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Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.25 06:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
I honestly just want the communities opinion on this, but do complexes (both rated and unrated) need to be redone?
If so, what do you think needs to be changed about them and why? |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
For those that would like some background/context for this special snowflakes posting, I direct you to here
To summarize, OP believes that PVE content that one experiences in plexes constitutes risk that is deserving of greater rewards. OP believes said rewards should be in the form of guaranteed drops. You know, drops of those rare things that have value because they're rare.
Now can one of you fine capsuleers tell me what happens when things stop being rare?
Oh and OP also thinks 4 doing a site 4 times means one is entitled to some sort of reward. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh and just so its clear, as you seem to be a bit slow.
No, I don't think plexes need to be changed. At least not in regards to drops. |

Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
I am simply asking the community Salazar, but thank you for your input. For one that considers himself to not be "slow" , you should know I am asking to get perspective on my own opinions. For future reference, any criticism is welcome as long as it pertains to objectivity and not a lack of showmanship and arrogance. Thank you. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:23:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't appreciate you criticizing my posting.
Also....hahahaha |

Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
The fact that you took the time to do that says something about you already. And to be honest, in hindsight, that was one of the best things that has happened to me in the serious business of internet spaceships. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
How many more times do you think I can get you to post? |

Azemar
Order of the Silver Dragons Eternal Evocations
1
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Depends, who's the real troll?
http://i.imgur.com/OQeZR.gif |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:38:00 -
[9] - Quote
Keep trying. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
375
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Posted - 2012.03.25 07:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
In before the lock (or at least silly draconian cleaning).
If anything, plexes should be more variable. But as far as loot drop changes: no. I like rolling the dice, and if that deters some from exploration, good. It's getting crowded out there. |
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St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
561
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Posted - 2012.03.25 08:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually, he has a point. Something needs to be done about complexes.
For far too long has CCP catered to the whims of the exploration crowd.
Not only do they get endless streams of faction/deadspace modules, earning billions of ISK every day, breaking the entire economy worse than incursions, they get bounties and salvage from exploration sites without having worked for the standings to access them like mission runners did.
If anything, CCP should remove all faction loot from exploration sites and put them inside asteroids in mining belts.
Miners are the only true explorers in the game nowadays, meticulously inspecting every single asteroid in EVE, an honourable vocation of sisyphean proportions for which they are not nearly compensated enough for. |

JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2012.03.25 13:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Actually, he has a point. Something needs to be done about complexes.
For far too long has CCP catered to the whims of the exploration crowd.
Not only do they get endless streams of faction/deadspace modules, earning billions of ISK every day, breaking the entire economy worse than incursions, they get bounties and salvage from exploration sites without having worked for the standings to access them like mission runners did.
So far so good +1
St Mio wrote: If anything, CCP should remove all faction loot from exploration sites and put them inside asteroids in mining belts.
Not really agree here -0.5
But yeah complexes are overpowered.
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
1080
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Posted - 2012.03.25 14:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
I completely agree with Salazar, exploration drops are fine as-is. The moment drops stop being rare, they stop being valuable too. Any buff to site drops is a nerf to site value as the supply/demand balance shifts. |

Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
172
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Posted - 2012.03.25 16:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Azemar wrote:I honestly just want the communities opinion on this, but do complexes (both rated and unrated) need to be redone?
If so, what do you think needs to be changed about them and why?
Actually sure. The two things that sorta bug me are:
1. There are a number of complexes where you come up against a formidable spawn, but basically all you have to do is pop the "boss" , bookmark his wreck, warp and let the site respawn. Granted I like being able to finish them quickly like this, but it seems a little like cheating.
2. Sites that have a first room that the gate is locked. I think it would be more interesting to change the unlock mechanics. Make the keys one time use. Make the first room respawn on a timer. So if you make it thru the gate,someone coming behind you would have to wait for the respawn to get their own key. Buys you a little time. Could also make lowsec more interesting (can I finish before the pirates get a respawn and make it through).
I recall an mmo years ago where many missions were like this. It was slightly more tedious if you are running as a group as everyone woud have to get a key from the first room. But overall it sometimes made for interesting competition. |

St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
562
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Posted - 2012.03.25 17:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:1. There are a number of complexes where you come up against a formidable spawn, but basically all you have to do is pop the "boss" , bookmark his wreck, warp and let the site respawn. Granted I like being able to finish them quickly like this, but it seems a little like cheating.
The Gurista DED 5/10 used* to be like this; all the acceleration gates were unlocked, but you had to slow boat or AB (no MWD allowed) to the gates while tanking 1000~15000 dps for two or three rooms, then kill the overseer, BM, warp out, despawn, back in etc. This "gauntlet" style site was a lot more fun than the L4 style plexes where you basically had to shoot everything to get to the next room.
(* They fixed it, you need to kill everything now.)
Was gonna write something about how the key/respawn is similar to the current static DED sites but then common sense hit me, since their respawn time if 30+min each, and the site stays in place afterwards, whereas a "proper" exploration site wouldn't.
|

OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
139
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Posted - 2012.03.25 17:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
I also don't think guaranteed drops are any good. If anything, I would like more variation in the drops, maybe even more variation in spawns. As much as I use EvE Survival and such sites for reports on the sites, it feels a little like cheating. I would like to see more need for adaptation. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
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Posted - 2012.03.25 17:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
OllieNorth wrote:As much as I use EvE Survival and such sites for reports on the sites, it feels a little like cheating.
So don't do it.
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5nipe
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.25 18:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
[quote=Azemar]I honestly just want the communities opinion on this, but do complexes (both rated and unrated) need to be redone
If so, what do you think needs to be changed about them and why?[/quote
Asking the question in such plain form, expect wide range of answers. You need to be a bit more specific, like hi/low or 0.0 plexes you are talking about
I would not get into drop rate issue, which is not really big deal and been discussed hundreds times already
What really bother me is imba of hi sec DED rewards, especially Gurista's ones. I just went out for my little weekend hi sec probing voyage and got about billion from the very first GSO I have found. I do not have any problems with such grate loot I got myself, neither I have problems that anybody else have such luck and got insta "rich". The thing is, hi sec rewards too attractive compare for low sec, especially considering the fact of almost no risk in hi sec exploration. The sites themselves are bored as any mission at the end of the day. Only rewards make them exiting. And some sites, for example, Guristas Watch or Vigil, in terms of difficulty and rewards nothing close to 3/10 or 4/10. Sure, you can finish last step of Watch in couple of minutes, and get A-Type small SB. But the probability rate of such expedition even less than the same SB drop from 3/10. So, what I am talking about is a bit tweaking of drop tables, not drop rates. For example, I honestly believe, expeditions for hi sec to low sec should drop B-Type medium gear, if follow the logic of low-sec non rated escalations, leading to 0.0 and dropping A-Type medium gear
The second thing what should be looked in a bit, is the fact, that exploration is not mini profession anymore, as it used to be. And there is almost no difference between seasoned explorers and someone who just got a Tengu or dual boxing with couple of 2 weeks old chars in terms of requirements to be successful explorer in hi/low sec. o.o is a bit different story tho.
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 18:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
5nipe wrote:
Asking the question in such plain form, expect wide range of answers. You need to be a bit more specific, like hi/low or 0.0 plexes you are talking about
I would not get into drop rate issue, which is not really big deal and been discussed hundreds times already
What really bother me is imba of hi sec DED rewards, especially Gurista's ones. I just went out for my little weekend hi sec probing voyage and got about billion from the very first GSO I have found. I do not have any problems with such grate loot I got myself, neither I have problems that anybody else have such luck and got insta "rich". The thing is, hi sec rewards too attractive compare for low sec, especially considering the fact of almost no risk in hi sec exploration. The sites themselves are bored as any mission at the end of the day. Only rewards make them exiting. And some sites, for example, Guristas Watch or Vigil, in terms of difficulty and rewards nothing close to 3/10 or 4/10. Sure, you can finish last step of Watch in couple of minutes, and get A-Type small SB. But the probability rate of such expedition even less than the same SB drop from 3/10. So, what I am talking about is a bit tweaking of drop tables, not drop rates. For example, I honestly believe, expeditions for hi sec to low sec should drop B-Type medium gear, if follow the logic of low-sec non rated escalations, leading to 0.0 and dropping A-Type medium gear
The second thing what should be looked in a bit, is the fact, that exploration is not mini profession anymore, as it used to be. And there is almost no difference between seasoned explorers and someone who just got a Tengu or dual boxing with couple of 2 weeks old chars in terms of requirements to be successful explorer in hi/low sec. o.o is a bit different story tho.
There's nothing imba about the reward distribution among security. The same logic applies to high as it does for low. High can lead to a-type small in low, and low can lead to a-type medium in null. And high has a site that drops a-type small and low has a site that drops a-type medium.
Gurista loot is special because of the demand for shield modules. High sec rewards are attractive in Caldari space because the modules are in high demand. What needs to change is armor mods need to have more differentiation so that loot from Sansha/Bloods/Serps is actually different.
And exploration is still a mini profession bro. Two week characters definitely don't see consistent success. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 18:28:00 -
[20] - Quote
Also, ban Tech 3 ships from high sec sites. |
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 18:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Per request, this is not a serious post.
Trololololololol
Love you Mio. |

5nipe
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.25 19:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:
There's nothing imba about the reward distribution among security. The same logic applies to high as it does for low. High can lead to a-type small in low, and low can lead to a-type medium in null. And high has a site that drops a-type small and low has a site that drops a-type medium.
Well, I can agree with you logic about A-Type -low/ A-Med 0.0 but that is not a point. My point is that hi-sec non rated combat last step drop table can be revised at some point to make them a bit along with DED profitability. So, answering to OP questions, I think the "existing logic" can be changed.
Emperor Salazar wrote:
Gurista loot is special because of the demand for shield modules. High sec rewards are attractive in Caldari space because the modules are in high demand. What needs to change is armor mods need to have more differentiation so that loot from Sansha/Bloods/Serps is actually different.
I think we have had discussion about prices for different mods from different faction, so no need to explain here basics of market economy.
Emperor Salazar wrote: And exploration is still a mini profession bro. Two week characters definitely don't see consistent success.
Well, we still consider it as mini-profession, but I would rather say "specialization". You may agree or not, but today environment is nothing close to what is used to be , let's say 3 years ago.
According 2 weeks characters. well, you may be not be able to compete with armadas of Tengues, but definitely can pull out some serious ISK within short period of time.
From another hand, if someone can fly a Drake, lets say 6 month old char, nothing stops him to became competitive explorer within 2 weeks using 2nd char for probing.
Should I write Exploration Almanac II for this matter? :-)
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Melina Lin
Universal Frog
23
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Posted - 2012.03.25 19:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Also, ban Tech 3 ships from high sec sites.
fixed |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
5nipe wrote:
According 2 weeks characters. well, you may be not be able to compete with armadas of Tengues, but definitely can pull out some serious ISK within short period of time.
From another hand, if someone can fly a Drake, lets say 6 month old char, nothing stops him to became competitive explorer within 2 weeks using 2nd char for probing.
Should I write Exploration Almanac II for this matter? :-)
Good god what the hell.
Your almanac blog crap is irrelevant. You're an experienced explorer. Any one of us experienced explorers can do the same damn thing and make a decent amount of isk. Your almanac is great for showing noobs that they don't absolutely have to have a T3 to get lucky, but thats only if you know what you're doing. Most people that are new to exploration don't know crap.
As for "3 years ago, etc etc" thats because 3 years ago we didn't have Apocrypha. Exploration was a joke back then. The scanning mechanism was a joke. Only people that enjoyed sitting around doing nothing while they waited bothered with it. Exploration as a miniprofession was mini because only a small amount of people actually enjoy inflicting that sort of torture upon themselves.
Now, exploration is, yes, a lot easier. But to compete, there are plenty of tricks and skills one only gets with experience and those are the things that make the difference between a 6 month drake and an experienced explorer. That drake pilot will not be a "competitive" explorer by any means. He might get lucky from time to time. But competitive? No.
And anyone that uses an alt for solely probing shouldn't be factored in as well. That second account could be doing much more useful things in terms of isk gaining. |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
497
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
5nipe wrote: So, answering to OP questions, I think the "existing logic" can be changed.
why? |

Mocktar Olachenko
0
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Posted - 2012.03.25 20:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
Loot from complexes is fine. RNG is RNG, sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. Last week one night I ran 8 GSO's. The first six had nothing but OPEs and trash loot. Right after telling myself "after next site I'm going to bed" I ran one more and got a shield booster and invuln field, 850 mil just like that. The unpredictability of exploration is what keeps it fun for me, you just never know when you're gonna make it big.
That said, if there was anything I could change to exploration it would be those awful mag sites (speaking for high sec, supposedly low sec ones got buffed but I'm not comfortable with low sec exploration quite yet). Very very rarely will I get a piece of T2 salvages; normally it's nothing but malfunctioning shield emitters, smashed triggers and the like. I think I've read that the average yield of a high sec radar are from 6-8 mil. What's the harm in buffing mags to at least that level of average yield? |

5nipe
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.03.25 21:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:[quote=5nipe So, answering to OP questions, I think the "existing logic" can be changed. [/quote
why?
Why? It is very good question. I don't think this forum exists for only reason to throw arrows left and right. But also for the reason to answers questions and express opinions. If you not agree with something and/or someone it doesn't mean you need to be rude Sorry, but nobody have monopoly to dictate me what I can and what I can't write here
EVE is sandbox game, but it is not static, and some changes here and there can makes this game more interesting, exiting and entertaining. If you think everything is just fine, and nothing should/can be changed, it is absolutely fine with me
According Almanac, I had no intention to teach experienced people, like you, what and how to do. It was written to show new players that there is something interesting in EVE, not only missions and mining. And, in fact it was mostly about Radars, no about DED
I know people who read it, joined channel and asked different questions. Some of them find exploration frustrating and didn't enjoyed much. Some got exited. I am happy that some of them still in touch with me
If you think blog is not any good, feel free go ahead and write something on your own :-) |

OfBalance
Caldari State
239
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Posted - 2012.03.25 21:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
Melina Lin wrote:Emperor Salazar wrote:Also, ban Tech 3 ships from high sec sites. fixed
fixed |

Bent Barrel
45
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Posted - 2012.03.25 21:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
make the rooms dynamic ... f.e. Serp 4/10, make at least 3-4 different 2nd rooms with even probability to spawn. Similar for the other rated plexes.
unrated I have not much experience with. I find them very rarely.
also +1 for the consumable gate keys ... just make it so that the gate locks after 2 minutes so gang can jump in some reasonable time frame.
drops are fine ... |

Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
500
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 21:15:00 -
[30] - Quote
5nipe wrote:
Why? It is very good question. I don't think this forum exists for only reason to throw arrows left and right. But also for the reason to answers questions and express opinions. If you not agree with something and/or someone it doesn't mean you need to be rude Sorry, but nobody have monopoly to dictate me what I can and what I can't write here
EVE is sandbox game, but it is not static, and some changes here and there can makes this game more interesting, exiting and entertaining. If you think everything is just fine, and nothing should/can be changed, it is absolutely fine with me
According Almanac, I had no intention to teach experienced people, like you, what and how to do. It was written to show new players that there is something interesting in EVE, not only missions and mining. And, in fact it was mostly about Radars, no about DED
I know people who read it, joined channel and asked different questions. Some of them find exploration frustrating and didn't enjoyed much. Some got exited. I am happy that some of them still in touch with me
If you think blog is not any good, feel free go ahead and write something on your own :-)
You wrote all that and didnt answer my question. I'm asking why you think there needs to be a change in the drops. You've yet to state why. I don't care that we have different opinions. But at least be able to give reasons for yours. I think things are balanced just fine. You don't. You should say why.
The only way I could see things being changed is high sec = c-type mods, low sec = b-type mods, null = a/x type mods. Faction mods in all 3.
Also, selective reading much? I said your guide was good for showing noobs the potential, but its ultimately irrelevant because....youre an experienced explorer. |
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