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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
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CCP Navigator
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:20:00 -
[1]
EVE Online: Empyrean Age 1.1 has been successfully deployed on Tranquility and weÆre now open for business! We appreciate your patience during the downtime and hope that the newly deployed patch will make life more pleasurable for every Capsuleer! For a more comprehensive list of what has been added and fixed, please check the patch notes. WeÆd also appreciate to hear your feedback which can be posted in this thread. Please note that this is for general feedback, not issues or bugs. |
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Destrukter
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:21:00 -
[2]
about time :P |
Katabrok First
Caldari Apukaray Security
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:30:00 -
[3]
Thank you!
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Lyseas
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lyseas on 02/09/2008 21:32:41 can't log in?
never had a problem before, now I'm queued (20 people before me). What is up with that?
well, I just tried again and all is well. Hopefully I just caught it at the wrong moment. |
Terminus adacai
Caldari Pantheon Gaming CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:32:00 -
[5]
Been entering station with black screen now for over 5 minutes. |
Advantageous
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:40:00 -
[6]
I'm getting crc errors after the patch auto installed. Can we get a utility to repair files that come up damaged rather than having to completely reinstall after a patch fails? |
Terminus adacai
Caldari Pantheon Gaming CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:40:00 -
[7]
Is Hek in Metro broke? One toon in Hek is still black screened as entering station while a toon in Vilur got online with no problem. |
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CCP Lingorm
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:47:00 -
[8]
OK.
Some common issues have cropped up.
If you have missing Corp or Alliance chat please check the following thread for fixes. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=861769.
I will keep this updated with anything else that comes up.
CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader
Originally by: Lord Fitz Eve is to WoW as Wow is to an 8 player game of Unreal Tournament.
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CCP Navigator
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Terminus adacai Is Hek in Metro broke? One toon in Hek is still black screened as entering station while a toon in Vilur got online with no problem.
Please see the OP in this thread as it may be relevant to your problem.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email / Netfang
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CCP Navigator
C C P
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:48:00 -
[10]
Guys and Girls,
Please report playability issues in this thread, please.
Navigator Senior Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email / Netfang
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Tanhar
Gallente Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:52:00 -
[11]
You guys at CCP really have some special talents...all windows positions broken.
I always close patcher after patching an restart client separately. Helped until now, no luck today
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Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:56:00 -
[12]
I agree with Tanhar, we've been asking for 5 years for this, please, please, please can we have patches that don't completely screw up all our windows settings. It is a real pain having to spend the first 20-30 minutes after any patch having to reset all the windows back to where we normally have them. |
Laendra
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Posted - 2008.09.02 21:57:00 -
[13]
Where is the updated Data Export? |
Full Impact
Universal-Corp The Nexus Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:04:00 -
[14]
I've lost my alliance chat window. |
Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:15:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 02/09/2008 22:17:24 Thanks AGAIN for killing all window positions!
See, this is the reason why people keep copying their cache folders, because somehow CCP again and again fail to preserve settings! This is the only freaking game that does this!
Learn it already, it's about time! Hire new guys, some who know how to store, load and convert settings from one patch to another.
This is what the UI looked like when I logged in: http://img187.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=93377_2008.09.02.22.03.18_122_372lo.jpg. Guess what, I did not log out with this. This is not acceptable, there is no other game out there where patches kill settings SO DAMN OFTEN! Now don't come at me tellng me I had corrupted cache files. If I had them, it was your fault, not mine, because it was your incompetence again and again and again that broke settings, window positions and whatnot. As much as I love this game, you need to do something about this. Use XML files already, they do their job and are obviously easier to maintain than whatever you do with your cache and settings files.
QA fail at its best and I am really sad it happens so regurarly. This is so ridiculous.
I need a beer, or two... |
Thenoran
Caldari Border Rim Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:21:00 -
[16]
Good: Strip Miners now have their Classic sound once again, truly sweet as it was iconic to the Barges Bad: All window positions and dimensions were fubared when I logged in... |
Yggdrassil
Amarrian Missionaires
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:23:00 -
[17]
Migth be wrong, but for some of the ppl that keeps loosing folders and windows positions...
If you are running multiple clients of Eve / using the "/end /LUA:OFF" option, make sure you do not start Eve from the updater (as in answer yes to launching eve after its updated)
If you answer yes to that - the "/end /LUA:OFF" option ISN'T applied.....
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Drahcir Nasom
Independent Manufacturers
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:29:00 -
[18]
Please can you do something to stop windows from trying to automatically move themselves around when other windows overlap them? Once I've positioned my windows I want them to stay put and not move around anywhere. And please don't say "pin them" because that turns them transparent and I don't want them transparent. Can you at least give us an option to turn off all automatic window positioning?
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Tabea Knute
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Tabea Knute on 02/09/2008 22:41:32 Edited by: Tabea Knute on 02/09/2008 22:34:51 CCP, you are able to count? No? I'll tell you: 1, 2, 3.
You are counting the asteroid belts in Misneden : 1, 3, 2. You get it? Ok. SCNR.
Edit: But great job. DB is running faster. |
Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 02/09/2008 22:40:36 CCP, honestly, what is your QA team doing? Do you call a forced reset of all window positions "quality"?
When you change client-side stored settings, and change the system they work, it goes without saying that you write routines in your patcher which converts the old system to the new.
Google up "Interface Design Guidelines" and "Application Usability". Make it mandatory lecture for all your GUI coders & designers and QA staff. Seriously.
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Ardriss
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Posted - 2008.09.02 22:53:00 -
[21]
Great! New patch, immediate problems. Installed patch. Opened client later. Banner page comes up, goes away, and then nothing. No login screen. Nothing. Just my windows desktop. Any ideas? |
Phoenus
Caldari Body Count Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.02 23:32:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Phoenus on 02/09/2008 23:32:47
Originally by: Imhothar Xarodit Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 02/09/2008 22:17:24 Thanks AGAIN for killing all window positions!
See, this is the reason why people keep copying their cache folders, because somehow CCP again and again fail to preserve settings! This is the only freaking game that does this!
Oh jesus christ not again? I spent bloody hours after the last patch fixing unique, individual settings / window positions on 8 accounts.
Every goddamn patch it does this. EVERY patch.
Sort it out. |
Joe Free
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Posted - 2008.09.02 23:53:00 -
[23]
Nice patch. So far everything working good. I have noticed a couple of small details ya'll fixed that were a pain. Thanks. |
Daan Sai
HAZCON Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.03 02:28:00 -
[24]
Please, Please, don't start new missions with incredibly small payouts and completion times and hope the famed Auto-Balancer (of doom) will fix things eventually. These days the missioneers have a mature set of balanced missions to choose from, and all this will achieve is people running once, for interest, and then never again as the isk/hour is miserable compared to other readily available missions. The mission channels in game are already disparaging them as not worth running.
Once, a long time ago this strategy may have worked, but nowadays to get mission uptake, start high to reward early adopters and let the balancer adjust downwards over time. The auto-balancer is fine, but the context for newly introduced missions is different when there are already many established missions in place.
Just a suggestion to make all the hard work of the mission devs worthwhile.
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Dave Davies
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Posted - 2008.09.03 02:45:00 -
[25]
Agent pictures in the character sheet's standings section: it's a slow- loader, of no practical value and otherwise not relevant to my interests. Nosir, I don't like it.
Option to disable please?
----- Pop Quiz -----
Can you tell me what's wrong with this sentence. |
Gamer4liff
Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2008.09.03 03:23:00 -
[26]
As somebody who started in 2004 when there were only, what? 6 buttons on the sidebar? The sidebar is really getting cluttered now, in my opinion.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.09.03 03:30:00 -
[27]
Buzz Kill. Who got fired for this one. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase:
Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
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Siigari Kitawa
Gallente The Aduro Protocol
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Posted - 2008.09.03 04:08:00 -
[28]
Ship sounds are messed up.
All my ships (Dominix, Sin, Iteron) sound like an Exequror.
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Loc Maythan
Gallente AlfaCorp
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Posted - 2008.09.03 08:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Daan Sai Please, Please, don't start new missions with incredibly small payouts and completion times and hope the famed Auto-Balancer (of doom) will fix things eventually.
This! All CCP have to do is look at the time it took for a significant number of people to start doing level 5s - the pitiful rewards for the first 6 months just weren't worth the time, effort and risk for most people.
Then, window positions!! Enough said?
Also, drones. I know they didn't appear on the patch notes, but when are the problems of errant drones (splitting up when focus fire is selected) and stuck drones (drones sticking together in flight) going to be looked at?
Has anyone else had the order of their station service icons competely changed? I use to have LP store as the last icon (bottom right) and fitting icon top right. I now have (amongst many other changes) LP store top left and fitting window bottom left. What was the reasoning behind this? Is there a way of configuring the order that I am unaware of? Is it just a bug in my client?
Higher than normal incidence of disconnects after the patch, but this is, I suppose, not that unusual immediately after a patch.
Overall speed seems pretty good, but will wait until there is a normal load (30,000+) on the server before making a final judgment.
A request. For the next patch, can we have a big clock on the website showing GMT? Fun though it was reading 100's of posts saying "1900 GMT has passed! Where is the patch?" at 1815 GMT (1915 BST), a lot of slanging matches ensued, not least because some people just didn't seem to be able to grasp the concept of British Summer Time. People get frustrated enough by missed deadlines without confusion over when the dealine actually is. One further suggestion made on the pre-patch thread - estimate a time and add several hours to it. I can't remember that last time a patch of this size when through on time apart from the one where this approach was used - can't remember the name/number. People are much, much happier with a 11 hour patch if they think it will take 18 hours than a 6 hour patch that takes 11. You don't lose any money - people have to pay regardless - but you will annoy fewer people. If nothing else, there will be fewer people complaining about skill training - even though in most cases, it's not that hard to have a multi-day skill training ;-)
Final point ... well, alright ... a repeated point: remember window positions (oh, and add an option to switch off the snapping - I've lost track of the number of times I've opened an info window and had my chat windows, or worse, my overview, moved and resized. Not exactly convenient in the middle of combat)
I will get more time to test stuff tonight - by the time the game was available last night, I only had a couple of hours of play.
Loc.
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MidNightRoD
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Posted - 2008.09.03 09:23:00 -
[30]
Edited by: MidNightRoD on 03/09/2008 09:24:00 I know EVE has "no sound" but, in addition to the messed up ship sounds, like a godly kronos sounds like a crow, also locking sounds seems to be messed up with this patch.
When locking a ship, the "locked verification sound" plays randomly through the locking sequence. I hear 5 "locked" sound for one ship, and for multiple ships it gets really annoying. Anyone else experiencing this also?
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gordon861
Minmatar PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.09.03 10:26:00 -
[31]
CCP URGENT JOB FOR YOU !
Create some form of .ini file (or number of them) that will store all the player defined client settings and options.
Things like :
window positions overview settings/tabs bookmark folders market favourites screen colours remember which damn secure cans have been set to unlocked probably a load more that I've forgotten but this would be a good start If you do this people will be able to reset their client back to how they like it everytime you bugger it up, or they get a client crash to which the standard response is 'try clearing the cache'.
I know we can backup parts of the cache directories now but things would be much easier if we could do this from a couple of files and have a good chance of it working afterwards. It would also allow overview settings to be shared so we are all shooting at the same thing.
Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe. |
Qordel
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.03 10:33:00 -
[32]
Or just store the UI configuration in a server-side record so it can be applied to any client on any machine anywhere as long as it's under your account. Perhaps allow the storing of multiple configurations so you can switch if you like.
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Ariane VoxDei
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Posted - 2008.09.03 11:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Ariane VoxDei on 03/09/2008 11:29:45
Originally by: Loc Maythan A request. For the next patch, can we have a big clock on the website showing GMT? Fun though it was reading 100's of posts saying "1900 GMT has passed! Where is the patch?" at 1815 GMT (1915 BST), a lot of slanging matches ensued, not least because some people just didn't seem to be able to grasp the concept of British Summer Time.
Nice suggestion. And to the confused podpilots out there across the world, let me suggest this: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/ And their short educational page: http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/what-is-gmt.htm
Friendly, ad-free, no nonsense GMT site on the web. And yes that is a wwP, not www.
{ edit: I told a lie. It is add-free if you run no-script :) } |
Dr Sheepbringer
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Posted - 2008.09.03 13:11:00 -
[34]
They could just have a clock at the login screen. That would sort it out. No more whines and websites and such. Or even easier, just putt a timer! 01.24 left, 01.23 left, 01.23 left, 02.22 left...WTF!!!
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Damaha
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Posted - 2008.09.03 13:30:00 -
[35]
thanks for the great patch!
>The market window will now have auto-refresh enabled by default. >Turning auto-refresh off will prevent players from seeing modified >or additional orders created by other players on the market unless >they actively refresh the window...
Great Idea!!! Please please please, add same mechanism to market 'orders' pages! I mean 'orders' in 'WALLET' window and 'my orders' in 'MARKET' window.
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Ephemeral Waves
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.03 15:25:00 -
[36]
I'm sure that there was some sort of screwed up logic behind adding yet more buttons to my neo com. How do I turn them off? There is already too much there. I don't want a services button.
And, WHY DO I HAVE TO REARRANGE MY WINDOWS AGAINS?!?!?!?!?! I logged on and everything was in a pile in the middle of the screen. Actually, no it wasn't. The corp tab was missing all together and I had to relog to get it back.
How do I stop my station window from floating? I don't want things going behind it. I don't want it moving. I don't want the damned thing to be transparent.
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Ephemeral Waves
Federation of Freedom Fighters
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Posted - 2008.09.03 15:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Qordel Or just store the UI configuration in a server-side record so it can be applied to any client on any machine anywhere as long as it's under your account. Perhaps allow the storing of multiple configurations so you can switch if you like.
This doesn't work as many people have multiple computers with different resolution settings and thus different UI set-ups.
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Captain Apoc
Order Of Common Wealth
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Posted - 2008.09.03 16:05:00 -
[38]
Lock sounds are messed up.. You hear "locked" sound too many times while you are locking an object.. Please do fix it immediately. The Apocalypse |
Haloxx
Star Section 9
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Posted - 2008.09.03 17:00:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Haloxx on 03/09/2008 17:01:38
Originally by: MidNightRoD When locking a ship, the "locked verification sound" plays randomly through the locking sequence. I hear 5 "locked" sound for one ship, and for multiple ships it gets really annoying. Anyone else experiencing this also?
Originally by: Captain Apoc Lock sounds are messed up.. You hear "locked" sound too many times while you are locking an object..
I also experience this bug.
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Jesho
Minmatar Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.03 18:21:00 -
[40]
from the the patch notes:
Quote: If you have custom tab(s) in your overview then there is no "default" tab anymore. The "default" tab is only loaded if you have no tab settings. You can have up to 5 custom tabs.
why did you change this? there was nothing wrong with the default tab in combination with custom tabs. i was using the default tab when i had custom overview tabs.
i see no reason for removing it and besides as it is now its a bit confusing when there is no default tab displayed on the overview but it do exist in the settings where you setup tabs. if its supposed to be gone then it should be gone in both places.
and it also feels a bit odd that just because you create a custom tab the default one is auto removed, what if you had settings on it that you used?
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Jaguar Dragon
Blood Association of Dragons Blood Alliance of Dragons
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Posted - 2008.09.04 01:29:00 -
[41]
the new reproccessing plant window is totaly crap. i thought all my cans and ships were getting refined.
come on, ccp anything not pre-sellected and or highlighted should NOT appear in the reproccessing window.and the complete and total lag out for 5 to 10 mins.
and i'm getting alot of system error messeges after undocking.
just my opinion is. too many fixes in one patch. suggest you put out more patches more frequently with not so many fixes.
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Nachtjaeger
Minmatar Silent Service Operations
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Posted - 2008.09.04 07:32:00 -
[42]
Eve-Voice is still bugged for me. When I right click on a channel tab and choose join audio, nothing happens. If I do it with another 2 channels on the 2nd one it says you can only join two channels at a time, please leave a channel, which I can't do as I'm not in a channel. This was bug reported after EA 1.0 and was supposed to be fixed in 1.1. I'd bug report myself but the bug report section of the forum won't open for me.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.04 21:12:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Arna Padrona on 04/09/2008 21:16:57
Several problems appeared with 1.1 and these are the ones I found. Two annoyances and a critical problem:
1) Annoyance: You can't "copy url" from a chat link any more.
2) Annoyance: You can't "check market details" from an item chat link any more. (Pricecheck? No - too much effort.)
3) Critical: Overview Changes (Tabs "broken")
Adding an item to your overview, or loading an overview setting now changes the tab!
You can no longer just click a tab you previously set up and be sure what you will get. Any mistake, or thoughtlessness will immediately ruin a tab - and in a combat situation it's very dangerous if your tabs suddenly show veldspar asteroids instead of pirates!
Setting up a tab in the settings window should edit a tab.
Setting an overview setting through right-clicking a tab should edit a tab.
Loading an overview setting rom the main menu should not edit the tabs.
Accidently adding an object to the overview absolutely must not edit the tabs!
Me - being both pvp, pve, miner, explorer, etc - have not only all my tabs in use, but a dozen extra settings that I load when it's required. Having this permanently edit my tabs every time is really a big problem. As a last resort, I've gone for having only 4 standard tabs now, and using one as a "junk tab" - the only one I am allowed to change. Unfortunately, mistakes still happen.
I'm hoping this is a mistake, that will be dealt with asap.
On a side note, it's good that you removed the default tab. It was messy, not very customizable and basically behaved like ALL tabs do now...
On another side note, it would be really cool if you could increase the max amount of tabs to 10 or so...
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Tyleritus
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:19:00 -
[44]
Flashing personal wallets when items are brought or sold or jobs isntalled using corp wallet even though that person has no roles to corp wallet at all has still not been resolved, bug report submited.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:40:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Laendra Where is the updated Data Export?
See here.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:42:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Yggdrassil Migth be wrong, but for some of the ppl that keeps loosing folders and windows positions...
If you are running multiple clients of Eve / using the "/end /LUA:OFF" option, make sure you do not start Eve from the updater (as in answer yes to launching eve after its updated)
If you answer yes to that - the "/end /LUA:OFF" option ISN'T applied...
Furthermore, please note that as of Trinity 1.2 we stopped supporting the "/end /LUA:OFF" option since the client now saves its data into different folders for each (client folder, server name) pair.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:50:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Tabea Knute CCP, you are able to count? No? I'll tell you: 1, 2, 3.
You are counting the asteroid belts in Misneden : 1, 3, 2. You get it? Ok.
Why can't we count them as 1, 3, 2 if we want to
We were clearing up inconsistencies by renaming Asteroid Belts and Ice Fields according to their proper orbital IDs. The client sorts the belts according to their DB item IDs and in a few solar systems they are now displayed in the "incorrect" order. This has been fixed in an internal build and will be released later.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Fredou
Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2008.09.04 23:53:00 -
[48]
2 things
can we have copy url and view market detail back in the menu on a right click in chat?
thanks |
Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.05 07:55:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Arna Padrona Edited by: Arna Padrona on 04/09/2008 21:16:57
3) Critical: Overview Changes (Tabs "broken")
Adding an item to your overview, or loading an overview setting now changes the tab!
You can no longer just click a tab you previously set up and be sure what you will get. Any mistake, or thoughtlessness will immediately ruin a tab - and in a combat situation it's very dangerous if your tabs suddenly show veldspar asteroids instead of pirates!
Bug reported with ID 62089 and they tell me to put this up in the feedback thread in the forum (sigh).
Re-quoting the bug report
Description : Prior to patch Empyrean 1.1, you used to be able to change things in the overview tabs (temporarily) and then revert it back to its original settings by : 1) Single click on the same overview tab 2) Clicking on a different overview tab and clicking back to the same tab.
Issue : The single click expediency has disappeared post Empyrean 1.1 patch and the changes done to ANY of the tabs persists until you reload the profile.
This is poor implementation, reloading the profile involves : - clicking and moving the mouse over to locate the correct stored profile. - it is physically encumbering as you will have to go through 5-15 different profiles. - you will need to remember the names of the profiles in order to correctly load the Overview & Brackets settings for a particular Overview Tab.
I have a hard time believing the post patch result is as intended. To summarize, fixing the overview so that it stays persistent when you change things in the tab is OK ... but in doing so, you broke the best way of returning it back to its custom settings. Now I need to muddle through several clicks and move my mouse over to the correct profile. Any reasonable person would see this flaw in the UI logic, making it more complex instead of simpler.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 11:23:00 -
[50]
Sturmwolke, please note that the behaviour that you describe, in particular in 2) was defected to us. We changed it to the new/current behaviour at players' request.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Tuxford
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Posted - 2008.09.05 12:07:00 -
[51]
Explorer is right, this issue was defected to us and fixed. In my opinion this is not natural behaviour, at least I have never experienced that in another program that clicking a tab works as an undo.
A much natural behaviour from me would be if you want to tinker around than you do so and if you want to revert to the previously loaded overview preset you right click the tab select "change overview setting" and select the setting you want.
We could of course maintain some history of what was in the tab and have it so that if you click your active tab it undos the changes. But like I said we already have a mechanism to do that through right click command and while you might thing that the more ways to do stuff the better that is not necessarily true. I could try to explain why but Joel Spolsky explains it far better than I can in his article Choices = Headaches _______________ |
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:01:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 05/09/2008 14:04:22
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Explorer is right, this issue was defected to us and fixed. In my opinion this is not natural behaviour, at least I have never experienced that in another program that clicking a tab works as an undo.
A much natural behaviour from me would be if you want to tinker around than you do so and if you want to revert to the previously loaded overview preset you right click the tab select "change overview setting" and select the setting you want.
We could of course maintain some history of what was in the tab and have it so that if you click your active tab it undos the changes. But like I said we already have a mechanism to do that through right click command and while you might thing that the more ways to do stuff the better that is not necessarily true. I could try to explain why but Joel Spolsky explains it far better than I can in his article Choices = Headaches
It doesn't matter if it's not a natural behaviour. Think outside the box. The fact still remains that if I need to undo any temporary changes without affecting the tab's original settings, I can simply do it in one simple click. It was fairly intuitive when it first came out, despite its "defect" label.
Secondly, I wouldn't mind so much about the new changes if I use them rarely. As it is, I frequently use them to eliminate wrecks in the overview when doing missions and then reverting it back to original setting once the the pocket has been cleared of enemies. The same thing applies when I'm mining. Now I have to contend moving the mouse over and finding the correct Overview OR Bracket, then mouse over to the correct Profile. Imo, these are absurd steps for something which has a high frequency of usage.
Finally, to condense everything, all I'm asking is for CCP to acknowledge this fact and move forward to find a more palatable solution for this issue.
Remember the Alt key debacle?
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CCP Tuxford
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sturmwolke It doesn't matter if it's not a natural behaviour. Think outside the box. The fact still remains that if I need to undo any temporary changes without affecting the tab's original settings, I can simply do it in one simple click. It was fairly intuitive when it first came out, despite its "defect" label.
Secondly, I wouldn't mind so much about the new changes if I use them rarely. As it is, I frequently use them to eliminate wrecks in the overview when doing missions and then reverting it back to original setting once the the pocket has been cleared of enemies. The same thing applies when I'm mining. Now I have to contend moving the mouse over and finding the correct Overview OR Bracket, then mouse over to the correct Profile. Imo, these are absurd steps for something which has a high frequency of usage.
Finally, to condense everything, all I'm asking is for CCP to acknowledge this fact and move forward to find a more palatable solution for this issue.
Remember the Alt key debacle?
Seems a bit silly way to do it tbh. Personally I'd just have two tabs, one with the setting you want when killing the other with the setting you use for looting. Unless you've filled your five tabs with stuff that you absolutely need to have one click away in which case we might be persuaded to allow more tabs but I doubt that is the case.
This undo feature is only ever acceptable if you are experimenting with settings all the time but my impression is that you're constantly removing the same thing from your overview.
Sorry mate so far you haven't convinced me that this defect fix needs to be undone. _______________ |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:17:00 -
[54]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 14:21:15
If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work.
That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Imhothar Xarodit
Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:41:00 -
[55]
Why not keep the option?
People who like the old behaviour can keep it and people who prefer the new behaviour can use that instead.
Customization is key!
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.05 14:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
Seems a bit silly way to do it tbh. Personally I'd just have two tabs, one with the setting you want when killing the other with the setting you use for looting. Unless you've filled your five tabs with stuff that you absolutely need to have one click away in which case we might be persuaded to allow more tabs but I doubt that is the case.
This undo feature is only ever acceptable if you are experimenting with settings all the time but my impression is that you're constantly removing the same thing from your overview.
Sorry mate so far you haven't convinced me that this defect fix needs to be undone.
Originally by: CCP Explorer
If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work.
That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit.
Mein gott .. 2 against 1, unfair!
To answer CCP Tuxford/Explorer, I wouldn't bet 10-15 tabs's enough for the variation of settings that can be out there. To me, certain things like wrecks or even drones are dynamic. They change according to the situation. I don't remove wrecks from the overview until it clutters it up ... or if I need to concentrate on the targets. What I do not need however are 2-3 different identical tabs that only differs with wrecks or drones turned off. That would be the penultimate silliness, tbh.
I'm not looking for more than 5 tabs. I'm not looking for for CCP to bring back the old style if they're adamant about it.
What I'm looking for is a reduction in steps for the current overview tabs so that I can run it though without having to trip over with my mouse. Do I even need to suggest something simple as adding an extra choice called "Return Original Tab Settings" in the choices to that I don't have to mess around with either the Overview Settings nor the Brackets Settings?
There have been many posts about this scattered all over the forums in many different wordings. Part of the problem is proper description since it's not something you can easily describe consistently.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 15:36:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Arna Padrona on 05/09/2008 15:39:17
Im afraid I too have to disagree with our CCP counterparts here. The new behaviour is problematic.
I already use all my tabs. Heck, I could easily use ten tabs, and *still* need to make temporary overview changes, or load temporary settings, becuase I'm "out of tabs".
For example: I like to have the following settings, at LEAST:
NAV: Only stargates and bases. (Ever tried locating a stargate in the overview when launching from Rens, Brutor?) FOE: Only enemy and neutral ships. (MUST have for fleet warfare.) FRIEND: Only friendly ships. (MUST have for fleet warfare.) SKIRMISH: All ships, but only ships. Useful for smaller engagements. NPC: Standard mission setup. WRECKS: Missions setup with wrecks added. E-WARP: Lists only planets and moons. (A super-fast way of finding a "random" warp-out point in a hot situation.) FW: Complexes need a special and delicate mix of beacons, npcs, and player ships. VELDSPAR:... SCORDITE: ... PY... ARKONOR: ...
As things are now, I have no choice but to settle for 4 tabs with permanent settings, and use one of the tabs as the "junk tab" - the one where I can load or change, confident that it will not ruin my fleet settings.
However, a mistake will still change one of my important fleet tabs. If I forget to switch to the junk tab first, I also end up destroying a tab.
This is not good. This is not good at all.
I can understand the comparison to tabs in browsers, but I also disagree with it strongly. These tabs are "temporary", and in a constant state of flux. A browser tab is a workspace, not a setting. The overview tabs may look like browser tabs, but I see them as nothing but a way to quickload a predefined setting - and judging from the overwhelming responses all over the forums, so did 90% of the player base.
I hope you take the matter into advicement. Settings only make sense if they stay set.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:22:00 -
[58]
IF you decide that this new tab behaviour is what you want, then you need to make more changes to make it functional:
For example, if I have a tab that says "ENEMIES", I expect to click it and see the enemies. There's no quick-n-easy way to verify that this is true.
So here's the changes that you would have to implement, as a bare minimum:
1) Tabs need to indicate what they actually DO. So, for example, you could make the active tab's NAME be forced to the currently loaded overview SETTINGS NAME.
2) You can currently load an overview setting through the setting window, through the tab menu, and through the main menu. Honestly, remove the main menu load/save, and just settle for load/save in the tabs.
3) Consider the overview settings window as well. Is there a reason to have a tab-setup area here, for something that's not in any way set? This area in the settings just leads people to thing that we are in fact dealing with SETTINGS, not WORKSPACES in flux.
4) Probably wouldn't hurt to make sure the currently used bracket setting is listed somewhere too, so you can see what that is set to as well.
5) We also have the interesting situation now that the overview "setting" is in a state of flux, but the brackets are actual permanent settings. I'm not sure what to do about this, but it warrants some thought from your part.
I still don't agree that this is a good way to do it all, but if you are going to do this, it needs to be done right. We need to be able to tell what the tabs do.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:27:00 -
[59]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 17:28:25
Originally by: Sturmwolke I'm not looking for for CCP to bring back the old style if they're adamant about it.
Please understand our position. CCP Tuxford implemented the previous version and it was defected by players. Based on that feedback he implemented this new version. And you don't like it. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't
The way the current version works is that if you have tabs T1 and T2 and load settings S1 and S2, if you make a modification M1 to T1 then S1+M1 is written into the setting "Not Saved" and T1 is switched to that setting. If you switch to T2 then you get S2, if you switch back to T1 then you get "Not Saved". If you then switch to T2 and make a modification M2 then S2+M2 is written into "Not Saved" and T2 is switched to that setting. Both T1 and T2 are then on the "Not Saved" setting.
We have considered having more than one "Not Saved" setting, essentially S1 and S1* and S2 and S2* (where the * is the often used indicator that a something has changed but has not yet been saved). In that design T1 would switch from S1 to S1+M1=S1* and T2 would switch from S2 to S2+M2=S2*.
But we want to keep this simple and not add buttons and options all over if that doesn't solve the use cases.
Note that you can have many more settings than tabs; while we have to restrict the number of tabs because of space in the UI then we don't want to restrict the number of settings to 5. For example, reading your description it would seem that you should have a "kill" setting and a "loot" setting and load into two tabs. When you are doing something else you would load something completely different into some other tabs.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Azuse
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests Pure.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:06:00 -
[60]
Out of curiosity, how many other people have the fleet stabber vanish after they use a stargate? -------------------------
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:20:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Arna Padrona on 05/09/2008 18:35:15
I understand that the devs are in a bit of a tight spot here but...
We used to have tabs functions as settings, and that was ok. If they function as workspaces instead - I'll learn to live with it, but they don't even do that. Like Explorer said, if you try to use them as the workspaces they are now supposed to be - changing one tab will not only change this tab - but every other tab as well, unless they are loaded to a specific setting.
So now we neither have settings, nor individual workspaces, but a sort of half-functional in-between, that doesn't do EITHER job well. I honestly fail to see the improvement here. This half-n-half is pretty messy, and it creates more problems than it solves.
Basically we are back to status quo, except with one tab less (default). We can still only modify one tab, you can't touch the others. Only now...you can make mistakes and mess up tabs by accident.
Workspaces, or settings. Pick one and go with it. All the way.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 18:33:00 -
[62]
It should be trivially possible to save those settings to "Saved Tab 1", "Saved Tab 2", ... "Saved Tab 5" - I don't think that the current behavior is a solution to the original defect :-)
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:11:00 -
[63]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 19:15:32
Originally by: Arna Padrona Workspaces, or settings. Pick one and go with it. All the way.
The tabs are not settings, they are workspaces into which settings are loaded. If you change from one tab to another then the last loaded setting is retained. Switching from one setting to another is a simple matter of right-clicking the tab and selecting the new setting. "Changing the tab" sets the Not saved setting appropriately and loads it into the tab.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:51:00 -
[64]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 14:21:15
If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work.
That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit.
this is what you dont understand. when you are using a custom tab and you load a different overview setting, IT OVERWRITED YOUR saved tab settings! without asking you!
imagine if everytime you removed something off your overview it OVERWROTE your overview preset. it doesnt, it creates a new, unsaved overview preset, which is exactly what SHOULD happen with the tabs. if you load a new overview preset in the tab, then it should make a new, unsaved custom tab. if people want to "work" on their tabs as you say, they can go into the tab settings and change it there.
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 19:54:00 -
[65]
Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 19:54:00
Originally by: Arna Padrona
As things are now, I have no choice but to settle for 4 tabs with permanent settings, and use one of the tabs as the "junk tab" - the one where I can load or change, confident that it will not ruin my fleet settings.
However, a mistake will still change one of my important fleet tabs. If I forget to switch to the junk tab first, I also end up destroying a tab.
QFT
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The tabs are not settings, they are workspaces into which settings are loaded. If you change from one tab to another then the last loaded setting is retained. Switching from one setting to another is a simple matter of right-clicking the tab and selecting the new setting. "Changing the tab" sets the Not saved setting appropriately and loads it into the tab. The Not saved setting is global.
well this is where i think CCP implementation failed. people dont want workspaces for tabs! i use tabs in combat! or i used to, but now it would be completely foolish to use tabs in combat because if you happen to make one temporary change to your tab then it just became useless because tabs dont remember their saved settings. imagine if you had a word document, and any letter that you typed overrode the saved file, without asking you. how would you get back to the original file? you cant, and that is the problem with the current system.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:27:00 -
[67]
You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:33:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Please understand our position. CCP Tuxford implemented the previous version and it was defected by players. Based on that feedback he implemented this new version. And you don't like it. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't
But we want to keep this simple and not add buttons and options all over if that doesn't solve the use cases.
Right, exactly. You have described the current implementation of the Overview tab mechanics clearly. It's fine as it is with regard to the "Not Saved" setting staying unique for each T1, T2 etc. However, let me also add that lumping S1 isn't totally accurate. There are 2 settings that make up the each Overview tab - Overview Settings (V1) and Bracket Settings (B1).
Now, Arna Padrona's comments are a little bit more expansive, but the root issue remains the same. My comments tend to lean to a specific function that I would consider as critical for a fully functional tab. Granted I'd like to see a more elegant implementation, but one must make do with whatever's at hand.
Let me point out the critical weakness for the current Overview mechanics :
1. there is no short way of reverting T1 settings back to its custom V1 and B1 that had been originally set for the tab. There is little point in worrying about S1 settings, these are just a temporary modifications which the user can have the option to either save as a new V1 or B1 profile, keep using it or just simply discard it. I know that B1 settings are not affected when you deal with the Overview changes, but I included it for the sake of completeness.
2. you maybe needlessly confusing players with having B1 option present in the menu. If their intent is to fix their Overview, they'll be wondering which V1 or B1 setting should be modified. Only the experienced players will be able to understand and differentiate between those two. It never fails. If you're on the SAK channel on weekends, you can enjoy the many bingos where people keep asking how to make a non-existant Villard Wheel.
3.there are no clear standard way to distinguish between a V1 profile and B1 profile. The only way I can distinguish them right now is to append "bracket" to the profile names. Granted they are identical in all respects, but failing to automatically categorize them leads to confusion. If CCP intends to make this game more newbie friendly, then it needs to look at it from an idiot's perspective.
4. there is also no quick indicator to tell you which V1 and B1 profiles are being used for tab T1. The only way to check this is through the main Overview settings windows and tab over to the overview tab.
5. you'll also notice that there's a lot of confusion around overview settings, bracket settings, main overview settings wording. This makes it hard for users to articulate their problems. I would suggest a revamp of the wording so that the word "overview" isn't overly used or cannot be easily confused with another function.
I got my bug report on this thrown back because it wasn't a bug. Now, where does one air their issues out so that devs are willing to take a serious look at them? Do I need to create a petition thread in Eve General forum so that you'll get an idea on how many folks out there with the same problem?
My single biggest concern is point 1. If you merge it with 2, 3 and 4, it gets bigger. Imagine going through what? 10-20 different profile settings just to revert your overview tab to its original V1. If CCP don't see this as an issue, then I give up. It's the proverbial brick wall. Thanks for the replies anyways.
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:37:00 -
[69]
Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
even if it is used as a workspace, it should still have the option of creating a saved tab, a final product of the work. your implementation does not. instead you offer five tabs that are not savable.
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:50:00 -
[70]
Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 20:51:21 Edited by: SK Rooster on 05/09/2008 20:50:43
Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
another question i have is that why would tabs be set up as workspaces and overview presets not? i mean if were going to make workspaces lets follow your vision through...
imagine now for overview presets we now have overview workspaces, so that any time we load a overview workspace, and change it in some way, say adding or removing stargates, it automatically overwrites the saved overview workspace without asking you. now wouldnt that be great? no it wouldnt
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:53:00 -
[71]
I think perhaps the point has gone though either way:
1) The setting-people are not happy, because their work is overwritten (even though the setting ITSELF is still saved.) 2) The workspace people are not happy (because tabs overwrite eachother, due to the fact that there's only one "not saved" setting).
The solutions are fairly simple:
If we want "settings" (and clearly we don't, I've been told) then just keep the autosave to "not saved", but remove the way tabs change their settings to use "not saved"in the future.
If we want "workspaces" (apparently we do) then add 5 different "not saved" settings, so the tabs don't interfere with each other.
Better yet: DO BOTH, and then add an option: Do you want tabs to automatically save new settings? (Yes/No) Whenever a tab changes, it's a simple matter of:
if ( option == TRUE ) { Set tab to Not Saved X. }
This way we get workspaces that work, with the option of having them have persistant settings.
Wouldn't this be the best solution, and in fact make everyone happy?
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:02:00 -
[72]
The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:15:00 -
[73]
Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
the problem that i have with workspaces is that for certain situations in eve, ie PVP, i dont want a workspace. i want my overview and brackets to come up 1 exact way, the way i have it saved. lets say i wanted to load a particular overview preset. well with the old system i could just single click the custom tab and it would load that saved preset regardless of what my current settings were. now, if i want to do the same thing i have to right click the overview, fine the correct overview preset on the list, and click it.
you turned 1 step into 3, and removed my ability to save tab settings on top of that.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:27:00 -
[74]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea.
I'm not a big fan of the workspaces myself, much preferring settings, but if the workspaces is the way the devs are dead-set on, adding 5 default save settings isn't something that should be considered; it's something that absolutely should be added without delay. Workspace tabs are not functional without it.
Please, though, pretty please, consider making the tabs auto-set themselves to the default save optional. There's a lot of us, as you can tell, that really like the idea of having the tabs act in a persistent manner, and it shouldn't prove that difficult to take care of that.
I guess that's it for me on this matter. I'll go mine something in silence, and hope for the best.
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nutbar
Caldari Flair Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:25:00 -
[75]
I'm amazed by how many people actually *LIKED* the default tab overview *BUG* that caused it to never remember an overview preset assigned to it (it was always "not saved"). It's odd that people actually had it working to their liking, considering it constantly was picking random overview settings and not keeping one specific set (and resetting back to it on tab switches).
Anyways, the people asking to have it constantly "reset" after modifying a tabs overview setting is very weird - it doesn't make sense really, because then what *should* it save and what shouldn't it? Maybe just having a way to save an overview setting to the default tab is what they really want, and if they then modify the overview, it doesn't cause it to update the saved data so that if you swap to a different tab (well, not possible now - hah) it just re-loads the saved data which "resets" it to what it used to be. I don't see implementing that as being a huge challenge for CCP/Tuxford.
Personally though, I'm glad the BUG was fixed - I'm certainly not whining to have it reverted back. I just wish we had more than 5 tabs :( I used all 6 tabs before, and now being one short screws me over. Can we have maybe 10 tabs?
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: nutbar I'm amazed by how many people actually *LIKED* the default tab overview *BUG* that caused it to never remember an overview preset assigned to it (it was always "not saved"). It's odd that people actually had it working to their liking, considering it constantly was picking random overview settings and not keeping one specific set (and resetting back to it on tab switches).
Anyways, the people asking to have it constantly "reset" after modifying a tabs overview setting is very weird - it doesn't make sense really, because then what *should* it save and what shouldn't it? Maybe just having a way to save an overview setting to the default tab is what they really want, and if they then modify the overview, it doesn't cause it to update the saved data so that if you swap to a different tab (well, not possible now - hah) it just re-loads the saved data which "resets" it to what it used to be. I don't see implementing that as being a huge challenge for CCP/Tuxford.
Obvious answer to the first paragraph was because prior to patch 1.1 (or perhaps earlier patches), the custom tab needed to have BOTH Overview and Brackets settings to be populated with a valid profile before it would work properly. Leaving out one or the other borks the tab and your overview. I've had numerous occasions where I mentioned this in the chat channels when people complained about their overview not behaving as what was set.
People are not asking asking for a constant reset. For my own part, I had been asking that CCP reduce the steps involved in "resetting" the custom tab if they're adamant about whatever they're thinking is the right way to go. This has very little to do with persistent "Not Saved" setting.
What works shouldn't be dismissed summarily, just because it was a bug. The current "Not Saved" persistence makes things painful when you want to change to an overview setting that had been specifically optimized and preset in the custom tab. Why do I want to reload the custom tab to whatever that was set? Because I don't want to remember what things I had removed from the overview temporarily. Even if I was a memory master, I'd have to locate the item in space to add it back. Does anyone prefer to do this?
Try changing your overview setting for a tab. See if you like navigating your mouse over to the correct overview profile - from over 10-20 stored profiles. Compare this to the old behaviour. That's what I had to put up with whevever I want to reset/revert back my custom tab countless times when I needed a small temporary change here and there.
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.06 01:30:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Try changing your overview setting for a custom tab. See if you like navigating your mouse over to the Overview Settings menu and then pick from over 10-20 stored profiles. That's what I had to put up with whevever I want to reset/revert back my custom tab countless times when I needed a small temporary change here and there. Compare this to the old behaviour when you want to reset/revert back the custom tab.
this is my complaint exactly
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.06 01:53:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 06/09/2008 01:54:31 While I'm still saddled with insomnia, consider :
- re-wording "Brackets Settings" to "Space Environment Settings" or anything palatably shorter that can describe it more intuitively. - replacing the word "bracket" with something more intuitive e.g. "objects" or "environment objects" - re-wording the main "Overview Settings" to "Overview Control Panel" - re-defining the saved settings as "Profiles" rather that referrring to them as settings. - remove the duplicated profile load - either you can load when clicking on the arrow or you can load when right clicking on the custom tab. It's not an issue if you only have the Overview Profile to worry about, but in this case, you have the Bracket Profile mucking up the the logic and generally renders the interface confusing and un-intuitive.
The above would minimize false positives and make things considerably easier for the un-initiated user to describe their problems. There, I can sleep easy now.
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Ferrim
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Posted - 2008.09.06 02:30:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 05/09/2008 14:21:15
If I have multiple tabs open in my browser or multiple files open in my editor, then I wouldn't want the act of switching from one tab to another and then back to reset my work.
That's where from we are drawing the parallel, and I would guess also the defect we got. That is, the action to reset the state of the tab to its original saved state should be explicit.
I agree with you if I am editing a document. However, the ability to set a tab so that it would always load the same overview was EXTREMLY natural to me. This meant that I didn't have to use a menu to get that overview setting loaded. If I am allowed to set a tab to a particular overview setting, I expect that tab to always load that setting I set it to. Otherwise, why bother setting the tab to an overview, if every time I want that overview I must right click and select it from a menu anyways. The ability to change and undo is exactly natural it this case, because I SET that tab to that setting I wanted it to load. If you still think that is unatural, the change the the tabs to buttons. Seems to be a matter of semantics to me.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 02:45:00 -
[80]
There is actually one more reason why having persistent tabs (the old behaviour) is preferable to non-persistent tabs (new behaviour) that I haven't already thought of - simple because I try my hardest not to use tabs as "workspaces":
If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings. You can see what the tab DOES show, provided it's THERE for us to see. Considering how most people set very restricting brackets for lag-issues, it's virtually impossible to see what the tab does show, even if there ARE objects around you don't show. Remembering what 5 different tabs do, after more than 20 minutes turns into a memory-game.
So, we are essentially forced to load settings that we know what they do either way, and then the question is: Why would we want auto-saving tabs, when we can't remember what they do int the fisrt place?
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Veinless
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.06 04:28:00 -
[81]
To me, the overview tabs are templates. I set them up in the Overview Settings Window. The purpose of that window is to make permanent changes to overview settings. When I click on the tabs, I expect them to show up as I configured them in the overview settings window. The tabs should be consistant and unaltered from how I had configured them.
If I modify my settings outside of the Overview Settings Window (eg. by right-clicking on something in space), then I am customizing a template for my current situation. I sure do not expect it to alter my template. That is, when I click to a different tab and then back to my first tab, I expect it to be as I had set it up in the Overview Settings Window.
Please return the original behaviour, as this new behaviour is a defect. Or allow the option to use old behaviour versus new behaviour. Or if I must be stuck with this new behaviour, please add a button to Return Tab to Original Settings. Do I need to file a petition/bug report on this or is a vote in this thread sufficient?
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 13:20:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Sturmwolke For my own part, I had been asking that CCP reduce the steps involved in "resetting" the custom tab if they're adamant about whatever they're thinking is the right way to go.
The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting).
Originally by: Sturmwolke What works shouldn't be dismissed summarily, just because it was a bug.
A bug is a feature?
Originally by: Arna Padrona If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings.
But there is a way. The tab is labeled with its name and right above the tab you will the text "Overview (<current setting name>)" that tells you what profile is loaded.
Originally by: Sturmwolke consider: - re-wording the current Bracket/Overview "Settings" to "Profiles" - re-wording the main "Overview Settings" to "Overview Control Panel"
We will consider that.
In general we are not going back to the previous behaviour since that work was defected to us and didn't work as players expected. But we definitely want iterate on the current behaviour.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.06 15:25:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 06/09/2008 15:25:13
Originally by: CCP Explorer The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting)
Yes, go ahead and try that with 10-20 profiles listed in the overview settings. Navigate and move your mouse to it. Notice anything different? How many inches do you think the mouse cursor needed to travel in addition to having to precisely control it in order to pick the CORRECT profile? Pile on more profiles and increase your frequency - feel any good about it yet? *facepalms*
The brackets settings are of lesser concern since it's not changed that often, when compared to the overview.
Originally by: CCP Explorer A bug is a feature?
Is this true or false? Many modern inventions are the result of accidental discovery. I'm not arguing about bug=feature. I'm merely pointing out that it works and one should not dismiss its quirky potential for current/future UI designs.
Originally by: CCP Explorer In general we are not going back to the previous behaviour since that work was defected to us and didn't work as players expected. But we definitely want iterate on the current behaviour.
After so many posts, I'm sure you're well aware of an easy fix for this that won't return the old behaviour. Go ahead, be boneheaded about it. I'll just twiddle my thumb and see if this will turn into another Alt key case.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 15:50:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Arna Padrona If you use them as workspaces, you somehow have to remember what the tabs actually DO. There's no way to tell, other than actually opening the settings window and looking through the massive amounts of settings.
But there is a way. The tab is labeled with its name and right above the tab you will the text "Overview (<current setting name>)" that tells you what profile is loaded.
But ... oh dear.
If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved", or even with 5 different "not saved" settings, that still says nothing of any use. The only way I can read the name of the current setting in the overview header is if I use my tab to load SETTINGS and not use it as a WORKSPACE...
You see what I mean? Any time you try to use the "workspace" behaviour, you immediately loose track...
Don't you?
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 16:35:00 -
[85]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 16:36:29
Originally by: Arna Padrona If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved" (...) Any time you try to use the "workspace" behaviour, you immediately loose track... (...) Don't you?
There is just a single global Not saved profile. Personally I use that for "various miscellaneous uses" when I need something temporarily into my overview. To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.06 16:56:00 -
[86]
Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken.
Previous to patch-first tab (can't remember name...the probe bit) displayed countdown to probe cycle completion. No problems shifting between local scanner and countdown/results page.
Post patch-Shifting between scanner tab a/b as above after probe launch no longer displays active probe cycle run time...probe run time briefly flashes up (too fast to see) and then defaults to initial tab a page showing the probe actual lifetime remaining and scan groups selected.
tl;dr? You broke it.
Also...F10 map is a stuttering mess now.
**EDIT**Ooops...guess this should have been in bug reports but given the state of the "tabs" perhaps the above mess is intended as a feature .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.06 16:59:00 -
[87]
Originally by: CCP Explorer To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab.
BTW...this comes across pretty arrogant. Especially as the tabs were working rather sensibly prior to your meddling with them .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:01:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Arna Padrona on 06/09/2008 17:02:46
Quote: There is just a single global Not saved profile. Personally I use that for "various miscellaneous uses" when I need something temporarily into my overview. To answer your question, it doesn't confuse me and I don't loose track of what's in a particular overview tab.
And that of course assumes that the devs have already scrapped the idea of adding 5 different "not saved" tabs. That WOULD be hard to remember.
But... if we are to use only one tab as a workspace, then why not just put the default tab BACK, and let the rest of the tabs be persistent? At least this way all the other tabs wont keep colliding with each other with every change, and mess things up.
No matter how many ways we swing this around, there's no way anyone is going to convince me that the current overview is in any way intuitive, or an indication of what a majority of the players want. It's not functional workspaces. It's not functional settings. It's a half-functional inbetween - with severe problems. It's a mess, pure and simple.
The amarrian part in me will pray that you devs see the light, and at least add an option to disable the way tabs switch to "Not Saved" without asking first. It's a really small change. One option in the settings. One boolean value to save. One if-statement. Please, at least give us a choice.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:13:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Arna Padrona on 06/09/2008 17:15:43
Found 1.1 Bugs:
1) Asteroid belts no longer sort in order in the system menu.
2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken.
See here.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:37:00 -
[91]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 17:51:50
Originally by: Arna Padrona 1) Asteroid belts no longer sort in order in the system menu.
See here.
Originally by: Arna Padrona 2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.
I tested this; neither the spinning target boxes next to the the overview nor in space disappeared. But the target lines that extend to the sides of the windows (the crosshairs) disappeared and didn't come back. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, there's a defect on this issue since Trinity 1.1.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.06 17:47:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Arna Padrona
If you change a tab, that text isn't there, is it? It just reads "not saved", or even with 5 different "not saved" settings, that still says nothing of any use. The only way I can read the name of the current setting in the overview header is if I use my tab to load SETTINGS and not use it as a WORKSPACE...
Knowing an custom Overview Tab label doesn't give you a clear indication on WHICH two templates have been applied to construct the Tab. You're only getting half the information.
The first thing they need to solve is how to display those two settings without having the players run their mouse through a marathon. The information is there, but it's not within easy access.
The second thing they need to re-consider is usage. From the CCP replies, I'm getting the feeling that they're treating the two settings as explicit and absolute. In other words, encourage the players to setup as many settings as possible and load them as you see fit for the different situations. There's nothing wrong with this. However, they seem to be forgetting players who routinely modify these settings on-the-fly, who got penalized due to the removal of the quick revert-back/reset function.
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 18:04:00 -
[93]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Arna Padrona 2) Switching tabs disables all target reticles. They re-appear when you click the targets.
I tested this; neither the spinning target boxes next to the the overview nor in space disappeared. But the target lines that extend to the sides of the windows (the crosshairs) disappeared and didn't come back. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, there's a defect on this issue since Trinity 1.1.
Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings. If that doesn't work, I'll guess I'll have to do the job and find the exact bug.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 18:21:00 -
[94]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 18:27:01
Originally by: Arna Padrona Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings.
Had two tabs with different overview and bracket profiles (one showing stations and the other not showing them). Targeted a station and switched tabs. The crosshairs disappeared but not the spinning box. Tried again with two profiles neither of which showed stations. Same result, only the crosshairs disappeared. Try with empty settings/cache (rename the settings/cache parent folder). Same result? Are you targeting one or more items?
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.09.06 18:49:00 -
[95]
Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 06/09/2008 18:50:47 When undocking, or joining a fleet, the tabs go haywire.
The selected items window usually moves below the overview, having a chat window minimized and right-click closing it also screws up the way you have your windows setup.
You can't pin them in the position you want them to stay them in... grr...
Edit: Also, say you have a few items in your market's quick list. If you right-click and remove all of them, the market window decides to spontaneously load up about 1000 entries into it instead.
Football? Hell yes. |
Jesho
Minmatar Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.06 20:39:00 -
[96]
Originally by: CCP Explorer We have considered having more than one "Not Saved" setting, essentially S1 and S1* and S2 and S2* (where the * is the often used indicator that a something has changed but has not yet been saved). In that design T1 would switch from S1 to S1+M1=S1* and T2 would switch from S2 to S2+M2=S2*.
that or something similar is what I've always wanted, even before you introduced the tabs.
i was thinking something like: if you load a saved setting this is marked as active for that tab, possibly with some kind of radio button in the menu to indicate that its the active one. and then any changes made is auto saved back to that active setting.
Originally by: CCP Explorer But we want to keep this simple and not add buttons and options all over if that doesn't solve the use cases.
Yes, keep it simple. i'm not sure i think the current overview is simple, just look at the number of guides out there on how to setup the overview. but its not easy to change now that everyone has gotten used to how the current behavior.
it should be so easy to setup that you don't need any guides to figure out how it works.
and i don't agree with the change you made to remove the Default tab when you have custom tabs, it's odd and not intuitive
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Jesho
Minmatar Swedish Aerospace Inc Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.09.06 20:53:00 -
[97]
Originally by: CCP Explorer You are misunderstanding the behaviour of the tabs. They don't overwrite your settings, they are simply workspaces that switch from one setting to another. Your Word document example is the opposite behaviour of the tabs.
if i understand your previous post changing any tab makes it use the "not saved" setting and since that is global you just potentially destroyed another tabs "not saved" setting.
i think that's where the overwrite part came from.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 21:39:00 -
[98]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 21:40:13
Originally by: Jesho if i understand your previous post changing any tab makes it use the "not saved" setting and since that is global you just potentially destroyed another tabs "not saved" setting.
Yes, except since the Not saved profile is global and common to all the tabs, then strictly speaking there is no such thing as "another tabs "not saved" setting". The Not saved profile is a fluid/dynamic profile of "recently changed filters".
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.09.06 22:45:00 -
[99]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: RuleoftheBone Just to break the subject of borked "tabs"...the scanner GUI for probe deployment is now broken.
See here.
It was worth repeating...you know...because I love scrolling through "known issue/bug" threads when things that worked fine pre-patch suddenly go wonky in an annoying fashion. And it's not just "exploration probes" as you say....its ship probes as well (you know...Fathoms and such) and it does NOT correct itself after initial probe drop .
Less arrogance.....more fix please.
And yeah....the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal .
It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.06 22:53:00 -
[100]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 22:54:27
Originally by: RuleoftheBone it's not just "exploration probes" as you say....its ship probes as well (you know...Fathoms and such) and it does NOT correct itself after initial probe drop
Has been fixed internally and will be released later.
Originally by: RuleoftheBone And yeah....the new tabs (...) It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.
According to the player made defect we got it was broken before
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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SK Rooster
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.06 23:15:00 -
[101]
Originally by: CCP Explorer The steps before to reset tab A involved two mouse clicks: Click tab B and then tab A again. Now you right-click tab A and click the overview setting you want (you can also load another bracket setting).
this is simply not correct. as stated in my previous post IN THIS THREAD, "the steps before to reset tab A" involved ONE mouse click, not two. if you changed any settings for a tab, you could simply click the tab that you wanted reverted, even if it was the active tab, and it would change back to the saved settings. this "broken" status as you have told us was "reported as a defect", that is an opinion of the person that made the defect.
who is to say that it was a defect when to many people IN THIS THREAD, it is agreed that the old method was simpler and more intuitive than the current system. in fact:
Originally by: RuleoftheBone ...the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal.
i will be doing the same as this person until the tabs are fixed to the previous state. now tell me, how does it reflect that there are some people that are so put off by the new system that they would rather delete all tabs then use them in the current state?
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Sturmwolke
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.09.07 02:19:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Sturmwolke on 07/09/2008 02:43:58
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
And yeah....the new tabs (regardless of your attempts to explain them) are utterly unfriendly as compared to previous. It's cool though...I deleted them all and returned to using the awesome "right-click little tiny arrow thingy on OV" method to actually get my OV settings changing as normal .
Oh this is interesting, guess I was too focused on the tabs that I'd overlook the duplicates in the overview arrow - even though it was mentioned in one of my earlier post.
In effect, it meant that the custom tabs act as placeholders for the Bracket Settings. Simply put, you load the overview for ANY custom tab using the arrow and switch tabs accordingly to get the correct Bracket Settings. Pretty odd combination since I think the original intent was to have each custom tab hold both Bracket Settings and Overview Settings
Not as good as the old behaviour, but close enough.
Now, if they can separate the settings so that Overview Settings load from the arrow and Bracket Settings load from right-clicking the custom tab, we might have a winner. Whatever methods, bottomline, they need to provide some distinction for the Brackets Settings so that it doesn't list out with the Overview Settings.
P.S I was talking in the chat channels and the topic on keeping the overview tab settings across multiple clients cropped up. I'm guessing some folks cba to copy these settings across multiple client because there's no easy way to preserve them and package them over. So it's probably under utilized by many folks as it is .. even before 1.1
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Kamikaze Dan
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Posted - 2008.09.07 07:23:00 -
[103]
Originally by: CCP Explorer According to the player made defect we got it was broken before
Out of interst,how many ppl defected it before, and how many defected the current bahviour. I liked the fact that it would always reset to what I told it to go to after I had clicked away. Current overview tab behaviour = defect. Also current reprocessing screen = defect / lag monster.
And the lag ... OMG the lag! It jumped *hugely* when Faction warfare came in, and it is almost unplayable this weekend. Yes, I'm a carebear mission runner/industrialist. The places I worked to get access to decent L4 agents 4-6 months ago (never mostu), which had *no* noticable lag, all got lagged with FW intro and no apparent increase in players in local, and now... <sigh> I had times where I would spend 1+ minute waiting for a module to start flashing "I am *trying* to activate" as opposed to even being active.
Dan
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.09.07 10:29:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 07/09/2008 10:51:21 I think the last patch has done some serious damage to the market system.
I am not docked in jita, but was buying remotely some stuff there (injector overdrive II). Well, I tried to buy from the best offerer, and got the message that essentially says "the order you tried to buy from is not there anymore. Refresh your info.". So, no matter, I try to buy from the second offerer... same message. Third offerer, same thing. Fourth offerer, same thing.
I had the same problem yesterday.
This is strange. The offerers were all selling bulk stuffs, it wasn't only 1 or 2 pieces, and then apparently hundreds of pieces were all sold out. BTW, I have the automatic refresh option active in my settings.
Any explanation of this behavior or we have got a situation here?
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Arna Padrona
Amarr Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.07 11:47:00 -
[105]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 18:27:01
Originally by: Arna Padrona Target reticles in space vanish, box, lines and spinner. Try switching between tabs that have different bracket settings.
Had two tabs with different overview and bracket profiles (one showing stations and the other not showing them). Targeted a station and switched tabs. The crosshairs disappeared but not the spinning box. Tried again with two profiles neither of which showed stations. Same result, only the crosshairs disappeared. Try with empty settings/cache (rename the settings/cache parent folder). Same result? Are you targeting one or more items?
The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.07 12:54:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Arna Padrona The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.
Yes, you're right, there is a another defect on tab switching, targeting and asteroids that describes this issue. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, the defect is since Trinity 1.1.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.09.07 13:28:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 07/09/2008 13:35:50 Wrong thread.
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Feilamya
Minmatar 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.07 20:03:00 -
[108]
Things that should be client-side
Originally by: gordon861
window positions screen colours
Things that should be server-side
Originally by: gordon861
overview settings/tabs bookmark folders market favourites
Reason: Window positions are really client-specific. If you play EVE on different computers (say, a PC and a laptop with different screen resolutions), you want different settings.
All the rest is character-specific. If should be stored on the server. This also forces CCP to migrate the data properly between version upgrades.
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Zanpt
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.07 23:49:00 -
[109]
When I have an Overview set up, I expect that clicking on that tab will activate the profile I associated with that tab, not some accumulation of dynamic changes I have made since clicking on that tab. When I remove wrecks or remove structures in a mission, that is dynamic. When I click on the tab I use for missions I expect the items selected in that profile to display, without exception or modification. This is in no way an "undo"... it is simply imposing the associated profile again, wiping out any dynamic changes I have made. If I want to make permanent changes to a profile I'll make them. I don't want the client effectively destroying the tab for me.
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dan drorgar
Minmatar Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.09.08 16:51:00 -
[110]
The market is completely broken.
Yesterday there was a sell order for liquid ozone for 550 ISK in Obe. Buying from that (market data => right click on offer) leads to a 5+ second delay, then:
16:48:32 Info Broker found no match for your order. Others might have been before you, or your quotes might be outdated.
Today(!) the same offer is still up, but the quantity is much lower (37k => 9k) and I still cannot buy, the error message is the same.
Looks very broken to me.
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Vandal X
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:45:00 -
[111]
On Tabs -
I find it both counterintuitive and not useful that the tab setting itself changes due to an "on the fly" adjustment.
The tab settings should be fixed. If I make an "on the fly adjustment", it should disappear the next time I go back to that tab. If I want it to have permanence, I should have to make the change to the settings themselves.
This is nature of having settings - they are fixed, so that you can jump to them immediately. Its great to be able to adjust as the need arises, but those adjustments should disappear as soon as I switch tabs (or refresh the current tab).
One possible solution would be to permit user to designate a setting as being "open" or "fixed". This would make both camps happy (presumably) and since you've had both coded shouldn't be too difficult an adjustment. I could then have 3 "fixed" tabs as well as a 4th tab that will retain adjustments to it.
Thanks.
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Veinless
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.09 00:37:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Vandal X On Tabs -
I find it both counterintuitive and not useful that the tab setting itself changes due to an "on the fly" adjustment.
The tab settings should be fixed. If I make an "on the fly adjustment", it should disappear the next time I go back to that tab. If I want it to have permanence, I should have to make the change to the settings themselves.
This is nature of having settings - they are fixed, so that you can jump to them immediately. Its great to be able to adjust as the need arises, but those adjustments should disappear as soon as I switch tabs (or refresh the current tab).
One possible solution would be to permit user to designate a setting as being "open" or "fixed". This would make both camps happy (presumably) and since you've had both coded shouldn't be too difficult an adjustment. I could then have 3 "fixed" tabs as well as a 4th tab that will retain adjustments to it.
Thanks.
I like this.
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Meebol
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Posted - 2008.09.09 20:37:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Meebol on 09/09/2008 20:43:43
Originally by: CCP Explorer The "5 different "not saved" settings" is what I was describing with the S1 vs. S1* earlier. We have been considering that and may at some point implement that idea.
Hmm. As was explained in earlier posts, tabs and settings are really independent. A tab is a 'workspace' that has some setting currently applied.
If you make 5 different "not saved" settings, you've conflated tabs and settings. That makes a confusing situation worse.
I've never tried to load the same setting in >1 tab. If I place S1 into T1 and T2, and cause two different and visually indistinguishable "Not Saved" settings to apply to both (by changing the current settings in each) what now??
First, "Not Saved" is inherently confusing; "change a setting" actually means is "switch to Not Saved" setting. That is not intuitive. The de facto convention adopted by every other "editor" use case I've had recent contact with is some indicator (usually and asterisk) that indicates "S1, modified".
Adopt this intuitive convention and "Not Saved" becomes unnecessary.
This is how:
1.) Maintain the existing design: tabs and settings are independent.
2.) Reserve one "line" at the top of the overview window, just beneath the tabs to clearly display the active setting (player defined) name.
Examples: Setting: Mining Setting: PvP Setting: Scan
3.) When a modification is performed, indicate the modified state in the setting name line.
Example: Setting: Mining (modified)
This is intuitive. The modified state is now clearly associated with the setting, and the setting hasn't rudely switched to something else ("Not Saved") unbidden.
Avoid conflating setting names and tab names. Allow independent naming. If I'd like to do the obvious thing and name my Tab "Mining" and use that to host my "Mining" setting, fine. If I happen to have some other clever convention, permit that also.
The same setting loaded to >1 tab should allow independent modification:
T1: Setting: Mining (modified) T2: Setting: Mining (modified)
Thus I may make a "base" setting, load it into two tabs and alter them on the fly without conflicting. Saving either overwrites the "base".
No extra controls, less ambiguity, better all around.
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:18:00 -
[114]
Originally by: CCP Explorer
Originally by: Arna Padrona The reticles only seem to vanish on tab switching, when you target ASTEROIDS. There may be other objects with the same behaviour, but I have not tested it extensively. Stations work fine, as do NPC ships, sentry guns... Not a game-breaking bug but still a bug.
Yes, you're right, there is a another defect on tab switching, targeting and asteroids that describes this issue. This is not new to Empyrean Age 1.1, the defect is since Trinity 1.1.
Both defects have been fixed internally and will be released in a later update.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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CCP Explorer
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Posted - 2008.09.10 11:26:00 -
[115]
Edited by: CCP Explorer on 10/09/2008 11:27:30
Originally by: Captain Apoc Lock sounds are messed up. You hear "locked" sound too many times while you are locking an object.
This has been fixed internally and will be released in a later update.
The "target locked / target acquired" sound in being extraneously played when an object arrives or leaves your immediate surrounding while your are targeting that same or another object.
Note that it is normal for the "trying to target" sound to be played continuously until the last object has been targeted.
Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson Software Director EVE Online, CCP Games |
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NetMage
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Posted - 2008.09.15 04:52:00 -
[116]
Originally by: CCP Explorer Edited by: CCP Explorer on 06/09/2008 22:54:27
Originally by: RuleoftheBone And yeah....the new tabs (...) It's not that I don't appreciate the responses (at least ya'll talk to us...and sometimes listen)...but fixing what ain't broke seems counter-intuitive.
According to the player made defect we got it was broken before
Unfortunately those of us who that tabs were fixed (naturally) did not comment, and so now it is broken for us.
Out of curiousity, if tabs don't get named stuff like e.g. MINING, STARGATES, FIGHTING so the name represents the overview settings that used to stick, what do you name your tabs?
And I always disagree about choices being bad - I prefer the thesis that people are newbies for a little while and experienced a lot longer, so supporting the experienced makes for a much better UI eventually. (Assuming you don't build a cliff.)
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Elisa Day
Shade.
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Posted - 2008.09.20 21:11:00 -
[117]
It seems obvious to me that the only reasonable solution to the tab issue is to let the players choose how they want it to be.
The way I understand it, having a "lock" checkbox in the tab configuration screen that would make it so this tab, when clicked, always loads the associated overview preset. (this is the default behavior for all the tabs in the "old" system).
Now, both sides can be happy and you can even mix the two behaviors! I personally find the new behavior senseless and essentially takes away the entire reason for having the tabs in the first place.
Also CCP, what's up with the tiny 5 tabs limit? Is there any problem with letting us have however many we want, or is this yet another example of "CCP arbitrary limits on random things (TM)"?
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Cybergoth
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.22 12:06:00 -
[118]
How about a default profile with 5 tabs
Default, Mining, Missions, Explorations, Combat
for those of us who cba with it all
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Shinigami
Gallente Shinra
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Posted - 2008.09.22 19:50:00 -
[119]
How about a 500 page UI manual. The amount of bloat in the UI is getting ridiculous. It's quickly returning to excel in space.
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PhantomMajor
Minmatar De-Medusa Industries.
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Posted - 2008.10.01 23:35:00 -
[120]
well once again i have to go thru the usual proceedure when it comes to an update patch
uninstall eve, the physically search for any remaining eve folders and delete those before downloading the client, because for some reason your damn update patches don't work for me.
and now after updating the client i hear that less than 24 hours later i have to go through the whole thing all over again.
does anyone at ccp know there A$$ from their elbow?
Ladies and gentlemen, we will shortly be experiencing some exploding followed by some crashing...so i'd hold on if i were you! |
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