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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
70
   |
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Patri Andari wrote:
Actually this thread is about TD's affecting missiles. My proposed suggested counters were just that. Unrefined, knee jerk suggestions. Almost the same as CCP deciding to make this change in the first place. Somehow only two people did not get that. You are one of them.
I don't mind not following the direction you hope the thread will take. If you wish to make unrefined knee jerk suggestions expect people to discuss the implications of said suggestions. If you want people to discuss only what you want them to discuss then it is 100% your fault for splitting the focus of the thread between a CCP critique and a knee jerk suggestion.
The only one splitting the focus is you. Bravo! Well done.
Now back to a discussion about tracking dirupters affecting missiles. I certainly hope no one else is confused by my evil powers of confusion.
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Sinigr Shadowsong
Imperial Guardians
The Aurora Shadow
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 05:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
TD affecting missiles + approaching Drake nerf + potential 100ab Tengu nerfs (it's not matari so it will be nerfed sooner or later) will lead us to complete extinction of missiles in PvP enviroment. Caldari will become at level of Gallente but without caps/supers and without T2 frigs (lol Craptor/Harpy).
Also some rats use TD, if I recall right it's those who use Em/TM damage that might become realy hard to tank on new weakened Drake for new players and should be damaged by EM/TM (even profile Kinectic damage in missile boats is weak compared to gun ships).
Missiles are already weak with too much limitations. GL trying to kill even a Rifter with cruise missiles (even funnier with torps) while it will be insta-popped with Artis at 100+km. |
Stabs McShiv
MINUS4
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 13:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
Rockets = Fine after the last buff no problems with rockets at all
Standards = Crap on smaller hulls needs a buff to range and fitting probably fixed via tiercide
Assaults = Downright awesome for some anti tackle work needs buff to fitting probably fixed via tiercide
Heavy = Great no problems at all one of the best weapons systems in the game
Heavy assault = Great no problems at all one of the best weapons systems in the game. Tiercide will probably fix them for calamari cruisers
Cruise = Crap for pvp really needs a look at. Maybe a massive velocity bonus with a flight time nerf might do the trick.
Torps = works fine with the stealth bombers due to bona. Works great in a small gang when you have webs and target painters or if you catch a large sig target. Torp phoon anyone? Crappy in large fleets due to flight time. Probably working as intended.
Capital Missiles work great on structures the levi is a pos popping beast . Not so good on moving targets might help to have a capital web or some mass addition module to help them a cap really should not be able to speed tank a seiged phoenix.
Target painters and webs both aid missile users as they do turret users also missile users can exploit their speed while approaching a target to get large dps gains.
I would wait for the next expansion before crying for buffs to the weapon system by the sounds of it a lot of caldari hulls will be getting boosts with tiercide.
I am still a little pissed that i can no longer bookmark a missile as it leaves the tube and warp into face melt range (was absolutely hilarious fun) but i guess they made the right call with that one.
A td effecting missiles? meh a new module would be better they can already be shot down with smart bombs and defenders if your feeling crazy. Buffing defenders would be a better option then you can have defender wars whoever has the most launchers gets to apply the dps! think of the lag we could make! |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 17:26:00 -
[34] - Quote
wow, there i am not looking at the forum for a day and i come back to a full frontal shitstorm. ok let me clarify my point
firstly, i have made two assumptions
1. if the change goes live, tracking disruptors will debuff missile flight time and/or missile velocity and/or explosion radius and/or explosion velocity. other debuffs (such as missiles 'missing' the target) might be considered but i don't regard them as probable
2. accordingly, the suggested buff to tracking enhancers would make them affect the same stats
now, assuming my assumptions are true, the tracking disruptor change would only affect small scale pvp situations (as in one drake versus one cane or somesuch) and only if one side has a tracking disruptor and the other one a missile boat (as well as the occasional mission runner who flies cnr or golem against sansha)
the assumed 'counterbuff' to tracking enhancers/computers on the other hand would increase the applied damage of missiles in almost all situations, (namely missions, plexes, rat belts, incursions, small scale pvp, blob pvp AND sleeper sites)
so, if the 'counterbuff' was introduced together with the actual tracking disruptor buff, missile boats would end up having a significant advantage in almost all situations, which in my opinion is not justified with regard to the current state of game balance. |
Vircomore Amilupar
Solenus Directive
Rieos Coalition
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 20:06:00 -
[35] - Quote
As someone who primarily runs missions - I can fully agree to both the ideas. For the longest time, Tracking Computers have been a fitting REQUIREMENT at least for laser BSs, and even then the perma-TDing Blood Raiders still cripple our ability to shoot anything.
It's about time the missle boats have to sit and suffer while waiting for their drones to kill off the TDing rats. |
Noisrevbus
109
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 20:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm pretty ambivalent to the whole thing, wether the change would be singlehandedly negative or not.
It does however reek of the typical poor judgement and sweeping band-aid approach we've seen far too much of lately. It's an attempt at adressing a very isolated issue of a single weapon-class, on specific ships under extreme circumstances.
Those particulars just happen to be quite popular due to larger environmental mechanics (which is what they should adress, instead of patching around it). As others have mentioned, there are larger implications as well for how the different systems are balanced and unique.
So, from a pure theoretical design-perspective, this is as pants-on as usual.
Wether the patch would be positive relief to current trend, i'll leave unsaid. I wouldn't mind a more unified way to deal with both upsized turrets and missiles at once, for my personal entertainment. The method is as poor as ever as a lasting implementation though. |
Andrea Griffin
203
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Kolya Medz wrote:ughh more homoginizing...? Lets change the name to "Weapon Disruption Unit I" while we're at it. This is exactly how I view the change. It's really quite ridiculous.
Just what we need - a more stale, homogenized, predictable combat environment. Snore. This seems to be the direction that Eve is being pulled toward lately and I'm not excited about that.
What ever happened to the rock / paper / scissors style of game design?
With this change interceptors will be utterly invincible to missiles.
CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
282
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:07:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vircomore Amilupar wrote:As someone who primarily runs missions - I can fully agree to both the ideas. For the longest time, Tracking Computers have been a fitting REQUIREMENT at least for laser BSs, and even then the perma-TDing Blood Raiders still cripple our ability to shoot anything.
It's about time the missle boats have to sit and suffer while waiting for their drones to kill off the TDing rats.
Let's take it one step further. Why are guns getting away with being able to function without gun rigs? Missile ships of all stripes need rigors, flares, bay thrusters, cache partitions, etc. to perform on the same level. Furthermore, how tragic is it that guns can 1-shot frigates while they mwd in at range where even heavy missiles need 2-3 volleys to do the same job? Guns charges should have explosive radii and velocity too, surely.
I don't remember the last time I had to use my drones flying a nightmare, vargur, paladin, or macharial. If we want equity, we'll need to make sure every battleship is wholly reliant on drones as much as a torp golem. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
76
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Trying to rebalance by making things more of the same is always the lazy solution and always hurts the game.
Instead of making tracking-disruptors affect missiles, how about a new 'Goalkeeper' module that shoots down a missile every few seconds. In effect it does the same as a tracking disruptor for reducing damage offset by range, but it also prevents tracking disruptors to become like when the majority of ships were flying around with a single ECM module: a 'must-have' win-button.
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Soporo
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 21:16:00 -
[40] - Quote
If true, what it reeks of is pure incompetence.
Devs who, for some reason, want to nerf (again) every missile weapon in the game. I sure wish they would clearly state their rationalle behind it.
Cruise arent used for PvP, Torps require idiotically high ship bonuses + multiple painters + rigs to work halfway decent (and totally forget using Rage), despite what deluded LargeNumber!EFT'ers might say, the others seem mostly ballanced. But missiles need another nerf?
TrollolOl!
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- H.L. Mencken |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal
Terran Commonwealth
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 22:20:00 -
[41] - Quote
How about you just jam the missile user. Missiles are not turrets and should not operate like them, one of the few benefits of missiles is that you can't disrupt them once they's launched.
The also have a "goalkeeper" module called a defender missile. Missiles don't need another nerf. This idea nerfs a non-instantaneous and generally low dps system even further. If you cant tank it then thats called being countered or having a horrible fit. |
Azeroth Uluntil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.27 22:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
Missiles suck enough. Leave them alone. A semi-decent counter to them is smartbombs, if the person firing at you is dumb enough to group them...
Also, defender missiles are terrible except in very specific circumstances. Did they fix them while I was gone I wonder? |
Stabs McShiv
MINUS4
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 08:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sadly no.
|
Tobiaz
Spacerats
80
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 11:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
From the patchnotes:
Quote:Zainou 'Gypsy' Turret Destabilization TD-90x renamed to Zainou 'Gypsy' Weapon Disruption WD-90x.
Strong indication that CCP is adamant about making Tracking Disruptors apply to all weapontypes, thus creating the next "I win button''.
Missiles need their own specific counter, like a goalkeeper turret. Making everything more like the same is BAD for diversity, for balance (opens door to minmaxing) and for fun.
http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
241
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 11:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
1. Remove ECM. It may be broadly balanced these days but the random-chance mechanism and absence of stacking penalties are horrible.
2. Give Remote Sensor Dampers to Caldari and boost their strength as befits the most ewar-focused race. Caldari RSD would be best used by ships operating at range, either as snipers or support.
3. Give Gallente a new ewar of missile disruptors, as befits the missile spam from their racial enemies.
4. Realise that an entire mechanism of dealing with logistics (via ECM) is now gone. 
5. Errr...
6. Introduce remote-rep disruptors (cut range and transfer amount?)? Maybe the second Caldari ewar? |
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Glorious Revolution
The 99 Percent
56
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 11:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
I really hope tracking disruptors won't affect missiles.
That would make the pilgrim/curse terribly overpowered. |
Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
227
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 12:24:00 -
[47] - Quote
I think that CCP's doing their best to balance things in EVE.
This idea is probably more to do with the fact that there is no counter to missiles as it stands. Turrets can be countered easily with transversal and disruptors. What counters missiles? Defenders? They never worked and are a waste of time as they are.
On a side note, I put forward a proposal on Defenders in the Assembly Hall that would actually provide a counter without nerfing missiles any further. Read and give your opinions. Proposal on fixing Defenders
I am not really a lover of missiles personally but I do think they are getting a raw deal and don't need run down any further so I would prefer that TD's remain solely for disrupting turrets. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal
Terran Commonwealth
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 12:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
CCP is going to nerf the worst weapon system thats used (rails suck but are also caldari weapons) and the few ships that can manage to use it. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
71
|
Posted - 2012.03.28 22:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jayrendo Karr wrote:CCP is going to nerf the worst weapon system thats used (rails suck but are also caldari weapons) and the few ships that can manage to use it.
I am okay with the nerf but to do so without a counter is sooo wrong.
Please also introduce a module to counter this or wait before implementing it.
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |
Soporo
28
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 15:29:00 -
[50] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:Jayrendo Karr wrote:CCP is going to nerf the worst weapon system thats used (rails suck but are also caldari weapons) and the few ships that can manage to use it. I am okay with the nerf but to do so without a counter is sooo wrong. Please also introduce a module to counter this or wait before implementing it.
Even so, it would require giving up yet another mid or low slot for whatever widget is required. Ie: another nerf.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
- H.L. Mencken |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
423
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 15:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Explosion Radius Disruption Script
Missile Velocity Disruption Script |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
149
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 17:19:00 -
[52] - Quote
I guess all the Minmatar pilots complained too much about not owning all of the Top 20 spots on eve-kill.net. So CCP had to do something to appease them.
As a non-missile using, hull tanking Myrmidon pilot I thank you for the new i-win module for my midslots.
My comet was tired of running from hookbills too. Thanks for the same counter I was using for destroyers already.
BTW, buff damps instead. They counter long range missile boats pretty effectively. |
Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 19:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, damps are pretty effective against long range missile boats.
no they're not. unless its a ship with bonus to damps.
No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion. |
Jayrendo Karr
Suns Of Korhal
Terran Commonwealth
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 19:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
I would like to request ewar missiles that render all slots useless. It's feasable right? they arent good for much else anyways right? But don't worry they cost a decent amount and they arent always going to hit. I also request suicide drones that are basically missiles with guns and can carry 1000x the amount of explosives and are instant hit because they can warp, they armor tank and use projectile weapons and deal all ammo types.
EDIT oh only minmatarr ships could use them too. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
150
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 20:55:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pulgy wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, damps are pretty effective against long range missile boats.
no they're not. unless its a ship with bonus to damps. Yes they are. |
Dark Pangolin
Snuff Box
64
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:00:00 -
[56] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Pulgy wrote:X Gallentius wrote:
BTW, damps are pretty effective against long range missile boats.
no they're not. unless its a ship with bonus to damps. Yes they are.
Seriously they are, but only in numbers greater than 1 (2-3). They are also handy against logi. |
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2012.03.30 21:09:00 -
[57] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote:I think that CCP's doing their best to balance things in EVE.
This idea is probably more to do with the fact that there is no counter to missiles as it stands. Turrets can be countered easily with transversal and disruptors. What counters missiles? Defenders? They never worked and are a waste of time as they are.
.
Speed counters missiles, and transversal doesn't matter any direction is good. RSD's and ECM counters missiles along with most other things, Defenders counter missiles, though not that well and smart bombs counter them fairly well. Where did you get the idea that missiles are an i win button? Can you name 5 tactics or modules that counter guns? |
Ryker Hunter
Freeman Explorations
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.24 23:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:wow, there i am not looking at the forum for a day and i come back to a full frontal shitstorm. ok let me clarify my point
firstly, i have made two assumptions
1. if the change goes live, tracking disruptors will debuff missile flight time and/or missile velocity and/or explosion radius and/or explosion velocity. other debuffs (such as missiles 'missing' the target) might be considered but i don't regard them as probable
2. accordingly, the suggested buff to tracking enhancers would make them affect the same stats
now, assuming my assumptions are true, the tracking disruptor change would only affect small scale pvp situations (as in one drake versus one cane or somesuch) and only if one side has a tracking disruptor and the other one a missile boat (as well as the occasional mission runner who flies cnr or golem against sansha)
the assumed 'counterbuff' to tracking enhancers/computers on the other hand would increase the applied damage of missiles in almost all situations, (namely missions, plexes, rat belts, incursions, small scale pvp, blob pvp AND sleeper sites)
so, if the 'counterbuff' was introduced together with the actual tracking disruptor buff, missile boats would end up having a significant advantage in almost all situations, which in my opinion is not justified with regard to the current state of game balance.
well if you wanted to buff defenders you would need to make them apply to the fleet and also fire a bit more regularly. would be call with the new missile effect as well oww 2 missile fleets with defender boats as well would be such a f***ing awesome thing to watch. |
Ryker Hunter
Freeman Explorations
0
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 00:05:00 -
[59] - Quote
Zyress wrote:Smiling Menace wrote:I think that CCP's doing their best to balance things in EVE.
This idea is probably more to do with the fact that there is no counter to missiles as it stands. Turrets can be countered easily with transversal and disruptors. What counters missiles? Defenders? They never worked and are a waste of time as they are.
. Speed counters missiles, and transversal doesn't matter any direction is good. RSD's and ECM counters missiles along with most other things, Defenders counter missiles, though not that well and smart bombs counter them fairly well. Where did you get the idea that missiles are an i win button? Can you name 5 tactics or modules that counter guns?
were you being sarcastic there? That last bit 5 tactics that can counter guns. I'm going to run under the asumption that you were being completely serious.
1.Tacking disruptors
2. MWD "kiting"
3. AB "also kiting"
4. ECM
5. Web's "to enable kiting"
5+1. Scrams "also to enable kiting"
5+2. for autocannons and blasters and not so much pulses Range
5+3. for Rails Arties and beams getting in under the tracking
5+4. Sensor dampeners
there's a few more I think but you only asked for 5 and i gave you 9 so
if your smart and use these
2. MWD "kiting"
3. AB "also kiting"
5+2. for autocannons and blasters and not so much pulses Range
5+3. for Rails Arties and beams getting in under the tracking
and probably
5. Web's "to enable kiting"
5+1. Scrams "also to enable kiting"
missiles can beat guns into the ground. |
Kattshiro
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
86
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 01:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Not entirely a nerf to missiles rather a buff to TD's.
But I do think missiles need more mods. |
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