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Why don't carebear corps or alliances fight back?

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Kale Kold Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:02:00 - [1] Me and a few corp members have always wondered why carebear corps don't fight back? Nowadays we are back to Lowsec pirating but there was a time when we did hisec griefing and extortion, etc.. but we found almost without execption that the target corps, even vastly outnumbering us would never fight back. I thought i would get a discussion going to ask why people think is? I use the term 'almost without execption' because on one occasion (and the only occasion) a war decc'ed alliance gathered a gang and tried to kill us, they where: Fatal Error. Alliance. I have the deepest respect for these guys! Even though they lost all their ships, they never ran, never smacked and fought until the last man. salutes This is a screenie of the killboard (a long time ago ) http://www.kalekold.net/misc/Engagement.jpg But why are other hisec carebear corps so cowardly? We all know they are rolling in ISK from the their constant lvl4 grinds. It's something we always discuss and can never understand why. Personal Record \| Corp Killboard
Alazontez Gallenteur	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:11:00 - [2] Edited by: Alazontez Gallenteur on 30/08/2008 17:12:19 A couple of responses to this from persoal observations. 1) ingrained mentality, Carebears come into the habit of just sitting back and letting the pirate take what they want (mostly this habit is gained from dealing with can flippers and mission loot stealers, as most of the time the consequences of fighting back are much worse than just letting them take it). 2) Lack of cohesion (sp?) especially militarily. Many carebear corps are a large clustering of many players with many clicks, they have come together to mine and mission and thats about it. There is no real military leader amongst the corp and the corp has never made effort to create any kind of militaristic unity (seeing how they are mission runners and miners located in empire space, they see no need to militarize because there should never be a need for combat short of wardeccing. Most would see the chance of wardeccing as being small because they are carebears and they do not participate in any activities that would warrant a wardeccing). 3) Lastly, most members of carebear corps lack any kind of pvp experience and the thought of pvp in some ways frightens them. This is because most carebears would rather grind isk than risk some of that isk to lose ships and learn some pvp. This is just my opinion from my personal perspective (being that I'm a carebear member of a carebear corp). Hope this helps bring some insight to the yarrs in C&P
leboe The Aftermath.	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:16:00 - [3] I wish with the apparent influx of starter merc corps this was changing, maybe it is? Could be (speculation) that in the past there was just the few elite and expensive mercs around who had a good rep and got jobs.
Kale Kold Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:17:00 - [4] Edited by: Kale Kold on 30/08/2008 17:18:37 Originally by: Alazontez Gallenteur 2) Lack of cohesion (sp?) especially militarily. Many carebear corps are a large clustering of many players with many clicks, they have come together to mine and mission and thats about it. There is no real military leader amongst the corp and the corp has never made effort to create any kind of militaristic unity (seeing how they are mission runners and miners located in empire space, they see no need to militarize because there should never be a need for combat short of wardeccing. Most would see the chance of wardeccing as being small because they are carebears and they do not participate in any activities that would warrant a wardeccing) That's one idea we came up with. Carebear corps and alliances just don't have any leaders or FC's. Whereas on the other hand, almost all pirate corps have a very strong leadership hierarchy and you know exactly who makes the decisions and who is in command at any given time. If the FC or eyes says run or warp to the gate you do it, immediately, no questions asked!!! Same when i give orders, people do it, or ships are lost! Personal Record \| Corp Killboard
Khraunus	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:20:00 - [5] Because a mining laser can only be activated on an asteroid.
Gabriel Alazontez	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:21:00 - [6] Edited by: Gabriel Alazontez on 30/08/2008 17:22:51 Originally by: Kale Kold Originally by: Alazontez Gallenteur 2) Lack of cohesion (sp?) especially militarily. Many carebear corps are a large clustering of many players with many clicks, they have come together to mine and mission and thats about it. There is no real military leader amongst the corp and the corp has never made effort to create any kind of militaristic unity (seeing how they are mission runners and miners located in empire space, they see no need to militarize because there should never be a need for combat short of wardeccing. Most would see the chance of wardeccing as being small because they are carebears and they do not participate in any activities that would warrant a wardeccing) That's one idea we came up with. Carebear corps and alliances just don't have any leaders or FC's. Whereas on the other hand, almost all pirate corps have a very strong leadership hierarchy and you know exactly who makes the decisions and who is in command at any given time. If the FC or eyes says run or warp to the gate you do it, immediately, no questions asked!!! Me and my fellow carebear corp directors are hoping be a corp that breaks this tradition (as pointed out in number 2). We left a carebear corp for various reasons and spotted number 2 as being a weakness. Upon forming our corp we are devising strategies, one of which is to establish a strong CoC and military mindset, so that when the time comes for recruitment and we start growing in strength and numbers we might actually be able to stick around and not follow the carebear mold.
Kiki Arnolds Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:23:00 - [7] If you take a bunch of carebears and put them up against an organized small pvp gang, they are going to get ripped to shreds. They lack the experiance, fitting knowledge, and support skills needed to win a pvp battle. Thier only shot would be to heavily outnumber their enemy. Even then, without a minimally compotent PVP FC, they may still loose... Consider 5 Active Tank Ravens + 5 Drakes vs 5 Remote Rep, buffer tanked battleships and a falcon... 10 v 6, but my money is on the 6... Of course if you try to blob, they will see you coming, if at all compotent they will have scouts out... so you will never actually be able to engage them with the blob... What Carebears don't have that their enemy will Experiance collecting intel (both for hunting, and early warning of incoming ships) Pilots trained to fly T2 ships, recons in paticular Setups designed for small gang battleship fights PvP centric skills, like the ability to overload weapons, ECM, Remote reps (to some extent) etc... Only after you overcome the above do you run in to the willingness of carebears to pilot thier ships in to combat... ç¦
Nexus Kinnon A Few Good Men.	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Kale Kold http://www.kalekold.net/misc/Engagement.jpg You might say those guys made a Fatal Error. (I'm so so sorry)
Alazontez Gallenteur	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:24:00 - [9] ^ \| \| Thats me, for some reason forgot to switch and the forum default posted as my alt
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:37:00 - [10] Because once they fight back they aren't Carebear corps anymore Seriously though: #2 gets them slaughtered the first time they try to fight back After that they view #3 as a requirement because they got taught the first time they can't win. It might be years before they try to fight again, and only if they get enough new blood in or new leadership. ------------------------------------------------- Originally by: CCP Wrangler Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
DubanFP Caldari Out of Order Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:43:00 - [11] Edited by: DubanFP on 30/08/2008 17:43:53 Because if they knew how to go about fighting back they would no longer qualify as a "carebear corp". _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely outclassed
Lubomir Penev interimo	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Kale Kold but we found almost without execption that the target corps, even vastly outnumbering us would never fight back. Comedy cruiser ops to give them a few kills at the beginning can do wonder to put them in the mood. Tbh if it looks hopeless to them you can understand their position. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Sirius Problem Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2008.08.30 17:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Sirius Problem on 30/08/2008 18:04:48 Most carebears have discovered that the fastest way to end a war is to bore the aggressors. Dock-up, set a long skill, switch to out of corp alt and keep mining. The few times that they may have to do this is far easier than the effort required to train/muster a skilled fighting force. The die-hard industrialists are just not interested in combat at all. A long time ago, on "good guy" character, I was the "security director" for a carebear corp. We were war dec'd a few times, and it was just impossible to get the membership to train up a few skills to even attempt a simple T1 frig swarm. The bear is a different creature who plays the game for completely different reasons than you or me. If it was such that when a carebear corp war dec'd your corp, you had to get out there in barges and beat them at mining to win the war, would you do it? Would you stop training Recon or HAC V so you could buff those mining skills? Me neither. ---- Train more. Whine less.
Alazontez Gallenteur Xynomorph Incorporated	Posted - 2008.08.30 18:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Sirius Problem Edited by: Sirius Problem on 30/08/2008 18:04:48 Most carebears have discovered that the fastest way to end a war is to bore the aggressors. True Originally by: Sirius Problem The bear is a different creature who plays the game for completely different reasons than you or me. If it was such that when a carebear corp war dec'd your corp, you had to get out there in barges and beat them at mining to win the war, would you do it? Would you stop training Recon or HAC V so you could buff those mining skills? Me neither. This conjured a hilarious image for me of some pirate in a cruiser with some dual diodes pumping away at a rock until the carebear in a hulk shows up and activates his strip miners on a rock, popping the pirate. ----------------------------------------------- There is no honor in war, only victory and defeat.
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.08.30 18:16:00 - [15] I find most carebears dont WANT to fight, so thats why they dont...
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Greckor Monmouth I find most carebears dont WANT to fight, so thats why they dont... this is pretty much it, when i ask "why wont you fight me" they say ether, they would loose going 1 vs 1 or they dont want to fight because its violent. unless they have 3 vs 1 they are not assured victory so they dont engage. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Absimi Liard Gallente Confederate Miners Union of Eve space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:19:00 - [17] I can't speak to corps or alliances. But I'll tell you why I wouldn't fight, and as a carebear I think I'm qualified to answer this. I run because if I fight I lose. I'm an industrialist, the biggest thing I ever fly is an Itty IV, and the ship I'm in most often is a shuttle. I go to 0.0 for my bpo research and copies. Almost all my skills are focussed on building the things you buy and fly. I have nothing to offer in combat, absolutely nothing. Hell, I don't even like space, I hate leaving the station at all. So I couldn't see why I would fight back, I'm dead either way. Besides, space is boring. How can I work with blueprints and play with minerals in space? Stations are much more fun . . . . I don't get why a missioner wouldn't fight back though. At least they can fly a battleship, and have some shooting skills. But for traders and industrialists this is a no brainer. -abs
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:35:00 - [18] Sirius nailed it in one. Now, me, I can fit and fly a standard template T2 neutron gankthron with ogre IIs, a covops, plate rax, rr or neut domi so combat skills aren't the whole problem. Plenty of people in station with me can field capable combat fits. However, for roaming gangs we're mostly going to use the 'bore' approach to defending. Cloaky recon blobs supported by falcons are negative infinity fun to fight. Defending is 1000000000000000000000x harder than attacking. And it gains nothing -- I'm in a carebear corp in a farming alliance, we have zero use for smacking people in the face with our epeens. Docking games are the best way to 'win' an encounter. Want to fight? Pick a target with similar interests. Want to camp a system for a week hoping for a t1 fit NPCer kill? You know what to do. And yeah, I challenge you to either a hulk-off or a t2 production sprint! You actually have a chance, my industry skills are rather feeble.
Kazang Gallente KnightRaven Alliance	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:41:00 - [19] They are called carebears because they dont like to fight, i would have thought that was obvious. Some people dont like pvp, these are the carebears, erm i cant think of any more simple way of saying it. carebear = cookies and veldspar carebear /= pewpew and savage brutal shootouts There is no why there just are.
techzer0 Minmatar Mafia	Posted - 2008.08.30 19:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Lithalnas Originally by: Greckor Monmouth I find most carebears dont WANT to fight, so thats why they dont... this is pretty much it, when i ask "why wont you fight me" they say ether, they would loose going 1 vs 1 or they dont want to fight because its violent. unless they have 3 vs 1 they are not assured victory so they dont engage. Yep, same goes for probing mission runners. They will shoot at my covops, but I bring out my sleipnir or mega and it's 15 mins of waiting around bored for me. There are pirates with the same idles (ok, ideals, but if you know who i'm talking about...) they'll gank on a gate all day, but it's damn hard to get them out of dock range for an actual fight when you bring something that has a 0.01% chance of winning against them. ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Tamarana	Posted - 2008.08.30 20:14:00 - [21] Usually, industrailists and traders don't combat because they have not the expertise, the skills and the time to do it properly. To setup a war party, train the needed skills, and go out and combat for real would consumer invaluable time. I'm a POS carebear and I usually run under the sensors of pirates and hostiles all days. But, apart very rare events, there is no need to worry when pirate are able to nail me every three months at most. They make my life more interesting, adding a thrill when I jump in an unscouted system, and so on. A part this, sometimes my corp organize an expedition with BS, BC and so on, around where we live, and I would say that we are not able to find a pirate party undocked. Sometimes 10-15 BS-BC do this effect. But, also, we use capital support when doing high stake operations.
ThoRHammer6213 Gallente MINER's GUILD INC	Posted - 2008.08.31 00:19:00 - [22] Edited by: ThoRHammer6213 on 31/08/2008 00:22:41 Edited by: ThoRHammer6213 on 31/08/2008 00:19:34 I don't know about the other industrialists/traders/miners, all I know is that I'm here to make, and acquire ISKs, ships and goods. I don't know why that is my total aim and goal, but it is. Anything outside this goal is a waste of my time. Fighting over nothing is a waste. Hunting for other people is a waste. Suicide ganking, wardecing, or 0.0 sec jumping is a waste of my time. I know most people are in EVE to make a few bucks, build up a big ship, and then go looking for the shit, but for guys like me thats a waste of money and time, and resources. Sure I've been blown up a few times. One Pirate once said too me on the chat channel: "Why don't you fight back?" I told him to do his worse because the insurance payout for my ship would be more than I'm mining on this run, therefore in many ways he was actually making ME a profit. Then I called him a dirty name and he let me have it. And as mentioned the insurance payout allowed me to invest in a better ship in which to go mining in. I planned ahead for this BTW. All industrialists/traders/miners KNOW they are going to lose ships and material due to pirates, gankers, and mercs, which is why we plan for that ahead monetarily, so your exploits against us doesn't cost us too much time and money getting back into the serious business of ISK acquisition. We are woefully aware that in the world of EVE we are the PREY, therefoe we have to become smart rats in a den of wolves. Our job is to be able to put up with all this PVP, suicide ganking, and pirating nonsense while somehow making a profit. Some of us are good at this, while some of us are pretty bad, but on the whole I think we are fairing very well. So we are labeled "Carebear" because we don't want to fight? I think this is funny because you are assuming that our not wanting to fight is a weakness. You are assuming that we are here to fight like you, which we are not. We are here to grow big pockets, and to be able to buy a whole lot of stuff. When we finally reach that dizzyingly height of ISK acquisition THEN, and only then do we entertain the idea of warfare because we have acquired a financial industry of ISKS in which to train and sustain fights, wars, suicide ganks, and even piracy if that's what we so choose, so I advice some of you to be very careful of the so-called Carebears that you abuse today because later on down the line some of them are going to be looking you up, and they will have the monetary might to erase you from the game. Now back to mining... "I shall Dispense No MercY"
Joe Starbreaker Starbreaker Frigateers	Posted - 2008.08.31 00:44:00 - [23] I like to come at my war targets with frigates or cruisers and let them beat me a few times. This helps them to enjoy the war and encourages them to undock. If you start your war with a RR battleship fleet camping their HQ station and blowing away everything that undocks, it's no wonder they don't want to fight you. In fact even as the war progresses, I would make a point of not bringing too much overkill. I'd rather do my best to match their strength, to test my skills and tactics and make it more fun. Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto All piracy is built upon honoring one's word.
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.08.31 00:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 31/08/2008 00:50:01 It's funny, back in the day, before GHSC was major, we'd get these tiny contracts to deal with pirates beating up a small carebear corp. Except, halfway through the contract, regardless of who it was against, the carebears would start worrying about hiring us, because it might piss off other pirates in the area. Carebears... truly live in a constant atmosphere of terror, and I do not envy them for this. I cannot imagine being afraid of everyone around you like that.
Nilkarus Gallente Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.08.31 01:31:00 - [25] It's the natural order of things. Don't bother questioning it. Just know your place among the rungs. Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated - Recruiting
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.08.31 03:49:00 - [26] Isn't this tautological? Carebears are the people who aren't going to fight back, by definition. Would you be calling them carebears if they did? Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Larkonis Trassler Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.08.31 04:19:00 - [27] Originally by: ThoRHammer6213 Edited by: ThoRHammer6213 on 31/08/2008 00:22:41 Edited by: ThoRHammer6213 on 31/08/2008 00:19:34 I don't know about the other industrialists/traders/miners, all I know is that I'm here to make, and acquire ISKs, ships and goods. I don't know why that is my total aim and goal, but it is. Anything outside this goal is a waste of my time. Fighting over nothing is a waste. Hunting for other people is a waste. Suicide ganking, wardecing, or 0.0 sec jumping is a waste of my time. I know most people are in EVE to make a few bucks, build up a big ship, and then go looking for the shit, but for guys like me thats a waste of money and time, and resources. Sure I've been blown up a few times. One Pirate once said too me on the chat channel: "Why don't you fight back?" I told him to do his worse because the insurance payout for my ship would be more than I'm mining on this run, therefore in many ways he was actually making ME a profit. Then I called him a dirty name and he let me have it. And as mentioned the insurance payout allowed me to invest in a better ship in which to go mining in. I planned ahead for this BTW. All industrialists/traders/miners KNOW they are going to lose ships and material due to pirates, gankers, and mercs, which is why we plan for that ahead monetarily, so your exploits against us doesn't cost us too much time and money getting back into the serious business of ISK acquisition. We are woefully aware that in the world of EVE we are the PREY, therefoe we have to become smart rats in a den of wolves. Our job is to be able to put up with all this PVP, suicide ganking, and pirating nonsense while somehow making a profit. Some of us are good at this, while some of us are pretty bad, but on the whole I think we are fairing very well. So we are labeled "Carebear" because we don't want to fight? I think this is funny because you are assuming that our not wanting to fight is a weakness. You are assuming that we are here to fight like you, which we are not. We are here to grow big pockets, and to be able to buy a whole lot of stuff. When we finally reach that dizzyingly height of ISK acquisition THEN, and only then do we entertain the idea of warfare because we have acquired a financial industry of ISKS in which to train and sustain fights, wars, suicide ganks, and even piracy if that's what we so choose, so I advice some of you to be very careful of the so-called Carebears that you abuse today because later on down the line some of them are going to be looking you up, and they will have the monetary might to erase you from the game. Now back to mining... And once you have reached those dizzying heights of ISK acquisition because you have no experience of PVP you go out and buy the biggest nastiest ship you can resulting in assorted LOLmails for all to see. Assumption of Risk
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.08.31 04:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Larkonis Trassler And once you have reached those dizzying heights of ISK acquisition because you have no experience of PVP you go out and buy the biggest nastiest ship you can resulting in assorted LOLmails for all to see. No, ISK buyers do that. Read what he wrote. He is more than capable of doing analysis of his combat abilities and his odds in P&P&P&P&P&P&P&P&PvP, even with a pimped out ship. People smart enough to do analysis don't get ganked in a faction lolfit, they play around with frigates, cruisers etc. on alts instead. And once bored of carebearing they engage in proscribed blob on blob fashion with falcon support. Not every carebear is identical to every other carebear. Some are very good at what they do, others are the "minerals I mine are free lol" kids willing to autopilot all their worldly posessions in a hauler through a 70-kills-in-the-last-hour Rancer gatecamp. Good thing, too.
Monkey Saturday Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.08.31 04:43:00 - [29] Answer is this: They don't need to. They don't mind not logging in for a couple weeks. They, like most of us, have alts they can play the game with. Solution? Dec large and active carebear corps. Better your chances, its really all you can do. Can't force 'em to play unfortunately Thanks for the Maulus BPO nerf! :D
Mr Jollys Minmatar Night Theifs Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2008.08.31 06:27:00 - [30] Originally by: Lithalnas Originally by: Greckor Monmouth I find most carebears dont WANT to fight, so thats why they dont... this is pretty much it, when i ask "why wont you fight me" they say ether, they would loose going 1 vs 1 or they dont want to fight because its violent. unless they have 3 vs 1 they are not assured victory so they dont engage. Sad thing is, it can be said, a lot of pirates won't fight 1 vs 1 either, if they are not assured victory, they don't engage

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