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Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
24
   |
Posted - 2012.03.25 07:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well, its clear to me that POS' were never designed to be lived from. Hense why CCP never bothered to put in place clear options to allow the seperation and protection of individual player assets. But with the expansion into wormhole space, it has become a fact that players now do live in POS', and have done so for sometime. So does anyone know a tried and tested way of ensuring individual players things from the hands of eve's many players, that would simply steal as many things as they can get their grubby hands on
From my extensive research, we simply decided to side-step the issue with the creation of a second POS. With our primary assets protected, newer players wouldn't be able to access them. Though this does not solve the issue in anyway, and the problem is still there for newer players
We then thought to buy a bunch of secure containers, but oh wait, they dont work in the corp hanger like stations. Not at all. They need to be used in space, rendering them completely useless. Why wouldn't they be allowed to work in the corp hanger is a mystery! Anchoring them just outside the shield, in range of the POS guns is a soution, but with the maximum of 3900m3 per container, you're screwed if your dealing with large amounts, which we are doing pretty much on a daily basis.
So we're left with the only way (that i can discover) which is to assign every player a specific tab. Great, assuming we only ever planned to have 7 players, which we already have more, and even then, renaming them renames all your tabs for all your structures! So that doesn't work either
And don't even get me started on the ship maintenance array. Probably the most important structure for people that have made a home in wh-space, and it doesn't even have tabs. Just a big container floating in space, that everyone needs to use to store their ships (Sometimes the most expensive possession that players have), which has absolutely no security whatsoever
So... is there any wh-corp expert that has found a solution to these glaring security issues for living from a POS? Should i expect CCP to look into this, and improve it in the future? Should i be making threads arguing for individual corp-hanger tab creations, or better yet, just making secure containers work from within a corp hanger? Or should i put this along the same lines as a fix to the bounty hunter system, and accept that they will ignore it for years?
Here is an example of exactly what im trying to avoid: Stealer Scum
We've yet to have any of our stuff taken, but we sure know there are alot of scum out there willing to try! |
Skydell
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
180
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 07:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
POS is just the tip of the Iceberg.
The entire corp/ alliance system is built on the power to abuse. Band of Brothers is the climax example of it. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2132
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 07:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
POS is broken. There was mention of the whole system being reworked during fanfest but it didn't sound like it was happening real soon.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
259
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 08:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Skydell wrote:POS is just the tip of the Iceberg.
The entire corp/ alliance system is built on the power to abuse. Band of Brothers is the climax example of it.
Hey there, you're being too realistic, these are the EVE-O forums, a discussion platform for serious issues that will choke EVE so a horrible death from lack of space oxygen.
Surely goons are the "climax" (heh) of abusing. For example, rifters.
Take all the tech
Build all the titans
Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Prince Kobol
292
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 08:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
They mentioned during fanfest that pos's are going to get a complete overhaul but I expect it will be sometime in 2013 before we see any real news about this (fingers crossed) |
Ordais
DARK ORCHESTRA
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 08:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
too optimistic.
Corp/Alliance management and POS management (as well as who has access to what/why/how) is a mess and not worthy of a 8 year old game.
BUT...its also extremely difficult to change and thus won't be even touched before 2014/15, i'm sure. This would probably be one of the most intense reworking processes in EvE as it involves every section (art, gamedesing, software) and would touch on most of what you do today in EvE (0.0, WH, lowsec, highsec; research, production, moonmining, hausing, defence...)
So, i'm not waiting for this. I hope it will come someday, but if they ever put that effort into EvE again we have to see. Doing small things like crucible is one thing, but something like that...well. |
Endeavour Starfleet
725
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 09:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is one of the key things that ruins a good chunk of the game outside hisec.
It greatly screws over small corps and alliances. Leads to a large lack of trust of newer players (Full API NAO!) and greatly increases the barrier of entry into things that could be great.
Why it is on the board instead of on Sisi already is a complete mystery to me. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
60
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 12:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's a bit of a workaround, but there are still plenty of option to work with using secure cans right?
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
26
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 14:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
Well a simple solution for the short term, at least for small wormhole corps, would be to make it possible to use secure cans from inside the corp hanger much like you can for inside a station. The corp security options currently allow you to prevent the removal of cans without permission, so it would be simple to make them able to be passworded, and individuals stuff to be kept seperate and securely from eachothers.
I'm enclined to agree with Ordais, CCP takes forever to actually do anything beyond the talking stage. Bounty hunter fix anyone? So i'm not holding my breath. But perhaps i should start mailing two-step in regards to this, see if the CSM7 can do something for a quick short-term fix.
Until then, i guess i'll have to be paranoid about everyone that wants to join my corp.  |
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
443
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 14:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Polymer reactions cannot be secured. It requires Starbase config which is essentially giving whomever the keys to the kingdom.
Ship Maint. Arrays can be secured to a degree. Under the management screen you can state who can see/use an SMA. There are 3 useful options. Corporation, Fuel tech. and Starbase configure. The first is for everyone, the second for somewhat trusted folks, the third for trusted friends. Only the SMA can be secured in this fashion. Individual ships within cannot.
You can do the same with just about any structure at a pos. Unfortunately, this is as good as it gets.
We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Darod Zyree
Zyree Holding
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 14:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
You seem to be forgetting or at least not accepting that theft is as much a part of this game as shooting sleepers is.
Removing all options to steal ships and items from shared hanger tabs/ship maintenance arrays damages the thieving game play.
There are other (maybe even better) solutions than to ask CCP to remove a game profession. |
Ordais
DARK ORCHESTRA
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 14:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
nah sry. Theft should be possible through other means. Hacking, decoding, gaining leadership trust, finding out the FF-PW and stuff.
As it stands today new players can't gain trust step by step, because there is only the "all or nothing" option. This detracts from playing together, more then ever in WH's where you need a safe haven.
Also, ever been involved in a research corp? 7 guys max / corp because more would just be inviting everyone to steal. Thats just bad gamedesign and has nothing to do with theft as part of the gameplay. Its even getting worse doing research in an alliance as invention/copies can't be done in the same alliance = more small corps to split up the community.
Its not about safety, its about managability. Only because there is a LOCK on your door doesn't mean ppl can't break in and stealing from you, it just takes some effort. The solution is not removing the lock (or not putting it there). |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 16:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darod Zyree wrote:You seem to be forgetting or at least not accepting that theft is as much a part of this game as shooting sleepers is.
Removing all options to steal ships and items from shared hanger tabs/ship maintenance arrays damages the thieving game play.
There are other (maybe even better) solutions than to ask CCP to remove a game profession.
Can't say i agree with you in any way. Stealing is a viable profession for scum, if thats what your into, and should be able to be done if thats your thing, but only by slowly gaining the trust of the corp/alliance you have targeted. By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating, and pretty poor considering that the whole game is based upon corporations and alliances. Eve always has the risk-to-reward ratio, which is probably why so many people go for the risk-free stealing approach. For the quite franky massive rewards you get from being the sort of player willing to steal other peoples achievements, there should be a big-layer of security involved to bypass first.
Maybe i should setup a corp hanger per 7 players? 
|
Darod Zyree
Zyree Holding
20
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 17:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:
Stealing is a viable profession for scum, if thats what your into, and should be able to be done if thats your thing, but only by slowly gaining the trust of the corp/alliance you have targeted. By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating, and pretty poor considering that the whole game is based upon corporations and alliances.
lol
Perhaps you should get to know a new person more, "slowly gaining trust" that you write about.
"By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating"
Thats kind of your own doing isn't it? You apparently give new people access to your POS and its hangers right away.
|
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
32
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 17:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Darod Zyree wrote:Xen Solarus wrote:
Stealing is a viable profession for scum, if thats what your into, and should be able to be done if thats your thing, but only by slowly gaining the trust of the corp/alliance you have targeted. By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating, and pretty poor considering that the whole game is based upon corporations and alliances.
lol Perhaps you should get to know a new person more, "slowly gaining trust" that you write about. "By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating" Thats kind of your own doing isn't it? You apparently give new people access to your POS and its hangers right away.
Haha proving you didnt read my origional post! Feel free to go read it, like you should have, before giving your opinion. Good way to make yourself look like an idiot. 
LMAO! |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 17:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree with OP. I think they said they would be looking at POS overhaul next year, if not sooner. But it's definitely coming, and I for one can't wait.
UI Iteration isn't enough, we need to start from scratch |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
499
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 18:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
So you want more security, but unwilling to use whats currently offered.
Trust issues?
Grats! Working as intended.
Or you could try setting up multiple POS. Everyone wants to protect themselves, might as well form an alliance with everyone in their own corp, everyone sets up own POS, sets password, and you are golden.
|
Skydell
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
181
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:So you want more security, but unwilling to use whats currently offered.
Trust issues?
Grats! Working as intended.
Or you could try setting up multiple POS. Everyone wants to protect themselves, might as well form an alliance with everyone in their own corp, everyone sets up own POS, sets password, and you are golden.
I will say it again.
Band of Brothers.
They lots an entire region of Sov.
Trillions of ISK in assets.
To a founding director, a once trusted member of Band of Brothers. Thousands and thousands of members all invested in an alliance, Gone in day. Because one guy had a vaginamalfunction day.
Ushra 'Khan
Same thing. Dude went away for the weekend, came back to nothing. Whole alliance, gone. A founding alliance of EVE a very dedicated alliance, a very effective alliance, destroyed by ONE GUY. An alt who was on TS, gave his full API, was a "trusted" Meta account. What are you suggesting? I do background checks on 400,0000 accounts when building my alliance? Working as intended?
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
429
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
The entire corp security and POS management grew beyond what CCP thought it would be. It is limited by 16 bits, so they have told us. (No one will ever need more than 640KB of memory, right?)
Hopefully one day they overhaul the entire corp security scheme, but it is a big job so understandably a slow one. As much as I'd like to see it fixed yesterday and made into a security schema that more resembles a file system with groups, inheritance and explicit ACLs, I think this is one of those issues we're going to have to be patient about.
|
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
37
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:47:00 -
[20] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:So you want more security, but unwilling to use whats currently offered.
Trust issues?
Grats! Working as intended
Or you could try setting up multiple POS. Everyone wants to protect themselves, might as well form an alliance with everyone in their own corp, everyone sets up own POS, sets password, and you are golden
Says the guy without a face in an NPC corp. Not brave enough to post on your main? Did you read the thread at all? If you had, you'd see i'm already using the very limited security currently offered by POS options.
Seriously, if people can't controbute to the thread, why bother posting. I'm looking for ways to improve the security.
If your the sort of player that LIKES that lack of POS or alliance security, then you're likely the sorta player that steals everything they can get your hands on. If you fall into this category, then don't bother posting. This isn't the thread for you. |
Cipher Jones
381
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 19:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Darod Zyree wrote:You seem to be forgetting or at least not accepting that theft is as much a part of this game as shooting sleepers is.
Removing all options to steal ships and items from shared hanger tabs/ship maintenance arrays damages the thieving game play.
There are other (maybe even better) solutions than to ask CCP to remove a game profession. Can't say i agree with you in any way. Stealing is a viable profession for scum, if thats what your into, and should be able to be done if thats your thing, but only by slowly gaining the trust of the corp/alliance you have targeted. By making it immediately possible upon entering a corp is self-defeating, and pretty poor considering that the whole game is based upon corporations and alliances. Eve always has the risk-to-reward ratio, which is probably why so many people go for the risk-free stealing approach. For the quite franky massive rewards you get from being the sort of player willing to steal other peoples achievements, there should be a big-layer of security involved to bypass first. Maybe i should setup a corp hanger per 7 players?
Its not immediately possible upon entering a corp, so your entire argument is invalid.
There is a big layer of security to bypass first. The first step is getting the past the API check.. The second step is getting the access to the wormhole. The third step is getting access to the corp hangar, the final step is getting access to POS management.
Any corporation that decides to forego the API check deserves to be robbed blind.
Canada Bill Jones wrote:It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money
cipher jones, alone and unloved after his campaign against the evil goonies, resorts to stealing their techniques to become loved |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
40
|
Posted - 2012.03.25 20:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:
Its not immediately possible upon entering a corp, so your entire argument is invalid.
Lol, if that was the case, then the link i posted in the first post of this thread wouldn't have happened. And yet it did. Plus many, many examples throughout eve history, some listed in this very thread. (Does anyone bother to read threads before posting these days?) Thus it is very possible to happen, making your opinion invalid. Of course, it takes someone running the show who's not really clued up on what he's doing, but thats more than possible with the confusing nature of the corp security options, and the abundance of morons playing eve. Luckly i don't fall into that category, with our second POS established, all our stuff is as safe as houses! Or it takes a very smart, patient spy, gaining trust and waiting for the perfect moment to strike!
Its just everyone else that could potentially suffer some stealing scum doing his thing. Seems there's very little to stop them. Perhaps the best no-risk to reward ratio of them all! |
Ordais
DARK ORCHESTRA
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 02:01:00 -
[23] - Quote
Some ppl just don't get it as they never had to manage anything....they just like talking alot.
To gain trust in you we have to play together. To play together in EvE i have to trust you first. See the problem?
Examples:
- WH - you need a POS to stage in. POS = kinda expensive/month. So, i have to let you into a POS...from day one. If i don't, we can't play together = you can't gain my trust.
- Research - to do effective research you need a POS. To use a POS you need rights. I have to trust you to give you rights. If i don't, you CAN'T do research. When we talk about rights we talk about "factory manager" and "rent slots", = you can see ALL JOBS DONE in the corp....and you can CANCEL ALL JOBS...its "all or nothing". If i don't set visibility of hangars right, you can even steal a BPO by launching the job in a restricted hangar (yes right, no take-access) and putting the bpo-output in a hangar asigned to you. HOW is this working as intended?
- Reactons/Production - same thing as above.
The only solution today is to NOT work together or split up in multiple corps/alliances = alot of 1-7man corps. How is that working as intended in a game where you want to play together?
I say again, i'm all for stealing/scamming and stuff. Tbh, fixing the mentioned things would even make it easier as you could work your way up from day 1. Today i just don't trust you and put you in your own corp, so you can't do any harm at all = no stealing/scamming for you. I see no benefit for both parties in this. |
Endeavour Starfleet
728
|
Posted - 2012.03.26 02:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
Darod Zyree wrote:You seem to be forgetting or at least not accepting that theft is as much a part of this game as shooting sleepers is.
Removing all options to steal ships and items from shared hanger tabs/ship maintenance arrays damages the thieving game play.
There are other (maybe even better) solutions than to ask CCP to remove a game profession.
Um NO!
Removing all options? Get a dumb ceo to give you roles and all new security is bypassed.
Letting nullsec continue to be broken beyond belief so you can continue to steal from small corps is beyond silly. |
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