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Kindadf
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Posted - 2008.08.29 17:34:00 -
[1]
Muninn needs a change, a big one, it has no tank and if you give it a tank you loose all it's damage and even then the tank sucks.
Roll on a muninn boost. |
BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.29 17:40:00 -
[2]
snipers arent really meant to tank..bs's can do it slightly but still, most sniper fits replace tank for tracking computers, sensor boosters and lows for gun tracking/dcu/damage
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Sinaitra on 29/08/2008 18:05:03 I'm talking about a non 0.0 point of view.
And before anyone else says "you can snipe in low sec/high sec.
I'm talking from a pvp point of view. If you want to snipe on a gate in a muninn you end up with pathetic damage and even worse tracking and crappy scan res.
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Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: BiggestT snipers arent really meant to tank..bs's can do it slightly but still, most sniper fits replace tank for tracking computers, sensor boosters and lows for gun tracking/dcu/damage
Zealot can fit a good tank and still do damage though and as a pure sniper it's much better too.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:22:00 -
[5]
The Muninn is quite simply outclassed in every possible way by the Zealot.
A sniper Zealot will have better range, dps, tracking (despite the muininns tracking bonus) scan res, EHP and speed. It can also be nano-fitted or buffer tanked ( just about ) where the Muninn simply can't.
The Eagle also makes a better sniper than a Muninn, though in a slightly different role.
Basically, the Muninn sucks.
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: bldyannoyed The Muninn is quite simply outclassed in every possible way by the Zealot.
A sniper Zealot will have better range, dps, tracking (despite the muininns tracking bonus) scan res, EHP and speed. It can also be nano-fitted or buffer tanked ( just about ) where the Muninn simply can't.
The Eagle also makes a better sniper than a Muninn, though in a slightly different role.
Basically, the Muninn sucks.
It's freakin CAPLESS!!!
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: bldyannoyed The Muninn is quite simply outclassed in every possible way by the Zealot.
A sniper Zealot will have better range, dps, tracking (despite the muininns tracking bonus) scan res, EHP and speed. It can also be nano-fitted or buffer tanked ( just about ) where the Muninn simply can't.
The Eagle also makes a better sniper than a Muninn, though in a slightly different role.
Basically, the Muninn sucks.
It's freakin CAPLESS!!!
HOORAY!!!!
It doesnt have to expend energy to be shit, it does it for free
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Boz Well
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:27:00 -
[8]
Originally by: bldyannoyed
Originally by: Boz Well
Originally by: bldyannoyed The Muninn is quite simply outclassed in every possible way by the Zealot.
A sniper Zealot will have better range, dps, tracking (despite the muininns tracking bonus) scan res, EHP and speed. It can also be nano-fitted or buffer tanked ( just about ) where the Muninn simply can't.
The Eagle also makes a better sniper than a Muninn, though in a slightly different role.
Basically, the Muninn sucks.
It's freakin CAPLESS!!!
HOORAY!!!!
It doesnt have to expend energy to be shit, it does it for free
Exactly!!!!!
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Boz Well
It's freakin CAPLESS!!!
B U T
I T S
N O T
V E R T I C A L
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Trevor Warps
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:29:00 -
[10]
It does good damage as 'close range sniper'. As in, you dont snipe, but deal damage instantly whitout having to move.
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Evanade
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:31:00 -
[11]
AC muninn = use a rupture Snipe muninn = good, but outclassed by the other races snipers, it needs a little 'oomph' --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored |
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Evanade AC muninn = use a rupture Snipe muninn = good, but outclassed by the other races snipers, it needs a little 'oomph'
Main problem with sniping in a Muninn is that the tracking is too bad for the range, i.e. with or without T2 ammo you hit zilch.
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.29 18:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Evanade AC muninn = use a rupture Snipe muninn = good, but outclassed by the other races snipers, it needs a little 'oomph'
Main problem with sniping in a Muninn is that the tracking is too bad for the range, i.e. with or without T2 ammo you hit zilch.
The main problem with a sniping Muninn is that a sniping Zealot is better in every way, and even ignoring that fact calling the Muninn "Good" may be stretching the truth a little.
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:33:00 -
[14]
Exactly, arty being left useless again, at that range if you beg them to sit still it's going to be the only way your gooing to hit them with no damage. If you go close arty nice damage yeh, but if they turn and aim at you your going to die.
The only condition in non 0.0 a muninn works is if all the emenies decide not to shoot anything at you.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:35:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/08/2008 19:35:09
Originally by: Sinaitra Exactly, arty being left useless again, at that range if you beg them to sit still it's going to be the only way your gooing to hit them with no damage. If you go close arty nice damage yeh, but if they turn and aim at you your going to die.
The only condition in non 0.0 a muninn works is if all the emenies decide not to shoot anything at you.
As a huge Minnie apologist, I have to say that the Muninn is excellent for blasting inties/frigs before they actually get moving.
-Liang
Ed: But if you're shooting something over the size of a destroyer, or if it has had time to get moving... you're boned. -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Boobiencia
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.29 19:41:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/08/2008 19:35:09
Originally by: Sinaitra Exactly, arty being left useless again, at that range if you beg them to sit still it's going to be the only way your gooing to hit them with no damage. If you go close arty nice damage yeh, but if they turn and aim at you your going to die.
The only condition in non 0.0 a muninn works is if all the emenies decide not to shoot anything at you.
As a huge Minnie apologist, I have to say that the Muninn is excellent for blasting inties/frigs before they actually get moving.
-Liang
Ed: But if you're shooting something over the size of a destroyer, or if it has had time to get moving... you're boned.
ill get a boner every time i shoot something over size of a destroyer when its moving?:D Sig removed, inappropriate content. Signature graphics may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to EVE Online. All content must be in good taste ~Saint |
Lazuran
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/08/2008 19:35:09
Originally by: Sinaitra Exactly, arty being left useless again, at that range if you beg them to sit still it's going to be the only way your gooing to hit them with no damage. If you go close arty nice damage yeh, but if they turn and aim at you your going to die.
The only condition in non 0.0 a muninn works is if all the emenies decide not to shoot anything at you.
As a huge Minnie apologist, I have to say that the Muninn is excellent for blasting inties/frigs before they actually get moving.
That was partly the case before the Sensor Booster nerf, but not anymore... Nowdays the Muninn just sucks.
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Proto Tron
Luna Wolves
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:15:00 -
[18]
In general Muninn sucks On the other hand, Muninn may rock in FW against Amarr ships... However, if you are rich enough to use Muninn in that capacity, you must be bored. Muninn needs more grid, more mids. and more tank. CCP: please boost arty!
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.08.29 20:43:00 -
[19]
Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.08.29 21:56:00 -
[20]
Get a Zelot. . . ----
GO BLUE!! |
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Boobiencia
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.08.29 21:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.
briliant
Sig removed, inappropriate content. Signature graphics may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to EVE Online. All content must be in good taste ~Saint |
Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.08.30 22:50:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Proto Tron In general Muninn sucks On the other hand, Muninn may rock in FW against Amarr ships... However, if you are rich enough to use Muninn in that capacity, you must be bored. Muninn needs more grid, more mids. and more tank. CCP: please boost arty!
Bump for someone with a brain.
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InsanlyEvlPerson
Gallente Mercenaries International Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.31 02:58:00 -
[23]
i used to fly minnie ships alot, until i realized everything else is better... then i got into amarr... the zealot is A M A Z I N G.
dont fly minmatar HACs, end of story
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.08.31 03:40:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.
Agreed.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.31 03:51:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 31/08/2008 03:53:30
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.
Signed in BIG FREAKIN' LETTERS.
Seriously. The problem always is, and always was, artillery. I say, as always; Scrap it, and introduce radioactive slag cannons with EM/Thermal DOT. Brings the DPS up to that of other weapons, and makes hit-and-run a viable option. Since it mostly isn't at all today.
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InsanlyEvlPerson
Gallente Mercenaries International Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.31 04:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Aleus Stygian makes hit-and-run a viable option. Since it mostly isn't at all today.
no, it wont, nothing will, tanks totally eliminate true hit and run, unless the hit squad is 5-6 pure alpha ships, and the target is on its own... need i mention how uncommon this is, and how given that situation its just fine to not have that alpha and just sit there for 30sec longer to kill the poor bastard.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.31 04:59:00 -
[27]
Originally by: InsanlyEvlPerson
Originally by: Aleus Stygian makes hit-and-run a viable option. Since it mostly isn't at all today.
no, it wont, nothing will, tanks totally eliminate true hit and run, unless the hit squad is 5-6 pure alpha ships, and the target is on its own... need i mention how uncommon this is, and how given that situation its just fine to not have that alpha and just sit there for 30sec longer to kill the poor bastard.
Not everyone flies tanks. And with a little reasonable tracking buff and five-six arty pieces you can probably put out enough alpha/DoT for it to matter.
Look at it this way; for Frigates, the hit-and-run would be excellent, especially in gangs and against Cruisers and Battleships. And for using arty against frigates, they might be able to take the alpha, but the DoT would whittle their tank, so that they might only have a couple of seconds to do damage to the enemy ship or back out and try and find a way to repair before hull breach takes place.
With Cruisers, HACs and fast Cruisers would still be able to employ hit-and-run, and those that wouldn't, well... They'd rely on other things.
With Battleships, it would mostly be about bringing the DPS up to the level of other guns. But they would also be able to do the tank-wearing game against Cruisers, for example. And knowing your residual damage is bound to kill a target, you could pull the trick of switching your guns to another target immediately, or a fleeing enemy or whatever...
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.08.31 05:03:00 -
[28]
Edited by: BiggestT on 31/08/2008 05:03:09
Originally by: Lazuran Edited by: Lazuran on 29/08/2008 18:17:08
Originally by: BiggestT snipers arent really meant to tank..bs's can do it slightly but still, most sniper fits replace tank for tracking computers, sensor boosters and lows for gun tracking/dcu/damage
Zealot can fit a good tank and still do damage though and as a pure sniper it's much better too.
Eagle cant (and still get to 200+km)
edit: quote
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007
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Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.08.31 08:41:00 -
[29]
The muninn could use a pg buff imo. I still love the ship, even hard to fit as it is.
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Nocturnal Avenger
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.31 09:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.
Agreed.
Agreed - although muninn, 720's, gate and RF emp = win
- Carebear Pirate - |
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.01 00:46:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Sinaitra on 01/09/2008 01:06:08
Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin needs more verticality so it can legitimately suck.
Agreed.
Agreed - although muninn, 720's, gate and RF emp = win
If i saw you on a gate in a muninn and you agressed me, i'd laugh, put a point on you, and watch the sentryguns tear you a new one. Poewrgrid doesn't seem to be a problem to me yes its tight, but it fits. But I don't see why a ship that is supposed to do huge damage should drop all it's damage upgrade points just so it can fit a viable tank, a tank that wont even hold against gate guns.
Any munmitar ship that is supposed to use armour reps as its tank is s**t. Ccp should fire the guy who thought up the fit for the muninn because he's probably the same person who thought up the typhoon |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.01 02:58:00 -
[32]
A couple of points: - The Typhoon is pwn. - The Muninn as described is obviously not a lowsec ship.
-Liang |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Elitist Cowards
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Posted - 2008.09.01 04:37:00 -
[33]
Fit a ton of tracknig mods and instapop inties. |
Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.09.01 05:10:00 -
[34]
Quote: If i saw you on a gate in a muninn and you agressed me, i'd laugh, put a point on you, and watch the sentryguns tear you a new one. Poewrgrid doesn't seem to be a problem to me yes its tight, but it fits. But I don't see why a ship that is supposed to do huge damage should drop all it's damage upgrade points just so it can fit a viable tank, a tank that wont even hold against gate guns.
1. you will not see a muninn in low sec at some gate agroing you. Unless he's aligned and hoping to insta pop something. 2. pg is a problem on the ship. But with a pg rig can fit a lse and some launchers. :) 3. if you armor tank a muninn...is bad. 4. try 3-4 muninns, few zealots, cerbs in a gang with basilisks or scimitars... |
Excesse
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.01 06:30:00 -
[35]
Artillery or passive shield tank it. It works fine. |
Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.01 09:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A couple of points: - The Typhoon is pwn. - The Muninn as described is obviously not a lowsec ship.
-Liang
I think you just lost all credibility.
Which inties are you trying to pop, the ones that sit still?
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.01 10:10:00 -
[37]
Not trying to start a flame war, end of the day you know as well as i do the muninn deserves a buff to pg, or tank, or arty in general. |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.01 10:32:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sinaitra
Originally by: Liang Nuren A couple of points: - The Typhoon is pwn. - The Muninn as described is obviously not a lowsec ship.
-Liang
I think you just lost all credibility.
Which inties are you trying to pop, the ones that sit still?
Both Liang's points are correct, how does that lose credability in your eyes?
Also yes, as I think stated earlier by Liang you can only pop them before they get up to speed. |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.01 10:50:00 -
[39]
The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.
Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant. |
Kaeh
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Posted - 2008.09.01 15:36:00 -
[40]
Both Liang's points are correct, how does that lose credability in your eyes?
Also yes, as I think stated earlier by Liang you can only pop them before they get up to speed.
The typhoon is crap... |
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.01 15:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Sinaitra I think you just lost all credibility.
Which inties are you trying to pop, the ones that sit still?
Actually, yes. You generally shoot them before they get up to speed. In fact, I've personally instapopped and podded a couple of gistii/snaked crow pilots with my Muninn. I did it by shooting them before they got up to speed (as cited earlier in this thread).
Now that's not to say that the Muninn doesn't generally suck, because it does... but it is to say that it does have a use, and it's not to be at 100km. ;-)
-Liang |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.01 15:52:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ruciza The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.
Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.
Shooting anything above frig size means that you'll run out of ammo long before it actually pops. This is a role that's best suited to pulse Zealots.
-Liang |
Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.09.01 18:55:00 -
[43]
Nah, and i think this is the first time i disagree with you Liang. :) Even in a gang of 2-3 damage ships, your target will pop before you need to reload. At least this is my experience. Shooting with Emp or Phased Plasma ammo ofc. Tremor sucks! |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.01 19:23:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kaeh
Both Liang's points are correct, how does that lose credability in your eyes?
Also yes, as I think stated earlier by Liang you can only pop them before they get up to speed.
The typhoon is crap...
Typhoon is awesomesauce torps heavies, big tank, rem reps/AC/capwarfare |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.01 19:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Captator
Typhoon is awesomesauce torps heavies, big tank, rem reps/AC/capwarfare
I still prefer a torp raven for omg-gank-with-buffer, and a geddon for RR goodness. |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.01 20:15:00 -
[46]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Captator
Typhoon is awesomesauce torps heavies, big tank, rem reps/AC/capwarfare
I still prefer a torp raven for omg-gank-with-buffer, and a geddon for RR goodness.
Fair enough, but geddon cannot fit MWD with tackle mods and injector, and actually can only run 1 rather than 2 LRAR, and raven again sacrifices buffer for tackle/propulsion, or tackle/propulsion to get the buffer.
Either way, it certainly isn't crap, like the poster I responded to seems to think. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.01 20:18:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Captator
Either way, it certainly isn't crap, like the poster I responded to seems to think.
Nahh. I just hate the DPS or range. You either fit torps and get 17km or so, or you fit autos and do the DPS of a thorax. |
Saraah Leeown
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Posted - 2008.09.02 05:53:00 -
[48]
Ahhh the ol' muninn vs zealot debate. The zealot hits further, and harder and can tank better is what normally gets thrown about. But people tend to overlook 1 small fact. The zealot is stuck doing EM/thermal damage. The muninn can pick and choose to an extent.
If I run into a sniping zealot in my muninn, I'm not all that worried. Scorch (the lasers close range high dps ammo) does about 82% of it's damage in EM. Just so happens the muninn has 75/90% resists on shields/armor and 60/67.5% thermal resists. So shooting laz0rs at a muninn is going to do about as much damage as shouting loudly at him in local
Granted I'd like to see the muninn get a little more alpha (and maybe some grid) but it's not hugely outclassed as some people make it out to be. Oh and using tremor is just plain stupid by the way \/ |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 06:03:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Saraah Leeown Ahhh the ol' muninn vs zealot debate. The zealot hits further, and harder and can tank better is what normally gets thrown about. But people tend to overlook 1 small fact. The zealot is stuck doing EM/thermal damage. The muninn can pick and choose to an extent.
The big problem with this line of thinking is that EM/Thermal is actually great damage types.
-Liang |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 06:45:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ruciza The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.
Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.
This is the comment of a person who never flied a Muninn or a Hurricane, or didnt do it enough to see the result of both. I used to think this way too, when I was training up for Muninn :)
A whole Muninn design points that way, I agree. It looks like it was designed in 30-60 range in mind, and thus drones, 650mm artilleries, and a possibility of missiles (heavies or assaults) in highs.
But, the Truth: within these ranges and this role you're speaking off Hurricane beats Muninn in every possible and impossible respect - HP, DPS, skill-intensiveness, even when fitted with some agility mods to compensate for the heavier weight. You can see that even in EFT, let alone in combat situation.
TBH, its the case with lots of HAC-BC pairs, but its less exaggerated. Zealot doesnt suck compared to Harbinger in this role that much due to bonus that works very well with pulses (we are omitting tha nano-setups for now, as inapplicable to Muninn) Ishtar doesnt suck that much in closer ranges compared to Myrm because it can field Heavy drones. Deimos... well. Cerberus is arguably better than Drake, but again, it's range bonus is cumulative to missile ranges.
Muninn is the worst of these cases because: - Artilleries hit it's fitting capabilities very hard - It's resistances do not favor armortanking, and midslots are too few for shieldtank - Main one - it's HAC bonuses modify tracking and optimal, which is inapplicable to Autocannons, and modifies the Artilleries in the area they suck the most.
This is supposed to be off-weighted by drone bay and missile/utility slots, but in fact you get a ship which is bonused in everything, and thus excells in nothing. Just like many other Matari ships.
So, no. As much as I'd want it, Muninn can't do closer ranges.
2 sensorboosters, 2 optimal mods, gyros, 720s and Domination CL or Nuclear in the barrels - thats the only application, I'm afraid. |
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 06:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Saraah Leeown Ahhh the ol' muninn vs zealot debate. The zealot hits further, and harder and can tank better is what normally gets thrown about. But people tend to overlook 1 small fact. The zealot is stuck doing EM/thermal damage. The muninn can pick and choose to an extent.
The big problem with this line of thinking is that EM/Thermal is actually great damage types.
-Liang
Plus, Muninn cant choose even to an extent, really. Nor you can reload in PVP, nor you need to, as PvP setups are omnitanking. |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 09:13:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 09:15:43
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Edited by: Saietor Blackgreen on 02/09/2008 07:10:38
Originally by: Ruciza The Muninn is a close-medium range medium gun fire support ship. It can evade battleships and has more range than Minmatar battlecruisers. Its role is not to snipe frigs, its role is to shoot everything, best cruiser sized and upwards.
Whether it is a lowsec ship is irrelevant.
This is the comment of a person who never flied a Muninn or a Hurricane, or didnt do it enough to see the result of both. I used to think this way too, when I was training up for Muninn :)
A whole Muninn design points that way, I agree. It looks like it was designed in 30-60 range in mind, and thus drones, 650mm artilleries, and a possibility of missiles (heavies or assaults) in highs.
But, the Truth: within these ranges and this role you're speaking off Hurricane beats Muninn in every possible and impossible respect - HP, DPS, skill-intensiveness, even when fitted with some agility mods to compensate for the heavier weight. You can see that even in EFT, let alone in combat situation.
TBH, its the case with lots of HAC-BC pairs, but its less exaggerated. Zealot doesnt suck compared to Harbinger in this role that much due to bonus that works very well with pulses (we are omitting tha nano-setups for now, as inapplicable to Muninn) Ishtar doesnt suck that much in closer ranges compared to Myrm because it can field Heavy drones. Deimos... well. Cerberus is arguably better than Drake, but again, it's range bonus is cumulative to missile ranges.
Muninn is the worst of these cases because: - Artilleries hit it's fitting capabilities very hard - It's resistances do not favor armortanking, and midslots are too few for shieldtank - Main one - it's HAC bonuses modify tracking and optimal, which is inapplicable to Autocannons, and modifies the Artilleries in the area they suck the most.
This is supposed to be off-weighted by drone bay and missile/utility slots, but in fact you get a ship which can do everything, and thus excells in nothing. Just like many other Matari ships. And with this type of design, bigger is always better, and Hurricane is bigger. And Typhoon is even bigger than that, but much more skill-intensive.
So, no. As much as I'd want it, Muninn can't do closer ranges.
2 sensorboosters, 2 optimal mods, gyros, 720s and Domination CL or Nuclear in the barrels - thats the only application, I'm afraid.
Your view has a tiny little problem: Arty doesn't suck at all. I guess you are indeed flying Artyships, but obviously (and sadly) have undersigned the reigning paradigms. It's more complex than that. Live the transversal my friend.
The Muninn is faster and more agile, that is why it got the tracking bonus, combined with the higher ranges it has double the tracking of the Hurricane. It is a matter of how you fly with artillery, especially in the pvp landscape as it is, with its criminal underuse of target painters on target painter ships. Speed is life, as you surely know, and in combination with range it is magic, too. That is the tao of the arty.
Minmatar t2 ships are designed to take on laserships. I don't see a problem in the kin/exp "hole", it's natural and part of the deal.
The bonuses are very much applicable to AC, which are the Minmatar antidote for tracking disruptors. ACs do their most damage point blank range, where both tracking and optimal is useful. As long as you don't want to go into neut/web range, arty is the way to go except the tracking problem, which can be compensated by target painters. Which are not used because, well, they are supposed to suck. They are the answer to all Minmatar problems actually. Just like the rest of the racial EW. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 10:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Ruciza
Your view has a tiny little problem: Arty doesn't suck at all. I guess you are indeed flying Artyships, but obviously (and sadly) have undersigned the reigning paradigms. It's more complex than that. Live the transversal my friend. The "truth" is YOUR truth.
The Muninn is faster and more agile, that is why it got the tracking bonus, combined with the higher ranges it has double the tracking of the Hurricane. It is a matter of how you fly with artillery, especially in the pvp landscape as it is, with its criminal underuse of target painters on target painter ships. Speed is life, as you surely know, and in combination with range it is magic, too. That is the tao of the arty.
Minmatar t2 ships are designed to take on laserships. I don't see a problem in the kin/exp "hole", it's natural and part of the deal. The Hurricane has no shield EM resists either, still shield is what you use when putting all those agility and speed and damage mods into the lows, right?
The bonuses are very much applicable to AC, which are the Minmatar antidote for tracking disruptors. ACs do their most damage point blank range, where both tracking and optimal is useful. As long as you don't want to go into neut/web range, arty is the way to go except the tracking problem, which can be compensated by target painters. Which are not used because, well, they are supposed to suck. They are the answer to all Minmatar problems actually. Just like the rest of the racial EW systems.
The Muninn fits into the Minmatar philosphy.
Your view has one small problem: it contains a lot of fantasy and theorycraft.
Fact of the matter is that arty ships underpreform compared to their competitors. Like it, don't like it, they do. Numbers, unlike people, don't lie.
Secondly, if discussing the Hurricane and Munnin, well, if you really want to, you can preety much get the Hurricane practically on level for some things (tracking,range - you have more slots then the Munnin) while having better alpha and better EHP (yeah, you get the cool T2 resists on the Munnin - and yes, DC II obliterates your T2 resist advantage), while having a agility and speed disadvantage over it.
Thirdly, more tracking is not the antidote for tracking disruptors. Tracking disrupting ships are incredibly stupid if they don't go for range reduction. A single TD will wreck AC falloff (particularly on falloff-unbonused ships) to the point where you must fight in hugging range.
Fourthly, optimal does the least for a Minmatar ship using ACs. Medium ACs will gain about 500 metres optimal. Can you say 'wasted ship bonus'?
Five, target painters are not used because, unless TP-ing something for a torp ship to fire on, they're much much worse compared to the other EW used by Minmatar recons. Namely, webs. Even if SISI changes go the way they're now (which is rather bad), a web is still a 4-5 times stronger effect then a target painter. They're also by far the worst EW system in the game.
Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 10:26:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".
... AND VERTICAL!
But back on topic - since Muninns suck so obviously, can someone explain me why these guys use 5 Muninns in a dedicated nano-gang. (fits are locked on their killboard, but you can find their muninn fits on the Goodfellas killboard)
These are not some run-of-the-mill gankers, they are good at what they do. Why they use Muninns and not Zealots?
I think I know the answer. It probably has something to do with focus fire and ability to generate half of average Vagas EHP (and full EHP of an untanked falcon) with a volley from 5 ships... |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 10:34:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/09/2008 10:36:02
Originally by: Delichon
These are not some run-of-the-mill gankers, they are good at what they do. Why they use Muninns and not Zealots?
I think I know the answer. It probably has something to do with focus fire and ability to generate half of average Vagas EHP (and full EHP of an untanked falcon) with a volley from 5 ships...
Probably because they didn't train Amarr Cruiser V + Medium Energy turret V + spec skills?
Check the alpha on a Zealot.
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 11:37:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Delichon on 02/09/2008 11:37:33
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Probably because they didn't train Amarr Cruiser V + Medium Energy turret V + spec skills?
Check the alpha on a Zealot.
2/3 of the Muninn. Meaning you need 7 Zealots for the alphastrike of 5 Muninns.
But wait before you get the arguement "Alpha is nothing in the age of HP-buff". I don't have my own opinion on whether Muninn does or does not suck. I see facts and I try to intrepret them. Fact is: people who know how to inflict hurt use 5 muninns in their nano-gang. The querstion is why. I am willing to accept any good answer.
And as for your answer, Cap - even if this is the case and if we accept "Zealot >> Muninn" as an axiom, it just means that Zealots would be pure pwnage when used the same way. But it would in no way make gang with 5 muninns useless or even weak. (multiple KMs are there to prove it is not) It would just make gang with 5 zealots better. But I doubt that you are right. Come to think of it - if I wouldn't be at work ATM, I would have scimmed their KB to look for damage contribution from those muninns. See if it is really the matter of alpha.
P.S. making text more clear |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 11:48:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 11:52:34
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Your view has one small problem: it contains a lot of fantasy and theorycraft.
Fact of the matter is that arty ships underpreform compared to their competitors. Like it, don't like it, they do. Numbers, unlike people, don't lie.
Secondly, if discussing the Hurricane and Munnin, well, if you really want to, you can preety much get the Hurricane practically on level for some things (tracking,range - you have more slots then the Munnin) while having better alpha and better EHP (yeah, you get the cool T2 resists on the Munnin - and yes, DC II obliterates your T2 resist advantage), while having a agility and speed disadvantage over it.
Thirdly, more tracking is not the antidote for tracking disruptors. Tracking disrupting ships are incredibly stupid if they don't go for range reduction. A single TD will wreck AC falloff (particularly on falloff-unbonused ships) to the point where you must fight in hugging range.
Fourthly, optimal does the least for a Minmatar ship using ACs. Medium ACs will gain about 500 metres optimal. Can you say 'wasted ship bonus'?
Five, target painters are not used because, unless TP-ing something for a torp ship to fire on, they're much much worse compared to the other EW used by Minmatar recons. Namely, webs. Even if SISI changes go the way they're now (which is rather bad), a web is still a 4-5 times stronger effect then a target painter. They're also by far the worst EW system in the game.
Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".
Fact is that numbers are irrelevant without tactics. That is the beauty if the balance in the game. I don't think it is tilted that badly anyway. "Must suck, because we are capless" shows you have not understood the minutiae of the Amarr-Minmatar balance. Minmatar are capless because Amarr use energy neuts and they need to run prop modules constantly.
Second, the Hurricane is of course really good, yeah, but it is less agile and has less range, and has bad shield resists against lasers, and has less tracking. Less agility means easier caught, and it takes more damage in the hit and run environment especially against larger ships. Minmatar combat is a game of catch me if you can, and extended webs might not get all the Amarr tacklers.
Third, while more tracking is indeed another antidote for tracking disruptors, I said that ACs are the antidote which enables them to go in. That is where they generally armor tank, to use their armor resists against EM. Over longer ranges armor tanking is not so efficient, since they don't have the PG and slots for both arty + damage mods + speed and an armor tank.
Fourth, when fighting at 1000m, 500 more optimal is not bad, especially with another tracking bonus, and while TDs are on you.
Fifth, webs are useless when you want to keep your speed up, which you do indeed want. Webbing the opponent is equal to webbing yourself, because you have to slow down to still hit him. It's no wonder you think arty underperforms. You fly Minmatar like Gallente. Can work, but not ideal. As I said before, target painters are the solution to all your problems. I find it fascinating that so few people have noticed that. Even rubbing their noses into it doesn't do any good.
I have a high opinion of you, not the least because you believe in Assault Frigs when so many stupid professional forum detractors think they're a lost case. Too bad the self fulfilling prophecy got you too now. I know my posts may make little sense for you and others, but that's because you haven't thought it through. I still try my best to make a good Minmatar out of ya! |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 11:56:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Delichon
And as for your answer, Cap - even if this is the case and if we accept "Zealot >> Muninn" as an axiom, it just means that Zealots would be pure pwnage when used the same way. But it would in no way make gang with 5 muninns useless or even weak. (multiple KMs are there to prove it is not) It would just make gang with 5 zealots better.
It'd make it comparatively weaker - and that is what really counts.
I mean, I use Minmatar BS at times (mostly because I haven't trained Amarr BS yet) - and they're not useless globally speaking - in a gang it's still a BS, contributes some DPS, remote repping and all that jazz, and they do a solid job in the end.*
They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow.
The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships.
*So why would I train for something else if they do a solid job? Simply. I want to preform better. If I preform better, my gang preforms better too.
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Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Delichon I see facts and I try to intrepret them.
I interpret it this way: Minmatar are the quintessential nanos, and that's why the Muninn works well in a nano gang. CCP has made them that way. The sum is greater than its parts because of tactics.
(Amarr are the quintessential anti-nanos btw) |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships.
It means EVERYTHING. "Inferior" is only in your head. |
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:09:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 12:06:30
Originally by: Cpt Branko
The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships.
It means EVERYTHING. "Inferior" is only in your head. There is no inferior, there only is different.
If you're arguing that performance cannot be expressed through numbers, you're being silly.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:16:00 -
[62]
No hes not. "Numbers" worth considering would be sucess rates from a large randomly considered population - or they would be the actual numbers from a ships compared to actual numbers from another ship.
The fact that a particular player has success is anecdotal. That doesnt mean we cant learn from the anecdote - but be cant reliably draw generalities from it.
That said. The Munin is the flaming turd of HACs. |
Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 12:19:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ...
I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics.
And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it. |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 12:23:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Ruciza Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 12:06:30
Originally by: Cpt Branko
The fact some people use ship X with fit Y successfully doesn't really mean much. People use ships which are inferior to their competitors all the time, and with good pilots and good tactics, they get by fine. It doesn't make the ship not suck, because you measure ship performance by comparing to equivalent ships.
It means EVERYTHING. "Inferior" is only in your head. There is no inferior, there only is different.
If you're arguing that performance cannot be expressed through numbers, you're being silly.
Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly. |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 12:26:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Delichon
Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ...
I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics.
And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it.
Zactly. What everyone else seems to forget is that you can actually do stuff and make things happen. Create the environment suitable to you. |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 12:48:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 02/09/2008 12:49:15
Originally by: Delichon
Originally by: Cpt Branko ...They're just weaker then the other options. A ship sucks if it's outclassed by other ships in the same role, or it's role (where it has advantages over competition) is too narrow. ...
I guess here is where we split in our arguements. Because a good FC can generate curcumstances to utilize the "narrow niche" often enough to inflict more pain than the FC that uses mix of overally "good" ships and overally "good" tactics.
And for me whether ship sucks or not is measured by the amount of pain a capable pilot (in a capable gang with capable FC) can inflict with it.
Originally by: Ruciza
Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly.
See, the fundamental issue with your approach is that, while you can compensate for inferior ships by having a capable gang with a capable FC, it doesn't make the ships themselves less inferior - unless the ship acts like a force multiplier (which a Munnin doesn't).
Arguments about a gang being good despite individual ships being 10% off (or X% off) with proper EW and support does not mean the ship isn't inferior to its counterparts doing the same role*. A good gang with EW support and good tactics can make a inferior ship work, but it can make the superior ship work better and therefore be a better asset to the gang.
Basically, even if you can compensate for the downsides of a certain ship compared to its counterparts performing the same role in a gang, you're still left with a fundamentally worse ship, and somewhat lessened gang efficency compared to what it would have if it used its direct counterparts.
*And nobody said the sum sucks. People are saying the ship which is X% off sucks.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.09.02 13:01:00 -
[67]
I have used the Muninn a lot, and the ONLY use for it is close range alpha.
Heres my fit:
5x 720 II w/ RF EMP
10MN MWD II, 2x SB II w/ scan res
3x Gyro II, 2x TE II
2x Scan res rigs (I know the stacking sucks but u dont have grid for a turret rig)
A scan res of about 1000 depending on your gang means it WILL target a cepter before it gets up to speed. However, it does not necessarily follow that you will alpha the bloody thing to death. Even with HAC 5, 3% Med Proj implant and 3% all turret damage implant i still see half the cepters i land a volley on warp away, or worse, lock me up and then proceed to laugh while their gang or, more embarrassingly the cepter itself, kills me.
Things look up in a decent sized gang where your opponent has a mixture of frigate and tech1 cruiser sized support. Untill they actually realise what you're doing you can devastate a support fleet and then run away.
And that ladies and gentleman is what a Muninn can do.
For anything over 30KM get a Zealot or an Eagle because the Muninn just can't compete. And tbh, the Zealot makes a better gang support humper as well with its better tracking, higher optimals and far higher DPS. A Zealot may not alpha a target but in a gang fight its 2.4 sec OR LESS RoF on heavy beams means its not long before it gets another volley on target. Also allows you to switch targets faster and even do pretty hefty damage to a primary target. My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit) compared to the 350 @29KM my Muninn does.
And lets not even start on a Pulse Zealot vs AC Muninn discussion.........
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.02 13:49:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Delichon on 02/09/2008 13:51:41 Some ships only work in certain curcumstances. Imagine Drake having -30% DPS. It would generally suck compared to other Tier 2 BCs.
Now throw 3 bassilisks into equation. Shield transfering to ships with huge HP buffer and stellar resists?!!!
You would have a gang of 3 bassilisks + 7 drakes own any assorted gang of 3 logists + 7 other BCs.
Curcumstances do matter and I can't see the reason to base game balancing on the implication that they don't.
Edit - spelling ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Tefkros
The Dead Pod Society Chain of Chaos
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Posted - 2008.09.02 14:13:00 -
[69]
Sometimes I wonder... Has any of you thought that if, instead of pining over every detail and imbalance over and OVER again, you flew your ships the way they are and really getting into their role, you'd enjoy this game more instead of turning it into an Excel contest?
Who knows, maybe Minmatar were supposed to suck sometimes because they are underdog race? Now I will generalize and say that this is unacceptable, that Excel and EFT nerds want to feel like freed slaves that fly awesome pwnsauce machines with hot slave women waiting for them after a good days gank. Noone likes to fly an underdog sniping ship with 10% less range and damage. Right kids? GO ON FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO PWN WHILE COVERED IN SWEAT AND BLOOD LIKE THE HAWT DAWGS YOU ARE!
And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap.
And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention.
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.02 15:42:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tefkros Sometimes I wonder... Has any of you thought that if, instead of pining over every detail and imbalance over and OVER again, you flew your ships the way they are and really getting into their role, you'd enjoy this game more instead of turning it into an Excel contest?
Who knows, maybe Minmatar were supposed to suck sometimes because they are underdog race? Now I will generalize and say that this is unacceptable, that Excel and EFT nerds want to feel like freed slaves that fly awesome pwnsauce machines with hot slave women waiting for them after a good days gank. Noone likes to fly an underdog sniping ship with 10% less range and damage. Right kids? GO ON FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO PWN WHILE COVERED IN SWEAT AND BLOOD LIKE THE HAWT DAWGS YOU ARE!
And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap.
And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention.
Bump for another person with a brain and hugely agree on the huginn remark.
Your all chucking around theries of muninns being great in gangs because of thier high damage. Yeh that may be true but your talking only about huge ganks of say 20 vs 5.
The day you come up against an equal gang using munnins as your main damage dealers they are just going to melt as soon as they are primaried. Every setup posted so far shows the muninn with 0 tank. You primaried, your dead, end of discussion. Saying the muninn is great vs lasers, well wupty-doo, another theory assuming everyone on eve decided to fly amarr for the day. Just because min are supposed to be the "under-dog" doesn't mean they should get less than any other race. Saying x happens and y happens means crap.
If your in a gang with muninns, great they do huge damage, but going against experienced pvpers in a force of equal size you will loose, the muninns will melt and you've wasted 150mil+ on a ship that crumbled under a few volly's.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 16:59:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sinaitra If your in a gang with muninns, great they do huge damage
Muninns do "huge" alpha, not damage. Unless you plan to kill the enemy in a volley or two, you had better have brought another ship.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
|
Posted - 2008.09.02 17:02:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Tefkros And yes I love my Muninn every time I take it out. I can fly Zealots as well. Arguments, arguments, numbers, numbers, crap.
I like my 720mm Muninn too, and my AC Pest too. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
Quote: And 90% of you still think a Huginn can't kill a Vagabond solo. No wonder the devs rarely pay attention.
Really, any ship in Eve is capable of killing any other. Hell, a covops can (and did) kill a titan. A Huginn vs Vaga fight will be close, but on average I'd put money on the Vaga. It's got more DPS at range, and generally a larger shield buffer.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Megan Maynard
Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:02:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Megan Maynard on 02/09/2008 17:08:08
Originally by: Poast Warrior
Originally by: Boz Well
It's freakin CAPLESS!!!
B U T
I T S
N O T
V E R T I C A L
It is vertical!
And when the t1 version can out damage the t2, that's pretty sad face.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Delichon
Some ships only work in certain curcumstances. Imagine Drake having -30% DPS. It would generally suck compared to other Tier 2 BCs.
Now throw 3 bassilisks into equation. Shield transfering to ships with huge HP buffer and stellar resists?!!!
You would have a gang of 3 bassilisks + 7 drakes own any assorted gang of 3 logists + 7 other BCs.
Curcumstances do matter and I can't see the reason to base game balancing on the implication that they don't.
Edit - spelling
Your analogy is incorrect, because the basilisks are the superstars here, and it's highlighted even more by the fact that you're using an inferior ship to deal damage. Convert to Guardians and Zealots and see which is really a better all around gang.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:08:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Ruciza on 02/09/2008 17:12:31 For the love of TomB, I apologize to myself that I ever posted in this thread and that I had good words for people here. Having the "numbers" now before me in detail, I notice that the Muninn is even more awesome in comparison to the Zealot and the Cane than I thought earlier today.
Sincerely, you all fail (especially Liang, as always, holy crap, it's beyond words). Thank you. Roro out.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:09:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ruciza
Your numbers do not take tactics into account. Alpha strike is always missing in the calculations of those who whine. EW is always missing. Support is missing in general, except maybe ECM in the ECM whining contests. Telling me one part of the sum sucks because the numbers are 10% off, that is silly.
No my dear, alpha strike is all that the Muninn has. Well, what little advantage there is in it, these days. It's all we ever bring up with regard to the Muninn: the ability to alpha strike frigates before they get up to speed.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:10:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ruciza For the love of TomB, I apologize to myself that I ever posted in this thread and that I had good words for people here. Having the "numbers" now before me in detail, I notice that the Muninn is even more awesome in comparison to the Zealot and the Cane than I thought earlier today.
Sincerely, you all fail (especially Liang, as always). Thank you. Roro out.
Coming from the guy that thinks AC Muninns are hot shit, but doesn't actually fly them... I'm hurt. I'm crying, really.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:13:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Ruciza Zactly. What everyone else seems to forget is that you can actually do stuff and make things happen. Create the environment suitable to you.
You can't control what everyone brings to a fight. They bring cruisers, BC's, or BS's to the fight ant the Muninn is useless. They bring friggies and you do pretty well until they outrun your tracking.
Had you brought (for example) a Zealot, you'd do about as well against frigs, and much much better against the heavier ships. I've *BEEN* in this situation. I flew a Muninn for months on end... and this is really the truth of it: - Against frigs, you're awesome... if you can lock them before they get moving. - Against anything larger, you should have brought another ship (really, *ANY* other ship would have done)
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Ruciza
Minmatar The Feminists
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:27:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I've *BEEN* in this situation. I flew a Muninn for months on end... and this is really the truth
Ah yes, the truth. I see.
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bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.09.02 17:45:00 -
[80]
I love my Muninns to bits.
I loved Muninns years ago when alpha counted, but they only had PG for THREE (you heard right) 720 II's.
I still love it now, and so do lts of other people.
HOWEVER
I never make the mistake of actually thinking it's a good ship. The only people that do genuinely believe they are a worthy ship as they are at the moment are those WHO HAVE NEVER FLOWN A ZEALOT/EAGLE.
Unless you really think that blowing up Tech1 frigates is all a HAC should be good for, cos thats all a Muninn can do with any degree of reliability.
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Jodie Amille
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.02 18:10:00 -
[81]
Just IMO, but drop those two "utility" highslots, give +1 mid and +1 low and a tracking boost to arties and I think it will be a good ship
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.02 18:16:00 -
[82]
Liang just leave, I never wanted you posting here and i was wondering how long before you came shouting all your crap.
Nobody cares what you think, nobody wants you in the this post or on any other post in the forum.
Go flame/troll elsewhere and just leave quietly.
-Not Liang (thank god.)
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Sinaitra
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Posted - 2008.09.02 18:21:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Sinaitra on 02/09/2008 18:21:08 This is by the way my second post ever and I barely read the forums and I already know how annoying you are liang.
Must tell you something about yourself.
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Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.09.02 18:21:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Delichon
Originally by: Cpt Branko Munnin fits into the Minmatar philosophy only if the Minmatar philosophy is "must suck, because we're capless".
... AND VERTICAL!
But back on topic - since Muninns suck so obviously, can someone explain me why these guys use 5 Muninns in a dedicated nano-gang. (fits are locked on their killboard, but you can find their muninn fits on the Goodfellas killboard)
These are not some run-of-the-mill gankers, they are good at what they do. Why they use Muninns and not Zealots?
I think I know the answer. It probably has something to do with focus fire and ability to generate half of average Vagas EHP (and full EHP of an untanked falcon) with a volley from 5 ships...
Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :)
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.02 18:22:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Sinaitra Liang just leave, I never wanted you posting here and i was wondering how long before you came shouting all your crap.
Nobody cares what you think, nobody wants you in the this post or on any other post in the forum.
Go flame/troll elsewhere and just leave quietly.
-Not Liang (thank god.)
Panties twist much? --------- If the Thorax was a car it would look like this |
Kirkus Jameus
Amarr Southern Cross Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.02 19:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Satura
Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :) But they also have like 4-6 Falcons... ^^
I just looked at about 12-15 kills on this KB. Only one had Muninn's in the gang. Zealots and Ishtars (along with the Falcons) were what I saw the most of.
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Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.09.02 19:07:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kirkus Jameus
Originally by: Satura
Yup, SoT likes muninns, and sentry ishtars the most. And they pretty much pwn stuff with those gangs. The alpha is pretty insane, and you can't RR in time if you have logistics. Gj to their muninn pilots. :) But they also have like 4-6 Falcons... ^^
I just looked at about 12-15 kills on this KB. Only one had Muninn's in the gang. Zealots and Ishtars (along with the Falcons) were what I saw the most of.
Look deeper perhaps, i know vs. what i was fighting. |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2008.09.02 20:41:00 -
[88]
The Muninn needs another mid slot. Or the Muninn needs different bonuses. or the Muninn needs another low slot. Or the Muninn needs a lot of speed.
It needs something so it doesnt suck.
If you think corp is different than a guild or clan you have some insecurity issues.
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Pan Fairchild
Atropos Asylum
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Posted - 2008.09.02 20:46:00 -
[89]
Our ships have tanks? I thought it was just my saftey blanket. Gunboat = fit gyros... increase falloff range and your talkin the good stuff
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:39:00 -
[90]
Originally by: bldyannoyed My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit)
Zealot fit plx? I'm curious and I always like zealot fits. |
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:51:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: bldyannoyed My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit)
Zealot fit plx? I'm curious and I always like zealot fits.
Something along these lines -
[Zealot, beam antisupport] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Targeting System Subcontroller I Targeting System Subcontroller I
Personally I would favour a pulse version (that which lyria uses in IAC in latest vid)
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Scrutari
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Posted - 2008.09.03 00:58:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Captator
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: bldyannoyed My Zealot setup does 550DPS @ 36Km in its anti-support fit (which is basically the same as my Muninn fit)
Zealot fit plx? I'm curious and I always like zealot fits.
Something along these lines -
[Zealot, beam antisupport] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range
Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M Heavy Beam Laser II, Amarr Navy Multifrequency M
Targeting System Subcontroller I Targeting System Subcontroller I
Personally I would favour a pulse version (that which lyria uses in IAC in latest vid)
Ah beams that'll do it. Yeah, I use a pulse version and it works beautifully. caps out at just over 500 dps with scorch, but that's at like 65km, and it does over 600 at 22km with MF. __________________________________
Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.03 02:00:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Sinaitra Liang just leave, I never wanted you posting here and i was wondering how long before you came shouting all your crap.
Nobody cares what you think, nobody wants you in the this post or on any other post in the forum.
Go flame/troll elsewhere and just leave quietly.
-Not Liang (thank god.)
I lol'd
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.03 02:35:00 -
[94]
Originally by: AstroPhobic I lol'd
Funnily enough, so did I.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Kryss'tal
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Posted - 2008.09.03 05:20:00 -
[95]
I haven't flown one of these in over a year, and I haven't seen anyone fly one since I can't remember.
Sniping ships suck. Half the ships in the game can close with a sniper in a few short seconds due to the overwhelming prevalence of nanoships. The entire idea behind long range support is moot, if what you're shooting at can get under your guns in seconds and then kill you in less time than it took to fly towards you.
What this ship desperately needs is a LOT more PG and another mid slot. Then maybe it will start to fit in with the rest of the damage dealing HAC's in the game.
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.03 06:22:00 -
[96]
Liang, you missed my point in Drake+Bassilisk comparison.
1 Bas may suck compared to 1 Onerios. 1 Drake may suck compared to 1 Harbi.
But if 7 Drakes + 3 Bas pwn 3 Onerios + 7 Harbies, that saying that either Drake or bas suck is counterintuitive. I am ok if my ship "sucks" in 1 on 1 comparison as long as it kills stuff more effectively in a properly set situation and gang than anything my enemy can master. It is the KMs that matter in the end, not the figures.
For Muninn a proper curcumstance seems to be a) 3-4 additional munnins, all set in a similar fit b) fast Rappiers to web the primary c) ECM to mitigate poor tank. Yeah, it is not a cookie-cutter nano-vaga, where "the more - the merrier" approach is used - which would make it less interesting for individual pilots ("Why should I train a specialized ship, that require a specialized gang that my corp can't provide?")
But ability to generate out of the box ideas, compile them into out of the box tactics is what make Eve a real-time strategy rather than FPS.
FPS is what you have on SiSi.
P.S. another example: t1 cloak is a weak pvp module. Raven with t1 cloak is an awful pvp ship. But in proper curcumstances... Can you say "Burn Eden"? ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.03 06:44:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Delichon Liang, you missed my point in Drake+Bassilisk comparison.
I didn't miss your comparison. As you state it, it does not apply to the Muninn. The Muninn is strictly good against small ships and in small numbers. After that, you should have brought a different ship (Zealot/Eagle/Cerb/Etc).
The biggest offender is really the ultra tiny clip.
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Havohej
The Defias Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.09.03 06:51:00 -
[98]
I only really red first page, and I can't be arsed to go play with EFT or w/e, but most of the people on front page were complaining about arty tracking and how arty generally sucks... seems to me that, once everybody gets slowed down by a speed nerf, arty should become just a little bit more effect by default?
Originally by: CCP Explorer You can still steal their stuff.
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.03 07:03:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Havohej I only really red first page, and I can't be arsed to go play with EFT or w/e, but most of the people on front page were complaining about arty tracking and how arty generally sucks... seems to me that, once everybody gets slowed down by a speed nerf, arty should become just a little bit more effect by default?
Though it's a good thought, no. There have been dozens of threads about why artillery sucks, but there are a vast number of reasons for it.
A few: - HP Boost reduced effectiveness of alpha - Other ships have roughly equivalent alpha and much better DPS - Poor tracking - Low clip size - Low DPS
A few bonuses: - Capless - Semi selectable damage types (this is not as real as it sounds)
-Liang -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
loot venda
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Posted - 2008.09.03 07:41:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Liang Nuren A few: - HP Boost reduced effectiveness of alpha - Other ships have roughly equivalent alpha and much better DPS - Poor tracking - Low clip size - Low DPS
A few bonuses: - Capless - Semi selectable damage types (this is not as real as it sounds)
-Liang
Actually, you have gone and missed the biggest reason: nano is trendy -> range advantages mean much less than how much you spent on your mwd.
Ships designed to work in medium-ranges tend to suck in these days where "get close -> pwn" is the dominant combat strategy.
I expect this will be a much more useful ship after the speed patch.
Also, you poor babies might care to remember that the poor eagle does less dps until the range is > 100km.
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Delichon
The First Foundation SOLAR FLEET
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Posted - 2008.09.03 08:05:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I didn't miss your comparison. As you state it, it does not apply to the Muninn. The Muninn is strictly good against small ships and in small numbers. After that, you should have brought a different ship (Zealot/Eagle/Cerb/Etc).
One question before I leave this thread:
The bolded part is it based on your experience? Like - you tried flying with multiple Muninns and specified support and it totally failed and you wished you were in a Cerb/Zealot.
Or you flew a Muninn yourself in a generic "x in ally chat" gang and didn't feel that you contribute as much to the fight as you could have been, if you were in a Cerb/Zealot? ------------------------------------------ All nerfs are meant to hurt you personally. They will be nerfing you directly next.
EVE A new game every 6 months. (c) Atomos Darksun |
bldyannoyed
Killed In Action
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Posted - 2008.09.03 13:12:00 -
[102]
This is from experience.
If you are the only Muninn (fast lock alpha fitted ofc) in a mixed size gang you will become some kind of celebrity as you seem to almost single handedly annihilate every frigate sized hull your gang comes across, pod everyone that needs podding and top all the cruiser KM's as your first 2 vollies tends to do half the damage a tech1 cruiser soaks up before it pops.
Having 2 Muninns in the same gang doesnt really do anyone any favors though, and as soon as you come against a competent hostile gang you'll feel useless. Sure you'll nail one or two of the hostile support ships in the first few seconds of the engagement, but once everything gets rolling you are no use to anyone.
If you get to 100KM to start trying to snipe even Tech 1 frigs can prove a problem, and if you hang around at close ( EMP ) range your dps is so low you would quite literally be better off in any other HAC, BC, hell even some Tech 1 Cruiser fits will out dps you. And at least you'd be able to tackle or possibly even survive being shot once or twice before you die.
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Satura
Most Wanted INC
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Posted - 2008.09.03 20:33:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Satura on 03/09/2008 20:34:53 The dps is not bad tbh. Got x18.5 and hit like a truck with EMP. Muninn kinda sucks when in 1-2 man gang when you need to gank something fast and you are reloading when the other guy is in half structure...that just happened to me.
edit: increase the clip size pls.:)
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Liang Nuren
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.03 21:11:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/09/2008 21:12:45
Originally by: Delichon
One question before I leave this thread:
The bolded part is it based on your experience? Like - you tried flying with multiple Muninns and specified support and it totally failed and you wished you were in a Cerb/Zealot.
Or you flew a Muninn yourself in a generic "x in ally chat" gang and didn't feel that you contribute as much to the fight as you could have been, if you were in a Cerb/Zealot?
This is from actual experience. In a gank situation on a gatecamp, Muninns/snipercanes will destroy most frig sized hulls that come through. But once the battle is joined with anything approaching a reasonable fight, your clip size, overall low DPS, and overall low hitpoints screw you royally.
I love my Muninn... it's great for ganking frigs on a gate... but once you fight something bigger than a frig, you should have brought something else.
-Liang
Ed: Read the above two posts. We've all been agreeing exactly on how the Muninn is best used... I've not disagreed with bld at all related to Muninn use and effects. -- I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent. -- Mahatma Gandhi |
Relicc
Caldari House InVisus
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Posted - 2008.09.04 05:01:00 -
[105]
You get em liang!
Even though I don't think the muninn is terrible, and I enjoy flying them quite a bit, its got some problems. __
07 Insurgency. |
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