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Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 07:53:00 - [1] Eve Online already plays in wine (even premium, which isn't supported) better than under cedega. In addition, cedega out right steals code from wine and then charges for it (most recently, MSI). CCP, please stop giving them money. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 07:53:00 - [2] Eve Online already plays in wine (even premium, which isn't supported) better than under cedega. In addition, cedega out right steals code from wine and then charges for it (most recently, MSI). CCP, please stop giving them money. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
brainball GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.03 09:27:00 - [3] nice allegations, got any proof?
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 09:38:00 - [4] Presumably you mean proof that they steal code and not proof that eve plays under wine. "On November 13, 2007's Development Status report, Transgaming explained that a number of modification have been made to Cedega's code to add Wine's implementation of the MSI installation system and to be able to incorporate more of Wine's codebase." Found here: Wikipedia Article Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 09:41:00 - [5] I haven't gone through the cedega cvs tree (you are welcome to compare and contrast). It's pretty ridiculous. Even if they release any modifications they add to the MSI code, they increase their subscriber base because they have the MSI code, which is open source. They are selling open source. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.03 10:48:00 - [6] I have to agree with the OP. Of course, I stopped using the Cedega client not long after release. I've tried it a few times since. But in my book it's not up to snuff. It would be better to have an in house team working on how to property config wine on the major desktop distributions (Ubuntu and whatever the runner up is) rather than pay Cedega to leverage open source code that CCP has direct access to anyway. But then again this all goes back to the decision to ditch Open GL in the early days. We wouldn't be having this conversation at all if that decision had been different given EVE's reliance on Python code. But sadly, Direct X makes development easier since game developers have a toolbox all setup for them. And Direct X isn't allowed to be used on OS platforms other that Windows. Folks who publish games on OGL (ID Software comes to mind) have to write a lot more code to get the same result. Microsoft knows this- which is why they took the route they did with Direct X and kept it Windows-only. Given the success of EVE online (It is exceptionally viable and long term) CCP should revisit cross-platform solutions and their strategy.
Pelf Matagraph	Posted - 2008.09.03 11:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Fabrezio I haven't gone through the cedega cvs tree (you are welcome to compare and contrast). It's pretty ridiculous. Even if they release any modifications they add to the MSI code, they increase their subscriber base because they have the MSI code, which is open source. They are selling open source. Well- ethically you may be correct- but legally? I kinda doubt they are in violation of the GPL. Although your point, which is excellent, has little to to with legalities. At face value the CCP arraignment with Cedega looks to me like a basic misunderstanding of the Open Source ecosystem and how to leverage it to your advantage. It is ironic, however, that in that contrast Cedega does seem to understand the factors involved. Cedega does become irrelevant once software publishers realize they can leverage the wine code without the middleman- just hire the programmers and make the product work. Also throw some money at the wine team. It's going to be cheaper than a contract with Cedega (which is an assumption on my part). As an aside- python code just FLIES running on *nix variants like Linux and OSX. So I'm still game for a native client (which will never happen). -- I don't post on my main. The reason is simple- to remain obscure. EVE as a society is a rough place, and I like being anonymous. I'm not afraid. I'm just prudent.
Cloricus Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.03 11:24:00 - [8] Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse? Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother? Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money. The only good Goon is a dead Goon.
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Cloricus Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse? Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother? Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money. Yes, but presumably CCP payed or is paying Transgaming for Cedega support, which as you mentioned, noone is using anyways. So why not dump them? Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.03 12:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Fabrezio Originally by: Cloricus Hey brainball what's it like to back the wrong horse? Also how often do we have to have this thread. CCP did not want to deal with the open structure of the Wine project which made Transgaming the best choice at the time. These days they would be better off switching to Crossover ... but as Crossover Games now supports EVE Online why should they bother? Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. So the reality is any one who isn't an idiot is already using Crossover or Wine and not wasting their money. Yes, but presumably CCP payed or is paying Transgaming for Cedega support, which as you mentioned, noone is using anyways. So why not dump them? Agreed- there's too much support out there already for on-linux gaming for CCP to be paying someone to be maintaining a "client". I can't help but think a couple of people hired into CCP could do a better job working with Wine code internally.
Postlatta Mouseanon Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.09.03 14:46:00 - [11] Just as an aside, to make a point, I'm testing three configs: Official Client, Crossover, and Wine. I'll post hardware specs and the results in a day or two.
Cloricus Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.03 15:27:00 - [12] Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source. Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years. The biggest difference is that Codeweavers is giving back to the community. Though that is a political point and out side the scope of this thread. Postlatta Mouseanon, it is a very silly idea to test out performance right after a patch. Give it a week or two so that the respective releases can come out with any fixes required. Also the results will not have changed; Wine will have the best rendering, fps, performance, and usability. Crossover will be lagging slightly behind Wine. Cedega is some way off in the distance. The only good Goon is a dead Goon.
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.03 18:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Cloricus Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source. Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years. The biggest difference is that Codeweavers is giving back to the community. Though that is a political point and out side the scope of this thread. Postlatta Mouseanon, it is a very silly idea to test out performance right after a patch. Give it a week or two so that the respective releases can come out with any fixes required. Also the results will not have changed; Wine will have the best rendering, fps, performance, and usability. Crossover will be lagging slightly behind Wine. Cedega is some way off in the distance. As pointed out above, its not a legal issue, its an ethical one. In addition, GIVEMEMONEY, would have to be entirely publically available and if you improved it in anyway, you would have to release that as well. Cedega releases exactly zero and continually steals from Wine and then charges for it (which noone here is using). So perhaps just in the interest of pure capitalism, CCP could save the money and give themselves a raise. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Gilbert T Gallente Entropians on Vacation	Posted - 2008.09.03 20:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Cloricus Fabrezio, I don't think you 'get' Open Source. Selling open source software is expressly allowed and encouraged under the GPL v2 and v3. In fact right now I could download WINE, change its name to GIVEMEMONEY and sell it to you for $400 and it would be perfectly legal as long as I followed the requirements of the GPL. In fact, Codeweavers are doing this very thing and have been for years. (snip) Thanks, Cloricus - my thoughts exactly.
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.04 00:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Cloricus Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. Mark me up as one Linux user (Ubuntu 7.10 - havent bothered to upgrade to 8.04), using the default Cedega Client AND now using Eve voice (since I discovered that the Ubuntu Sound Control panel will answays fail - test using Sound Recorder only!) And NOT paying any money for it. When did you have to pay to use Cedega? The default client doesnt require you to pay. Regards, Jason Brisbane
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.04 04:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Darkeen Edited by: Darkeen on 04/09/2008 00:31:06 Edited by: Darkeen on 04/09/2008 00:28:33 Originally by: Cloricus Out of the hundred to two hundred EVE players I know who use Linux not a single one of them uses Cedega or has ever paid for it. Mark me up as one Linux user (Ubuntu 7.10 - havent bothered to upgrade to 8.04), using the default Cedega Client AND now using Eve voice (since I discovered that the Ubuntu Sound Control panel will answays fail - test using Sound Recorder only!) And NOT paying any money for it. When did you have to pay to use Cedega? The default client doesnt require you to pay. To what are you reffering? I'm interested to know? (NO sarcam mode) CCP is paying the money (or payed money), scroll up. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.09.04 12:30:00 - [17] Add me up as one who has been using the official client on three different occasions, gotten ***ed with it and went back to Wine. In my humblest opinion, it's crap, promises were broken, and it's morally questionable. I say screw it :/ But, as said before, CCP doesn't have much alternative. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.*
Cloricus Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.05 09:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Ancy Denaries CCP doesn't have much alternative. This is entirely untrue. http://www.codeweavers.com/ The only good Goon is a dead Goon.
Ravow Minmatar Explora Empire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.09.05 13:26:00 - [19] Or www.winehq.org :p This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......). CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :) Ravow
brainball GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.05 13:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Cloricus Originally by: Ancy Denaries CCP doesn't have much alternative. This is entirely untrue. http://www.codeweavers.com/ From what I heard was that CCP approached codeweavers when they were starting up the mac/linux client and that codeweavers turned them down. and on the point of backing the wrong horse, I ain't backing no horses. I don't really fancy horses, I am more interesting in women.
Talis Mahn Gemini Sun Violent-Tendencies	Posted - 2008.09.06 10:11:00 - [21] I was using the Cedega wrapped client until one of Transgaming's patches seemed to break EVE for me. It forced me to switch to WINE. It took a little tweaking in the client for the Premium Graphics to run for me. I haven't gone back. I might try the official client again when it supports premium, but that will only last until Transgaming breaks it for me again. I am not surrounded. I'm in a target rich environment.
Lira Reib	Posted - 2008.09.06 10:39:00 - [22] Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15 Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis. If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things. Now, hiring a wine dev to support eve - now that's an idea I would be enthusiastic about.
Odhinn Vinlandii Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.09.06 17:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Lira Reib Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15 Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis. If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things. Gentoo, Wine, EVE. Works flawless for me, straight away, no ****ing around with it at all. (unlike the official version which took days to get to crash at splash screen) Only problem at first was that user portraits were half missing, it has corrected itself. I am running stable amd64 2008.0 release with an GF8800GT. Dual 1024x768 clients both average 40FPS even while compiling gcc. localhost ~ # uname -a Linux localhost 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 #5 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 5 16:48:10 EDT 2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
Lira Reib	Posted - 2008.09.07 05:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Odhinn Vinlandii Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 06/09/2008 17:21:03 Originally by: Lira Reib Edited by: Lira Reib on 06/09/2008 10:40:15 Using wine isn't an option for me. It crashes and the frame rate drops to near-zero, both on a regular basis. If it were stable (and engine and beam effects worked right) I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that new versions of wine can break things. Gentoo amd64 2008.0 stable nvidia-drivers 173.14.09 Wine 1.1.0 (With DirectX native installed, see link below) EVE Premium Graphics. Works flawless for me, straight away, no ****ing around with it at all. (unlike the official version which took days to get to crash at splash screen) Only problem at first was that user portraits were half missing, it has corrected itself. Dual 1024x768 clients both average 40FPS even while compiling gcc. localhost ~ # uname -a Linux localhost 2.6.25-gentoo-r7 #5 SMP PREEMPT Fri Sep 5 16:48:10 EDT 2008 x86_64 Intel(R) Xeon(TM) CPU 3.00GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux Link to install DirectX into Wine http://www.wine-reviews.net/microsoft/directx-90c-march-2008-redistributable-on-linux-with-wine.html I'll give DX a try, and I see there's a wine update in their repos. I don't have real high hopes, but it's not like I can stop trying.
farfrael Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2008.09.07 15:28:00 - [25] my .2c The CCP official client works for me perfectly, without any texture problems or crashes etc out of the box It does not cover premium graphics, that's true and it's a real PITA. OTOH, i prefer performance over pretty graphics The last time I looked on the wine HQ database entry for Eve, it is full of "this game works great if you spend 3 hours fidgeting around with insane regedit configs and options and then it still crashes and has blocky textures and god knows what else" so either the db entry isn't up to date or somebody needs to check their definition of "it runs perfectly". As for whether CCP made the wrong choice, probably IMHO. Ideally they should have hired some of the wine project guys to work on improving the code. However, if the choice is between no official support or official support with cedega, i will take the official support thank you If people are really so mad about CCP supporting cedega, why don't you contribute to wine or crossover? you are not paying CCP anything to run eve and you are paying the same price as the windows users, why don't you pay $5 a month to wine and put your money where your mouth is?
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.09.07 16:21:00 - [26] Originally by: farfrael my .2c The last time I looked on the wine HQ database entry for Eve, it is full of "this game works great if you spend 3 hours fidgeting around with insane regedit configs and options and then it still crashes and has blocky textures and god knows what else" so either the db entry isn't up to date or somebody needs to check their definition of "it runs perfectly". As for whether CCP made the wrong choice, probably IMHO. Ideally they should have hired some of the wine project guys to work on improving the code. However, if the choice is between no official support or official support with cedega, i will take the official support thank you I had already played Eve for 1.5 - 2 years before the "official" client came out. I tried the "official" (cedega-wrapped) client when it came out. It had several issues that the wine version did not have: a) copy/paste between EVE and other apps b) can't type after alt-tab to other app (fixable by pressing ctrl-alt-shift - but still annoying and wine doesn't have that problem) c) probably a couple others I forgot EVE on wine works rock-stable. If anybody had trouble getting wine running or crashes best bet is that they have an ATI card. ATI cards have a long-standing tradition of being troublesome on Linux (now getting better with newer drivers AFAIK). Any complex fiddling with settings or whatever to get wine to run is years old (assuming NVidia card - which is a should have for gaming on Linux). You get wine 1.x, plus mstcorefonts from repository, wait a few seconds to install, install EVE (or copy old installation) and you're set. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOOSER EVE TV- Bring it back!
Lira Reib	Posted - 2008.09.08 03:19:00 - [27] Installed DX. Frame rate is a little better and engine graphics work right. Had a frame rate drop, but only to 25, which is only a little worse than with the official client. Then it crashed. So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was.
Odhinn Vinlandii Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.09.08 08:50:00 - [28] Edited by: Odhinn Vinlandii on 08/09/2008 08:50:17 Originally by: Lira Reib Installed DX. Frame rate is a little better and engine graphics work right. Had a frame rate drop, but only to 25, which is only a little worse than with the official client. Then it crashed. So, wine still isn't an option. Wish it was. Perhaps it's your system.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Amarr Sisterhood of Galactic Sirens	Posted - 2008.09.08 10:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Ravow Or www.winehq.org :p This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......). CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :) Ravow Well, CCP already stated that they didn't want to get involved with the WINE project since it's open source and not a real company they can demand stuff from. They needed a commercial company they could throw deadlines and stuff at (not that Transgaming has managed to keep a single deadline so far though). So yeah, CodeWeavers perhaps, but rumour has it that they turned down CCP. So, again, CCP doesn't have a real alternative. You can't put demands and deadlines on an opensource community. Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change.
Fabrezio Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.08 12:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Ancy Denaries Originally by: Ravow Or www.winehq.org :p This way is better, this will let experimented user the choice to use there optimised version (ie : -march=core2.......). CCP just need to make how-to install for noob on major distrib. If they want absoluly pay someone for doing the job, they can pay me and I will make these howto for them :) Ravow Well, CCP already stated that they didn't want to get involved with the WINE project since it's open source and not a real company they can demand stuff from. They needed a commercial company they could throw deadlines and stuff at (not that Transgaming has managed to keep a single deadline so far though). So yeah, CodeWeavers perhaps, but rumour has it that they turned down CCP. So, again, CCP doesn't have a real alternative. You can't put demands and deadlines on an opensource community. You realize google is backing wine, yes? CCP wouldn't be the first company to use an open source project (which isn't a company) as a solution, and consequently, make the open source product better. Please do not remove moderator edits from your signature. It has been removed because it doesn't reflect your ingame persona. If you have comments or questions please email us at [email protected]. Thanks, Hango

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