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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 25 post(s)
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:20:00 - [61] Edited by: Arna Padrona on 05/09/2008 18:35:15 I understand that the devs are in a bit of a tight spot here but... We used to have tabs functions as settings, and that was ok. If they function as workspaces instead - I'll learn to live with it, but they don't even do that. Like Explorer said, if you try to use them as the workspaces they are now supposed to be - changing one tab will not only change this tab - but every other tab as well, unless they are loaded to a specific setting. So now we neither have settings, nor individual workspaces, but a sort of half-functional in-between, that doesn't do EITHER job well. I honestly fail to see the improvement here. This half-n-half is pretty messy, and it creates more problems than it solves. Basically we are back to status quo, except with one tab less (default). We can still only modify one tab, you can't touch the others. Only now...you can make mistakes and mess up tabs by accident. Workspaces, or settings. Pick one and go with it. All the way.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.09.05 18:33:00 - [62] It should be trivially possible to save those settings to "Saved Tab 1", "Saved Tab 2", ... "Saved Tab 5" - I don't think that the current behavior is a solution to the original defect :-)

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.05 19:11:00 - [63] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 19:15:32 Originally by: Arna Padrona Workspaces, or settings. Pick one and go with it. All the way. The tabs are not settings, they are workspaces into which settings are loaded. If you change from one tab to another then the last loaded setting is retained. Switching from one setting to another is a simple matter of right-clicking the tab and selecting the new setting. "Changing the tab" sets the Not saved setting appropriately and loads it into the tab. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 19:51:00 - [64] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 14:21:15 If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work. That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit. this is what you dont understand. when you are using a custom tab and you load a different overview setting, IT OVERWRITED YOUR saved tab settings! without asking you! imagine if everytime you removed something off your overview it OVERWROTE your overview preset. it doesnt, it creates a new, unsaved overview preset, which is exactly what SHOULD happen with the tabs. if you load a new overview preset in the tab, then it should make a new, unsaved custom tab. if people want to "work" on their tabs as you say, they can go into the tab settings and change it there.
SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 19:54:00 - [65] Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 19:54:00 Originally by: Arna Padrona As things are now, I have no choice but to settle for 4 tabs with permanent settings, and use one of the tabs as the "junk tab" - the one where I can load or change, confident that it will not ruin my fleet settings. However, a mistake will still change one of my important fleet tabs. If I forget to switch to the junk tab first, I also end up destroying a tab. QFT
SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:03:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Explorer The tabs are not settings, they are workspaces into which settings are loaded. If you change from one tab to another then the last loaded setting is retained. Switching from one setting to another is a simple matter of right-clicking the tab and selecting the new setting. "Changing the tab" sets the Not saved setting appropriately and loads it into the tab. The Not saved setting is global. well this is where i think CCP implementation failed. people dont want workspaces for tabs! i use tabs in combat! or i used to, but now it would be completely foolish to use tabs in combat because if you happen to make one temporary change to your tab then it just became useless because tabs dont remember their saved settings. imagine if you had a word document, and any letter that you typed overrode the saved file, without asking you. how would you get back to the original file? you cant, and that is the problem with the current system.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:27:00 - [67] You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:33:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Explorer Please understand our position. CCP Tuxford implemented the previous version and it was defected by players. Based on that feedback he implemented this new version. And you don't like it. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't But we want to keep this simple and not add buttons and options all over if that doesn't solve the use cases. Right, exactly. You have described the current implementation of the Overview tab mechanics clearly. It's fine as it is with regard to the "Not Saved" setting staying unique for each T1, T2 etc. However, let me also add that lumping S1 isn't totally accurate. There are 2 settings that make up the each Overview tab - Overview Settings (V1) and Bracket Settings (B1). Now, Arna Padrona's comments are a little bit more expansive, but the root issue remains the same. My comments tend to lean to a specific function that I would consider as critical for a fully functional tab. Granted I'd like to see a more elegant implementation, but one must make do with whatever's at hand. Let me point out the critical weakness for the current Overview mechanics : 1. there is no short way of reverting T1 settings back to its custom V1 and B1 that had been originally set for the tab. There is little point in worrying about S1 settings, these are just a temporary modifications which the user can have the option to either save as a new V1 or B1 profile, keep using it or just simply discard it. I know that B1 settings are not affected when you deal with the Overview changes, but I included it for the sake of completeness. 2. you maybe needlessly confusing players with having B1 option present in the menu. If their intent is to fix their Overview, they'll be wondering which V1 or B1 setting should be modified. Only the experienced players will be able to understand and differentiate between those two. It never fails. If you're on the SAK channel on weekends, you can enjoy the many bingos where people keep asking how to make a non-existant Villard Wheel. 3.there are no clear standard way to distinguish between a V1 profile and B1 profile. The only way I can distinguish them right now is to append "bracket" to the profile names. Granted they are identical in all respects, but failing to automatically categorize them leads to confusion. If CCP intends to make this game more newbie friendly, then it needs to look at it from an idiot's perspective. 4. there is also no quick indicator to tell you which V1 and B1 profiles are being used for tab T1. The only way to check this is through the main Overview settings windows and tab over to the overview tab. 5. you'll also notice that there's a lot of confusion around overview settings, bracket settings, main overview settings wording. This makes it hard for users to articulate their problems. I would suggest a revamp of the wording so that the word "overview" isn't overly used or cannot be easily confused with another function. I got my bug report on this thrown back because it wasn't a bug. Now, where does one air their issues out so that devs are willing to take a serious look at them? Do I need to create a petition thread in Eve General forum so that you'll get an idea on how many folks out there with the same problem? My single biggest concern is point 1. If you merge it with 2, 3 and 4, it gets bigger. Imagine going through what? 10-20 different profile settings just to revert your overview tab to its original V1. If CCP don't see this as an issue, then I give up. It's the proverbial brick wall. Thanks for the replies anyways.
SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:37:00 - [69] Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs. even if it is used as a workspace, it should still have the option of creating a saved tab, a final product of the work. your implementation does not. instead you offer five tabs that are not savable.
SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:50:00 - [70] Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 20:51:21 Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 20:50:43 Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs. another question i have is that why would tabs be set up as workspaces and overview presets not? i mean if were going to make workspaces lets follow your vision through... imagine now for overview presets we now have overview workspaces, so that any time we load a overview workspace, and change it in some way, say adding or removing stargates, it automatically overwrites the saved overview workspace without asking you. now wouldnt that be great? no it wouldnt
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.05 20:53:00 - [71] I think perhaps the point has gone though either way: 1) The setting-people are not happy, because their work is overwritten (even though the setting ITSELF is still saved.) 2) The workspace people are not happy (because tabs overwrite eachother, due to the fact that there's only one "not saved" setting). The solutions are fairly simple: If we want "settings" (and clearly we don't, I've been told) then just keep the autosave to "not saved", but remove the way tabs change their settings to use "not saved"in the future. If we want "workspaces" (apparently we do) then add 5 different "not saved" settings, so the tabs don't interfere with each other. Better yet: DO BOTH, and then add an option: Do you want tabs to automatically save new settings? (Yes/No) Whenever a tab changes, it's a simple matter of: if ( option == TRUE ) { Set tab to Not Saved X. } This way we get workspaces that work, with the option of having them have persistant settings. Wouldn't this be the best solution, and in fact make everyone happy?

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.05 21:02:00 - [72] The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.05 21:15:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs. the problem that i have with workspaces is that for certain situations in eve, ie PVP, i dont want a workspace. i want my overview and brackets to come up 1 exact way, the way i have it saved. lets say i wanted to load a particular overview preset. well with the old system i could just single click the custom tab and it would load that saved preset regardless of what my current settings were. now, if i want to do the same thing i have to right click the overview, fine the correct overview preset on the list, and click it. you turned 1 step into 3, and removed my ability to save tab settings on top of that.
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.05 21:27:00 - [74] Originally by: CCP Explorer The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea. I'm not a big fan of the workspaces myself, much preferring settings, but if the workspaces is the way the devs are dead-set on, adding 5 default save settings isn't something that should be considered; it's something that absolutely should be added without delay. Workspace tabs are not functional without it. Please, though, pretty please, consider making the tabs auto-set themselves to the default save optional. There's a lot of us, as you can tell, that really like the idea of having the tabs act in a persistent manner, and it shouldn't prove that difficult to take care of that. I guess that's it for me on this matter. I'll go mine something in silence, and hope for the best.
nutbar Caldari Flair Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.05 22:25:00 - [75] I'm amazed by how many people actually LIKED the default tab overview BUG that caused it to never remember an overview preset assigned to it (it was always "not saved"). It's odd that people actually had it working to their liking, considering it constantly was picking random overview settings and not keeping one specific set (and resetting back to it on tab switches). Anyways, the people asking to have it constantly "reset" after modifying a tabs overview setting is very weird - it doesn't make sense really, because then what should it save and what shouldn't it? Maybe just having a way to save an overview setting to the default tab is what they really want, and if they then modify the overview, it doesn't cause it to update the saved data so that if you swap to a different tab (well, not possible now - hah) it just re-loads the saved data which "resets" it to what it used to be. I don't see implementing that as being a huge challenge for CCP/Tuxford. Personally though, I'm glad the BUG was fixed - I'm certainly not whining to have it reverted back. I just wish we had more than 5 tabs :( I used all 6 tabs before, and now being one short screws me over. Can we have maybe 10 tabs?
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.05 23:29:00 - [76] Originally by: nutbar I'm amazed by how many people actually LIKED the default tab overview BUG that caused it to never remember an overview preset assigned to it (it was always "not saved"). It's odd that people actually had it working to their liking, considering it constantly was picking random overview settings and not keeping one specific set (and resetting back to it on tab switches). Anyways, the people asking to have it constantly "reset" after modifying a tabs overview setting is very weird - it doesn't make sense really, because then what should it save and what shouldn't it? Maybe just having a way to save an overview setting to the default tab is what they really want, and if they then modify the overview, it doesn't cause it to update the saved data so that if you swap to a different tab (well, not possible now - hah) it just re-loads the saved data which "resets" it to what it used to be. I don't see implementing that as being a huge challenge for CCP/Tuxford. Obvious answer to the first paragraph was because prior to patch 1.1 (or perhaps earlier patches), the custom tab needed to have BOTH Overview and Brackets settings to be populated with a valid profile before it would work properly. Leaving out one or the other borks the tab and your overview. I've had numerous occasions where I mentioned this in the chat channels when people complained about their overview not behaving as what was set. People are not asking asking for a constant reset. For my own part, I had been asking that CCP reduce the steps involved in "resetting" the custom tab if they're adamant about whatever they're thinking is the right way to go. This has very little to do with persistent "Not Saved" setting. What works shouldn't be dismissed summarily, just because it was a bug. The current "Not Saved" persistence makes things painful when you want to change to an overview setting that had been specifically optimized and preset in the custom tab. Why do I want to reload the custom tab to whatever that was set? Because I don't want to remember what things I had removed from the overview temporarily. Even if I was a memory master, I'd have to locate the item in space to add it back. Does anyone prefer to do this? Try changing your overview setting for a tab. See if you like navigating your mouse over to the correct overview profile - from over 10-20 stored profiles. Compare this to the old behaviour. That's what I had to put up with whevever I want to reset/revert back my custom tab countless times when I needed a small temporary change here and there.
SK Rooster No Trademark Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.09.06 01:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Sturmwolke Try changing your overview setting for a custom tab. See if you like navigating your mouse over to the Overview Settings menu and then pick from over 10-20 stored profiles. That's what I had to put up with whevever I want to reset/revert back my custom tab countless times when I needed a small temporary change here and there. Compare this to the old behaviour when you want to reset/revert back the custom tab. this is my complaint exactly
Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.06 01:53:00 - [78] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 06/09/2008 01:54:31 While I'm still saddled with insomnia, consider : - re-wording "Brackets Settings" to "Space Environment Settings" or anything palatably shorter that can describe it more intuitively. - replacing the word "bracket" with something more intuitive e.g. "objects" or "environment objects" - re-wording the main "Overview Settings" to "Overview Control Panel" - re-defining the saved settings as "Profiles" rather that referrring to them as settings. - remove the duplicated profile load - either you can load when clicking on the arrow or you can load when right clicking on the custom tab. It's not an issue if you only have the Overview Profile to worry about, but in this case, you have the Bracket Profile mucking up the the logic and generally renders the interface confusing and un-intuitive. The above would minimize false positives and make things considerably easier for the un-initiated user to describe their problems. There, I can sleep easy now.
Ferrim	Posted - 2008.09.06 02:30:00 - [79] Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 14:21:15 If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work. That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit. I agree with you if I am editing a document. However, the ability to set a tab so that it would always load the same overview was EXTREMLY natural to me. This meant that I didn't have to use a menu to get that overview setting loaded. If I am allowed to set a tab to a particular overview setting, I expect that tab to always load that setting I set it to. Otherwise, why bother setting the tab to an overview, if every time I want that overview I must right click and select it from a menu anyways. The ability to change and undo is exactly natural it this case, because I SET that tab to that setting I wanted it to load. If you still think that is unatural, the change the the tabs to buttons. Seems to be a matter of semantics to me.
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 02:45:00 - [80] There is actually one more reason why having persistent tabs (the old behaviour) is preferable to non-persistent tabs (new behaviour) that I haven't already thought of - simple because I try my hardest not to use tabs as "workspaces": If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings. You can see what the tab DOES show, provided it's THERE for us to see. Considering how most people set very restricting brackets for lag-issues, it's virtually impossible to see what the tab does show, even if there ARE objects around you don't show. Remembering what 5 different tabs do, after more than 20 minutes turns into a memory-game. So, we are essentially forced to load settings that we know what they do either way, and then the question is: Why would we want auto-saving tabs, when we can't remember what they do int the fisrt place?
Veinless Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.06 04:28:00 - [81] To me, the overview tabs are templates. I set them up in the Overview Settings Window. The purpose of that window is to make permanent changes to overview settings. When I click on the tabs, I expect them to show up as I configured them in the overview settings window. The tabs should be consistant and unaltered from how I had configured them. If I modify my settings outside of the Overview Settings Window (eg. by right-clicking on something in space), then I am customizing a template for my current situation. I sure do not expect it to alter my template. That is, when I click to a different tab and then back to my first tab, I expect it to be as I had set it up in the Overview Settings Window. Please return the original behaviour, as this new behaviour is a defect. Or allow the option to use old behaviour versus new behaviour. Or if I must be stuck with this new behaviour, please add a button to Return Tab to Original Settings. Do I need to file a petition/bug report on this or is a vote in this thread sufficient?

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.06 13:20:00 - [82] Originally by: Sturmwolke For my own part, I had been asking that CCP reduce the steps involved in "resetting" the custom tab if they're adamant about whatever they're thinking is the right way to go. The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting). Originally by: Sturmwolke What works shouldn't be dismissed summarily, just because it was a bug. A bug is a feature? Originally by: Arna Padrona If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings. But there is a way. The tab is labeled with its name and right above the tab you will the text "Overview (<current setting name>)" that tells you what profile is loaded. Originally by: Sturmwolke consider: - re-wording the current Bracket/Overview "Settings" to "Profiles" - re-wording the main "Overview Settings" to "Overview Control Panel" We will consider that. In general we are not going back to the previous behaviour since that work was defected to us and didn't work as players expected. But we definitely want iterate on the current behaviour. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

Sturmwolke School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.06 15:25:00 - [83] Edited by: Sturmwolke on 06/09/2008 15:25:13 Originally by: CCP Explorer The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting) Yes, go ahead and try that with 10-20 profiles listed in the overview settings. Navigate and move your mouse to it. Notice anything different? How many inches do you think the mouse cursor needed to travel in addition to having to precisely control it in order to pick the CORRECT profile? Pile on more profiles and increase your frequency - feel any good about it yet? facepalms The brackets settings are of lesser concern since it's not changed that often, when compared to the overview. Originally by: CCP Explorer A bug is a feature? Is this true or false? Many modern inventions are the result of accidental discovery. I'm not arguing about bug=feature. I'm merely pointing out that it works and one should not dismiss its quirky potential for current/future UI designs. Originally by: CCP Explorer In general we are not going back to the previous behaviour since that work was defected to us and didn't work as players expected. But we definitely want iterate on the current behaviour. After so many posts, I'm sure you're well aware of an easy fix for this that won't return the old behaviour. Go ahead, be boneheaded about it. I'll just twiddle my thumb and see if this will turn into another Alt key case.
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 15:50:00 - [84] Originally by: CCP Explorer Originally by: Arna Padrona If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings. But there is a way. The tab is labeled with its name and right above the tab you will the text "Overview (<current setting name>)" that tells you what profile is loaded. But ... oh dear. If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved", or even with 5 different "not saved" settings, that still says nothing of any use. The only way I can read the name of the current setting in the overview header is if I use my tab to load SETTINGS and not use it as a WORKSPACE... You see what I mean? Any time you try to use the "workspace" behaviour, you immediately loose track... Don't you?

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:35:00 - [85] Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 16:36:29 Originally by: Arna Padrona If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved" (...) Any time you try to use the "workspace" behaviour, you immediately loose track... (...) Don't you? There is just a single global Not saved profile. Personally I use that for "various miscellaneous uses" when I need something temporarily into my overview. To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games

RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:56:00 - [86] Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken. Previous to patch-first tab (can't remember name...the probe bit) displayed countdown to probe cycle completion. No problems shifting between local scanner and countdown/results page. Post patch-Shifting between scanner tab a/b as above after probe launch no longer displays active probe cycle run time...probe run time briefly flashes up (too fast to see) and then defaults to initial tab a page showing the probe actual lifetime remaining and scan groups selected. tl;dr? You broke it. Also...F10 map is a stuttering mess now. EDITOoops...guess this should have been in bug reports but given the state of the "tabs" perhaps the above mess is intended as a feature . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.06 16:59:00 - [87] Originally by: CCP Explorer To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab. BTW...this comes across pretty arrogant. Especially as the tabs were working rather sensibly prior to your meddling with them . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:01:00 - [88] Edited by: Arna Padrona on 06/09/2008 17:02:46 Quote: There is just a single global Not saved profile. Personally I use that for "various miscellaneous uses" when I need something temporarily into my overview. To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab. And that of course assumes that the devs have already scrapped the idea of adding 5 different "not saved" tabs. That WOULD be hard to remember. But... if we are to use only one tab as a workspace, then why not just put the default tab BACK, and let the rest of the tabs be persistent? At least this way all the other tabs wont keep colliding with each other with every change, and mess things up. No matter how many ways we swing this around, there's no way anyone is going to convince me that the current overview is in any way intuitive, or an indication of what a majority of the players want. It's not functional workspaces. It's not functional settings. It's a half-functional inbetween - with severe problems. It's a mess, pure and simple. The amarrian part in me will pray that you devs see the light, and at least add an option to disable the way tabs switch to "Not Saved" without asking first. It's a really small change. One option in the settings. One boolean value to save. One if-statement. Please, at least give us a choice.
Arna Padrona Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:13:00 - [89] Edited by: Arna Padrona on 06/09/2008 17:15:43 Found 1.1 Bugs: 1) Asteroid belts no longer sort in order in the system menu. 2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.

CCP Explorer	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:28:00 - [90] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken. See here. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games


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