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Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:09:00 - [61] Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 12:06:30 Originally by: Cpt Branko The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships. It means EVERYTHING. "Inferior" is only in your head. There is no inferior, there only is different. If you're arguing that performance cannot be expressed through numbers, you're being silly.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:16:00 - [62] No hes not. "Numbers" worth considering would be sucess rates from a large randomly considered population - or they would be the actual numbers from a ships compared to actual numbers from another ship. The fact that a particular player has success is anecdotal. That doesnt mean we cant learn from the anecdote - but be cant reliably draw generalities from it. That said. The Munin is the flaming turd of HACs.
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:19:00 - [63] Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ... I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics. And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:23:00 - [64] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 12:06:30 Originally by: Cpt Branko The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships. It means EVERYTHING. "Inferior" is only in your head. There is no inferior, there only is different. If you're arguing that performance cannot be expressed through numbers, you're being silly. Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ... I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics. And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it. Zactly. What everyone else seems to forget is that you can actually do stuff and make things happen. Create the environment suitable to you.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.02 12:48:00 - [66] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/09/2008 12:49:15 Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ... I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics. And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it. Originally by: Ruciza Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly. See, the fundamental issue with your approach is that, while you can compensate for inferior ships by having a capable gang with a capable FC, it doesn't make the ships themselves less inferior - unless the ship acts like a force multiplier (which a Munnin doesn't). Arguments about a gang being good despite individual ships being 10% off (or X% off) with proper EW and support does not mean the ship isn't inferior to its counterparts doing the same role. A good gang with EW support and good tactics can make a inferior ship work, but it can make the superior ship work better and therefore be a better asset to the gang. Basically, even if you can compensate for the downsides of a certain ship compared to its counterparts performing the same role in a gang, you're still left with a fundamentally worse ship, and somewhat lessened gang efficency compared to what it would have if it used its direct counterparts. And nobody said the sum sucks. People are saying the ship which is X% off sucks.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.02 13:01:00 - [67] I have used the Muninn a lot, and the ONLY use for it is close range alpha. Heres my fit: 5x 720 II w/ RF EMP 10MN MWD II, 2x SB II w/ scan res 3x Gyro II, 2x TE II 2x Scan res rigs (I know the stacking sucks but u dont have grid for a turret rig) A scan res of about 1000 depending on your gang means it WILL target a cepter before it gets up to speed. However, it does not necessarily follow that you will alpha the bloody thing to death. Even with HAC 5, 3% Med Proj implant and 3% all turret damage implant i still see half the cepters i land a volley on warp away, or worse, lock me up and then proceed to laugh while their gang or, more embarrassingly the cepter itself, kills me. Things look up in a decent sized gang where your opponent has a mixture of frigate and tech1 cruiser sized support. Untill they actually realise what you're doing you can devastate a support fleet and then run away. And that ladies and gentleman is what a Muninn can do. For anything over 30KM get a Zealot or an Eagle because the Muninn just can't compete. And tbh, the Zealot makes a better gang support humper as well with its better tracking, higher optimals and far higher DPS. A Zealot may not alpha a target but in a gang fight its 2.4 sec OR LESS RoF on heavy beams means its not long before it gets another volley on target. Also allows you to switch targets faster and even do pretty hefty damage to a primary target. My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit) compared to the 350 @29KM my Muninn does. And lets not even start on a Pulse Zealot vs AC Muninn discussion.........
Delichon The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET	Posted - 2008.09.02 13:49:00 - [68] Edited by: Delichon on 02/09/2008 13:51:41 Some ships only work in certain curcumstances. Imagine Drake having -30% DPS. It would generally suck compared to other Tier 2 BCs. Now throw 3 bassilisks into equation. Shield transfering to ships with huge HP buffer and stellar resists?!!! You would have a gang of 3 bassilisks + 7 drakes own any assorted gang of 3 logists + 7 other BCs. Curcumstances do matter and I can't see the reason to base game balancing on the implication that they don't. Edit - spelling ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next. EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun
Tefkros The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2008.09.02 14:13:00 - [69] Sometimes I wonder... Has any of you thought that if, instead of pining over every detail and imbalance over and OVER again, you flew your ships the way they are and really getting into their role, you'd enjoy this game more instead of turning it into an Excel contest? Who knows, maybe Minmatar were supposed to suck sometimes because they are underdog race? Now I will generalize and say that this is unacceptable, that Excel and EFT nerds want to feel like freed slaves that fly awesome pwnsauce machines with hot slave women waiting for them after a good days gank. Noone likes to fly an underdog sniping ship with 10% less range and damage. Right kids? GO ON FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO PWN WHILE COVERED IN SWEAT AND BLOOD LIKE THE HAWT DAWGS YOU ARE! And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap. And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention.
Sinaitra	Posted - 2008.09.02 15:42:00 - [70] Originally by: Tefkros Sometimes I wonder... Has any of you thought that if, instead of pining over every detail and imbalance over and OVER again, you flew your ships the way they are and really getting into their role, you'd enjoy this game more instead of turning it into an Excel contest? Who knows, maybe Minmatar were supposed to suck sometimes because they are underdog race? Now I will generalize and say that this is unacceptable, that Excel and EFT nerds want to feel like freed slaves that fly awesome pwnsauce machines with hot slave women waiting for them after a good days gank. Noone likes to fly an underdog sniping ship with 10% less range and damage. Right kids? GO ON FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO PWN WHILE COVERED IN SWEAT AND BLOOD LIKE THE HAWT DAWGS YOU ARE! And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap. And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention. Bump for another person with a brain and hugely agree on the huginn remark. Your all chucking around theries of muninns being great in gangs because of thier high damage. Yeh that may be true but your talking only about huge ganks of say 20 vs 5. The day you come up against an equal gang using munnins as your main damage dealers they are just going to melt as soon as they are primaried. Every setup posted so far shows the muninn with 0 tank. You primaried, your dead, end of discussion. Saying the muninn is great vs lasers, well wupty-doo, another theory assuming everyone on eve decided to fly amarr for the day. Just because min are supposed to be the "under-dog" doesn't mean they should get less than any other race. Saying x happens and y happens means crap. If your in a gang with muninns, great they do huge damage, but going against experienced pvpers in a force of equal size you will loose, the muninns will melt and you've wasted 150mil+ on a ship that crumbled under a few volly's.

Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Sinaitra If your in a gang with muninns, great they do huge damage Muninns do "huge" alpha, not damage. Unless you plan to kill the enemy in a volley or two, you had better have brought another ship. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Tefkros And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap. I like my 720mm Muninn too, and my AC Pest too. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck. Quote: And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention. Really, any ship in Eve is capable of killing any other. Hell, a covops can (and did) kill a titan. A Huginn vs Vaga fight will be close, but on average I'd put money on the Vaga. It's got more DPS at range, and generally a larger shield buffer. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:02:00 - [73] Edited by: Megan Maynard on 02/09/2008 17:08:08 Originally by: Poast Warrior Originally by: Boz Well It's freakin CAPLESS!!! B U T I T S N O T V E R T I C A L It is vertical! And when the t1 version can out damage the t2, that's pretty sad face.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Delichon Some ships only work in certain curcumstances. Imagine Drake having -30% DPS. It would generally suck compared to other Tier 2 BCs. Now throw 3 bassilisks into equation. Shield transfering to ships with huge HP buffer and stellar resists?!!! You would have a gang of 3 bassilisks + 7 drakes own any assorted gang of 3 logists + 7 other BCs. Curcumstances do matter and I can't see the reason to base game balancing on the implication that they don't. Edit - spelling Your analogy is incorrect, because the basilisks are the superstars here, and it's highlighted even more by the fact that you're using an inferior ship to deal damage. Convert to Guardians and Zealots and see which is really a better all around gang. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:08:00 - [75] Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 17:12:31 For the love of TomB, I apologize to myself that I ever posted in this thread and that I had good words for people here. Having the "numbers" now before me in detail, I notice that the Muninn is even more awesome in comparison to the Zealot and the Cane than I thought earlier today. Sincerely, you all fail (especially Liang, as always, holy crap, it's beyond words). Thank you. Roro out.
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Ruciza Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly. No my dear, alpha strike is all that the Muninn has. Well, what little advantage there is in it, these days. It's all we ever bring up with regard to the Muninn: the ability to alpha strike frigates before they get up to speed. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:10:00 - [77] Originally by: Ruciza For the love of TomB, I apologize to myself that I ever posted in this thread and that I had good words for people here. Having the "numbers" now before me in detail, I notice that the Muninn is even more awesome in comparison to the Zealot and the Cane than I thought earlier today. Sincerely, you all fail (especially Liang, as always). Thank you. Roro out. Coming from the guy that thinks AC Muninns are hot shit, but doesn't actually fly them... I'm hurt. I'm crying, really. -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:13:00 - [78] Originally by: Ruciza Zactly. What everyone else seems to forget is that you can actually do stuff and make things happen. Create the environment suitable to you. You can't control what everyone brings to a fight. They bring cruisers, BC's, or BS's to the fight ant the Muninn is useless. They bring friggies and you do pretty well until they outrun your tracking. Had you brought (for example) a Zealot, you'd do about as well against frigs, and much much better against the heavier ships. I've BEEN in this situation. I flew a Muninn for months on end... and this is really the truth of it: - Against frigs, you're awesome... if you can lock them before they get moving. - Against anything larger, you should have brought another ship (really, ANY other ship would have done) -Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:27:00 - [79] Originally by: Liang Nuren I've BEEN in this situation. I flew a Muninn for months on end... and this is really the truth Ah yes, the truth. I see.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:45:00 - [80] I love my Muninns to bits. I loved Muninns years ago when alpha counted, but they only had PG for THREE (you heard right) 720 II's. I still love it now, and so do lts of other people. HOWEVER I never make the mistake of actually thinking it's a good ship. The only people that do genuinely believe they are a worthy ship as they are at the moment are those WHO HAVE NEVER FLOWN A ZEALOT/EAGLE. Unless you really think that blowing up Tech1 frigates is all a HAC should be good for, cos thats all a Muninn can do with any degree of reliability.

Jodie Amille 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:10:00 - [81] Just IMO, but drop those two "utility" highslots, give +1 mid and +1 low and a tracking boost to arties and I think it will be a good ship
Sinaitra	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:16:00 - [82] Liang just leave, I never wanted you posting here and i was wondering how long before you came shouting all your crap. Nobody cares what you think, nobody wants you in the this post or on any other post in the forum. Go flame/troll elsewhere and just leave quietly. -Not Liang (thank god.)
Sinaitra	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:21:00 - [83] Edited by: Sinaitra on 02/09/2008 18:21:08 This is by the way my second post ever and I barely read the forums and I already know how annoying you are liang. Must tell you something about yourself.
Satura Most Wanted INC	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:21:00 - [84] Originally by: Delichon Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless". ... AND VERTICAL! But back on topic - since Muninns suck so obviously, can someone explain me why these guys use 5 Muninns in a dedicated nano-gang. (fits are locked on their killboard, but you can find their muninn fits on the Goodfellas killboard) These are not some run-of-the-mill gankers, they are good at what they do. Why they use Muninns and not Zealots? I think I know the answer. It probably has something to do with focus fire and ability to generate half of average Vagas EHP (and full EHP of an untanked falcon) with a volley from 5 ships... Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :)
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.02 18:22:00 - [85] Originally by: Sinaitra Liang just leave, I never wanted you posting here and i was wondering how long before you came shouting all your crap. Nobody cares what you think, nobody wants you in the this post or on any other post in the forum. Go flame/troll elsewhere and just leave quietly. -Not Liang (thank god.) Panties twist much? --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this
Kirkus Jameus Amarr Southern Cross Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:05:00 - [86] Originally by: Satura Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :) But they also have like 4-6 Falcons... ^^ I just looked at about 12-15 kills on this KB. Only one had Muninn's in the gang. Zealots and Ishtars (along with the Falcons) were what I saw the most of.
Satura Most Wanted INC	Posted - 2008.09.02 19:07:00 - [87] Originally by: Kirkus Jameus Originally by: Satura Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :) But they also have like 4-6 Falcons... ^^ I just looked at about 12-15 kills on this KB. Only one had Muninn's in the gang. Zealots and Ishtars (along with the Falcons) were what I saw the most of. Look deeper perhaps, i know vs. what i was fighting.
Ghoest	Posted - 2008.09.02 20:41:00 - [88] The Muninn needs another mid slot. Or the Muninn needs different bonuses. or the Muninn needs another low slot. Or the Muninn needs a lot of speed. It needs something so it doesnt suck. If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
Pan Fairchild Atropos Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.02 20:46:00 - [89] Our ships have tanks? I thought it was just my saftey blanket. Gunboat = fit gyros... increase falloff range and your talkin the good stuff
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.09.02 21:39:00 - [90] Originally by: bldyannoyed My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit) Zealot fit plx? I'm curious and I always like zealot fits.



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