ simulator, but still a simulator. But when would it be a ‘reality’ simulator? Well that’s simply really, it s a reality simulator when the simulation is adjusted to better reflect reality in its totality. If it’s any other kind of simulation in games, where the game would be adjusted for ‘balance’ or other reasons that do not relate back to reality it would be a ‘general’ simulation. In this definition most games would not be a simulator anymore. But as Crumplecorn already said a ‘simulator game’ is a very fuzzy term. In fact it probably shouldn’t be used together with games at all, not even to reality simulators unless it’s specifically a ‘reality ‘whatever (flight)’ simulator’ or something. Because in fact all games simulate something up till a certain degree and they also simulate a reality, even though it may just be the creators thought out reality. So in the end ‘simulator’ just ends up being a nifty marketing term, to make it look cool or something. About the eve market, I agree this is a reality simulator, because it is adjusted to better reflect reality, but also still has a lot of work on it to be done. But maybe not exactly a reality simulator, but more of a Narrativist simulator… explained below. This would also fit into the GNS theory quite well, because the Simulationist gamer would be looking for a ‘reality’ simulator, to some degree. The Narrativist gamer would essentially be looking for a simulator game, but with a faint taste of something else, not deviating too much from reality, or for example maybe physics wise not at all, but not a ‘true’ reality simulator either. The Gamist gamers would not be interested in reality at all and probably doesn’t even car if gravity exist or not, just plays the game and hopes the mechanics will please them. In the end I wouldn’t look up the definition of a simulator on Wikipedia, since it does have a lot of bias, and can some times be very much based upon the view of a few or even a single person. This is why you can find tons of general categories and under that sub categories and more sub categories… Because that’s just simpler to explain. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
P'uck	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:54:00 - [50] I always thought Eve was a pretty neat economy simulator...
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 17:58:00 - [51] Edited by: sg3s on 28/08/2008 17:58:28 Small addition, almost any play can be a simulator of something, it becomes a game when you actively take part in the simulation within a particular set of rules to that play. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Miss Uylear Caldari Uylears Dream	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:08:00 - [52] Suggesting that EVE can be a simulator is abit much. Keep the 'sims' to a professional context. This would include flight sims for real pilots, driving sims for real car driving learners. To be able to simulate, means to take a real life activity and reduce the risk. Real life as in modern life, as we live it now, of course. Putting games - the ones that mean you have to sit down with either a mouse or pad, into the category of simulators is not very sensible. And also qute mad. There is absolutley no simulation in being able to drive a game car or fly a plane using the bare minimal tools. A real simulator for planes would be a replicated ****pit. Or a car driving seat with a 360 degree field of vision and all the regular tools; clutch, brake, signals etc. Reduce this to a mouse, pad or stick on the desk wheel or joystick and it becomes so much less than the actual idea. but it is still fun, mind. Very fun. I see no man like man see's me.
Barsexual Castle Greyskull	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:10:00 - [53] people in this thread who insist on this game being a simulator need to go outside because apparently they are trying to justify all the time they spend in this game to be something more meaningful than a completely unrealistic pvp mmo. go play Microsoft flight sims if you want a simulator. they can be helpful in getting a piloting license.
sg3s Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:17:00 - [54] Originally by: Miss Uylear Suggesting that EVE can be a simulator is abit much. Keep the 'sims' to a professional context. This would include flight sims for real pilots, driving sims for real car driving learners. To be able to simulate, means to take a real life activity and reduce the risk. Real life as in modern life, as we live it now, of course. Putting games - the ones that mean you have to sit down with either a mouse or pad, into the category of simulators is not very sensible. And also qute mad. There is absolutley no simulation in being able to drive a game car or fly a plane using the bare minimal tools. A real simulator for planes would be a replicated **pit. Or a car driving seat with a 360 degree field of vision and all the regular tools; clutch, brake, signals etc. Reduce this to a mouse, pad or stick on the desk wheel or joystick and it becomes so much less than the actual idea. but it is still fun, mind. Very fun. Aye, this would be reality simulators. Where the simulation is adjusted to better reflect reality. Originally by:** Barsexual people in this thread who insist on this game being a simulator need to go outside because apparently they are trying to justify all the time they spend in this game to be something more meaningful than a completely unrealistic pvp mmo. go play Microsoft flight sims if you want a simulator. they can be helpful in getting a piloting license. Read my second last post and you might actually find out what all of those people ment with a simulator, because no one has been wrong. Originally by: Tarminic Because even when EVE sucks, it sucks less than every other MMO out there.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:17:00 - [55] Sim Copter was a pretty cool simulation game
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Glengrant Originally by: sg3s TL;DR Now my question is, what makes eve a simulation game, what is a simulation game? Free market economy. A very poor simulation in that case, since it's entirely static. There is no way of competing on brand, improved quality, variation, alternative means of production and distribution etc etc etc.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:40:00 - [57] Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 18:39:52 Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want?
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:46:00 - [58] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want? Those are not it — they are different single items, all of which are the same no matter where they come from. You as a produced cannot make your Estamels or your Fleetings or your T2s any better than someone else's Estamels/Fleetings/T2s. You cannot maintain customer loyalty because there is no way to make Cygnus Zhada™ 1400s and sell them at a slightly higher price because people like your particular product — the game automatically redirects buyers to the cheapest seller.
Hieronimus Rex Minmatar Infinitus Sapientia New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.08.28 18:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Edited by: Cygnus Zhada on 28/08/2008 18:39:52 Brands, quality and variation is not available? Base T1, several named, T2, several faction, several complex, several officer per item. How many more different versions of the same product do you want? His point is that all packaged Apocs are exactly the same, just like all packaged T2 425mm rails, and all units of tritanium. You can't have an apoc with a dent in the hull or super-strong tritanium or custom cooled 425mm rails.

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