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Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
   |
Posted - 2008.09.03 07:53:00 -
[1]
Eve Online already plays in wine (even premium, which isn't supported) better than under cedega. In addition, cedega out right steals code from wine and then charges for it (most recently, MSI). CCP, please stop giving them money.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 07:53:00 -
[2]
Eve Online already plays in wine (even premium, which isn't supported) better than under cedega. In addition, cedega out right steals code from wine and then charges for it (most recently, MSI). CCP, please stop giving them money.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
brainball
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:27:00 -
[3]
nice allegations, got any proof?
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Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.03 09:38:00 -
[4]
Presumably you mean proof that they steal code and not proof that eve plays under wine.
"On November 13, 2007's Development Status report, Transgaming explained that a number of modification have been made to Cedega's code to add Wine's implementation of the MSI installation system and to be able to incorporate more of Wine's codebase."
Found here: Wikipedia Article
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 09:41:00 -
[5]
I haven't gone through the cedega cvs tree (you are welcome to compare and contrast). It's pretty ridiculous. Even if they release any modifications they add to the MSI code, they increase their subscriber base because they have the MSI code, which is open source. They are selling open source.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Postlatta Mouseanon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 10:48:00 -
[6]
I have to agree with the OP.
Of course, I stopped using the Cedega client not long after release. I've tried it a few times since. But in my book it's not up to snuff.
It would be better to have an in house team working on how to property *config* wine on the major desktop distributions (Ubuntu and whatever the runner up is) rather than pay Cedega to leverage open source code that CCP has direct access to anyway.
But then again this all goes back to the decision to ditch Open GL in the early days. We wouldn't be having this conversation at all if that decision had been different given EVE's reliance on Python code.
But sadly, Direct X makes development easier since game developers have a toolbox all setup for them. And Direct X isn't allowed to be used on OS platforms other that Windows.
Folks who publish games on OGL (ID Software comes to mind) have to write a lot more code to get the same result. Microsoft knows this- which is why they took the route they did with Direct X and kept it Windows-only.
Given the success of EVE online (It *is* exceptionally viable and long term) CCP should revisit cross-platform solutions and their strategy. |
Pelf Matagraph
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Posted - 2008.09.03 11:02:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Fabrezio
I haven't gone through the cedega cvs tree (you are welcome to compare and contrast). It's pretty ridiculous. Even if they release any modifications they add to the MSI code, they increase their subscriber base because they have the MSI code, which is open source. They are selling open source.
Well- ethically you may be correct- but legally? I kinda doubt they are in violation of the GPL. Although your point, which is excellent, has little to to with legalities.
At face value the CCP arraignment with Cedega looks to me like a basic misunderstanding of the Open Source ecosystem and how to leverage it to your advantage. It is ironic, however, that in that contrast Cedega *does* seem to understand the factors involved.
Cedega does become irrelevant once software publishers realize they can leverage the wine code without the middleman- just hire the programmers and make the product work. Also throw some money at the wine team. It's going to be cheaper than a contract with Cedega (which is an assumption on my part).
As an aside- python code just FLIES running on *nix variants like Linux and OSX. So I'm still game for a native client (which will never happen).
--
I don't post on my main. The reason is simple- to remain obscure. EVE as a society is a rough place, and I like being anonymous. I'm not afraid. I'm just prudent. |
Cloricus
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 11:24:00 -
[8]
Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse?
Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother?
Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money.
The only good Goon is a dead Goon. |
Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 12:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cloricus
Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse?
Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother?
Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money.
Yes, but presumably CCP payed or is paying Transgaming for Cedega support, which as you mentioned, noone is using anyways. So why not dump them?
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Postlatta Mouseanon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 12:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Fabrezio
Originally by: Cloricus
Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse?
Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother?
Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money.
Yes, but presumably CCP payed or is paying Transgaming for Cedega support, which as you mentioned, noone is using anyways. So why not dump them?
Agreed- there's too much support out there already for on-linux gaming for CCP to be paying someone to be maintaining a "client".
I can't help but think a couple of people hired into CCP could do a better job working with Wine code internally. |
Postlatta Mouseanon
Caldari
State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 14:46:00 -
[11]
Just as an aside, to make a point, I'm testing three configs: Official Client, Crossover, and Wine.
I'll post hardware specs and the results in a day or two. |
Cloricus
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 15:27:00 -
[12]
Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source.
Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years.
The biggest difference is that Codeweavers is giving back to the community. Though that is a political point and out side the scope of this thread.
Postlatta Mouseanon, it is a very silly idea to test out performance right after a patch. Give it a week or two so that the respective releases can come out with any fixes required. Also the results will not have changed; Wine will have the best rendering, fps, performance, and usability. Crossover will be lagging slightly behind Wine. Cedega is some way off in the distance.
The only good Goon is a dead Goon. |
Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 18:39:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cloricus
Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source.
Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years.
The biggest difference is that Codeweavers is giving back to the community. Though that is a political point and out side the scope of this thread.
Postlatta Mouseanon, it is a very silly idea to test out performance right after a patch. Give it a week or two so that the respective releases can come out with any fixes required. Also the results will not have changed; Wine will have the best rendering, fps, performance, and usability. Crossover will be lagging slightly behind Wine. Cedega is some way off in the distance.
As pointed out above, its not a legal issue, its an ethical one. In addition, GIVEMEMONEY, would have to be entirely publically available and if you improved it in anyway, you would have to release that as well. Cedega releases exactly zero and continually steals from Wine and then charges for it (which noone here is using). So perhaps just in the interest of pure capitalism, CCP could save the money and give themselves a raise.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Gilbert T
Gallente
Entropians on Vacation
|
Posted - 2008.09.03 20:40:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cloricus
Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source.
Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years.
(snip)
Thanks, Cloricus - my thoughts exactly.
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Darkeen
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.04 00:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cloricus
Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it.
Mark me up as one Linux user (Ubuntu 7.10 - havent bothered to upgrade to 8.04), using the default Cedega Client AND now using Eve voice (since I discovered that the Ubuntu Sound Control panel will answays fail - test using Sound Recorder only!)
And NOT paying any money for it. When did you have to pay to use Cedega? The default client doesnt require you to pay.
Regards,
Jason Brisbane
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Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 04:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Darkeen
Edited by: Darkeen on 04/09/2008 00:31:06
Edited by: Darkeen on 04/09/2008 00:28:33
Originally by: Cloricus
Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it.
Mark me up as one Linux user (Ubuntu 7.10 - havent bothered to upgrade to 8.04), using the default Cedega Client AND now using Eve voice (since I discovered that the Ubuntu Sound Control panel will answays fail - test using Sound Recorder only!)
And NOT paying any money for it. When did you have to pay to use Cedega? The default client doesnt require you to pay.
To what are you reffering? I'm interested to know? (NO sarcam mode)
CCP is paying the money (or payed money), scroll up.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
|
Posted - 2008.09.04 12:30:00 -
[17]
Add me up as one who has been using the official client on three different occasions, gotten ****ed with it and went back to Wine. In my humblest opinion, it's crap, promises were broken, and it's morally questionable. I say screw it :/
But, as said before, CCP doesn't have much alternative.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Cloricus
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.05 09:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
CCP doesn't have much alternative.
This is entirely untrue.
http://www.codeweavers.com/
The only good Goon is a dead Goon. |
Ravow
Minmatar
Explora Empire
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.09.05 13:26:00 -
[19]
Or www.winehq.org :p
This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......).
CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :)
Ravow
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brainball
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.09.05 13:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cloricus
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
CCP doesn't have much alternative.
This is entirely untrue.
http://www.codeweavers.com/
From what I heard was that CCP approached codeweavers when they were starting up the mac/linux client and that codeweavers turned them down.
and on the point of backing the wrong horse, I ain't backing no horses. I don't really fancy horses, I am more interesting in women.
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Talis Mahn
Gemini Sun
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.09.06 10:11:00 -
[21]
I was using the Cedega wrapped client until one of Transgaming's patches seemed to break EVE for me. It forced me to switch to WINE. It took a little tweaking in the client for the Premium Graphics to run for me. I haven't gone back. I might try the official client again when it supports premium, but that will only last until Transgaming breaks it for me again.
I am not surrounded. I'm in a target rich environment. |
Lira Reib
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Posted - 2008.09.06 10:39:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15
Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis.
If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things.
Now, hiring a wine dev to support eve - now that's an idea I would be enthusiastic about.
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead
Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.09.06 17:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Lira Reib
Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15
Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis.
If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things.
Gentoo, Wine, EVE.
Works flawless for me, straight away, no ****ing around with it at all. (unlike the official version which took days to get to crash at splash screen)
Only problem at first was that user portraits were half missing, it has corrected itself.
I am running stable amd64 2008.0 release with an GF8800GT.
Dual 1024x768 clients both average 40FPS even while compiling gcc.
localhost ~ # uname -a
Linux localhost 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 #5 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 5 16:48:10 EDT 2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
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Lira Reib
|
Posted - 2008.09.07 05:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 06/09/2008 17:21:03
Originally by: Lira Reib
Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15
Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis.
If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things.
Gentoo amd64 2008.0 stable
nvidia-drivers 173.14.09
Wine 1.1.0 (With DirectX native installed, see link below)
EVE Premium Graphics.
Works flawless for me, straight away, no ****ing around with it at all. (unlike the official version which took days to get to crash at splash screen)
Only problem at first was that user portraits were half missing, it has corrected itself.
Dual 1024x768 clients both average 40FPS even while compiling gcc.
localhost ~ # uname -a
Linux localhost 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 #5 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 5 16:48:10 EDT 2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
Link to install DirectX into Wine http://www.wine-reviews.net/microsoft/directx-90c-march-2008-redistributable-on-linux-with-wine.html
I'll give DX a try, and I see there's a wine update in their repos. I don't have real high hopes, but it's not like I can stop trying.
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farfrael
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
|
Posted - 2008.09.07 15:28:00 -
[25]
my .2c
The CCP official client works for me perfectly, without any texture problems or crashes etc out of the box
It does not cover premium graphics, that's true and it's a real PITA. OTOH, i prefer performance over pretty graphics
The last time I looked on the wine HQ database entry for Eve, it is full of "this game works great if you spend 3 hours fidgeting around with insane regedit configs and options and then it still crashes and has blocky textures and god knows what else" so either the db entry isn't up to date or somebody needs to check their definition of "it runs perfectly".
As for whether CCP made the wrong choice, probably IMHO.
Ideally they should have hired some of the wine project guys to work on improving the code.
However, if the choice is between no official support or official support with cedega, i will take the official support thank you
If people are really so mad about CCP supporting cedega, why don't you contribute to wine or crossover?
you are not paying CCP anything to run eve and you are paying the same price as the windows users, why don't you pay $5 a month to wine and put your money where your mouth is?
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Glengrant
TOHA Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2008.09.07 16:21:00 -
[26]
Originally by: farfrael
my .2c
The last time I looked on the wine HQ database entry for Eve, it is full of "this game works great if you spend 3 hours fidgeting around with insane regedit configs and options and then it still crashes and has blocky textures and god knows what else" so either the db entry isn't up to date or somebody needs to check their definition of "it runs perfectly".
As for whether CCP made the wrong choice, probably IMHO.
Ideally they should have hired some of the wine project guys to work on improving the code.
However, if the choice is between no official support or official support with cedega, i will take the official support thank you
I had already played Eve for 1.5 - 2 years before the "official" client came out. I tried the "official" (cedega-wrapped) client when it came out. It had several issues that the wine version did not have:
a) copy/paste between EVE and other apps
b) can't type after alt-tab to other app (fixable by pressing ctrl-alt-shift - but still annoying and wine doesn't have that problem)
c) probably a couple others I forgot
EVE on wine works rock-stable.
If anybody had trouble getting wine running or crashes best bet is that they have an ATI card. ATI cards have a long-standing tradition of being troublesome on Linux (now getting better with newer drivers AFAIK).
Any complex fiddling with settings or whatever to get wine to run is years old (assuming NVidia card - which is a should have for gaming on Linux). You get wine 1.x, plus mstcorefonts from repository, wait a few seconds to install, install EVE (or copy old installation) and you're set.
---
Save the forum: Think before you post.
ISK BUYER = LOOSER
EVE TV- Bring it back!
|
Lira Reib
|
Posted - 2008.09.08 03:19:00 -
[27]
Installed DX. Frame rate is a little better and engine graphics work right. Had a frame rate drop, but only to 25, which is only a little worse than with the official client. Then it crashed.
So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was.
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Odhinn Vinlandii
Shadows of the Dead
Elitist Cowards
|
Posted - 2008.09.08 08:50:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 08/09/2008 08:50:17
Originally by: Lira Reib
Installed DX. Frame rate is a little better and engine graphics work right. Had a frame rate drop, but only to 25, which is only a little worse than with the official client. Then it crashed.
So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was.
Perhaps it's your system.
|
Ancy Denaries
Caldari
Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens
|
Posted - 2008.09.08 10:59:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ravow
Or www.winehq.org :p
This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......).
CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :)
Ravow
Well, CCP already stated that they didn't want to get involved with the WINE project since it's open source and not a real company they can demand stuff from. They needed a commercial company they could throw deadlines and stuff at (not that Transgaming has managed to keep a single deadline so far though). So yeah, CodeWeavers perhaps, but rumour has it that they turned down CCP. So, again, CCP doesn't have a real alternative. You can't put demands and deadlines on an opensource community.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Fabrezio
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.09.08 12:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ancy Denaries
Originally by: Ravow
Or www.winehq.org :p
This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......).
CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :)
Ravow
Well, CCP already stated that they didn't want to get involved with the WINE project since it's open source and not a real company they can demand stuff from. They needed a commercial company they could throw deadlines and stuff at (not that Transgaming has managed to keep a single deadline so far though). So yeah, CodeWeavers perhaps, but rumour has it that they turned down CCP. So, again, CCP doesn't have a real alternative. You can't put demands and deadlines on an opensource community.
You realize google is backing wine, yes? CCP wouldn't be the first company to use an open source project (which isn't a company) as a solution, and consequently, make the open source product better.
Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango |
Lira Reib
|
Posted - 2008.09.09 10:16:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 08/09/2008 08:50:17
Originally by: Lira Reib
Installed DX. Frame rate is a little better and engine graphics work right. Had a frame rate drop, but only to 25, which is only a little worse than with the official client. Then it crashed.
So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was.
Perhaps it's your system.
Anything is possible, though nothing else (for example, the cedega client) has a problem.
It started happening a lot more, so I grabbed some crash messages. Unfortunately they don't seem to be very helpful. :p If you have any recommendations I'd be interested to hear them. Also, I'd like to see your xorg.conf just out of curiosity.
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000050 at address 0x100558e8 (thread 0019), starting debugger...
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000010 at address 0x100558e8 (thread 0019), starting debugger...
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000050 at address 0x100558e8 (thread 0019), starting debugger...
[restarted]
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x000000bd at address 0x100558e6 (thread 001a), starting debugger...
wine: Unhandled page fault on execute access to 0x83ec8b55 at address 0x83ec8b55 (thread 0019), starting debugger...
wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x100558e6 (thread 0019), starting debugger...
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UberL0rd
Minmatar
28th Day Industries
The Church.
|
Posted - 2008.09.09 10:29:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii
Originally by: Lira Reib
So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was.
Perhaps it's your system.
No it's not.
Since EVE Trinity, EVE Classic crashes out at random intervals with a pthread issue and EVE Premium locks with a VBO issue.
http://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14895
Although I reported on the bug that it only happened with the new computer, it's not entirely true as I recall the same issue with EVE Classic on the old computer as the Trinity upgrade happened a few weeks before it died.
---
I use Gentoo/Linux and Gentoo uses software I write |
TheRealBanana1
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 09:14:00 -
[33]
I'd like to point out, even though I don't personally use Cedega anymore, I at one time did and for a reason. Cedega isn't just wine with a price tag, it's a more precise version of it. When you pay for Cedega, you get the Cedega program (which has a nice gui for managing games/settings/etc), support from transgaming, and the ability to vote. The problem with wine (in regards to gamers) is that they don't work on getting one game working perfectly. The wine developers want general compatibility. Cedega on the other hand uses a voting system to hone in on what gamers want. Unfortunately this means WoW gets most of the votes  . But to dismiss Cedega as nothing more than a ripoff of wine is just idiotic. Anywho, the reason I stopped using cedega was because Counterstrike: Source wasn't getting the amount of attention I thought it needed, and come wine v0.96 wine actually had better support for my favorite game. So in regards to OP's remark, the reason CCP is giving them money is to step up development for Cedega's compatibility with EVE. They can't pay wine developers, who work for free, to work specifically on EVE (although hefty contributions are always welcome!). Development isn't a black and white deal, it takes time to work out. Eventually Cedega will have excellent support for EVE.
/rant?
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Khalith
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 15:03:00 -
[34]
With WINE having released a "stable" platform (WINE 1.0) that CCP could actually support, I'd love to see said support actually happen.
In my case, Cedega is not an option (Intel graphic card, Cedega just shits itself at first opportunity), and running Debian Lenny there's no License Agreement text under WINE(everything else works fine, yes I have the proper fonts in the proper places) so Eve happens to be the only reason I dual-boot.
I honestly don't (personally) know any linux user who has run Cedega in the past two or so years. WINE is far superior. Now that we have a "stable" WINE 1.0, lets see some support for it.
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D'Insane Shatner
Gallente
Shatner's Toupee
|
Posted - 2008.09.17 15:05:00 -
[35]
Originally by: TheRealBanana1
I'd like to point out, even though I don't personally use Cedega anymore, I at one time did and for a reason. Cedega isn't just wine with a price tag, it's a more precise version of it. When you pay for Cedega, you get the Cedega program (which has a nice gui for managing games/settings/etc), support from transgaming, and the ability to vote. The problem with wine (in regards to gamers) is that they don't work on getting one game working perfectly. The wine developers want general compatibility. Cedega on the other hand uses a voting system to hone in on what gamers want. Unfortunately this means WoW gets most of the votes . But to dismiss Cedega as nothing more than a ripoff of wine is just idiotic. Anywho, the reason I stopped using cedega was because Counterstrike: Source wasn't getting the amount of attention I thought it needed, and come wine v0.96 wine actually had better support for my favorite game. So in regards to OP's remark, the reason CCP is giving them money is to step up development for Cedega's compatibility with EVE. They can't pay wine developers, who work for free, to work specifically on EVE (although hefty contributions are always welcome!). Development isn't a black and white deal, it takes time to work out. Eventually Cedega will have excellent support for EVE.
/rant?
I'm sorry. I'm not buying.
Knowing what I know about Wine, linux, and Cedega- I cannot agree with you.
Cedega, at least in my experience, isn't a good user experience. In fact it's so bad I still dual boot for games.
That being said, better results could be had if CCP would have hired a couple of wine-smart devs to tweak existing wine releases for use with EVE. The codebase is already there, and your new devs could concentrate on one game: EVE.
Having seen wine/EVE performance go from totally comparable to Windows, to very sub-par, and then back to something in the middle- I'm totally convinced that if someone focused on getting EVE to run well under linux it could be done. And done well.
Under this model the result would be far more "precise" than Cedega.
I respect your opinion, but I can't see how it's valid given my experience with linux and project management background. CCP may have their reasons, which may be valid, and perhaps might even convince me they are right to handle it this way.
However, at face value: BLEH.
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http://www.shatnerology.com
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TheRealBanana1
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: D'Insane Shatner
Originally by: TheRealBanana1
I'd like to point out, even though I don't personally use Cedega anymore, I at one time did and for a reason. Cedega isn't just wine with a price tag, it's a more precise version of it. When you pay for Cedega, you get the Cedega program (which has a nice gui for managing games/settings/etc), support from transgaming, and the ability to vote. The problem with wine (in regards to gamers) is that they don't work on getting one game working perfectly. The wine developers want general compatibility. Cedega on the other hand uses a voting system to hone in on what gamers want. Unfortunately this means WoW gets most of the votes . But to dismiss Cedega as nothing more than a ripoff of wine is just idiotic. Anywho, the reason I stopped using cedega was because Counterstrike: Source wasn't getting the amount of attention I thought it needed, and come wine v0.96 wine actually had better support for my favorite game. So in regards to OP's remark, the reason CCP is giving them money is to step up development for Cedega's compatibility with EVE. They can't pay wine developers, who work for free, to work specifically on EVE (although hefty contributions are always welcome!). Development isn't a black and white deal, it takes time to work out. Eventually Cedega will have excellent support for EVE.
/rant?
I'm sorry. I'm not buying.
Knowing what I know about Wine, linux, and Cedega- I cannot agree with you.
Cedega, at least in my experience, isn't a good user experience. In fact it's so bad I still dual boot for games.
That being said, better results could be had if CCP would have hired a couple of wine-smart devs to tweak existing wine releases for use with EVE. The codebase is already there, and your new devs could concentrate on one game: EVE.
Having seen wine/EVE performance go from totally comparable to Windows, to very sub-par, and then back to something in the middle- I'm totally convinced that if someone focused on getting EVE to run well under linux it could be done. And done well.
Under this model the result would be far more "precise" than Cedega.
I respect your opinion, but I can't see how it's valid given my experience with linux and project management background. CCP may have their reasons, which may be valid, and perhaps might even convince me they are right to handle it this way.
However, at face value: BLEH.
I agree, Cedega isn't a good user experience, but I think it's all CCP has to work with. I can see their reason for giving Cedega money, and I can see what they were hoping to achieve, and why they didn't pump money into wine (which has better compatibility in most cases). My post wasn't a praise of Cedega, but more of a possible explanation of CCP's move. It's would be interesting to know what CCP hasn't compiled their code against the Wine libraries, as that would seem to be the better route. Hires out devs to make it possible to compile EVE with the wine library, then we would have the best compatibility in Linux.
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Talis Mahn
Gemini Sun
Violent-Tendencies
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Posted - 2008.09.25 21:29:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Talis Mahn on 25/09/2008 21:31:00
When I first switched to Linux full time on my desktop, I just could not get WINE to work for me. I could get EVE to run well under Cedega, but over time I just saw the lack of response to us EVE players. I'd watch the forums and watch as people would get angrier over time from the lack of response. Eventually the official EVE client came out and I switched to that after EVE stopped running in Cedega. For a time I was happy and willing to deal with original graphics (It kept me from having to dual boot to play EVE). Then one of the Cedega updates made playing EVE impossible (Nothing but black screen). It forced me to actually research WINE. A couple of minor tweaks and I got Premium graphics.
The problem I see with Transgaming is they are trying to make everything available, but their voting system makes them focus on the POPULAR games. EVE was getting not nearly enough votes for them to put much effort into it. The lack of communication after they broke the official client (at least for me) sent me to wine, and I rarely look back. I've also worked as a dev and All the anger and flat out *****ing I see makes it easy to see why anyone poking their head up with a post would be hesitant.
On the other hand I know that the DEVs are probably wading through all the posts. I just hope they are seeing the pattern I am. WINE has made EVE playable for Linux users. When all other options point to going back to Windows, I can always fall back onto WINE.
Maybe they can use the information they find in the LInux forums to beat Transgaming over the head with their wrapper.
I am not surrounded. I'm in a target rich environment. |
Antonia Frak
Republic University
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Posted - 2008.10.11 11:23:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Antonia Frak on 11/10/2008 11:24:00
Maybe we should stop sending linux specific bug reports to CCP/Transgaming and focus on the bugzilla at WineHQ. They have a superior product, and we pay CCP for a superior product. So please stop using our money on Transgaming.
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Ravow
Minmatar
N'Th'Rack Squadron
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.14 04:20:00 -
[39]
/Approuved
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Kallu Harve
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:06:00 -
[40]
I agree. Stop using transgaming, and move to wine.
I see there is a problem wine i totally open source (There is no one to blame, if wine isn't working). But better than cedega anyway.
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Lightmans
Caldari
Personal Vendetta
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Posted - 2008.10.16 09:14:00 -
[41]
yes its true and i will agree to the others...
pls change to open source wine and not transgaming...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i got now a perfect installation under linux debian 64 with speacial nvidia settings..
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BlackMatrix
Gallente
Pure Jazz
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Posted - 2008.10.16 21:01:00 -
[42]
To be honest I have always been anti Cedega and was running premium via wine until recently.
I downloaded the official linux client yesterday to find that there is very few bugs left. No crashes or graphics glitches which has always bugged me in the past.
Seems like cedega are doing something for their money.
http://blackmatrix.org.uk
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Seppin Latonei
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Posted - 2008.10.21 09:57:00 -
[43]
First off, the nuances of the GPL are tricky, but as I understand it, Transgaming does not have to have their code available for free: they can charge a "distribution fee". However, since it is a derivative work of a GPL codebase, other parties who have paid the "distribution fee" and have the product are allowed to distribute the product to anyone for any fee (including free).
Secondly, a number of people seem to be under the impression that CCP can't "buy a dev" on the wine project. While this is true in some sense, there is nothing stopping them from hiring a few employees to work on wine fixes in-house, which results in the same end.
Therefore it seems to me that CCP could either buy one subscription to Cedega, then modify and distribute it to their heart's content, or (even better) fork Wine 1.0 and maintain an Eve-specific version in-house. Either option seems to be better than paying Transgaming for the poor support they are currently providing. I, for one, could use a new job (HR at CCP, you have my email address... let me know when you want me to start).
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Ravow
Minmatar
N'Th'Rack Squadron
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.10.21 13:32:00 -
[44]
Transgaming forked Wine when he was on a MIT license (before 2002) that permit modification without distributing sources..
After that, Winehq changed the wine license to LGPL and now if someone modify wine, they have to give the full code with it. After the license change, Transgaming only improved her thing but the WineHQ side gain a lot of popularity, devel..
Transgaming on his side his sinking with his old modified pre-2002 wine version (They can't refork any wine code after that except if they give the wine parts code...) :D
Even Google paid wine devel to gain Picassa and Photoshop CS2 compatibility under wine, why not CCP??? (EVE-Premium is already compatible, just some small issue to fix)
Anyway, transgaming is to busy making love with EA Games and its probably why we don't have our Q1 2008 promised premium client client. Stopping paying for this shit and helping the wine project is the solution to have a good fully supported EVE.
PS : I vote with my wallet. If wine compatibility is broken in future update, I will cancel my five accounts.
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Valandril
Caldari
Exiled.
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.10.26 10:51:00 -
[45]
I don't understand that argument that you cannot throw deadline at wine devs because it's open source. Contact wine devs, get a deal with them (for money) and then you can throw deadlines at as you do with transgaming. Fact that results of they work will end in open source software is immaterial, dunno who started that "bandwagon" that you can't pay for development of opensource software (google example) but it's ridiculous.
I had so many problems with official "eve client" (it's not really client but crappy "emulation") that it is ridiculous, especialy as for pay product (i'm getting better support from wine community that do it for free, than from tg).
So you got my vote here, move TG money to winehq, make some deals with developpers and they will make eve "work" on time. |
Derek Medrana
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.10.26 16:33:00 -
[46]
The "primary" wine devs work for Codeweavers. IIRC CCP did approach codeweavers, but were turned down for whatever reason(s).
You cannot just "throw money" at winehq. Winehq isn't a company nor are the 'devs' working FOR winehq. The devs who aren't working directly for codeweavers are independent folks (like you n' me) who donate their time to making wine better.
CCP would need to HIRE a couple of devs to specifically work with wine to ensure that wine itself worked.
Without knowing the minds of the company, I'm only guessing here, but they tossed money at TG and entered into a contract. If TG aren't breaking their end of the deal, then CCP has its hands tied legally until time to renew/end said contract.
Regardless of all that, in the last two years wine has worked post patch most of the time, and has NEVER had any lengthy (read significant) time where eve was completely unplayable.
Seeing that the TG/CCP official product in the state that its in (read: not very good), I'd say wine has been better support for EVE regardless of "official sanction".
my 2 cents anyway.
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