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Holi
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Posted - 2004.06.13 11:51:00 -
[1]
I wanted to make a little PvP frigatte setup, so I'd naturally need a webby and a warpscrambler. With my skills they eat 20cap/21sec and 20cap/26.25sec. The cap on my ship is 225 with 168.75 recharge time.
This would give me 1.7143cap/sec usage with 1.3333cap/sec recovery, so in theory I should be totally out of cap after roughly ten minutes.
However, this is not the case - I don't mind that I can maintain the webber and scrambler forever, but would be nice to know why 
It seems to me that the actual caprecharge/sec is not captotal/rechargetime, but more along the lines (captotal+(captotal-actualcap))/rechargetime.
Does anybody know the actual formula? Or am I missing something with my calculations?
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Holi
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Holi
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Posted - 2004.06.13 12:05:00 -
[2]
Or maybe 2*(totalcap-currentcap)/rechargetime?
I also noticed, that when the cap is nearly full it recharges slower, and the fixpoint of the cap seems to be around 75% and 1.3333/1.7143 = 0.7777
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Holi
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.06.13 12:08:00 -
[3]
Try to divide 0.63*CapSize with Rechargerate/5.
That would give you a rechargerate of 4.2 cap/second, try to see if you can use that much by fitting other modules, as I'm not sure this is completely right.
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Sqalevon
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Posted - 2004.06.13 12:11:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Sqalevon on 13/06/2004 12:23:52
I can only try and explain it from a RL point of view.
Capacitors recharge in a non linear way, they will recharge with a curve, wich is dependent on the voltage in the capasitor, and the voltage of the source.
if the difference between the power source and the capacitor is high ( the capacitor is empty ) it will recharge fast.
but when the difference between the capacitor and the source is growing smaller, the capacitor will recharge less fast.
U can visalise this by having a pool, and another pool.
The first one is REALLY BIG :P
And the second one is small.
there is a gab between the 2 pools that runs from top to bottom.
now if the smaller pool is flooded with water from the larger pool, the difference between the levels gets smaller and the filling proceeds slower :P
now I will make some funky paint picture to help u even more :-)
but thats kinda the theory behind it.
-----
Ok I finished my crappy drawing :-)
Clicky
Here u can see :
at the beginning a steep refill, and at the end a slow refill.
If you check ingame, you can see that the quantity of cap that is recharged when your cap is empty ( per tick ) is more then when its almost full.
I hope this helps 
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Holi
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Posted - 2004.06.13 12:16:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Jarjar
Try to divide 0.63*CapSize with Rechargerate/5.
That would give you a rechargerate of 4.2 cap/second, try to see if you can use that much by fitting other modules, as I'm not sure this is completely right.
One thing's sure, it can't be a fixed rechargerate since then I'd be at full cap before the modules reactivate or I would eventually run out of cap, but it just goes to a fixpoint around 75% cap (sucked down a bit when modules active, and goes above it a little till the next cycle, but never reaches 100% or 0%).
So the rechargerate must be somehow telated to the current cap of the ship...
It's kinda fun trying ot figure out how in-game mechanics work 
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Holi
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.06.13 12:21:00 -
[6]
The peak cap recharge you get seems to be roughly 2.4-2.5 times the cap recharge you get by dividing cap total by recharge time.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2004.06.13 13:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Holi
One thing's sure, it can't be a fixed rechargerate since then I'd be at full cap before the modules reactivate or I would eventually run out of cap, but it just goes to a fixpoint around 75% cap (sucked down a bit when modules active, and goes above it a little till the next cycle, but never reaches 100% or 0%).
Yeah, I forgot to mention, that rechargerate that I posted should be somewhere around 40-70% cap, the max rechargerate that is.
BTW, the cap loads more slowly when almost empty too, not sure why but I'm damn sure that's how it works.
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Holi
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Posted - 2004.06.13 13:28:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Holi on 13/06/2004 13:32:55
Ignore this post. Tought something, posted it, retought and figured it's not true 
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.06.13 13:45:00 -
[9]
I think I have the formula figured out. It would make sense that it is
C = C_0(1-exp(-t/tau)
but I think it is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
where C_0 is max capacity. I would give you fancy pics if I could host them somewhere.
__________
Capacitor research |
Holi
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Posted - 2004.06.14 09:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
I think I have the formula figured out. It would make sense that it is
C = C_0(1-exp(-t/tau)
but I think it is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
where C_0 is max capacity. I would give you fancy pics if I could host them somewhere.
Looks good, will try it in-game once I can get the modules (or my cap stats) close enough to max recharge to test it
Thx m8. If it's confirmed, maybe we should post a new topic and ask for a sticky - I think many people appreciate fitting infos, esp if they aren't so easy to figure like CPU and PG formulas.
--
Holi
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.06.14 10:17:00 -
[11]
I sent a post last saturday I think and it has been forwarded to the devs. I said that they could just post in this thread but if they reply directly to me I'll post it. If we don't get any reply let me know how your tests went, the cosh model fitted best for me but I can't be sure though.
__________
Capacitor research |
Devestator
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Posted - 2004.06.14 19:19:00 -
[12]
what are t and tau variables for?
Sorry not a math wiz here but i would still like to calculate how much cap i am recovering at 40% to 70%.
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Steven Bates
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Posted - 2004.06.14 20:23:00 -
[13]
To sum up the equation, for every time constant in a capacitive circuit (which is determined by the resistance and capacitance in the circuit) the value of voltage will change by 63.2% of the difference of the final to intial (the value at the previous time constant), i.e. given a circuit with a tc of 1 sec and a max voltage of 1 volt, after the first time constant (1 sec), the charge on the capacitor will equal .632V, after the second tc (2 sec)= .8645V and so on a so forth never actually reaching 100%. Normally though its assumed at steady state after 5 tc.
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T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.06.16 01:02:00 -
[14]
um, can you explain in a more clear way?
the formula is: C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
He said that C_0 = max cap of ship
I'm guessing C = current cap of ship.
Tau = ?
t = ?
Can you tell me what Tau and T are? An example with one of the ships would be great.
T.
--
always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.06.16 02:49:00 -
[15]
After a bit of thinking, this is what I came up with:
You can give yourself that max recharge time = tau*t
On my apoc, this is 739,12 seconds.
Let's find out cap speed at 20%, 40%, and 60%
20%: tau*t = tau*147,824 seconds
tau should be = 0,0067648014
Using the C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
C_0 = 6912
Let's check C at 134 seconds and 135 seconds (i.e. 20%).
C134 = 2041,11981
C135 = 2064,497314
cap recharge @ 20% = 23,37750397
40%:
C268 = 4672,205391
c269 = 4686,49915
cap recharge @ 40% = 14,29375915
60%
C402 = 5986,354139
C403 = 5992,539167
cap recharge 60% = 6,185027993
I might be using kinda fuzzy logic at finding the factor of tau.. Basically by inverting tau at the 20% mark, I'm choosing that this is where it should be at its fastest.
I've read that in real life, capacitors do show their fastest cap recharge at the 20% mark.. so I don't think I'm far off. I didn't read his though directly, I only read that 5*tau*t is a close enough approximation to total cap recharge time to be valid..
I've yet to check it out though with experiments.. could be different in EVE.
T.
--
always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
Steven Bates
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Posted - 2004.06.16 03:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Steven Bates on 16/06/2004 03:25:45
I teach basic electricity. Capacitor voltage is a basic buildup equation using natural log (i.e. that e number).
Sorry if anything is mispelled or misleading, usually when I post, I'm already toasted. :)
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2004.06.16 09:48:00 -
[17]
Sorry should have explained the formule better. The C_0 is just the max capacitor and the tau is just a time constant so that the capacitor is almost charged when it¦s supposed to. That is the capacitor may have 500sec recharge time then we can choose tau so that the capacitor is 99.99% full at that time (the capacitor will never take exactly the value C_0 as 1/cosh(x) will never be 0 for any x). The t has actually little meaning for us but it's just to describe the curve the charging takes. I made graphs of the the recharge curve and the instantanious recharge rate curve which can be seen here.
For the first picture the cap is on the y-axis (I just assumed 100 cap) and the time is on the x-axis. The lower one has cap per sec on y-axis and again time on the x-axis. As you can see from the pic the max recharge rate is somewhere just over 50 sec. 50sec on the top pic is about 20 cap so when you see your cap go below 20/100 = 20% you better turn some modules of as there is not a change that the ship can maintain all the modules at once.
Hope this explains anything but ofcourse its almost worthless if the formula is wrong.
__________
Capacitor research |
T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.06.16 12:11:00 -
[18]
ok, thanks for the info mate :)
First, I found that the interval for the cap recharge rate is a little shorter than half a second (need to take down the frequency for one minute)
Second, the recharge rate is around 31 per second at the 20% level, and the amount predicted was off.
So I'll need to take down statistics and try to make the formula conform to the data, then see if it works with a few different types of ships.
Will be interesting to see if we can nail this down :)
T.
--
always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
Ankanos
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Posted - 2004.06.16 23:09:00 -
[19]
Hi guys.. just some small notes and suggestion from redaing other threads..
1st and easiest.. Post his question to Goldeneye
on eve-i.com.. i know he definatly reads the fighter forum.. He is math wiz and also an electrical engineer(i think)..and has a great knack for simplifying the cap questions..
i dont know if this will help..but i think you can apply what i post here to the question(s) you posed.
off hand what i remember him stating is that the cap regen is FIXED to the default cap size of the ship and does not scale with cap size. just by adding a cap battery you increase your regen rate.
there was thread about cap stuff, in which he
illustrated that two tech 1 powerdiags (7.5% cap
regen, 4% cap boost) do not boost your cap size
by just 15%, but in fact, 2 pdu's will boost your regen to an effective 24.5% because of the additional cap increase they give..
i later asked if he could reillustrate the matter and figure the effective regen for tech 2 pdu's (8.5% regen, 5% cap boost) and iirc 2 tech 2 pdu's resulted in 31.xx% boost..not 17%
so when you use pdu's the regen number is lying to you..still not the 20% of a relay but its close.
(now, , if we could only con the devs to lowers the cpu usage atad on'em) :)
hope this helps somehow with your question..
---Update... i found one of the threads w/the math in it.. Linkage to Cap stuff on eve-i -its the very last post
if you cant be arsed to go to eve-i, here is the relavant math from that post -big props to
Goldeneye for his help. (and brain ) 
---
Quote:
Oooh, ooh, someone mentioned my name?!!
Actually it was someone else who concluded that diags improve recharge by enhancing cap AND loadtime. I then used it in one of my fancy calculations :p. Dunno who it was...
ok, take a Bantam for example (crap capacitor): 100 cap in 75 seconds
overall recharge = 1.333 en/sec
max recharge = 4.2 en/sec
1 powerdiag II would improve cap by 5% and improve caprate (reduce recharge time) by 8.5%
--> new stats are 105 cap in 68.625 seconds
overall recharge is now 1.53 en/sec
max recharge 4.82 en/sec
that's a 1.53 / 1.333... = 1.148 --> 14.8% improvement
two tech IIs give 1.148 * 1.148 = 1.317 --> 31.7% improvement
there ya have it
PS: it doesn't matter what ship you pick, the improvement% is the same for a bantam or an apoc
hope this helps.. cheers!
-ank
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Ky Vatta
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Posted - 2004.06.17 02:03:00 -
[20]
I noticed this: If you fit a Capacitor Battery, the recharge time is the same as without it! This means that your capacitor will recharge faster (a lot of people think fitting a cap recharger does better, but it is not so)
Corp Chief Engineer |
T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.06.17 02:10:00 -
[21]
woot!
Ok, thanks for the info from goldeneye. After searching for his name and going over his replies, I found what he used
basically: ( total_cap * 0,63 ) / ( total_recharge_time / 5 )
It gives close enough data that I'll be comfortable using it as a max regen/sec basis. And it actually lies around the 20% range, so I was heading in the right direction.
T.
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always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
Kel Shek
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Posted - 2004.06.17 05:18:00 -
[22]
uhh..
I'm not even going to pretend to get all that.
now, yall actually get how its actually applied in the game?
any chance someone who actually does get how its applied in game, make an applet or spreadsheet or SOMETHING, that allows you to put in your capacitor size, your recharge rate, and what things you would be having on autorepeat or whatever, and what the draw... say, per minute, or whatever, woudl be on the cap, and it report if it would be sustainable indefinitely or how long, or whatever?
I ask, because basically I'm somewhat stumped on how the hell cap recharging really works.
for example in a <cap capacity>/<cap recharge>*<time> sense for like... mining, using that it works out that it should not last indefinitely.... but it in practice, being sustained indefinitely.
I am not complaining, of course, but I can't say I understand it.
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
Taumenka
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Posted - 2004.06.21 17:58:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Taumenka on 21/06/2004 18:16:51
Originally by: Ky Vatta
I noticed this: If you fit a Capacitor Battery, the recharge time is the same as without it! This means that your capacitor will recharge faster (a lot of people think fitting a cap recharger does better, but it is not so)
On smaller ships this might be the case but on bigger ones then ?
Since there are no XL Cap Batterys only micro,small, medium and large ones on a BS a Cap recharger is the obvious choice.
Ankanos: I didn't know you where such a Electronics Wiz!?!
On the recharge rate thingys:
Easiest way to explain it is that it is a "Bell" shaped recharge rate curve.
5####__#####
4###/##\####
3##/t1###\t2#
2#/######\##
1/########\#
0#1#2#3#4#5
As I tried to show above is that at 1 cap we have slow recharge but then at 3 cap we get 3 cap/sec instead of the 0.5 cap/sec at 1 cap then at 5 cap again we drop to almost 0.5 cap/sec again.
Once it drops below the "treshold" "t1" i.e we use to much cap, we end in the bad spiral leading down to run out of cap. And on the other side at "t2" we can never get above the treshhold since there the cap recharge rate decreases to much to sustain the cap hungry equipment we have on.
Hopes this makes sense to ppl.
Edit: To plottry
Drink StarsiÖ
Are you Caldari enough?
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Urfin
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Posted - 2004.06.21 21:53:00 -
[24]
Cap recharge peaks at 2,5 times the nominal rate (cap size/recharge time), at about 50-40% capacity. Proven the hard way (hours of testing with total constant drain = slightly more and slightly less than 2,5 the recharge rate)
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Caya
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Posted - 2004.09.22 20:50:00 -
[25]
Siddy got the same number as me (almost)
i use 2,3 to be sure.
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Caya
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Posted - 2004.09.22 20:50:00 -
[26]
Siddy got the same number as me (almost)
i use 2,3 to be sure.
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2005.07.17 17:12:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:36:47
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:24:01
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:23:28
Originally by: Dust Puppy
I think I have the formula figured out. It would make sense that it is
C = C_0(1-exp(-t/tau)
but I think it is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
where C_0 is max capacity. I would give you fancy pics if I could host them somewhere.
Your first formula is not correct. It should be:
C = C_0*(1-exp(-t/R*C))
tau is only equal to R*C when the capacitor is charged at C_0*(1-EXP(-1)) or C_0*0.63 or 63%
I'm sure your formula is correct (I can see that on the graphic) but you don't use the correct naming.
Could you explain more in detail how you come to those values? Step-by-step formula?
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2005.07.17 17:24:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:35:47
error
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Sentani
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Posted - 2005.07.17 17:51:00 -
[29]
i think the cap recharge has the same system as the sheild...
in sheilds its: sheild capasity / recharge time x 2.4
and in cap: max cap / recharge time x 2.4
i think this is the rigth formula... i allways use it
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.07.17 17:56:00 -
[30]
I found for the shields that 2.5 is more accurate then 2.4 but still not correct. 2.4 is to low and 2.5 is to high. The value is somewhere in between and I believe on the high end around about 2.47
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Uglious
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Posted - 2005.07.17 18:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Sentani
i think the cap recharge has the same system as the sheild...
in sheilds its: sheild capasity / recharge time x 2.4
and in cap: max cap / recharge time x 2.4
i think this is the rigth formula... i allways use it
Correct from my experience. You don't have to understand all the math brought up to understand recharge rates. Just take "total/recharge time*2.4" for both cap and for shields.
The implications of this is that adding total cap increases recharge rate, just as decreasing time does, and depending on the situation one approach will help more than another. Another implication is that adding cap/reducing the recharge time does NOT impact in a linear way. The chart below (using base stats for an apoc) show how much cap/second you get with the addition of 15% cap recharge modules (used since there are 15% for mid and low slots), and the cap/second delta each module gives over the previous module--notice that a single recharge modules does very little on the actual rate, but as you decrease the recharge rate, it becomes much more dramatic.
caprecharge timemodulecap/s Delta
4800923 na12.48104009
4800784.55 -0.1514.683576572.202536486
4800666.8675-0.1517.274795972.591219395
4800566.837375-0.1520.323289373.048493406
4800481.8117688-0.1523.90975223.586462831
4800409.5400034-0.1528.129120244.219368036
4800348.1090029-0.1533.093082644.963962395
4800295.8926525-0.1538.93303845.839955759
4800251.5087546-0.1545.803574586.870536187
Now, if we put in three cap battery 2's in the mid slots we get
capseconds bonuscap/s Delta
4800923 12.48104009
5360923 0 13.937161431.456121343
5920923 0 15.393282771.456121343
6480923 016.849404121.456121343
6480784.55 0.1519.822828372.973424256
6480666.86750.1523.320974563.498146183
6480566.8373750.1527.436440654.115466098
6480481.81176880.1532.278165484.841724821
6480409.54000340.1537.974312325.696146849
You can see that batteries provide a much more "stable" increase vs. the rechargers. The rule of thumb is to use a battery if/when it provides a bigger boost overall on the recharge rate vs. a recharger (which in this case doesn't happen) OR you want a large initial cap at the expense of recharge rate, which may apply for example when you are traveling and you run out of cap often mid-jump.
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ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.17 20:14:00 -
[32]
Jesus people. Just use This
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2005.07.17 23:20:00 -
[33]
This is an excel sheet with the calculations and graphics
CapRecharge.xls
You can view a picture of it here
CapCalc.jpg
I believe this is still not 100% correct, but it gives the same results as the formula with x2.4 factor
I think the curves are pulled up a little to decrease the cap drain outside the max cap recharge zone. If they wouldn't have done that your cap would go down realy fast till around 40%, under 15% the cap would again drop too fast.
I'll need more time to test and confirm
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Niklas
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Posted - 2005.07.17 23:49:00 -
[34]
Just use the simple method.
Total cap / cap recharge rate X 2.5
this will give you your maximum recharge rate. So anything below that number will be sustainable. This is used for shield recharge rate also.
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Admiral Pieg
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Posted - 2005.07.18 02:54:00 -
[35]
this thread is older then sliced bread
______________________
Pod from above. |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.07.18 09:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Nosferatu Zodd
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:36:47
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:24:01
Edited by: Nosferatu Zodd on 17/07/2005 17:23:28
Originally by: Dust Puppy
I think I have the formula figured out. It would make sense that it is
C = C_0(1-exp(-t/tau)
but I think it is
C = C_0(1-1/cosh(tau*t))
where C_0 is max capacity. I would give you fancy pics if I could host them somewhere.
Your first formula is not correct. It should be:
C = C_0*(1-exp(-t/R*C))
tau is only equal to R*C when the capacitor is charged at C_0*(1-EXP(-1)) or C_0*0.63 or 63%
I'm sure your formula is correct (I can see that on the graphic) but you don't use the correct naming.
Could you explain more in detail how you come to those values? Step-by-step formula?
Why in the name of all that is holy did you resurrect this thread to correct an error that is trivial and not even an error. tau is just a constant, I saw no reason to add two constants R and C because people don't need to know that tau is made up of R and C.
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Nosferatu Zodd
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Posted - 2005.07.18 18:13:00 -
[37]
Why do you live?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2005.07.19 05:14:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/07/2005 05:15:32
ôJesus people. Just use Thisö
ItÆs wrong for shields. Due to the way shields work you are better off using 2.5 you can even get away with 2.6. I did a lot of testing and my shield regen at 2.4 was 100dps yet even when people hit me for 105 or 110 DPS which is over 2.5 my shields still hold. So now I use 2.5.
But for cap I got between 2.4 and 2.5.
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