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c4 t	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:33:00 - [1] Edited by: c4 t on 09/09/2008 19:32:50 i dont follow gtc prices very much but i know just a few months ago they were at 400m for a 60 day code. it seems like the supply is really not meeting the demand at this point in time. im curious why, anybody have any ideas? ____________________________________________________________________ mostly harmless
Ilza	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:38:00 - [2] Don't know but it sucks!
c4 t	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:41:00 - [3] Originally by: c4 t Edited by: c4 t on 09/09/2008 19:32:50 i dont follow gtc prices very much but i know just a few months ago they were at 400m for a 60 day code. it seems like the supply is really not meeting the demand at this point in time. im curious why, anybody have any ideas? by the way i am not dumb and i have my own ideas but i would like to hear the ideas of others as well. not saying my ideas are good, but im not asking to be spoon fed like a wittle baby ____________________________________________________________________ mostly harmless
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:48:00 - [4] I've actually had to report a few "false" sales. I.e. "!" Seller puts up GTC for 500 and some unknown accepts that. Set up a series of these and you have a trend of market manipulation. The only solution, refuse to pay more than what you think and let supply increase. That'll fix the market, you don't have to buy gtc's after all. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.09 19:49:00 - [5] Edited by: Shar Tegral on 09/09/2008 19:52:54 Oh and btw, could you replace your ____ line with [ /quote ]. It gets you the divider like my sig without breaking the forums like your solution does. (And it gives you more text room too!) To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
c4 t	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:03:00 - [6] Originally by: Shar Tegral Edited by: Shar Tegral on 09/09/2008 19:52:54 Oh and btw, could you replace your ____ line with [ /quote ]. It gets you the divider like my sig without breaking the forums like your solution does. (And it gives you more text room too!) thanks for the tip. manipulation of gtc prices, didnt think of that. i dont buy gtc's yet because that cripple what little capital i have at this moment but i do check that forum from time to time. mostly harmless
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:10:00 - [7] Originally by: c4 t Edited by: c4 t on 09/09/2008 19:32:50 i dont follow gtc prices very much but i know just a few months ago they were at 400m for a 60 day code. it seems like the supply is really not meeting the demand at this point in time. im curious why, anybody have any ideas? Because people who shell out real bucks for in-game money don't want to do it quite as much as they used to? Do you honestly expect anyone to know the specific motivations behind all the GTC buyers?
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:12:00 - [8] Originally by: c4 t Originally by: c4 t Edited by: c4 t on 09/09/2008 19:32:50 i dont follow gtc prices very much but i know just a few months ago they were at 400m for a 60 day code. it seems like the supply is really not meeting the demand at this point in time. im curious why, anybody have any ideas? by the way i am not dumb and i have my own ideas but i would like to hear the ideas of others as well. not saying my ideas are good, but im not asking to be spoon fed like a wittle baby So you have ideas, but you don't wanna tell us, you just want us to tell you... yet you claim to not want to be spoon fed like a baby? Sorry, those seem to be conflicting statements. How about you share your ideas first.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:14:00 - [9] Originally by: c4 t manipulation of gtc prices, didnt think of that. i dont buy gtc's yet because that cripple what little capital i have at this moment but i do check that forum from time to time. The primary flaw in price expectations is that the value of a GTC is totally subjective. Right now that value is being driven by the buyers some of which have created an artificial spike. Then you have people who simply get stuck and have to buy whatever the market is selling regardless of good sense. The ideal method of interacting with the TC Bazaar is simply to buy not when you need but when opportunity is there. Like any other market it is. Oh and have a definitive I won't pay line. If you see that being exceeded, better to pay CCP direct then to give more than you care to pay. The more people realize this to be so, the quicker the buyers react. To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:23:00 - [10] Originally by: Shar Tegral Oh and have a definitive I won't pay line. If you see that being exceeded, better to pay CCP direct then to give more than you care to pay. The more people realize this to be so, the quicker the buyers react. This is not a plausible solution for many. I know that I personally will never pay a single penny for EVE again. I play because I play for free through GTC's I buy with ISK. If that was removed for some reason I'd quit. Thus I don't really care what the price is for a GTC, I'll pay it. I have a feeling a lot of people are in a similar boat. People with 3-10 alts aren't going to shell out 45/150 a month to play EVE, they'll either cut back to 1-2 chars or just quit altogether if they can't buy GTC's. Perhaps people with plenty of disposable income (like people who buy the GTC's to sell the for ISK) can decide to simply pay an extra 15-30-45 or more per month whenever they wish. Not everyone these days has an extra 15+ per month to spend on EVE, they've become accustomed to not paying and thus will have a hard time scraping it together. I know some people think 15 bucks is nothing, but it can be a lot of money to some people. I have a friend who barely can afford her rent + meals + school each month, she doesn't play mmorpgs because she can't afford to. She doesn't even have highspeed internet anymore because the cheapest in the area is 30+ per month. So I would say you'll see quite a few people quitting eve about the same time you see people paying instead of using GTC's. Granted this will reduce demand, but not in a good way for the game. Thus CCP has quite a bit of motivation for keeping the prices moderate.
Panzerkom Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:31:00 - [11] a dissertation can probably written on this subject. but i think someone on the TC Bazaar board wrote something very good a couple of days ago. the author of that piece concluded that the price spike is temporary and is due to a large number of people who play on GTCs whose time are expiring; the author further predicted that the price will come down in a month or so.
Rho'varo Minmatar Diversified Operational Services	Posted - 2008.09.09 20:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Shar Tegral I've actually had to report a few "false" sales. I.e. "!" Seller puts up GTC for 500 and some unknown accepts that. Set up a series of these and you have a trend of market manipulation. Taking a quick look, I didn't notice any apparent "false" sales trying to pull prices down. Why wouldn't that underhanded technique be employed by both sellers and buyers (and ultimately cancel itself out)?
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadarle I have a feeling a lot of people are in a similar boat. Yes
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.09 21:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Panzerkom a dissertation can probably written on this subject. but i think someone on the TC Bazaar board wrote something very good a couple of days ago. the author of that piece concluded that the price spike is temporary and is due to a large number of people who play on GTCs whose time are expiring; the author further predicted that the price will come down in a month or so. This conclusion seems to defeat itself very quickly if you look at the logic behind it. Theory: People's accounts are expiring that relied on GTC's thus they are buying more GTC's now causing the price to go up temporarily but in a month or two prices will go down. Flaw: In a month or two all the people who have bought GTC's in the past month will need new GTC's because they will again be out of time. Since we have no way to know for sure how many people have bought GTC's on which days (unless someone wants to data-mine the forums and count them), I think we have to assume that there is a fairly equal volume from day to day, week to week. Perhaps with slightly larger spikes on certain days of the week (weekends perhaps) and after major patches. But it seems presumptuous to assume demand is not steady and instead has major spikes every 2 months, thus assuming most people buy their GTC's at the exact same time.
Sicil Fioet Minmatar	Posted - 2008.09.09 23:47:00 - [15] Originally by: c4 t Originally by: Shar Tegral Edited by: Shar Tegral on 09/09/2008 19:52:54 Oh and btw, could you replace your ____ line with [ /quote ]. It gets you the divider like my sig without breaking the forums like your solution does. (And it gives you more text room too!) thanks for the tip. manipulation of gtc prices, didnt think of that. i dont buy gtc's yet because that cripple what little capital i have at this moment but i do check that forum from time to time. There's only temporary manipulation going on in form of bumping other people's posts from long time ago that have low GTC prices or creating many WTB posts at high prices. This, however, is only a short term manipulation that is practiced by very few buyers and sellers and doesn't work all that well. Long term price fixing requires formation of seller cartels where all GTC sellers would agree to sell codes no lower than a certain price. With thousands of different people coming to the GTC forum to sell codes every week, I do not see how this is possible although several attempts have been made on the sellers' side to form such cartels. Because many people sell GTCs with alts and not regularly at that you'd have significant problems trying to fix game time code prices. I've been observing the GTC market and the spike really started just like 2 weeks ago. Both GTCs and characters are more expensive to buy now. It is hard to say whether this is due to higher demand or lower supply or both, but I am thinking it is the demand that has picked up. It is possible that the spike is simply due to increasing number of people starting to play EVE again - coming back from their summer vacations and trying to reactivate their accounts as well as purchase new characters to play with in fall and winter. Another source of rising GTC prices is that farmers dropped their prices on ISK by almost 2x ($60->$30/1b ISK). If i was some silly ISK buyer I'd be seriously tempted to buy from farmers right now instead of buying game time codes. This is of course CCP's fault that they are not restraining RMT as they should be doing.
Market Garden Operation Market Garden	Posted - 2008.09.11 00:05:00 - [16] It is evident that both sellers and buyers of gtc's are creating fake threads/bumping old threads to order to try and manipulate prices in their favour. Sellers want more isk for their money, and buyers want their time for cheaper.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.09.11 05:41:00 - [17] Edited by: Bloody Rabbit on 11/09/2008 05:41:59 Originally by: Market Garden It is evident that both sellers and buyers of gtc's are creating fake threads/bumping old threads to order to try and manipulate prices in their favour. Sellers want more isk for their money, and buyers want their time for cheaper. I know you all don't know me, that's fine. But yesterday I sold 2 60 day GTC for 500 million, took at least 30 mins per 60 day code. Then with the other 2 I didn't wish to put the time in so I sold them for 480 per to a single person. Had that person not buy the 2 I won't have sold them for that but they did. Now I can't attest to the other deals but I can tell you that my deals were real and players are really willing to pay those prices for GTC because like yesterday there was myself and another who were selling with 15 buyers spamming the channel. If you don't like the price, tough go buy GTC with money or don't buy. As for why I had 4, I was buying 2 and the website had a problem and I reloaded it; ended up buying 4 not 2. Originally by: Galliana Foresta And sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cos I wouldn't eat the filthy mother ****er.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.11 05:51:00 - [18] Put up a buy order for 495M isk last tuesday, the guy that responded didn't have much patience and retracted it within 10-20 minutes (was away for a few hours). Then someone starts selling a pile orf GTCs for 430M isk, bought one for that price ;-) So there are people who are willing to spend 500M isk for a 60 day GTC, but there are also people who are willing to sell much lower. Kind of depends on how much isk you have ands how much you want that character active.
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.09.11 15:36:00 - [19] Originally by: Cergorach So there are people who are willing to spend 500M isk for a 60 day GTC, but there are also people who are willing to sell much lower. Kind of depends on how much isk you have ands how much you want that character active. I have found from watching the channel that the weekend and USA night time is when the most GTC sellers are on (HINT!!!!) and the weekdays is when the most buyers are online. So time yourself for the best success. Originally by: Galliana Foresta And sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cos I wouldn't eat the filthy mother ****er.
Gothica Goth	Posted - 2008.09.11 22:30:00 - [20] One reason there can be spikes in GTC prices is the change from 30 day to 60 day codes. Assuming buyers were spread evenly, one month after the 60s were introduced there would be lower demand, the next higher and so forth till things even out.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.13 13:19:00 - [21] If you want to see something really interesting, go to eve-search.com and type in 'howard haines'. Now look at the posts it finds, and the char's that are buying GTC's for him, and the other chars they're buying GTCs for, and so on, until you get a list of all the char's that are 'connected' through buying GTC's for each others, I tried this many months ago and came up with I think 500 differnt chars all from the same isk selling sweatshop. I reported this to CCP and was told they did something about it, but just tonight, I find buying GTC's for 500m a char by the name of fudanzhong (eve search to see how many different chars he's buying for, it's impressive. And another lingqidian, who is connected to the afformentioned 'howard haines'. Between them, these two alone can buy a few dozen cards per day at least, from macro farmed isk. The isk cost them no time at all at the keyboard, so they will pay anything for GTCs, no matter what the cost, and they're eating up a huge amount of the supply. If any of their GTC'd chars gets banned, they simply make a new one and continue, with 30 day cards this was cheaper for them but now when they get banned (if) they lose 60 days of time. Which means even more demand for GTCs. I'm willing to bet that more of these chars were banned recently and so the GTC demand has risen sharply as they restablish their accounts. What really shocks me is how a network like this can be so completely obvious and yet CCP seem to ban one account at a time.
Kephael Caldari LEAP Corp Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2008.09.13 14:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Lord Fitz If you want to see something really interesting, go to eve-search.com and type in 'howard haines'. Now look at the posts it finds, and the char's that are buying GTC's for him, and the other chars they're buying GTCs for, and so on, until you get a list of all the char's that are 'connected' through buying GTC's for each others, I tried this many months ago and came up with I think 500 differnt chars all from the same isk selling sweatshop. I reported this to CCP and was told they did something about it, but just tonight, I find buying GTC's for 500m a char by the name of fudanzhong (eve search to see how many different chars he's buying for, it's impressive. And another lingqidian, who is connected to the afformentioned 'howard haines'. Between them, these two alone can buy a few dozen cards per day at least, from macro farmed isk. The isk cost them no time at all at the keyboard, so they will pay anything for GTCs, no matter what the cost, and they're eating up a huge amount of the supply. If any of their GTC'd chars gets banned, they simply make a new one and continue, with 30 day cards this was cheaper for them but now when they get banned (if) they lose 60 days of time. Which means even more demand for GTCs. I'm willing to bet that more of these chars were banned recently and so the GTC demand has risen sharply as they restablish their accounts. What really shocks me is how a network like this can be so completely obvious and yet CCP seem to ban one account at a time. Take a look at how they are acquiring characters, http://eve-search.com/thread/829677/page/1#10. The network of isk farmers is indeed massive, I wish people did not sell characters and GTCs to such obvious isk-farmers.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.13 14:56:00 - [23] Originally by: Kephael Take a look at how they are acquiring characters, http://eve-search.com/thread/829677/page/1#10. The network of isk farmers is indeed massive, I wish people did not sell characters and GTCs to such obvious isk-farmers. But of course if people didn't they will just keep raising their offer until someone does, the isk cost them no effort at all to acquire, they can afford to offer as much as is needed. I personally wouldn't sell them a GTC as you risk having it taken off you for buying isk or some such ;)
21 Salvager	Posted - 2008.09.13 15:19:00 - [24] Here's another major GTC buyer, I count 24 accounts with junk names an no standings in-game: bszcl
Darktec Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.13 17:22:00 - [25] Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.13 17:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. Why exactly should CCP do something about it? Why are high prices bad? If you can't afford one then don't buy them, prices will then drop on them if enough people can't afford them. It's supply and demand. Either there is too much demand or too little supply, or both. Personally I don't care what the price is. Many people on this forum make more isk in a single day than the cost of a GTC, so the prices are relatively low still if you ask me. Heck even mission runners should be making at least 10 mil/hour. Thus 50 hours to buy a GTC. 50 hours in 60 days, .83 hours per day of mission running to pay for a GTC. Doesn't seem too extreme. If it is then pay the 15 bucks instead, you know, 2 hours of minimum wage in the US. Or spend 50 hours in game.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.13 18:04:00 - [27] Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. LOL!!!!! Why should this be CCP's problem? The only price they set is the RL curreny price of the Game Card. It is your fellow players that are charging, and even worse paying what you see as "insane prices". If you and half of those whining about the current prices, would just suck it up and pay for a month or two of your play time with a credit card. Prices on GTC's would fall. Seriously these prices eb and flow, I dont understand why people dont buy when GTC's are cheap instead of only when they REALLY need one. Buying from a position of desperation, just means you will be a "victim" of the market. --
Darktec Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.13 19:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. Why exactly should CCP do something about it? Why are high prices bad? If you can't afford one then don't buy them, prices will then drop on them if enough people can't afford them. It's supply and demand. Either there is too much demand or too little supply, or both. Its because people will just go out and buy isk to buy the gtc, and yes, i know how stupid that is, but you can get isk cheaper than one month of eve, and if say you can buy a bill for 20$, spend half on a gtc, you get 60 days for 10 bucks. thus ccp loses money. It is the players problem, but its also CCP's
Clair Bear Coalition of Nations Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2008.09.13 19:37:00 - [29] Awesome, we're now well over 500M and pushing 600M for 60 day gtcs. You know what that means? Fewer alts of the 'stuff I make is free lol!' set out providing excess capacity. I hope this trend continues toward the 1B/60D ceiling predicted.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.13 20:14:00 - [30] Originally by: Darktec Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. Why exactly should CCP do something about it? Why are high prices bad? If you can't afford one then don't buy them, prices will then drop on them if enough people can't afford them. It's supply and demand. Either there is too much demand or too little supply, or both. Its because people will just go out and buy isk to buy the gtc, and yes, i know how stupid that is, but you can get isk cheaper than one month of eve, and if say you can buy a bill for 20$, spend half on a gtc, you get 60 days for 10 bucks. thus ccp loses money. It is the players problem, but its also CCP's May they all be ban'd from the game, that much sooner. Most of those sorts of people fail darwinistically on a regular basis and make up a huge base of the whiners, IMO. --
Darktec Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:29:00 - [31] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Darktec Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. Why exactly should CCP do something about it? Why are high prices bad? If you can't afford one then don't buy them, prices will then drop on them if enough people can't afford them. It's supply and demand. Either there is too much demand or too little supply, or both. Its because people will just go out and buy isk to buy the gtc, and yes, i know how stupid that is, but you can get isk cheaper than one month of eve, and if say you can buy a bill for 20$, spend half on a gtc, you get 60 days for 10 bucks. thus ccp loses money. It is the players problem, but its also CCP's May they all be ban'd from the game, that much sooner. Most of those sorts of people fail darwinistically on a regular basis and make up a huge base of the whiners, IMO. But heres the thing that hurts honest players... They come back, buy more isk to buy a toon / more time, and the circle starts anew.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.13 21:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Darktec But heres the thing that hurts honest players... They come back, buy more isk to buy a toon / more time, and the circle starts anew. You seem to know quite a bit about how ISK buyers operate. Just to humor you for a second here. 1. How exactly do you think CCP should go about policing GTC prices and bringing them down to a level you find acceptable. 2. What is a price you find acceptable. 3. What if someone else thinks your price is still too high, should CCP use your price or someone elses? 4. How do you think ISK sellers decide to price their ISK?
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.13 22:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Darktec Originally by: Treelox May they all be ban'd from the game, that much sooner. Most of those sorts of people fail darwinistically on a regular basis and make up a huge base of the whiners, IMO. But heres the thing that hurts honest players... They come back, buy more isk to buy a toon / more time, and the circle starts anew. "Honest" players wouldnt be buying isk in the first place, your argument of a circle lacks.... --
Darktec Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.13 23:24:00 - [34] Edited by: Darktec on 13/09/2008 23:24:59 You seem to know quite a bit about how ISK buyers operate. Ive seen it many, many times in other games, in fact, i used to know a guy who ran one, exported wow to some unknown country , and made a good deal of money. And if you know how it works, its very difficult to stop, and "honest" players , are the ones that you see offering around 400-450 mill for one, because they know that they arent worth 500 mill, they are only worth 500 mill if you have billions, or 500 mill is easy to get i.e. macror's. I dont have any solutions to this, its up for the player base to not be manipulated by people selling gtc to their alts and people thinking its real players buying them.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.14 01:22:00 - [35] Originally by: Darktec "honest" players , are the ones that you see offering around 400-450 mill for one, because they know that they arent worth 500 mill, they are only worth 500 mill if you have billions, or 500 mill is easy to get i.e. macror's. So if 500 mil is easy to get you're a macro'er? Originally by: Darktec I dont have any solutions to this, its up for the player base to not be manipulated by people selling gtc to their alts and people thinking its real players buying them. What are you even talking about? It sounds like you're saying people sell GTC's to their alts. Wouldn't they just give them to their alts? Or perhaps you mean people sell GTC's to other people's alt? I don't understand how this matters or is a bad thing either. Perhaps you could go back up and answer my questions from my previous post. Perhaps once you do so we can try to move forward instead of getting lost in this endless circle of you thinking everything in EVE should revolve around your personal budget.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.14 01:24:00 - [36] Originally by: Darktec And if you know how it works, its very difficult to stop, and "honest" players , are the ones that you see offering around 400-450 mill for one, because they know that they arent worth 500 mill, they are only worth 500 mill if you have billions, or 500 mill is easy to get i.e. macror's. Now you see thats the funny thing, GTC's are "worth" exactly what people will pay for them. Not what you wish you could pay for them. A perfect example of a free market in action. --- It should also be noted that plenty of GTC's are going at 450m/ea these days, you just need to be quick and catch the deal. --
Darktec Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.14 02:27:00 - [37] Quote: What are you even talking about? It sounds like you're saying people sell GTC's to their alts. Wouldn't they just give them to their alts? When the first few started going for 500 mill, people were posing WTS, then SOLD and it was their alts that were "buying" to try and raise the price.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.14 02:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Darktec Quote: What are you even talking about? It sounds like you're saying people sell GTC's to their alts. Wouldn't they just give them to their alts? When the first few started going for 500 mill, people were posing WTS, then SOLD and it was their alts that were "buying" to try and raise the price. Sounds pretty damn smart to me! Guess we have a lot of alts out there then, to sell so many at 500. I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.14 03:05:00 - [39] Edited by: Treelox on 14/09/2008 03:05:09 Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place. Nerf Capitalism!!!! :P --edit had to add the emoticon for ricdic..... --
Dranakolys Gallente Theurgy	Posted - 2008.09.14 08:02:00 - [40] Has anyone noticed any of the larger sellers disappearing? Its been a few months since I last bought a batch of GTCs so I can't tell. _______________ Amused to Death
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.09.14 11:03:00 - [41] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. LOL!!!!! Why should this be CCP's problem? The only price they set is the RL curreny price of the Game Card. The price of GTCs isn't CCP's problem, but the obvious isk farmers buying them should be. Quote: It is your fellow players that are charging, and even worse paying what you see as "insane prices". You can't blame people for selling them high, if that's what the market will pay, it's not on the other hand the 'fellow players' that are 'paying' it, it's the isk farmers. There is no problem with prices, there's a continual problem with some of the chars that are buying them, their activites in and out of game and how those are destroying the game for others.
Imperius Blackheart Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.14 11:19:00 - [42] Edited by: Imperius Blackheart on 14/09/2008 11:19:14 Originally by: Darktec Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Darktec Either way, GTC prices are INSANE atm, 500 mill is more than the 90's were going for. I hope ccp does something soon, as they said in the sticky in the Timecode forum. Why exactly should CCP do something about it? Why are high prices bad? If you can't afford one then don't buy them, prices will then drop on them if enough people can't afford them. It's supply and demand. Either there is too much demand or too little supply, or both. Its because people will just go out and buy isk to buy the gtc, and yes, i know how stupid that is, but you can get isk cheaper than one month of eve, and if say you can buy a bill for 20$, spend half on a gtc, you get 60 days for 10 bucks. thus ccp loses money. It is the players problem, but its also CCP's Boy, I just want to point out this is the most stupid thing ever said on MD seriously, you can't get your head around the fact that someone has to buy a GTC for $34.99 (price taken from evetimecode.com) to resell it for isk? Please explain to me how this lead to CCP losing money. KIA Corp Recruitment Director, mail me for more info.
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.14 15:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Lord Fitz You can't blame people for selling them high, if that's what the market will pay, it's not on the other hand the 'fellow players' that are 'paying' it, it's the isk farmers. You keep saying this, but do you have any clue what you're even talking about? You're saying the only people who buy GTC's are ISK-Farmers? Look, just because you failed capitalism 101 doesn't mean people more successful than you and can afford GTC's are ISK farmers.
Angus McSpork	Posted - 2008.09.15 06:43:00 - [44] Didn't Faction Warfare go live 2 months ago? Is it possible that this current spike is a result of ppl resubbing/creating alt accounts specifically for FW?
Eva d'Ray	Posted - 2008.09.15 10:06:00 - [45] Edited by: Eva d''Ray on 15/09/2008 10:07:54 Originally by: Angus McSpork Didn't Faction Warfare go live 2 months ago? Is it possible that this current spike is a result of ppl resubbing/creating alt accounts specifically for FW? That's one of the reasons but also we are in a recession. There are less options to choose from when then 30 and 90 day's GTC's were taken out, thus lesser choice, less competition, thus prices vary less. the reason why in shops you can always choose between 5, 10, 20 and 50 packs A lot of the 'new' players who joined in the last new_player_rushes since Emperan Age' are now savy enough experienced to make money and buy GTC's, thus more competition, thus prices go up. CCP makes GTC's accessible for every player, not restricted to players with lets say +3 months gameplay, so a bunch of alts (be it iskfarmer alts or fw alts, or mule-alts) get to buy GTCS's, more demand = higher prices.. And probably some more economical reasons (isk farmer or not, discussions about the who and what, it all comes done to economics - which makes this game so intresting :)) Etc... I wonder why the quarterly financial report is late. Perhaps our economist is to busy mining for his GTC's
Antalor Maskari	Posted - 2008.09.15 10:42:00 - [46] Personnaly I think that if CCP doesn t seem to care really about that is maybe because they are the one who profit of it. So why change anything? CCP say they ll ban RTM and isk sellers, but i don't see them doing much. Farmers still have great days for long.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.09.15 13:01:00 - [47] 1) there is massive amounts of manipulation going on eg. I post "WTS @500" 30 secs later and alt of mine posts Ill take it send to "Insert desposable alt here" (The clever bit for those that don't get it is I don't actually sell it to my alt) Then I post a new thread with a different character WTS 500. Buyer comes to market sees a WTS@500 followed by a few post "showing" that codes have "sold" for 500, thinking this is the going rate they pay it. I have tested this buy doing the reverse when codes first shot up to 400mil about a month ago and got around 6-7 in total for 300-320 mil. Someone else was using the same method at the time an also got numerous codes at 300-325 mil. This is A sellers Manipulation for 1 reason, Some Sellers live in that forum and can constantly manipulate it to maintain higher pricing. Buyers are only there to buy a code. and come and go as they get the code they want. 2) Lots of farmers were recently banned you can see this from the spike in alot of mainly "Farmer" generated Items falling in supply and increasing in price. This is wide spread across many items, and ive seen the prices of these items spike many times as farmers are banned. When Farmers are banned they set up a new account so recently there will have been a massive increase on demand for GTC's. 3) there was an natural spike in demand due to the loss of 30 day codes. Alot of people used them and they would buy 1 every month. When 30 were removed alot would have switched to 60 days meaning they only buy 1 every other month. So for a while there will be a month of higher demand and a month of lower demand. There is probably many other factors involved but these are what IMO are causing the insane prices we see today. Only way to combat it is to only buy codes that are in your price range and be patient someone will sell eventually. CCP do want "Farmers" in game they pay CCP's wage or some of it and if CCP want increased revenue all they need to do is ban a few and suddenly they will have an influx of "new" players. If they appear too harsh on "Farmers" they will move to other MMO's so they have to strike a balance between Farmers, Real Players and their profits.
21 Salvager	Posted - 2008.09.15 14:49:00 - [48] If he ever reports again, I'd love to see some analysis of the GTC market done by CCP Dr.EyjoG. Open letter to Dr. EyjoG: I think some analysis of the secure selling price of EVE Time Codes would be very interesting. Also, any suggestions for a better market for EVE Time Codes would be great, since the Timecode Bazaar forum has several major problems (can't tell price histories, can't tell if prices are real or being faked to influence the market, can't place a buy or sell order and be sure it will be filled at the best price, forum threads have to be "bumped" to the top to be seen, etc.) CCP has data on completed EVE Time Code sales, so you should be able to get some interesting graphs and analysis. Is this something you can look into for the next Economic Report or Blog? thanks, --end--
Macon Squaredealer Squaredeal Enterprises	Posted - 2008.09.15 15:02:00 - [49] People always love to assign blame for things they don't understand to manipulation and other nefarious behavior. Personally, I blame insurance as the biggest factor resulting in a decreased supply of TC's. Simply put, a large number of PvPerÆs were buying a TC once in a while, and then selling it for isk to support their PvP habit. They no longer need to do so nearly as often. The reduced supply of TCÆs available for purchase by using isk (with demand remaining the same or maybe even being higher) has resulted in higher prices. ___________________________________________ Watch for the Squaredeal Enterprises IPO in the coming months.
Gareth Thomas	Posted - 2008.09.15 16:16:00 - [50] Its due to demand for gtc's staying the same while the supply of gtc's fell. In the past $14.99 was affordable for a quick cash injection. Now we have to shove up twice the amount when we need more cash. Its no longer an easy decision to use the little RL cash you have on a game. They should bring back the $14.99 for 30 days.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.16 11:12:00 - [51] Edited by: Cergorach on 16/09/2008 11:15:27 Edited by: Cergorach on 16/09/2008 11:14:44 I tend to keep an eye on the Time code Bazaar, and a few minutes ago the demand outstripped the supply by at least a factor of six (if not more), is it any surprise that people are asking higher amounts for their wares (you would too!). If some poor fool tries to sell his GTC for 470M isk, then there's half a dozen people that pile upon that offer within two minutes. 500M isk is a 'magical' number, it's half a Billion isk, that's a lot. So many are reluctant to buy it at that price. Is it worth that amount of isk, it sure is, and much more if things keep going the way their going... I currently have two characters to support (one the first month, to other the second), and it might seem steep to pay 1B isk every two months (6B isk a year), but it really isn't for me (and i'm not even rich). I trade, I like trading, so as long as I make more money every two months then the GTCs cost, I'll keep paying any price. 6B isk saves me around 260 euro a year, that's a lot of money, money I rather spend on something else... To be honest, if demand doesn't suddenly drop (a lot) or supply doesn't increase (a lot) I expect to see treads "[WTB] 60 day GTC @ 1B isk"... I would like to note that this isn't me, but the first person offering a 60day gtc for 1B isk is here...
Nabasuko Donosor	Posted - 2008.09.16 14:18:00 - [52] I never sold GTC's before but with the actual pricing it was too tempting. Bought 4 of them and wanted to sell at 550. 10 minutes later I adapted to 500 and 10 minutes later I was sold out. This was this morning with WTB's ranging between 420 and 470. Now, 8 hours later I see WTB's of 525 and a 1B WTS. I can assure this is no alt manipulation.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.16 14:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Nabasuko Donosor I never sold GTC's before but with the actual pricing it was too tempting. Bought 4 of them and wanted to sell at 550. 10 minutes later I adapted to 500 and 10 minutes later I was sold out. This was this morning with WTB's ranging between 420 and 470. Now, 8 hours later I see WTB's of 525 and a 1B WTS. I can assure this is no alt manipulation. As far as I can tell, the "alt manipulation" theory is mostly buyers paranoia. There may have been a few occasional sellers that tried that. But most regular probably know that it does not really change the market much. Many are now saying that there are less sellers and that this is the fault of CCP failing to stop RMT, so those that want isk for their money are going to buy 1b isk for 30$ instead of selling GTCs. I disagree: I think that the regular sellers are simply observing the market very carefully and holding on because they think the real peak of this two month long wave is yet to arrive. They are probably selling one or two GTCs when they see the occasional 500-550m values going by, but they are probably hoping for those values to become regular for a few ours and try to sell in the 550-580m range. The 1b WTS I think is some buyer troll. No sane person would hope to sell for that much right now. And a market price manipulation attempt would not post a single WTS that is around 2.5x the current WTB price. Also note that I do not think that the current prices are any indication of GTC costs rising. This is just all people having 60d cards expiring at the same time around 60d past the moment the 30d were discontinued and the 60d were introduced. Really nothing strange in this. Wait mid october and you'll most probably see tons of WTS GTC for 350 being deserted by buyers.
Panzerkom Caldari	Posted - 2008.09.16 17:33:00 - [54] Ah, I think Juliette is the author of the analysis on TC Bazaar that I talked about in a previous post. Also, another thing that might be in play here is inflation. I have noticed the price of several items that I purchase on a regular basis go up by anywhere from 5~10%, although I have no solid numbers to prove this.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.16 17:42:00 - [55] Originally by: Panzerkom Ah, I think Juliette is the author of the analysis on TC Bazaar that I talked about in a previous post. Yes and no. That character is now on an inactive account. It is not abandoned, but I do use GTC expiration to set a long skill to train. I generally have one or two accounts that are "idle" training some long skill. Cumulatively saves a lot when you breed several characters at once. It was now the turn of that account, so you are not gonna see her till mid october.
Shavana Made in Canada	Posted - 2008.09.16 21:21:00 - [56] Edited by: Shavana on 16/09/2008 21:23:54 Originally by: Darktec Just to humor you for a second here. 1. How exactly do you think CCP should go about policing GTC prices and bringing them down to a level you find acceptable. 2. What is a price you find acceptable 3. What if someone else thinks your price is still too high, should CCP use your price or someone elses 1. Simple, re-introduce 90d cards again and drop the their prices to the old price 2. I remember when a 90d cost only 400m.. you tell me what YOU find acceptable! 3. Irrelavent if CCP fixes the amount of $ it costs to buy them back to the GOOD ol' days
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.16 21:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Shavana Edited by: Shavana on 16/09/2008 21:23:54 Originally by: Darktec Just to humor you for a second here. 1. How exactly do you think CCP should go about policing GTC prices and bringing them down to a level you find acceptable. 2. What is a price you find acceptable 3. What if someone else thinks your price is still too high, should CCP use your price or someone elses 1. Simple, re-introduce 90d cards again and drop the their prices to the old price 2. I remember when a 90d cost only 400m.. you tell me what YOU find acceptable! 3. Irrelavent if CCP fixes the amount of $ it costs to buy them back to the GOOD ol' days I think you will find that CCP prefers the increase in revenue stream that the new card prices bring them. Doubtful they will change anything to suit your wishes in this matter. --
schmarty pants	Posted - 2008.09.16 23:56:00 - [58] Originally by: Shavana Edited by: Shavana on 16/09/2008 21:23:54 2. I remember when a 90d cost only 400m.. you tell me what YOU find acceptable! I remember when a 100 day could be yours for 250 million. The value of isk changed since then as RMR grew with numbers on the back of the more aggressive advertising campaign to compete with the likes of WoW. It turns out (in my mind) that 90 day GTC's hit a correct pricing point of around 350 million isk, now the prices are just higher becuase most people that bought isk via GTC's are now stumped about the new $/Days ratio. I think CCP either thinks that enough new people will get sucked into EvE over the next year to watch the same amount jump out becuase they only played via relatively inexpensive GTC/Isk. Or I could be wrong and the value of isk could plummet because of this, it would be ironic to see if GTC's were controlling the market all along.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.17 06:44:00 - [59] Originally by: Shavana 1. Simple, re-introduce 90d cards again and drop the their prices to the old price
Shavana Made in Canada	Posted - 2008.09.17 15:26:00 - [60] I agree with everyone to some extent.. However, there were/are a lot of players thar have multiple accounts and cannot afford them unless paid via GTC. If all those players are forced to lose 1 or 2 accounts due to the sharp increase in GTC prices then EvE actually loses a lot of revenue because GTC are no longer in heavy demand.
Srioghal moDhream	Posted - 2008.09.17 20:06:00 - [61] Originally by: Shavana 2. I remember when a 90d cost only 400m.. you tell me what YOU find acceptable! LOL 400m you got ripped off, I paid for this game for 2 years for two accounts and never paid over 330m for a 90 day card. But now because of these prices instead of getting $15+ a month for each of my accounts CCP now only gets $11.00. True they have a guaranteed income for 12 months, but let's face it most of us will still be playing this game in 12 months any way. And I get to keep that 12+ billion isk in my pocket. Yes 12+ billion isk for 2 accounts to play with gtc's for a year. Thats ~46m isk/$ or ~$22/billion.
Ceola Tyn'Vile	Posted - 2008.09.18 15:07:00 - [62] Edited by: Ceola Tyn''Vile on 18/09/2008 15:08:04 Originally by: Shavana I agree with everyone to some extent.. However, there were/are a lot of players thar have multiple accounts and cannot afford them unless paid via GTC. If all those players are forced to lose 1 or 2 accounts due to the sharp increase in GTC prices then EvE actually loses a lot of revenue because GTC are no longer in heavy demand. So if demand for them drops what do you think will happen to the price lol. If no one buys them at 500mil the price will go down. Really all I notice is people whining that the price is going up. If it is that big of a deal why doesn't he buy some GTC's and sell them for what he sees as the "right" price. edit implicated the thread op as whining, but this is the different thread :)
Punctator	Posted - 2008.09.18 21:49:00 - [63] this is only my opinion about why gtc prices are so high it is because of ultimate bots and people who use it are destroying eve online. sometimes ago someone stolen some client code and i belive russian or chines wrote bots who can make missions and make impossible fraction standings... Look on local - you will see person who play 1 month and have 10.0 with caldari state and amar. it is impossible to make such standing in one month for normal player, and how many new characters have that high stands... many... many with noob ships, iteons, badgers - you kill them and thay always return. eve online is dying in my opinion. for those players GTC prices are doesnt matter, because they do notheing to earn this money. Meybye we will see 2b for 60 day for two months. i dont know, but eve without good market is not fun and i think i will stop playing eve befour 2 months. all gtc traders should stop sell gtc - isk does not have currency value - but not all players know about that.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.18 22:58:00 - [64] Originally by: Punctator it is impossible to make such standing in one month for normal player Not really, you just dont know the "trick". If you spend 4-6hrs a day running missions for a transport agent, you can get these sort of standings. --
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.09.19 02:31:00 - [65] Originally by: Shavana 2. I remember when a 90d cost only 400m.. you tell me what YOU find acceptable! I find whatever price the market will bare to be acceptable, I gather you think the market needs to be manipulated or controlled, thus it is you who must give a set number as to what is/isn't acceptable to you. You then must tell us if this number must be the number that is used for everyone else as well. What if someone else says your number is way too high and not reasonable and they want it to be half your number. Who is right, you or this other person. Thus the problem with arbitrary prices that any one person dreams up. The only price that will ever work is the price that the market will bare. You are free to not buy them if this angers you. You are free to quit EVE if you can't afford to play without GTC's. This will then reduce the demand for GTC's as more people quit, making them GTC's more affordable for thus who still play. We will be sure to thank you for quitting and leaving us with cheaper prices. Either way. I don't really care if I pay 400 mil or 2 bil per gtc. I can afford GTC's for the rest of my life on all my accounts no matter what the price goes to. If you can't then that's your problem, not mine nor anyone elses here..
Punctator	Posted - 2008.09.19 09:48:00 - [66] i know all legal tricks. sometimes i spent 10h makeing missions and i make lot of transport missions too, lot of lev 4 with good social too. it is impossible to make 10.0 standings in one month character who plays only 1 month, because that characters dont have learning skills, dont have social skills, and some expensive skill in social. If some group of mission runners will help that person, than maybye it is possible, but scale is to big to belive in that. how many transport missions can you make in 6h? Sometimes in transport missions are mining and clound harvest missions too. So if you reject that mission you neet to wait some time to rejest next mission if you are not lucky. How many missions and storys you need to make on lev 1 mission to have 10.0 fraction standing... i think thousends, and if you make 60 in 6h (1 missions 6 min but it is impossible)... use calculator. so if this reality i am saying is right macrominers and bots - this is the best player in eve and it is sort of funny. Try to talk to someone who is bot? Nobody answer, or auto rejest mode is on. All big alliances without bot supply cant even make money for supply thousent of their player owned structures, because ice mined by true players should cost 4-10x more then now i think. If ccp dont change anythink we will have in eve pure titan fleets and where is fun? so future eve are for bots? if yes make it legal and give bot software on eve site ore build options in eve client, but then normal players run from the world of eve and it is sad, because all this players like eve and want to play but no in world where bot players are so powerfull. and if this reality i am saying is not right please tell me why only 18k players are on server - sometimes ago there was 40k players day by day.
21 Salvager	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Punctator please tell me why only 18k players are on server - sometimes ago there was 40k players day by day. There were 31,872 players on-line at the peak yesterday. See http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility Also, can you give some examples of these odd-looking characters with 10.0 faction standing? I haven't really looked, but I haven't seen any.
Punctator	Posted - 2008.09.19 13:41:00 - [68] sorry i dont make lists of bots on eve but i have on local somethink like that. check "uuendcall" - she play 18 days and have 3.63 to gallente federation - she is for me pretending to be bot. dont answer to invite, operate in low sec in shuttle or iteon mark IV. i fly behing her in ceptor and wath. always she has lag befour gate jump or undock station, always the same, go to low sec and watch cerfully. i dont know what stad she will have after one month... lets watch it xD.
Scoutsy Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.20 01:34:00 - [69] Originally by: c4 t Edited by: c4 t on 09/09/2008 19:32:50 i dont follow gtc prices very much but i know just a few months ago they were at 400m for a 60 day code. it seems like the supply is really not meeting the demand at this point in time. im curious why, anybody have any ideas? Maybe the supply problem is because so many of us are struggling with increasing costs in RL? I'm flabbergasted at the amount of whingeing and whining going on - if you don't like the prices don't pay them. If you really want to moan about something move to the UK and buy some petrol (that's gas for our US friends) or try pay your electricity or gas bill. Now THAT'S something to moan about....
Deakka Caldari SofaNinja Industries	Posted - 2008.09.22 07:14:00 - [70] Edited by: Deakka on 22/09/2008 07:15:04 Edited by: Deakka on 22/09/2008 07:14:14 I think it more has to do with it now being easier to make money in EVE. Consider that 5 years ago, having 100 M was a real achievement. I know thats a long time ago, but I think that in a few months the prices of GTC's will have gone up again. Better missions, better modules to mine, better trade establishment, as the mechanics improve and players can make money in better ways through game advancement there is more money to be spend and the prices rise. Inflation =) As for the issue of GTC's being able to bought with isk.. Essentially, as other people stated here, ISK is being bought with real-life currency, through GTC's. Even tho I am a happy user of these GTC's myself, I do have to be honest and note that it defies most game standards. As I do not find it normal that people are able to buy themselves 'better' in a game, means that your real-life situation in a way can improve your position in the game, so long for equal chances.
Haseda	Posted - 2008.09.22 09:10:00 - [71] Originally by: Deakka I do have to be honest and note that it defies most game standards. As I do not find it normal that people are able to buy themselves 'better' in a game, means that your real-life situation in a way can improve your position in the game, so long for equal chances. Supposedly it is a way for casual gamer to make it up to someone who spends a lot of hours playing the game. Unfortunately people abuse the system and buy ISK simply whenever they want to. I have no problems with a guy who plays <10 hours a week selling a code or two to pvp on the weekends. I do have a problem with people who use game time codes to buy way more ISK than they could have earned playing the game themselves.
21 Salvager	Posted - 2008.09.22 10:56:00 - [72] Reply to GTC prices and amount sold: Needs analysis by Dr. EyjoG if you want some real analysis.
Marketman	Posted - 2008.09.22 12:38:00 - [73] Edited by: Marketman on 22/09/2008 12:43:51 As a long time seller of GTC's ( I cant stand ratting or mission running) I dont really see what the problem is here.. I have a commodity to sell and I sell at the highest price I feel it can achieve. Buyers are also selling a commodity, their time spent making the isk, they also want to achieve the best return possible Last week GTC's were selling at 600-650 during the day, by the time I logged into the Eve website they were still selling at 580- I went slightly under and sold at 550 for a quick sale and achieved it quickly. Today when I went onto the website they were selling for 530-550, as I had some time I put up at 600, one sold at that price when no-one else was around, as other traders came on-line I reduced my prices to stay competitive. the last ones sold at 525. If thats what the market will bear I , and any other GTC trader, would be an idiot to deliberatly sell for less. If a buyer doesnt think their time is worth paying that much then dont buy the GTC when prices are high. it is still possible when lots of sellers are online to get a GTC for @ 450-480 Demand is outstripping supply at the moment and it is a sellers market- Often the people pushing the prices up are not the want to sell orders, but the want to buy, desperate to get a GTC they high bid all others on the forum thats called basic economics, even a dumbass like me knows that
Mass Extinction	Posted - 2008.09.24 13:56:00 - [74] Originally by: Treelox Now you see thats the funny thing, GTC's are "worth" exactly what people will pay for them. Not what you wish you could pay for them. A perfect example of a free market in action. And a perfect example of why free markets dont work for anyone but the seller.
Slinkus Gallentus Gallente Infinite Order	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:30:00 - [75] It just occurred to me that we can ruin this overinflated market given enough players. You accept an invitation to buy a code, but dont complete the deal. I believe the deal can be there for 48 hours unless it is accepted or cancelled. This would put the greedy's time codes on hold for up to 48 hours. At the end of the 48 hours they get no sale. Sellers would be left with the time code that they have already paid for and it would soon become a burden for them to try and off-load. This would take a co-ordinated effort, but in principle it would work. I might even start a website with this in mind if I get enough support. cheers "Life is not one big joke. Life is 40,000 little jokes all lined up"
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:39:00 - [76] Originally by: Mass Extinction Originally by: Treelox Now you see thats the funny thing, GTC's are "worth" exactly what people will pay for them. Not what you wish you could pay for them. A perfect example of a free market in action. And a perfect example of why free markets dont work for anyone but the seller. Huh? How do you work that out? If the prices were forced down by CCP, fewer people would want to sell and more people would want to buy. You'd end up with a situation like Russia before Perestroika, where people had to queue for days for basic goods because demand outstripped supply. The GTCs just wouldn't be there for people to buy. Worst of all, you would create a "non-secure" black market where people sold GTCs for what people who really wanted them would be willing to play and the scammers would be back. Prices balance to a level where there are enough buyers willing to pay a given price for whatever volume of goods are available.
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus You accept an invitation to buy a code, but dont complete the deal. I believe the deal can be there for 48 hours unless it is accepted or cancelled. This would put the greedy's time codes on hold for up to 48 hours. At the end of the 48 hours they get no sale. Sellers would be left with the time code that they have already paid for and it would soon become a burden for them to try and off-load. Sellers can cancel the offer anytime they want. If they haven't been taken up in 15 or 20 mins, that's usually what they do and sell to someone else.
Mass Extinction	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:43:00 - [78] That's absolute nonsense and not supported by history. When there was not a monopolised product, ie. when you could buy either 30 or 90 day GTC, there was no shortage of GTC sellers. I suggest you do Economics 101 before you post again.
Mass Extinction	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:46:00 - [79] Originally by: Kitchie Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus You accept an invitation to buy a code, but dont complete the deal. I believe the deal can be there for 48 hours unless it is accepted or cancelled. This would put the greedy's time codes on hold for up to 48 hours. At the end of the 48 hours they get no sale. Sellers would be left with the time code that they have already paid for and it would soon become a burden for them to try and off-load. Sellers can cancel the offer anytime they want. If they haven't been taken up in 15 or 20 mins, that's usually what they do and sell to someone else. Here's the rub. Will they get a proper sale or someone who is just holding them up again?
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:50:00 - [80] Edited by: Kitchie on 24/09/2008 15:54:01 Originally by: Mass Extinction That's absolute nonsense and not supported by history. When there was not a monopolised product, ie. when you could buy either 30 or 90 day GTC, there was no shortage of GTC sellers. I suggest you do Economics 101 before you post again. Who has this Monopoly? From what I see there are hundreds of different sellers. CCP don't set any ISK price on GTCs, it's purely up to the sellers. If it's a cartel, you could break it by buying 100s of GTCs and selling them cheap. Think of it, you could end this "Monopoly"! One of the benefits of the secure system is that you can't resell GTCs bought for ISK, they're automatically added as gametime to your account so market manipulation by buying cheap, selling high doesn't work.
Mass Extinction	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Kitchie Originally by: Mass Extinction That's absolute nonsense and not supported by history. When there was not a monopolised product, ie. when you could buy either 30 or 90 day GTC, there was no shortage of GTC sellers. I suggest you do Economics 101 before you post again. Who has this Monopoly? From what I see there are hundreds of different sellers. CCP don't set any ISK price on GTCs, it's purely up to the sellers. If it's a cartel, you could break it by buying 100s of GTCs and selling them cheap. Think of it, you could break this "Monopoly"! It's a monopolised PRODUCT. ie. there is no alternative product to buy. Maybe you should do Comprehension 101 too.
Kitchie Gallente Kitchie's Logistics and Marketing Corp	Posted - 2008.09.24 15:57:00 - [82] So tell me, who is it who has this monopoly and is reaping the benefits of the higher prices? Makes no difference to CCP, they get the same amount whether bought by a player for his own time or a GTC seller. According to you, someone has engineered a monopoly in order to get a higher selling price. I still can't see who it is you're referring to.
Juliette Leblanc Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:08:00 - [83] Originally by: Mass Extinction Originally by: Kitchie Originally by: Slinkus Gallentus You accept an invitation to buy a code, but dont complete the deal. I believe the deal can be there for 48 hours unless it is accepted or cancelled. This would put the greedy's time codes on hold for up to 48 hours. At the end of the 48 hours they get no sale. Sellers would be left with the time code that they have already paid for and it would soon become a burden for them to try and off-load. Sellers can cancel the offer anytime they want. If they haven't been taken up in 15 or 20 mins, that's usually what they do and sell to someone else. Here's the rub. Will they get a proper sale or someone who is just holding them up again? It may work against some of the occasional sellers. **** them off and basically make them stop selling. Reduces the number of sellers, therefore unbalancing the market more. In the end it will push prices up. It would not work against any of the regular sellers. A regular seller knows the market and knows how to take advantage of it with no need for manipulation of any kind. And will avoid those manipulations too. Here's how it works for a regular trader: - he keeps a stock of 5 to 10 GTCs, restocking when needed. - he sells GTCs for ISK during market highs (and purchases GTCs for ISKs for his own accounts during market lows). - he sells only a handful of codes during each "high" in order not to flood the market. - he plans for the long term: rising a given amount of ISKs by selling GTCs over a period of several quarters or even multiple years. - he does his homework: whenever an offer is not accepted in a reasonable time he researches the poster character finding out his alts and eventually his friends, and just put them on his "black list" not offering them any more GTC ever
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.24 16:33:00 - [84] Edited by: Tasko Pal on 24/09/2008 16:34:15 Originally by: Mass Extinction It's a monopolised PRODUCT. ie. there is no alternative product to buy. Maybe you should do Comprehension 101 too. It's not a reading comprehension problem here. Technically, if one restricts one's point of view to in game only, there is a monopolist since CCP ultimately is the source of GTCs, whether it be one flavor of GTC or several. But a wider perspective shows that CCP has to compete with other games and hence isn't a true monopoly when you consider the larger RL market out there. And it's clear that the GTC market is not a monopoly since there are many people selling GTCs and it's not hard to become a GTC seller (just use your credit card). Second, a monopolized product is a product produced by a monopoly (especially used when compared to the same product in a hypothetical competitive market), not a product with no substitute goods.
Kera Delacour Royal Black Watch Highlanders	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:41:00 - [85] Edited by: Kera Delacour on 26/09/2008 12:45:35 Edited by: Kera Delacour on 26/09/2008 12:42:39 all I know is that for over a year now I have paid for my 2nd account with isk. I won't be doing that any more at current prices. Used to be you could get 30d for 150m, 90 for about 380m. Now it's 400+m/60 and that, to me, just isn't worth it. I've switched my 2nd acct back over to credit card and am eriously considering selling my alt and just canceling my 2nd acct. EVE just isn't worth all this hassle. And the 60d cards just aren't worth 400m isk. That's 200m/month. Not to mention CCP is charging $35/card which is 17.50/month which is highway robbery imo. To be honest I'm surprised more players aren't screaming about the underlying price of the GTC's. It's a blatantly obvious money grab by CCP.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.26 12:53:00 - [86] I'm all for people that will stop buying GTCs with isk, that just means less demand, lower prices for those that do want to buy GTCs for isk ;-)
Khryesiis	Posted - 2008.09.27 12:07:00 - [87] Considering there is a worldspread financial crisis going around right now, I imagine that a lot of people who were previously buying GTC's for real money and selling them for ISK just might use that money on something else right now. In addition to that, some people who spend a lot of time in the game might be reluctant to spend real money on the monthly fee and prefer saved up ISK. This would explain a fall of supply and a rise of demand.
Enihcam Xes	Posted - 2008.09.27 22:32:00 - [88] Originally by: Kera Delacour Edited by: Kera Delacour on 26/09/2008 12:46:06 all I know is that for over a year now I have paid for my 2nd account with isk. I won't be doing that any more at current prices. Used to be you could get 30d for 150m, 90 for about 380m. Now it's 400+m/60 and that, to me, just isn't worth it. I've switched my 2nd acct back over to credit card and am seriously considering selling my alt and just canceling my 2nd acct. EVE just isn't worth all this hassle. And the 60d cards just aren't worth 400m isk. That's 200m/month. Not to mention CCP is charging $35/card which is 17.50/month which is highway robbery imo. To be honest I'm surprised more players aren't screaming about the underlying price of the GTC's. It's a blatantly obvious money grab by CCP. As has been discussed extensively when the changeover occured, CCP is not trying to gouge their market for an extra $2.50/mo. They are trying to avoid loses as they have an extensive international (European) playerbase and the American dollar has been tanking for a while. Maybe they should just sell GTCs in pounds or euros and then us Americans would really have something to wine about.
Enihcam Xes	Posted - 2008.09.27 22:39:00 - [89] If you can't afford to pay for your alts with Isk right now there is a pretty awesome "power of two" deal going on. What I really love about this price explosion is that it places a pretty heavy burden on small time traders that just focus on making enough to cover accounts. Now more people need to either trade off their main account and thus split their game time for trading or they have to make considerably more isk just to break even. Once more small traders burn out trying to raise 600-800m just to play the game competition will relax and market conditions may become more favorable. This is why I'm switching to a trash everything policy on a good number of items .
Taram Caldar Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.28 12:45:00 - [90] Originally by: Enihcam Xes Originally by: Kera Delacour Edited by: Kera Delacour on 26/09/2008 12:46:06 all I know is that for over a year now I have paid for my 2nd account with isk. I won't be doing that any more at current prices. Used to be you could get 30d for 150m, 90 for about 380m. Now it's 400+m/60 and that, to me, just isn't worth it. I've switched my 2nd acct back over to credit card and am seriously considering selling my alt and just canceling my 2nd acct. EVE just isn't worth all this hassle. And the 60d cards just aren't worth 400m isk. That's 200m/month. Not to mention CCP is charging $35/card which is 17.50/month which is highway robbery imo. To be honest I'm surprised more players aren't screaming about the underlying price of the GTC's. It's a blatantly obvious money grab by CCP. As has been discussed extensively when the changeover occured, CCP is not trying to gouge their market for an extra $2.50/mo. They are trying to avoid loses as they have an extensive international (European) playerbase and the American dollar has been tanking for a while. Maybe they should just sell GTCs in pounds or euros and then us Americans would really have something to wine about. Doesn't matter what currency they charge in. If CCP can't charge consistantly with other games in the Genre they will lose players. EVE is a decent enough game but it's not really better than most other major MMO's out there. When the price starts going up players will vote with their wallets. CCP is making a mistake with these 60d GTC's. As evidence? Most of the folks I know who have multiple accounts are letting their extra accounts lapse or switching them over to monthly credit card accounts. No matter how CCP slices it they're going to wind up losing money. The ISK prices for GTC's now are insane (500m????) and the currency prices for GTC's aren't worth it either. Right now I, like others, am planning to switch my 2nd account to a monthly credit card plan and only activate it when I need to train a new skill set, allowing it to lapse and set long skills at the end of each 30 day period, thus reducing how much CCP is getting from me by more than 50%. If the price of monthly fees goes up? Both my accounts will be cancelled. CCP is making a mistake here. The MMO market needs to re-evaluate it's prices given economic times. Raising prices when people have less ready cash is 100% the wrong direction to be going. Keep them the same and/or find ways to give players more economical ways to play is the way to go. GTC sales for REASONABLE ammts of isk are really the best way. Allowing GTC isk prices to spiral out of this world only guarantees one thing: Less income in the long run no matter how much they charge for them in currency.
Enihcam Xes	Posted - 2008.09.28 15:44:00 - [91] Edited by: Enihcam Xes on 28/09/2008 15:45:52 Originally by: Taram Caldar Doesn't matter what currency they charge in. If CCP can't charge consistantly with other games in the Genre they will lose players. EVE is a decent enough game but it's not really better than most other major MMO's out there. When the price starts going up players will vote with their wallets. CCP is making a mistake with these 60d GTC's. As evidence? Most of the folks I know who have multiple accounts are letting their extra accounts lapse or switching them over to monthly credit card accounts. No matter how CCP slices it they're going to wind up losing money. The ISK prices for GTC's now are insane (500m????) and the currency prices for GTC's aren't worth it either. Right now I, like others, am planning to switch my 2nd account to a monthly credit card plan and only activate it when I need to train a new skill set, allowing it to lapse and set long skills at the end of each 30 day period, thus reducing how much CCP is getting from me by more than 50%. If the price of monthly fees goes up? Both my accounts will be cancelled. CCP is making a mistake here. The MMO market needs to re-evaluate it's prices given economic times. Raising prices when people have less ready cash is 100% the wrong direction to be going. Keep them the same and/or find ways to give players more economical ways to play is the way to go. GTC sales for REASONABLE ammts of isk are really the best way. Allowing GTC isk prices to spiral out of this world only guarantees one thing: Less income in the long run no matter how much they charge for them in currency. Again, CCP is not doing this to charge you MORE money. You are free to continue paying $15 a monthby credit card just like you could before. They are doing this because they do not want to charge European players LESS money by allowing them to exploit the currently weak value of the dollar. GTC sales are a very small percent of CCPs total revenue stream. CCP does not in any way set the trade price of a GTC. GTC sellers determine price based on how much they think they can get for them. The extra $2.50 on the per month price of GTC time really is negligable to the people who have $350 to spend on a little extra isk for a month. Why should CCP step in and charge players less just because there are now more people who want to play the game for free? Honestly though, if CCP dropped the price of a GTC by $5 I really doubt we'd see much of a change in prices on the forums. Most people who arn't paying $35 now wouldn't pay $30 either. And for those people with multiple accounts they can fund BOTH of those accounts for $50. CCP is charging them less right now. They have done something about their prices in the face of a weak economy. What they did is just not something that makes it easier for you to play for free, a price which is not in line with the prices of the other MMOs.
Voltron Fury	Posted - 2008.09.29 05:26:00 - [92] The price was quite reasonable in the past. Now it's VERY expensive. I personally have 4 accounts and I might have to cut one or two of them .. to reduce the isk burden i have to manage now. CCP the GTC prices are like a slap on the face. Dont let the greed ruin you or eve.
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.09.29 07:03:00 - [93] Originally by: Voltron Fury CCP the GTC prices are like a slap on the face. Dont let the greed ruin you or eve. You silly man... CCP doesnt set the GTC to ISK price, your fellow player does. The isk price of GTC really has nothing to do with CCP's greed or lack of. Blame your fellow player, not CCP. That said, I look forward to the price increasing even higher. --
Bloody Rabbit Jita Miners	Posted - 2008.09.29 16:42:00 - [94] Originally by: Treelox CCP doesnt set the GTC to ISK price, your fellow player does. The isk price of GTC really has nothing to do with CCP's greed or lack of. Blame your fellow player, not CCP. That said, I look forward to the price increasing even higher. I'm looking forward to the increase as well but it will help me with my building and research profits. Less alts means less competition and more isk for my research/building corp. Originally by: Shadarle I notice a lot of people who are very bad at playing the market tend to want CCP to step in and remove the competition from the market so they don't continue coming in last place.[/qu
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.01 02:40:00 - [95] Originally by: Darktec Its because people will just go out and buy isk to buy the gtc, and yes, i know how stupid that is, but you can get isk cheaper than one month of eve, and if say you can buy a bill for 20$, spend half on a gtc, you get 60 days for 10 bucks. thus ccp loses money. It is the players problem, but its also CCP's Ccp doesnt lose money. Someone somewhere is paying for that gtc. The source of the isk can come from wherever it doesnt matter. Now if you buy isk... that's against eula and when they eventually catch the isk seller... they trace all the transactions and you get royally screwed eventually. Go out 0.0 and mine or do missions. Good enough. When the annoucement that they are doing away with 30-90 gtcs... I bought a couple 90s and a 30s. So I'm coming up to where I need to start looking at what I'm going to do. If the gtcs dont drop to around 300mil or so... considering that the price to play eve itself has risen 60days isnt exactly 90days and they were less than 300mil.. so I wont be buying any for isk. Many people will also be the same way. Meaning far less people ready to pay for gtcs and perhaps demand drops off and because of the high price supply rises. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"
Adeena Torcfist Caldari Dark Underground Forces Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.06 00:43:00 - [96] im in the same boat, i think the GTC prices are getting way out of whack. so i guess ill be paying with my hard earned cash, than in game ISK. I know what my limit is, & what im im willing to spend. 500 mill ( 100 mill more, & 30 days less ), well, it can stay that high. With any luck, ppl will start buying with real money, & all these GTC's the sellers cant shift, will eventually fall.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.10.06 06:53:00 - [97] I love this new GTC price. Thats all I gotta say "The Amarr are the tanking and ganking floating rods of ~~gold~~crap"
Kaya Mitra	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:08:00 - [98] this situation won't ever really be resolved because: High GTC/isk ratios encourages more people to buy GTC's to sell, at a certain price the RLM/isk ratio becomes attractive enough to trade just as a low isk/GTC ratio will discourage sales, principally i think most GTC's are sold to fund either expensive PVP habits from people who don't have a lot of time to grind isk, or to do major corp expenditure like caps, pos's and other money sinks. Prices go up because of demand, more people are prepared to trade and the orders get filled so prices stabilise. less demand (by market manipulation or as a poster suggested fake buying scams) will simply discourage honest GTC sellers from participating, therefore the supply of GTCs will go down and prices will go up. Secondarily a lot of people whine about isk/GTC ratio but TBH look at the cost of most "must have" faction fittings, people with access to good plexes get good loot drops that most empire players will never get. such windfalls can easily be worth hundreds of millions of isk, with a single shield hardener being the equiv of 1 60 day GTC yet we don't have a endless whine from empire players complaining about the monopoly on faction loot? For many empire players the only way to generate billions of isk needed for comparable ship fitouts is to trade a GTC and buy on contract, thats not buying advantage its simply levelling the playing field against players who have locked down valuable resource areas of the game. Since most of the isk bought with GTC's is simply sunk back into the markets how can you say this is bad for the game? someone sells a GTC for 500M then buys a faction item for 500M and some other player gets that 500M benefit, lets say the seller was a hardcore mission runner and sells his faction loot to buy a GTC, in such cases the GTC isk is actually creating new buyers for stuff other mission runners probably wouldnt pay 500M for simply because they can get the stuff for nothing. You can no more say what is a "fair price" for a GTC than for a certain game item, since supply and demand control both, as much price manipulation goes on in game by virtue of specific groups being able to lock down through force valuable resource generators, this is no different than RL GTC sellers trying to push up GTC prices since you are both trying to extract maximum value for something you have access to that the next guy doesnt. After all if we transpose the cost of a titan at some 90BN plus isk, and another huge chunk for fitments, a titan would cost over 200 GTC's - $7,000 (maybe 10K fitted) in GTC isk ratios. is that good value? you can buy a real life car for that.... if you capped GTC/isk prices at a artifical level you will simply reduce the amount of people who think its worth the RLM, also that suggestion to create a way to disrupt the GTC market will simply serve to stop people selling GTC's and having their timewasted in such a way.
Brock Nelson Caldari Flux Technologies Inc	Posted - 2008.10.06 15:10:00 - [99] The situation can't be resolved because you can't control supply and demand. Period. Now move on and leave this thread in the dark corner where it belongs. Drones \| Rigs \| Ships BPO and BPC
zathras1	Posted - 2008.10.07 13:22:00 - [100] I predict GTC prices could reach and stabilize at 600mil/60d I got this from a quick calculation linking character auctions and training time. A good learning character learn about 2100sp/hr (Achura, implants etc.) At the moment character auctions seems to be going for 200mil isk / 1mil sp So you get 200mil isk / 1mil sp * 2100sp/hr = 604.8 mil is / 60d If the GTC prices are less then that it is worth buying them to train up a character to sell on auction. If the GTC prices are more than that then it is worth buying a character for isk rather then training one up. Also character prices will rise due this demand so the above numbers would change. Just my 2 isk, but I bet is is about right, within the 10/20% profit margin of GTC/character traders.
Sky Blazer	Posted - 2008.10.08 04:42:00 - [101] Characters are usually sold at a significant ISK loss. It usually costs more in GTCs training a character than to buy it. Also there's a transfer fee involved with selling a character. Which further kills the profit margin. In addition to that. Training a character for a couple of months takes time. Buying skill books, buying implants, changing all those skills. Staying up late at night because one of those skills is due to finish. Training up characters and selling can make some profit, but you need to really be focused with the training and do lots of research beforehand. For most people it isn't worth all the effort. Selling a GTC is a much easier way to get ISK, and probably more time effective. You need to spend real life money anyway on the transfer fee if you're intending to sell. So it's not real dollar cost free method of making ISK.
Brother Papalazaru Amarr International House of PWNCakes	Posted - 2008.11.05 13:21:00 - [102] I was selling GTC's up until a few months ago. Then the credit crunch hit and the pound sterling dropped significantly against the dollar. It's costing a lot more money to play Eve now and the GTC's are aso prohibitively expensive. 600 mil is a hell of a lot of grinding for a GTC. I run out of timecode tomorrow.....haven't been able to afford a GTC this month so I'll just be letting it run down and I'll go offline for a month. Play something else... That means I won't be buying/replacing any mods and ships. Which means someone's sales will go down, if only slightly. Strange to think that RL money woes can bleed into a game eh?
General Exception	Posted - 2008.11.06 19:23:00 - [103] Originally by: Shar Tegral I've actually had to report a few "false" sales. I.e. "!" Seller puts up GTC for 500 and some unknown accepts that. Set up a series of these and you have a trend of market manipulation. The only solution, refuse to pay more than what you think and let supply increase. That'll fix the market, you don't have to buy gtc's after all.
Ackaroth Plundering Penguins Anarchy.	Posted - 2008.11.06 22:27:00 - [104] Originally by: Gothica Goth One reason there can be spikes in GTC prices is the change from 30 day to 60 day codes. Assuming buyers were spread evenly, one month after the 60s were introduced there would be lower demand, the next higher and so forth till things even out. That's a really good point I hadn't thought of. +rep Plundering Penguins is recruiting PVP pilots. See Recruitment Thread for details.

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