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DJ FunkyBacon
Eve Radio Corporation Eve Radio Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:13:00 -
[1]
We tried an experiment today. 32 Pilots showed up in a 0.5 system with the promise of 1 billion isk to anyone who could get the killing blow on an Occator.
Concordokken
The Occator lived, the 32 man fleet died. 31 seconds elapsed from first aggression to last pop. Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
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Waxau
Infusion.
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:16:00 -
[2]
You failed because i didnt take part. Learn from your mistake. Everyone.
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dischordia
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:18:00 -
[3]
i was flying the occ and it was like OHHHH Pritty light show
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Sir Bladder
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sir Bladder on 04/09/2008 22:21:51 due to lag, from my view, i was jammed by concord about half a second before my guns fired, concord are incredibly powerful now, and discordias tank needs a nerf :P
PS:fail alt is fail >_<
this was gotk at the "event" AKA concord donut buffet
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LilMega PAL
Caldari VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.04 22:21:00 -
[5]
If you want some more piccies from the event,go to eve-files and search for E-R event . You should see the pwetty lights ^-^ LMP iz in tha criiib! Get ur walk on homies![/b]
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Katie Door
the united
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Posted - 2008.09.04 23:32:00 -
[6]
Bit off topic, but i love the new sec status hits u now get, OMW to true -10 sec status
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Saint Lazarus
Spiorad ag fanaiocht
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Posted - 2008.09.05 01:17:00 -
[7]
daaaayum that kinda sucks, expected suicide ganks to be harder not next to impossible -----------------
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Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy
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Posted - 2008.09.05 01:19:00 -
[8]
So what's the verdict then? Transpos are now 99%+ safe in High Sec?
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Apoctasy
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.09.05 02:11:00 -
[9]
This belongs in general discussion for everyone else to see.
If a .5 system that CCP claimed would be a lot less concordokkened than 1.0 is next to impossible to gank in, then it is certain.
Highsec is officially completely 100% safe.
Again, post this in general for more feedback. ----
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Delwoc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 02:46:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Delwoc on 05/09/2008 02:49:12
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Amberly Coteaz
Amarr The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:03:00 -
[11]
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon We tried an experiment today. 32 Pilots showed up in a 0.5 system with the promise of 1 billion isk to anyone who could get the killing blow on an Occator.
Concordokken
The Occator lived, the 32 man fleet died. 31 seconds elapsed from first aggression to last pop. Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
Wait what were the 32 pilots flying, if they were in cruisers or bigger then that's really overnerfed
If you find yourself in a fair fight, something went wrong
Originally by: Patch86 OK people, Amberly Coteaz has won life for the time being. Everyone go home and wait for the round reset.
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Vaden Khale
Amarr the united
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Katie Door Bit off topic, but i love the new sec status hits u now get, OMW to true -10 sec status
So does that make you a sec status ***** then?
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Gotk
Caldari Federation of Builders Inc The Five
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Posted - 2008.09.05 06:56:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Amberly Coteaz
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon We tried an experiment today. 32 Pilots showed up in a 0.5 system with the promise of 1 billion isk to anyone who could get the killing blow on an Occator.
Concordokken
The Occator lived, the 32 man fleet died. 31 seconds elapsed from first aggression to last pop. Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
Wait what were the 32 pilots flying, if they were in cruisers or bigger then that's really overnerfed
we had something like 5 BS bunch of battlecruisers with some cruisers and a handful of frigates, no idea on exact numbers to be honest
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.05 07:24:00 -
[14]
So did these 31 pilots all fire at once or did they come in piecemeal and start firing even when CONCORD were already on-grid?
I'm having a hard time understanding how any ship could withstand a collective volley of guns & missiles from 31 ships. Did everyone overload their guns?
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Hurrum Hurrum
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.05 08:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Hurrum Hurrum on 05/09/2008 08:23:31
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
32 Ships fired at an Occator for 10 seconds and couldn't kill it.
Sounds like your experiment wasn't an experiment at all. You don't even tell us what the ship types were or how they attempted the gank.
Perhaps I should assemble 100 noob ships, perform the same experiment and post my findings.
fail.
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CyberRaver
Mortal dream
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:20:00 -
[16]
Rather then call fail, I was there in my ishkur and there was 5 bs, about 15 cruisers and battlecruisers with frigs too, 2 were torp ravens. We had 1 BS spawn for every person and the support, Son as i fired i was almost instapopped. There is literaly 10 seconds before you die
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soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:30:00 -
[17]
ok, you only had 5 battleships, uhhh, most suicide ganks ive seen use something like a torpedo raven and there are normally a ton of them, at least 20-ish
lets assume each pilot pumps out 1000dps (although im almost certain a gank torp raven can do more)
1000*20 = 20,000 dps
even with a transport ship you should be able to kill that thing
or perhaps this will be the evolution of two stage suicide ganks?
10 gank ships on one side of a gate, 10 on the other, the first 10 ships get it down to armor by using its shields weakness (lets say the first stage uses all EM missiles to get its shields down quick)
then he jumps through **phew, im safe says the transport pilot*** then he emerges in next system with 10 MORE battleships on the other side, this time 10 battleships with explosive ammo to work on his armor and structure
idk, i think it would work, i would try it myself, but my corp cant organize 10 gank battleships, nor afford it
someone else should try it though, serisoulsy, now all you need to gank someone is a little bit more organization other than "hey all, get to xxx gate in xxx system NOW"
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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MentaFox
The Chaotic Order Void.
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:30:00 -
[18]
Edited by: MentaFox on 05/09/2008 13:31:02
Originally by: CyberRaver Rather then call fail, I was there in my ishkur and there was 5 bs, about 15 cruisers and battlecruisers with frigs too, 2 were torp ravens. We had 1 BS spawn for every person and the support, Son as i fired i was almost instapopped. There is literaly 10 seconds before you die
Odd, since the ishkur is well known for its extremely capable tanking-abilities.. and 1 more thing. Do you know what really gets on my nerves? When you cant tell a sig from a post. |
CyberRaver
Mortal dream
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:35:00 -
[19]
I was even running a tank, but i was killed in 2 volleys or so was very fast. Not to mention i was totally drained of cap after firing. Pucks smartbombing tempest was funny, went from -3 to -8 in 1 minute, he popped and podded half the crew after the initial shootin You will get 1 volley off before being target jamed webbed scrammed and neuted to death
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DJ FunkyBacon
Eve Radio Corporation Eve Radio Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.05 13:51:00 -
[20]
The previous counts were accurate with 5 BS, 15 or so BCs/Cruisers and the rest frigs.
The most detailed account I got was from P'uck. He had 8 Smarties fitted on his tempest. According to him he was locked down seconds after he activated, but was able to cap inject once for a second activation before the Concord BS got him. No one else got a second volley.
We informed everyone who came of the importance of everyone firing off at once to take the most advantage of the concord delay, but it didn't seem to matter if there were already Concord ships, each act of aggression created a new spawn specifically for the aggressor.
As you can see in the SS above, the BSs that you see webbed down were the last to get their shots off. There are only 2 EW beams hitting each of them.
The occator did get heavily down into armor, however he was reporting the torps hitting him doing ~140 damage. (He had a tank fitted). You would have to ask him how much armor he had but I'm fairly sure it was over 5k.
I have no doubt that if all 32 ships were torp ravens they would have gotten him... they might have scored with only 15. A torp raven seems like your best option for suicide ganking now since even in a 0.5 it looks like you can only plan on your alpha getting off. You won't get a second shot. Drones are disabled the moment you're locked down.
I hope that helps with the information that was lacking in the original posting.
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dischordia
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Posted - 2008.09.05 16:14:00 -
[21]
the TS has 4.7k armor ... was like its gonna go its gonna ......... oh wait its ok im here
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Vengal Seyhan
Sten Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:09:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon
A torp raven seems like your best option for suicide ganking now since even in a 0.5 it looks like you can only plan on your alpha getting off. You won't get a second shot. Drones are disabled the moment you're locked down.
I had to chuckle when I read that. Wait, aren't Minmatar the kings of extreme alpha?
Har har
PS - Sucks to be me, a Domi pilot. Lucky I'm a carebear.
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BiggestT
Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon We tried an experiment today. 32 Pilots showed up in a 0.5 system with the promise of 1 billion isk to anyone who could get the killing blow on an Occator.
Concordokken
The Occator lived, the 32 man fleet died. 31 seconds elapsed from first aggression to last pop. Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
lets see them all fit smartbombs and watch ur occator "survive"
Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Remove m for manditory in mwd! |
soldieroffortune 258
Gallente Trinity Council
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon We tried an experiment today. 32 Pilots showed up in a 0.5 system with the promise of 1 billion isk to anyone who could get the killing blow on an Occator.
Concordokken
The Occator lived, the 32 man fleet died. 31 seconds elapsed from first aggression to last pop. Pilots reported about 10 seconds from aggression to lockdown.
lets see them all fit smartbombs and watch ur occator "survive"
eh, maybe if you can get more DPS out of smartbombs, then ok, but remember, the patch notes say its practically insta neuted, so when concord shows up your out of cap which smartbombs are cap hungry
did anyone read my first post in this thread? lol
Originally by: soldieroffortune 258
"Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer"
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2008.09.05 17:44:00 -
[25]
I think people want to have a vid, well at least I want.
Black Hand.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.06 00:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/09/2008 00:26:32 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/09/2008 00:25:54 Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/09/2008 00:24:44 Well its not suprising a ill organised bunch failed, as contrary to popular belief it takes a degree of skill to succsfully ganke.
As someone has said, the torp raven is the most effective suicide ganker and has been for some time.
It is however worrying that 5 bs and 15 bc couldnt pop a single occator, though I suspect you didnt module scan and fire best damage types etc.
Not firing at the same time does have an effect, as if (in order)
BS 1 fires 10 seconds pass CONCORD SPAWN 1 Conrcord kill BS1 BS 2 fires CONCORD SPAWN 1 INSTANTLY TAKE OUT BS2 10 seconds pass CONCORD SPAWN 2
Its vital you begin shooting at the same time.
IE there is no warp in time dealy, so BS2 is a one hit wonder. And after the first two have fired early - you now have 2 concord spawns on the gate ready to do over BS3 and BS4 with no warp in time.
But yeah, that said CONCORD are a bunch of shits for doing what they did. In typical CONCORD fasihion they have cracked a nut with a gian nerfhammer, and CONCORD have more planned with the removal of insurance.
I would expect to easily pop the target with 5 torp battleships and a pro suicide squad.
And no - disco ships are not as good as torp ravens.
Nice experiment though was interesting read.
SKUNK
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.06 00:34:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 06/09/2008 00:39:40 For Future gankers the optimal fit is
RAVEN: 6x Arbalest Siege 2x Medium neutralizers 5x BCU II 1x 100mn Afterburner 1x Warp Disruptor 1 1x X5 Stasis Web 1x Sensor Booster 2x Target Painter
30 of each damage tpe torp
Character will need the 1% power grid implant and engineering 4
CCP instituted a ARE YOU REALLY SURE pop up (which used to be able to be turned off but they made mandatory to covertly hinder gankers) window, where you have a yes or no option.
The YES should be used to synchronize firing, coms is a must.
I did gain some satisfaction out of taking the CCP pop up nerf and shoving it up the targets ass as it acutaly assists synchronized firing.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.06 01:10:00 -
[28]
I agree with Le Skunk, you used a random group of people who don't know what they are doing and attacked a tanked transport ship.
Suicide ganking is achieved by very skilled pilots using full gank ships and overheat to kill zero tanked and hopefully expanded cargohold fitted haulers.
An occator with a full rack of Expanded cargo IIs will have under 20k effective HP. That is ~70 dps for 30 ships if you get about 10 seconds before concord. Occator has EM/explosive holes so I would use gank with hurricanes/ruptures using hail and overload. About 750 DPS/cane and 500DPS/rupture and you can most likely kill the target using 4 ruptures and 1 hurricane.
Vs a tanked occator? God no, you just do not do that. Suicide ganking = killing idiots, not smart people that fit their ships properly. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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DJ FunkyBacon
Eve Radio Corporation Eve Radio Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.06 06:51:00 -
[29]
Skunk I'm with you on everything except the concord response bit. It used to be that if there was already a spawn of Concord you'd get insta shot, but we had 32 pilots in this gank and 32 concord spawns. Given the disorganization of the whole affair I can't say for certain, but it *seemed* like each ship had the same amount of time to fire regardless of when they shot. The theory seems to be held also due to the SS in the OP where you can see each of the BSs in the screen are only being tackled by 2 ships each, even though they were the last to shoot.
Also we noticed that concord ships actually warp in now, they don't just pop out of nowhere anymore.
As to some of the detractors about the skill of the pilots involved, you're right, it was a rag tag bunch, not very well coordinated and had the same bunch been on TS and synchronized, they might have had a better shot... but as the last person pointed out, the occator was also tanked as much as possible, he wasn't stacking expanders.
I suspect his "effective" HP was well above 20k. Some of his resistances were up over the 80% mark... we thought for sure he would go down with people getting 2-3 volleys each, but no one except the disco ship got more than 1 volley in. |
Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.06 10:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon Skunk I'm with you on everything except the concord response bit. It used to be that if there was already a spawn of Concord you'd get insta shot, but we had 32 pilots in this gank and 32 concord spawns. Given the disorganization of the whole affair I can't say for certain, but it *seemed* like each ship had the same amount of time to fire regardless of when they shot. The theory seems to be held also due to the SS in the OP where you can see each of the BSs in the screen are only being tackled by 2 ships each, even though they were the last to shoot.
Also we noticed that concord ships actually warp in now, they don't just pop out of nowhere anymore.
As to some of the detractors about the skill of the pilots involved, you're right, it was a rag tag bunch, not very well coordinated and had the same bunch been on TS and synchronized, they might have had a better shot... but as the last person pointed out, the occator was also tanked as much as possible, he wasn't stacking expanders.
I suspect his "effective" HP was well above 20k. Some of his resistances were up over the 80% mark... we thought for sure he would go down with people getting 2-3 volleys each, but no one except the disco ship got more than 1 volley in.
Well even if everyone gets 10 secs to shoot regardless of when they fired, if he was tanking fitted and you attacked piecemeal your dps was probably not enough to kill him anyway, especially if he was moving.
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Rajere
No Trademark Obsidian Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.06 12:10:00 -
[31]
disinformation mode /on
yes, you are 99% safe in 0.5 and above now. Yes the torp raven is the optimal suicide gank ship. Yes, that fit posted for it is what you should use. With no insurance payout, you will be 100% safe in 0.5 and above because the cost per ship/fittings and # of ravens needed make it far too prohibitive to be profitable.
disinformation mode /off NOTR How to Fail at Eve
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Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.06 12:14:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Rajere disinformation mode /on
yes, you are 99% safe in 0.5 and above now. Yes the torp raven is the optimal suicide gank ship. Yes, that fit posted for it is what you should use. With no insurance payout, you will be 100% safe in 0.5 and above because the cost per ship/fittings and # of ravens needed make it far too prohibitive to be profitable.
disinformation mode /off
Also, officer fitted cnrs/golems will be impossible to kill, so everyone should start flying them. kthnxbye
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.06 21:50:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rajere disinformation mode /on
yes, you are 99% safe in 0.5 and above now. Yes the torp raven is the optimal suicide gank ship. Yes, that fit posted for it is what you should use. With no insurance payout, you will be 100% safe in 0.5 and above because the cost per ship/fittings and # of ravens needed make it far too prohibitive to be profitable.
disinformation mode /off
What the hell does that mean
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
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SyGanomo
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Posted - 2008.09.07 00:50:00 -
[34]
Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 00:51:42
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
the ARBALEST launchers for one amigo, although they are pretty f'n cheap atm.
Loot prices have really shit teh bed. YOu can kill a nice fit BS and make like 5-15M profit, shit aint right.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.07 00:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 00:51:42
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
the ARBALEST launchers for one amigo, although they are pretty f'n cheap atm.
Loot prices have really shit teh bed. YOu can kill a nice fit BS and make like 5-15M profit, shit aint right.
Sorry you dont know what your talking about.
Arbalest sieges retail for around 300k ish (I dont quite understand why you pick on them, instead of the T2 bcus in the bottom slots which cost 1 mill a pop but there we go)
The difference from using arbalests and standards is the increased possibility you will get a 2nd and thrid volley off. So you spend an extra 1.5 mill on your raven and possibly do 33% exta damage.
So anyone else want to criticize the setup? Step right up.
SKUNK
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Holy Lowlander
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2008.09.07 08:14:00 -
[36]
pfff concord is stupid .. they kill 32 ships to protect 1 ...
And jetcanning donuts seem to give you some extra time...
Quote: woot I wants a toy arbitrator !!! :O
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SyGanomo
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Posted - 2008.09.07 14:06:00 -
[37]
Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 14:11:38
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 07/09/2008 00:58:15
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 00:51:42
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
the ARBALEST launchers for one amigo, although they are pretty f'n cheap atm.
Loot prices have really shit teh bed. YOu can kill a nice fit BS and make like 5-15M profit, shit aint right.
Sorry you dont know what your talking about.
Arbalest sieges retail for around 300k ish (I dont quite understand why you pick on them, instead of the T2 bcus in the bottom slots which cost 1 mill a pop but there we go)
The difference from using arbalests and standards is the increased possibility you will get a 2nd and thrid volley off.
dumbass can you read? I recognized that the best named launchers are now priced cheap and *****ed about it from the perspective of looting wrecks. Congrats you have the uber suicide gank raven fit? why so insecure.
In addition it looks like the point now is that even if you pimp your raven, you will NOT be getting a 2nd and certainly not a 3rd volley off, but I await the results of YOUR testing.
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Malcanis
RuffRyders Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.07 14:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 14:11:38
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 07/09/2008 00:58:15
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 00:51:42
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
the ARBALEST launchers for one amigo, although they are pretty f'n cheap atm.
Loot prices have really shit teh bed. YOu can kill a nice fit BS and make like 5-15M profit, shit aint right.
Sorry you dont know what your talking about.
Arbalest sieges retail for around 300k ish (I dont quite understand why you pick on them, instead of the T2 bcus in the bottom slots which cost 1 mill a pop but there we go)
The difference from using arbalests and standards is the increased possibility you will get a 2nd and thrid volley off.
dumbass can you read? I recognized that the best named launchers are now priced cheap and *****ed about it from the perspective of looting wrecks. Congrats you have the uber suicide gank raven fit? why so insecure.
In addition it looks like the point now is that even if you pimp your raven, you will NOT be getting a 2nd and certainly not a 3rd volley off, but I await the results of YOUR testing.
Hmm EFT shows that "All Level 5" guy getting a 6.5s RoF with Arbies and 4 BCS II. If 10 seconds is the allotted time, then I'd say that 2 volleys are eminently achievable.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.07 15:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 14:11:38
Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 07/09/2008 00:58:15
Originally by: SyGanomo Edited by: SyGanomo on 07/09/2008 00:51:42
Originally by: Le Skunk
If you think the fit posted is non optimal for a suicide ganker I should like to hear your opinions on what is.
SKUNK
the ARBALEST launchers for one amigo, although they are pretty f'n cheap atm.
Loot prices have really shit teh bed. YOu can kill a nice fit BS and make like 5-15M profit, shit aint right.
Sorry you dont know what your talking about.
Arbalest sieges retail for around 300k ish (I dont quite understand why you pick on them, instead of the T2 bcus in the bottom slots which cost 1 mill a pop but there we go)
The difference from using arbalests and standards is the increased possibility you will get a 2nd and thrid volley off.
dumbass can you read? I recognized that the best named launchers are now priced cheap and *****ed about it from the perspective of looting wrecks. Congrats you have the uber suicide gank raven fit? why so insecure.
In addition it looks like the point now is that even if you pimp your raven, you will NOT be getting a 2nd and certainly not a 3rd volley off, but I await the results of YOUR testing.
Hmm EFT shows that "All Level 5" guy getting a 6.5s RoF with Arbies and 4 BCS II. If 10 seconds is the allotted time, then I'd say that 2 volleys are eminently achievable.
this is true, but then t1 launchers and 4 t1 bcus also gets of 2 volleys inside 10 sces, so why bother? less margin for error sure but still.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.07 15:34:00 -
[40]
Originally by: SyGanomo
dumbass can you read? I recognized that the best named launchers are now priced cheap and *****ed about it from the perspective of looting wrecks. Congrats you have the uber suicide gank raven fit? why so insecure.
In addition it looks like the point now is that even if you pimp your raven, you will NOT be getting a 2nd and certainly not a 3rd volley off, but I await the results of YOUR testing.
I asked what was wrong with my raven fit? You replied
"THE ARBALESTS FOR ONE"
Which i then proved wrong.
Originally by: Ishamel 1
this is true, but then t1 launchers and 4 t1 bcus also gets of 2 volleys inside 10 sces, so why bother? less margin for error sure but still.
Basicaly its all about weighing up the costs with the chance of doing 33 - 50% more damage.
To Cover Your Points
1) In regards to the t2 bcus, they do 10 % missile damage bonus as opposed to 7. So they are needed as a matter of course purely on this reason alone.
They also give a 10.5% increase in ROF (as opposed to a 7.5%)
2) Costs for the 6 arbys over 6 t1s is 1.5 million isk.
Considering that some of the targets you would have been shooting at may be worth 3 bill, the cost is utterly negligible. And combined with the t2bcus, can get you 33% to 50% more damage (assuming 3rd salvo or 2nd salvo sneaking out). All for 1.5 million isk.
Well my own testing showed a 9 second response time in a 0.7. I am unaware what it is in a 0.5, but i would suspect it is higher. Assuming it is 12-13 seconds, then your third volley is RIGHT ON THE LINE in terms of whether you get it off or not.
When doing a gang gank, factors combine, lag, slow pilots, target ranges, etc to mean that every seconds counts, and practice shows the 1.5 million to be well worth it.
Finaly, a point people ignore
ROF does not equal MISSILE HITTING TARGET.
1)The missile has to travel to the target to achieve damage. 2)The tareget is usualy not at zero km 3)Concord shoot down missiles mid ait when they arrive.
So getting the missiles in the air faster is not only about getting the second or third volley in. If at range, a slow second launch can see your sieges getting shot down right as they were about to hit the target - a second quicker launch would have seen them hit.
SKUNK
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Ishamel 1
Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2008.09.07 15:40:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Ishamel 1
this is true, but then t1 launchers and 4 t1 bcus also gets of 2 volleys inside 10 sces, so why bother? less margin for error sure but still.
Basicaly its all about weighing up the costs with the chance of doing 33 - 50% more damage.
To Cover Your Points
1) In regards to the t2 bcus, they do 10 % missile damage bonus as opposed to 7. So they are needed as a matter of course purely on this reason alone.
They also give a 10.5% increase in ROF (as opposed to a 7.5%)
2) Costs for the 6 arbys over 6 t1s is 1.5 million isk.
Considering that some of the targets you would have been shooting at may be worth 3 bill, the cost is utterly negligible. And combined with the t2bcus, can get you 33% to 50% more damage (assuming 3rd salvo or 2nd salvo sneaking out). All for 1.5 million isk.
Well my own testing showed a 9 second response time in a 0.7. I am unaware what it is in a 0.5, but i would suspect it is higher. Assuming it is 12-13 seconds, then your third volley is RIGHT ON THE LINE in terms of whether you get it off or not.
When doing a gang gank, factors combine, lag, slow pilots, target ranges, etc to mean that every seconds counts, and practice shows the 1.5 million to be well worth it.
Finaly, a point people ignore
ROF does not equal MISSILE HITTING TARGET.
1)The missile has to travel to the target to achieve damage. 2)The tareget is usualy not at zero km 3)Concord shoot down missiles mid ait when they arrive.
So getting the missiles in the air faster is not only about getting the second or third volley in. If at range, a slow second launch can see your sieges getting shot down right as they were about to hit the target - a second quicker launch would have seen them hit.
SKUNK
Yeah i very much agree. People also forget that you can use things like implants to boost the rof/damage further with little likelyhood of getting podded.
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venus divine
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Posted - 2008.09.07 21:59:00 -
[42]
and get in some gardes, and u can up your dps for additional 150dps?
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Gluecksbaerchichen
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Posted - 2008.09.08 00:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: DJ FunkyBacon
As to some of the detractors about the skill of the pilots involved, you're right, it was a rag tag bunch, not very well coordinated and had the same bunch been on TS and synchronized, they might have had a better shot...
I almost spat my coke over my keyboard when I read this... I didn't think you could get 30 pilots to agree to a random suicide gank WITHOUT even TS... Was this Eve-Radio-People?
Srsly, that is some weak ass shiat...
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Uziel Zero
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Posted - 2008.09.08 08:55:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Uziel Zero on 08/09/2008 08:59:20 Regarding the "10 second survival time" everyone is using as criteria for their theories, in this experiment did the attackers only survive for 10 seconds, or were they able to maintain locks and shoot for 10 seconds?
Without clarification from the OP, the evidence provided (all ships except the smartbomber only got off one volley, reports of being jammed before guns fired) suggests everyone got sensor jammed immediately. This negates any argument of RoF factoring in.
If there's a separate spawn for each aggressor, then a perfect,simultaneous attack would make no difference than one a few seconds off in regards to the survival time of the aggressors. The screenshot seems to suggest that each CONCORD spawn only deals with the aggressor that spawned it.
Edit: Is there any way you can get hold of a battle log from the test to see the exact times between hostile action and CONCORD intervention?
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Gotk
Caldari Federation of Builders Inc The Five
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Posted - 2008.09.08 15:28:00 -
[45]
from what i experienced, it was 10 second alive, with when i fired it was a case of "lose lock" then the animation along with damage logs came up i imagine if we HAD been organised we might have got him, still would have been DAMN close though
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Dibble Dabble
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Posted - 2008.09.08 18:53:00 -
[46]
Thanks folks,
I now feel a lot safer in Empire now.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.08 19:41:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 08/09/2008 19:44:03
Originally by: Uziel Zero Edited by: Uziel Zero on 08/09/2008 08:59:20This negates any argument of RoF factoring in.
ROF does not equal MISSILE HITTING TARGET.
1)The missile has to travel to the target to achieve damage. 2)The tareget is usualy not at zero km 3)Concord shoot down missiles mid ait when they arrive.
So getting the missiles in the air faster is not only about getting the second or third volley in. If at range, a slow second launch can see your sieges getting shot down right as they were about to hit the target - a second quicker launch would have seen them hit.
** Assuming 10 seconds till concord turn up. 4 Seconds Flight Time. 6.5 ROF
0 sec: First Volley fire 4 Sec: First Volley Hit 6.5 Sec : Second Volley Fire 10 Sec: Concord Spawn 10.1 Sec: Concord pop the missiles, jams and kill you
TOTAL = 1 HIT
** Assuming 10 seconds till concord turn up. 4 Seconds Flight Time. 6 ROF
0 sec: First Volley fire 4 Sec: First Volley Hit 6 Sec : Second Volley Fire 10 Sec: Second Volley Hit 10 Sec: Concord Spawn 10.1 Sec: Concord jams and kill you
2 VOLLEYS HIT
(figures chosen for demonstration purposes not accurate)
SKUNK
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.08 19:47:00 -
[48]
BTW also of note was the possibility the smartbomber was actually popping the torps and missiles mid flight
SKUNK
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.09.08 19:51:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Uziel Zero The screenshot seems to suggest that each CONCORD spawn only deals with the aggressor that spawned it.
Experience pre nerf was 100% the opposite. What was known in the business as a "dirty gate" IE one with a concord spawn already on it, would put off a lot of gankers. If you were determined to use it, you had to factor in more firepower.
SKUNK
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.09.08 20:58:00 -
[50]
From what I recall there aren't a lot of weapons out there that give you a second volley. Maybe the medium shortrange stuff and smaller.
No matter how you set up a torp raven, there will be only one volley in flight, because concord instajams/neuts pretty quick now. In that 0.5 sys it was somewhere in a 10 sec ballpark. (thats why I picked the SB setup... well... and the possibilty to kill all the competitors was also pretty tempting )
Yes, ofc, a coordinated torpraven suicide gank CAN still kill transports (freighters will be a REAL challenge ) but I'd estimate the cost you have to invest will shift the friggin balance A LOT.
And should insurance payouts for concordokkens ever REALLY get removed, you can probably fill t1 haulers to the brim with mega again
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