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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:35:00 -
[1]
Seems there was a stealth buff to metal scraps. The 5m¦ item now refines into 500(5m¦ of trit) units of Trit, as opposed to its previous 10 units of Trit.
Quick people to your Batmobiles.
Enjoy it while you can before others clue in.
P.S. donations accepted
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:45:00 -
[2]
p.s.s. I hate undocumented stealth buffs or nerfs
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Frenden Dax
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:49:00 -
[3]
Within a few moments of your post, I saw at least two buy orders shoot up by 500%. :P Well, three if you count mine.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.05 20:58:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Frenden Dax
Within a few moments of your post, I saw at least two buy orders shoot up by 500%. :P Well, three if you count mine.
No big surprise.
Another fun fact for this change.
You can roughly self destruct 20ish noob frigs an hour, and if you salvage that. You end up with 10k units of trit an hour, or 25k isk an hour. Granted it is not glamorous, but it is a way to make "free" trit whereever you may need it, as long as you have a station handy.
Working as intended?
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Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
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Posted - 2008.09.05 21:05:00 -
[5]
You find all the "fun" bugs dont you Tree. 
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Inoshuu
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.05 22:29:00 -
[6]
Why would the buy orders shoot up 500%?
Makes no sense if most people were unaware of the changes to trit per scrap metal. Why not leave it the way it was before, after all as buyer, you're ripping off the sellers.
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Frenden Dax
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Posted - 2008.09.05 23:25:00 -
[7]
No idea. Personally I would have simply placed a buy order 0.01 isk higher than the previous so as not to attract attention but I guess people overreacted/panicked/whatever.
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Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.09.06 00:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Inoshuu
...you're ripping off the sellers.
Personally I'm not a fan when people say that traders are "ripping" people off. All they do is provide a service. They want quick liquid ISK, I'm willing to give you x amount for it now and sell it for you so that you can have your cash immediately. How is this any different than any other service in EVE? They are not coerced in any way to sell at my price, all the information I have about the pricing of the good is fully available to them, and its a mutually beneficial exchange.
Just my .02 ISK...
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.06 01:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nido Gentz
Just my .02 ISK...
I'll give you 0.01 isk for that.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.09.06 02:35:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
I'll give you 0.01 isk for that.
cheapskate 
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Inoshuu
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.06 04:29:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nido Gentz
Originally by: Inoshuu
...you're ripping off the sellers.
Personally I'm not a fan when people say that traders are "ripping" people off. All they do is provide a service. They want quick liquid ISK, I'm willing to give you x amount for it now and sell it for you so that you can have your cash immediately. How is this any different than any other service in EVE? They are not coerced in any way to sell at my price, all the information I have about the pricing of the good is fully available to them, and its a mutually beneficial exchange.
Just my .02 ISK...
There's no such thing as mutually beneficial exchange in the market. Nobody is looking to exchange goods without having to gain isk in the process. After all, the idea of capital market is to make as much money as possible right? Isn't that what Eve market is all about? Capitalism?
Having buy orders shoot up 500% to reflect changes in reprocess return is direct contrary to that statement.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2008.09.06 05:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: Frenden Dax
Within a few moments of your post, I saw at least two buy orders shoot up by 500%. :P Well, three if you count mine.
No big surprise.
Another fun fact for this change.
You can roughly self destruct 20ish noob frigs an hour, and if you salvage that. You end up with 10k units of trit an hour, or 25k isk an hour. Granted it is not glamorous, but it is a way to make "free" trit whereever you may need it, as long as you have a station handy.
Working as intended?
The sad part is that I noticed the buff...figured it a mistake and bugged it. Logged onto the test server and started mussing around with the possibilities.
You nailed this one before I got to it.
Yay for unintended consequences!
/no seriously, good on you Tree, this one will prolly go by ebye next down time |
Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.09.06 15:04:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Inoshuu
There's no such thing as mutually beneficial exchange in the market. Nobody is looking to exchange goods without having to gain isk in the process. After all, the idea of capital market is to make as much money as possible right? Isn't that what Eve market is all about? Capitalism?
Having buy orders shoot up 500% to reflect changes in reprocess return is direct contrary to that statement.
Capitalism is all about mutually beneficial exchanges. If it wasn't mutually beneficial then individuals wouldn't engage in the transaction unless coerced. In the case of the market, the mission runner sells goods, satisfies his need for quick liquid ISK without the hassle of selling it himself so he can go out and run more missions. I buy the good and sell it for him. We both profit, he can go back and do what he is good at (i.e. missions), and I make money selling the good for him.
I donĘt really see how you are making the point that because buy orders shot up 500%, that traders are ripping people off? The only argument that I am making is that traders and sellers engage in mutually beneficial exchanges otherwise they wouldnĘt engage in it.
I can think of several reasons for the buy order shooting up, but its really here nor there.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.06 16:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nido Gentz
Originally by: Inoshuu
There's no such thing as mutually beneficial exchange in the market. Nobody is looking to exchange goods without having to gain isk in the process. After all, the idea of capital market is to make as much money as possible right? Isn't that what Eve market is all about? Capitalism?
Having buy orders shoot up 500% to reflect changes in reprocess return is direct contrary to that statement.
Capitalism is all about mutually beneficial exchanges. If it wasn't mutually beneficial then individuals wouldn't engage in the transaction unless coerced. In the case of the market, the mission runner sells goods, satisfies his need for quick liquid ISK without the hassle of selling it himself so he can go out and run more missions. I buy the good and sell it for him. We both profit, he can go back and do what he is good at (i.e. missions), and I make money selling the good for him.
I donĘt really see how you are making the point that because buy orders shot up 500%, that traders are ripping people off? The only argument that I am making is that traders and sellers engage in mutually beneficial exchanges otherwise they wouldnĘt engage in it.
I can think of several reasons for the buy order shooting up, but its really here nor there.
Even in markets where there is some duress (eg, ransoming missioners in low sec), a transaction usually occurs because it is better than the alternatives for both parties. If one treats any transfer of valuable assets as a market transaction, then about the only transactions that aren't mutually beneficial are scams and theft.
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.09.08 10:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Treelox
Seems there was a stealth buff to metal scraps. The 5m¦ item now refines into 500(5m¦ of trit) units of Trit, as opposed to its previous 10 units of Trit.
Quick people to your Batmobiles.
Enjoy it while you can before others clue in.
P.S. donations accepted
Nice, now I am rich !!! I have 5000+ metal scraps.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.08 10:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bad Messenger
Originally by: Treelox
Seems there was a stealth buff to metal scraps. The 5m¦ item now refines into 500(5m¦ of trit) units of Trit, as opposed to its previous 10 units of Trit.
Quick people to your Batmobiles.
Enjoy it while you can before others clue in.
P.S. donations accepted
Nice, now I am rich !!! I have 5000+ metal scraps.
well make sure to refine them before the next DT, when they might "fix" this.
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Pax Empyrean
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Posted - 2008.09.08 20:44:00 -
[17]
Looks like Nido and Tasko already nailed the rather stupid claim that there is no mutually beneficial exchange. Every exchange is believed by the participants to be beneficial when it happens, otherwise it doesn't happen.
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Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.08 21:36:00 -
[18]
...In other news, noted industrialist and entrepreneur Treelox is slated for summary execution at 2200 GMT this evening by all who were in the know of the recent scrapmetal changes... also, Amarrian hair extensions; new fangled craze or coming change?...
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Inoshuu
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.08 21:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Pax Empyrean
Looks like Nido and Tasko already nailed the rather stupid claim that there is no mutually beneficial exchange. Every exchange is believed by the participants to be beneficial when it happens, otherwise it doesn't happen.
I buy slave alpha in Jita for 95 mil and resell them in Sinq Laison for 140 mil. Is that mutually beneficial? No, the buyer got ripped off for 45 mil. Don't tell me that this is a small occurrence, I do it all the time and I have no doubt that other people are doing this as well.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Inoshuu
I buy slave alpha in Jita for 95 mil and resell them in Sinq Laison for 140 mil. Is that mutually beneficial?
You presume the buyer got ripped off (using your example). What do you know of the buyer's circumstances? Perhaps he is a Gall/Min militiaman and can not go to Jita. Perhaps he simply doesn't care to bother with the trouble and couldn't crap about paying the transport premium. In fact, his circumstance(s) are not only unknown to you, and most likely will never be known to you, but, most importantly to capitalism, none of your concern. You were happy to list the product at that price and he was happy to purchase the product at that price. No one was forced, by either party or circumstance(s), to complete the sale. That is the definition of " mutual transaction". The beneficial part of that is, after all, inherit. PS: Why do people try to impose their social values on non-social activities? Just plain silly.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Inoshuu
I buy slave alpha in Jita for 95 mil and resell them in Sinq Laison for 140 mil. Is that mutually beneficial?
You presume the buyer got ripped off (using your example). What do you know of the buyer's circumstances? Perhaps he is a Gall/Min militiaman and can not go to Jita. Perhaps he simply doesn't care to bother with the trouble and couldn't crap about paying the transport premium. In fact, his circumstance(s) are not only unknown to you, and most likely will never be known to you, but, most importantly to capitalism, none of your concern. You were happy to list the product at that price and he was happy to purchase the product at that price. No one was forced, by either party or circumstance(s), to complete the sale. That is the definition of " mutual transaction". The beneficial part of that is, after all, inherit. PS: Why do people try to impose their social values on non-social activities? Just plain silly.
This.
Except I would argue on the semantics of whether trade constitutes a 'social' activity...
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
Except I would argue on the semantics of whether trade constitutes a 'social' activity...
Do I need to say hi to you during any part of the transaction from the market? There ya go, debate over. I do not discount social aspects to other kinds of trade activities (i.e. between corp mates, colleagues, etc., etc.) but when one is talking about the Eve market (and the system it is based upon) social considerations are a non-consideration.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:40:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Do I need to say hi to you during any part of the transaction from the market? There ya go, debate over.
I do not discount social aspects to other kinds of trade activities (i.e. between corp mates, colleagues, etc., etc.) but when one is talking about the Eve market (and the system it is based upon) social considerations are a non-consideration.
No, but the consideration that product transfers from one hand to another is, in itself, social.
You may not 'choose' to look on the transaction log and see who bought/sold from you, or not communicate with them, but the act in and of itself is a form of communication (i.e. I place a buy order for widgets at 50 isk a pop, you agree with me by selling them at my price on the market).
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
No, but the consideration that product transfers from one hand to another is, in itself, social.
Hmmmm... transaction automatically equating to some form of communication (socially) seems to be a real stretch to me. While you are correct that there is some form of coordination between both parties unintentional or collateral messages via anonymous proxy system really isn't communication.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Chomin H'ak
The Trivenerate
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Posted - 2008.09.08 22:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
No, but the consideration that product transfers from one hand to another is, in itself, social.
Hmmmm... transaction automatically equating to some form of communication (socially) seems to be a real stretch to me. While you are correct that there is some form of coordination between both parties unintentional or collateral messages via anonymous proxy system really isn't communication.
I would argue it is; I would akin it to an advanced form of phone tag... except that your order allows you to take the message and give them what they want without further beepage.
Originally by: Frenden Dax
My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
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Inoshuu
Caldari
Flux Technologies Inc
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Posted - 2008.09.09 00:17:00 -
[26]
Hmm...I think I got ****d by Shar...
And I like it 
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Nido Gentz
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Posted - 2008.09.09 02:06:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Inoshuu
Hmm...I think I got ****d by Shar...
And I like it
You had already been shown the foolishness of your arguments by me and Tasko, but yes, Shar certainly finished you off 
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2008.09.09 02:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
...In other news, noted industrialist and entrepreneur Treelox is slated for summary execution at 2200 GMT this evening by all who were in the know of the recent scrapmetal changes... also, Amarrian hair extensions; new fangled craze or coming change?...
:)
I refer you to my corp name......
:)
I dispise non documented ninja changes, it really is not fair play in the least. I had a couple choices; stay silent, profit from it, or inform everyone else. I chose the last opition, since it was a totally undocumented change.
While I have no problems with screwing the next guy over, I am of the believe that we should all have the same starting point. Not taking advantage of what could possibly be an exploit or unintended error on CCP's side, that just wouldnt be sporting. For me at least.
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.09 03:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Chomin H'ak
No, but the consideration that product transfers from one hand to another is, in itself, social.
Hmmmm... transaction automatically equating to some form of communication (socially) seems to be a real stretch to me. While you are correct that there is some form of coordination between both parties unintentional or collateral messages via anonymous proxy system really isn't communication.
I think it's well established that market transactions communicate pretty valuable economic information. And given that one can potentially use the information (trader name in particular) from a transaction to start a social interaction, they communicate a slight amount of social information. As I see it, social communication is similar but different from economic communication. The latter is more formal and concerned with the exchange of value, usually with an isk amount attached to it. In social communication, the isk value of the communication generally isn't paramount. I might think, "Is this trade worth it? Can I get a better price without traveling halfway across Eve?" when I make a trade, but I'm not thinking "Is ROI for posting in this thread worth it? I'm cutting Shar off, she's costing me isk." 
There are more technical differences. For example, trade in a very active market may mean that I do numerous trades with dozens or even hundreds of traders (eg, region wide ore buys). It's an interaction with a cloud of other traders. Most of them are one time, I might trade with the other again, but neither of us are going to remember past trades.
In social interactions, you generally engage in more protracted exchange with a small number of parties, say a couple of posts on the forum or a few minutes of chatting in a chatroom. Even pvp fights tends to have a lot more interaction than a trade.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.09.09 03:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Treelox
Not taking advantage of what could possibly be an exploit or unintended error on CCP's side, that just wouldnt be sporting. For me at least.
^^^ Why I love you. Originally by: Treelox
While I have no problems with screwing the next guy over
^^^ Why I still don't trust you though. PS: I'd put a smiley but then you might think I was joking. 
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
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