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NeoTheo
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: SoulOfAnnihilation
Originally by: NeoTheo
however for the men amongst us that do LOWsec PvP and more appropriatly Pirating some form of active tank is essential. Its all situational and dependant on the type of PvP that you intend to do, thats why sweeping statements from "experts" about whats right and wrong in PvP always make me /roll my eyes.
Ex-Pirate. Pirated for about... 2 years... Pirating... does infact require a Hardener set. Resistances over Buffer every time. You don't exactly have every chance possibleto go dock and repair.
Win Post.
i assume we are agreeing here then ? ;)
Neotheo Dark Materials
Linkage
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SoulOfAnnihilation
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:46:00 -
[32]
on the pirating part yes lol, but 7/10 times the Resistance setups are win.
HP Buffs are only for cap fights, or tanking Titan DD's... so... like you said, Situational.
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ArmyOfMe
Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 10:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin *insert lots of complaints*
Im sorry, but those specialized scenarios you keep talking about happens every day for pvp. and more times then i can think about, the rep bonus have saved my ass both when flying the astarte as well as eos.
And how can you say the eos and astarte needs a dps boost???? the eos had to be brought down in dps to be inline with the other commandships, its as simple as that. and giving astarte another dps bonus would be far beyond insane, HELLO, do we really want a commandship that would outdamage almost any battleship out there?????
please wake up and see that your not just wrong on this matter, your completly insane
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SoulOfAnnihilation
Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:01:00 -
[34]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Merin Ryskin *insert lots of complaints*
Im sorry, but those specialized scenarios you keep talking about happens every day for pvp. and more times then i can think about, the rep bonus have saved my ass both when flying the astarte as well as eos.
And how can you say the eos and astarte needs a dps boost???? the eos had to be brought down in dps to be inline with the other commandships, its as simple as that. and giving astarte another dps bonus would be far beyond insane, HELLO, do we really want a commandship that would outdamage almost any battleship out there?????
please wake up and see that your not just wrong on this matter, your completly insane
^This tbh
haha Merin Phails hahaa
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:08:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2008 11:08:34 Basically, Brutix wastes a bonus with the repair amount bonus. There is no reasonable way to fit a Brutix which makes use of the bonus in the first place - you need a Electron fit to dual-rep it, and then it has horrible DPS and preety lousy tank. - A falloff bonus would serve it better (improving it's horrible performance outside of hugging range). - A ROF bonus would serve it awesomely well (would push DPS to the roof however). Perhaps too well for a Tier 1 BC. - A armour amount bonus would serve it much much better, since gank Brutix fits currently lack any sort of EHP.
Changing the Brutix's bonuses from armour repair amount doesn't have anything to do with the fundamental weaknesses of active tanks, it's got to do with the fact you cannot fit a Brutix to have a tank and anything resembling reasonable DPS.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2008 11:08:34 Basically, Brutix wastes a bonus with the repair amount bonus. There is no reasonable way to fit a Brutix which makes use of the bonus in the first place - you need a Electron fit to dual-rep it, and then it has horrible DPS and preety lousy tank. - A falloff bonus would serve it better (improving it's horrible performance outside of hugging range). - A ROF bonus would serve it awesomely well (would push DPS to the roof however). Perhaps too well for a Tier 1 BC. - A armour amount bonus would serve it much much better, since gank Brutix fits currently lack any sort of EHP.
Changing the Brutix's bonuses from armour repair amount doesn't have anything to do with the fundamental weaknesses of active tanks, it's got to do with the fact you cannot fit a Brutix to have a tank and anything resembling reasonable DPS.
Yeah ofc the rep bonus is wasted BUT the brutix is still pretty much THE best tier 1 BC. If youre going to give brutix love you gonna need to give alot of love to the other 3 BCs aswell. Myrm is fine also. No need for pre nerf BS dps madness, kthx. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:22:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2008 11:23:58 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2008 11:22:32
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yeah ofc the rep bonus is wasted BUT the brutix is still pretty much THE best tier 1 BC. If youre going to give brutix love you gonna need to give alot of love to the other 3 BCs aswell.
Oh, of course others need love, they're even worse off. The Brutix at least throws out preety much the most DPS (with a fail buffer thanks to grid admittedly) - other Tier 1 BCs are even worse and need loving.
Fitting love across the whole Tier 1 BC land (with adjustments to bonuses) would go a long way.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Myrm is fine also. No need for pre nerf BS dps madness, kthx.
Yes, a tank-oriented BC outdamaging preety much everyone was horribly broken, but it's arguably a bit 'meh' right now unless you specifically need the tank - swapping its tank bonus for a gun damage bonus would make it preform preety much the same as everyone else does, however.
I forgot it's vertical. It's fine Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:25:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Yes, a tank-oriented BC outdamaging preety much everyone was horribly broken, but it's arguably a bit 'meh' right now unless you specifically need the tank - swapping its tank bonus for a gun damage bonus would make it preform preety much the same as everyone else does, however.
Ye, but you dont want to break the ship progression thing too much between myrm and domi. They need to be drone boats primarily. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:28:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Yes, a tank-oriented BC outdamaging preety much everyone was horribly broken, but it's arguably a bit 'meh' right now unless you specifically need the tank - swapping its tank bonus for a gun damage bonus would make it preform preety much the same as everyone else does, however.
Ye, but you dont want to break the ship progression thing too much between myrm and domi. They need to be drone boats primarily.
Well, the Dominix actually has a gun bonus, just people don't use it much because of grid.
But I retract my comment. Myrmidon is fine, it's vertical.
Verticality is a balance factor too.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
BornePassive
Krieger Allianz NIght's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:29:00 -
[40]
Leave the dam tank alone!
Its a DRONEboat
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Qvaaa
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Posted - 2008.08.29 11:52:00 -
[41]
Originally by: BornePassive Leave the dam tank alone!
Its a DRONEboat
U dont like to read or think or write too much, do you?
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Yuri Vladomirovic
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:26:00 -
[42]
Now an idea to the Brutix: 5% pwnage to med hybrids (as basic) 5% less penalty to max cap for mwd usage (like by the Thorax) this would make the 2.nd bonus useful, would solve some serious cap problems on the Brutix, and would not make the astarte too powerful (or hell, not even the Eos)
To the Myrmi: Probably, not the bonuses are the problem, but something is wrong with this ship: that max 6 non bonused turrets and 75m3 drone bandwith sounds just too stupid, even 6 missile slots would be better. I was looking for some possible changings, and not info about how much time u were pirating in the last piece of s*** edge of eve with it. Probably it worked there fine, but those fights u could also solve with Drakes/Canes/Harbies/whatever
With this ships is something wrong!!! Brutix pilots in 99% wont use armor repper (buffer instead, if any), Myrmi pilots in 99% wont use hybrids (ACs instead, if any)
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Furb Killer
Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.08.29 12:32:00 -
[43]
Is it a problem they dont use hybrids? And a decent ammount uses NOS/Neuts/ACs, but i think at least half of them still uses blasters.
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2008.08.29 13:03:00 -
[44]
The problem is not with the ship bonus's its with active reps (both shield and armour).
They simpley can't compete with plates and extenders in most cases due to higher fitting reqs, and massive cap drain for an advanage that takes too long to make sense.
Out of the entire Caldari Sub Capital ship line, there are 2 ships i would consider it may worthwhile fitting a shield booster to (Rokh, and Nighthawk), and even with those to case's there are times when passive tanks are preferable.
Plates don't need nerfing but booster need .. well boosting :) --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
Artemis Rose
Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:10:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, but the problem is the Gallente bonus is complete trash. Active tanks suck in PvP, so it's a worthless bonus. You might as well give the Gallente BCs a bonus to civilian hybrid turret damage, it would be about as useful.
What idiocy this is.
Just because it is "in" to be a buffer HP ship, does not automatically mean that you can not active tank for PvP.
__________________________________________________
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Lt Angus
Caldari Lt Angus Corp
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Posted - 2008.08.29 14:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, but the problem is the Gallente bonus is complete trash. Active tanks suck in PvP, so it's a worthless bonus. You might as well give the Gallente BCs a bonus to civilian hybrid turret damage, it would be about as useful.
What idiocy this is.
Just because it is "in" to be a buffer HP ship, does not automatically mean that you can not active tank for PvP.
Just means you will die, active tanks only work when tank is bigger or similar to incoming dps which is hardly ever, especially on a gallente blaster boat, add neuts and its even worse
Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
london
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.29 15:51:00 -
[47]
Edited by: london on 29/08/2008 15:53:09
Quote: If anything, the Myrmidon should get the tank bonus. The Brutix is a pure gank ship, I have yet to see a single decent Brutix setup that fits any significant tank. The Myrmidon, on the other hand, is explicitly said to be a tank ship in the description, and the focus on drones frees up those magstab slots for extra tank.
As for what bonus for the Brutix: 5% medium hybrid turret damage and 5% medium hybrid turret rate of fire per level. Fix the Astarte's bonus to match (and you could probably also trade the falloff bonus for another 5%/level damage bonus).
I totally agree. The Brutix has always been the gunboat, I don't think both ships need the same repping bonus. The Myrm being the tank should have the repping and drone bonus (and increase the bandwidth to what it used to be!). The Brutix can get a falloff or tracking bonus next to it's damage bonus.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.29 16:01:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, but the problem is the Gallente bonus is complete trash. Active tanks suck in PvP, so it's a worthless bonus. You might as well give the Gallente BCs a bonus to civilian hybrid turret damage, it would be about as useful.
What idiocy this is.
Just because it is "in" to be a buffer HP ship, does not automatically mean that you can not active tank for PvP.
Just means you will die, active tanks only work when tank is bigger or similar to incoming dps which is hardly ever, especially on a gallente blaster boat, add neuts and its even worse
There is nothing wrong with repping while flying solo or small gang. Maybe you should have thought twice about picking a race with active tanking bonus if youre not into that kind of pvp? ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
london
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.08.29 16:11:00 -
[49]
Edited by: london on 29/08/2008 16:13:11
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Lt Angus
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Yes, but the problem is the Gallente bonus is complete trash. Active tanks suck in PvP, so it's a worthless bonus. You might as well give the Gallente BCs a bonus to civilian hybrid turret damage, it would be about as useful.
What idiocy this is.
Just because it is "in" to be a buffer HP ship, does not automatically mean that you can not active tank for PvP.
Just means you will die, active tanks only work when tank is bigger or similar to incoming dps which is hardly ever, especially on a gallente blaster boat, add neuts and its even worse
There is nothing wrong with repping while flying solo or small gang. Maybe you should have thought twice about picking a race with active tanking bonus if your not into that kind of pvp?
Indeed, I found it a bit of a toss up between a passive armor buffer tanking and an active repping tank in a solo or small gang scenario. The buffer must be really huge to out do a ship with the ability to repair it's armor (given that the cap booster charges last that is ). Once the passive tank runs out, your done... so If the other guy has been able to repair all your damage and not run out of charges, your left in a bit of a pickle.
This is based on my experience with battleships anyways.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2008.08.29 16:17:00 -
[50]
Originally by: london
Indeed, I found it a bit of a toss up between a passive armor buffer tanking and an active repping tank in a solo or small gang scenario. The buffer must be really huge to out do a ship with the ability to repair it's armor (given that the cap booster charges last that is ). Once the passive tank runs out, your done... so If the other guy has been able to repair all your damage and not run out of charges, your left in a bit of a pickle.
This is based on my experience with battleships anyways.
Exactly, a well tanked domi for example will beat any amarr bs heads up because your buffer simply isnt enough while he can overheat rep and cap boost long enough to cap you out and to wear down your passive armor. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage |
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Wannabehero
Caldari Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2008.08.29 17:24:00 -
[51]
I agree and disagree with different points in this thread.
Do not remove active tanking bonuses from ships. If you believe active tanking is useless in PVP (It is not useless, just sub-optimal in many situations) then we should be asking for a buff to active tanking. The real problem with gallente and minmatar BC tank bonuses is they only apply to one form of tanking (active), while resistance bonuses like Caldari and Amarr apply to both active and passive tanking.
Also, there is a schism in the BC line for the four races. Amarr and Minmatar have BC's with one tank one gank bonus, and two gank bonuses. Gallente and Caldari have two BC's, both with one tank one gank, but no dedicated two bonuses to gank BC's. Personally I would like to see the Gallente and Caldari tier 2 BC's keep the tank role, and the tier 1 BC's (Brutix, Ferox) should receive a more gankier bonus. --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:55:00 -
[52]
Just because the metagame renders it's bonus near-worthless does not mean it needs to be changed: once a new metagame slips in it could become horrendously overpowered or useless again, and then it has to be changed again and again and again... See what I'm getting at?
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.29 22:20:00 -
[53]
Sure, just replace the cap use "bonus" on amarr ships wih something more useful first.
Here are some of my thoughts on this matter.
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Katabrok First
Caldari Apukaray Security
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Posted - 2008.08.29 22:38:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin .....
As for what bonus for the Brutix: 5% medium hybrid turret damage and 5% medium hybrid turret rate of fire per level. Fix the Astarte's bonus to match (and you could probably also trade the falloff bonus for another 5%/level damage bonus).
Please, do it for the astarte!!!
Kata
Uma vez flamengo, sempre flamengo. |
Wil Smithx
Minmatar Suns Of Korhal
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Posted - 2008.08.29 23:02:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Yes, a tank-oriented BC outdamaging preety much everyone was horribly broken, but it's arguably a bit 'meh' right now unless you specifically need the tank - swapping its tank bonus for a gun damage bonus would make it preform preety much the same as everyone else does, however.
Ye, but you dont want to break the ship progression thing too much between myrm and domi. They need to be drone boats primarily.
What progression?
The myrm is totally out of place in the progression, the brutix should be the drone boat. Follow the progression, imicus (here from the start of eve), vexor (here from the start of eve), dominix (here from the start of eve). Myrm (newest ship going and some drone/gun fail hybrid)
The myrm is a failed droneboat because it has only 75m3 bandwidth because it also has 6 guns and way more powergrid than it needs. It makes more sense for it to have been a real droneboat with at least 100 bandwidth as a tier 1 BC.
Put simply, CCP screwed up trying to put the more reserved BC as the second tier. It would make a lot more sense for the blaster boat to have been the tier 2 because it needs the extra powergrid and slots.
As far as tier 1 BC go, I think the ferox is my favorite (because it can easily run the warfare link and maintain a high EHP with moderate tankable DPS) but I would like to see them all boosted.
Hell a thorax running boosters out-tanks and out-ganks most cyclone fittings! but thats something for another thread :)
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Dristra
Amarr Shadows of the Dead
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Posted - 2008.08.29 23:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Wil Smithx
The myrm is totally out of place in the progression, the brutix should be the drone boat. Follow the progression, imicus (here from the start of eve), vexor (here from the start of eve), dominix (here from the start of eve). Myrm (newest ship going and some drone/gun fail hybrid)
The myrm is a failed droneboat because it has only 75m3 bandwidth because it also has 6 guns and way more powergrid than it needs. It makes more sense for it to have been a real droneboat with at least 100 bandwidth as a tier 1 BC.
Put simply, CCP screwed up trying to put the more reserved BC as the second tier. It would make a lot more sense for the blaster boat to have been the tier 2 because it needs the extra powergrid and slots.
This.
The myrm was nerfed way to hard. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.30 00:22:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 30/08/2008 00:35:01
Originally by: Yuri Vladomirovic
Myrmi Basically, the bonuses already work fine, but I could imagine a +10m3 bandwith/lvl bonus or a 5% to med hybrid damage bonus instead of the rep bonus. A really out of the box idea: 20% to energy vampire and neutralizer transfer amount.
Yeah thats what I would do if I were god.
Good thing you are not god, because that Myrm bonus belongs on the Curse/Pilgrim and should not be on the Myrmi. Drone bonuse? sure. Drone range/speed bonus? maby. Hybrid, speed? nope. It should not get a resist bonus because Shield Resist = Cal, Armor resist = Amarr, Shield Boost Bonus = Mini, and Gallente get the Armor rep ammount. . . your idea here shows that you don't see the strengths of a ship race and to 'ask' for a buff by making these strengths better, not stealing another race's bonus'.
Ultmatly, Gallente do well in PvP. Perhaps EFT cannot show that. . .but I only use EFT to 'see if it fits' the rest of the numbers are just "conjecture based on 'optimal conditions'" which means as much as 'soloing someone on SISI' which is nothing. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.30 06:56:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 30/08/2008 07:00:12
Originally by: Wannabehero Do not remove active tanking bonuses from ships. If you believe active tanking is useless in PVP (It is not useless, just sub-optimal in many situations) then we should be asking for a buff to active tanking.
Never going to happen. For active tanking to be useful in PvP, it would have to be boosted to the point where 1v1 fights would just be dead, since no single ship could ever break an active tank.
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Ultmatly, Gallente do well in PvP. Perhaps EFT cannot show that. . .but I only use EFT to 'see if it fits' the rest of the numbers are just "conjecture based on 'optimal conditions'" which means as much as 'soloing someone on SISI' which is nothing.
Gallente only "do well" in PvP because most PvP where you use Gallente ships (aka piracy) involves killing people with superior numbers and greatly superior skills. They're running on inertia right now, once the veterans finish re-training to Amarr or Caldari, Gallente ships will disappear from the killboards.
And really, all I have to say to the people arguing that active tanks are good (outside of a rare few specialized scenarios) is "lol". If you want to have cap-demanding tanks that provide less HP than a capless buffer tank, feel free to produce comedy killmails. Every time I kill an active tanked ship, I thank dog they didn't know how to fit their ship properly.
In the case of Gallente, it's even more of a failure than usual. Guess what you get if you waste all your magstab slots on an active tank: a cap-demanding mediocre tank, pathetic range, and no more dps than the missile/laser ships. Have fun throwing away the single remaining advantage Gallente ships have!
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.30 08:10:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 30/08/2008 08:11:07 Oh, I agree that Gallente should go 'all gank' for the most part. But I will be laughing at any 'vet' that trains Caldari thinking its going to be good. . .if speed drops, missles drop too (nano nurf = missle nurf) while the Lazors of doom will. . .for the most part, become the wepon of choise. ----
GO BLUE!! |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.08.30 08:20:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 30/08/2008 08:11:07 Oh, I agree that Gallente should go 'all gank' for the most part. But I will be laughing at any 'vet' that trains Caldari thinking its going to be good. . .if speed drops, missles drop too (nano nurf = missle nurf) while the Lazors of doom will. . .for the most part, become the wepon of choise.
Missiles are already fine. As long as they don't get nerfed below their current damage against fast/small targets, they'll continue to be fine. Right now, the only thing they have problems against is the really fast ships, and those exceptions to the rule are going to disappear. Add in the fact that precision heavy missiles will very likely be fixed, and missiles should be just fine.
And don't forget, while Amarr may have the best pure gank ships, Caldari have much better support options, while their gank ships aren't really that far behind.
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