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Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.09.12 09:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Gypsio III on 12/09/2008 09:45:10 So a few months ago lasers were regarded as subpar. Many Amarr fits included autocannons, for example. Reasons cited included dodgy tracking, poor damage type and excessive PG and cap use. But now, lasers are more popular. Why? It doesn't seem to be a single reason, rather a combination of several: 1. Greater importance of mid-range combat. 2. Shield tanking becoming more popular (torp Ravens, nano LSE buffers). 3. Armour EM resist nerf. 4. Nos fix. 5. Buffer tanking becoming more popular, freeing up cap for lasers. 6. Any more?
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2008.09.12 09:48:00 - [2] Shut up! They're useless! Buff them ffs! Bufffffff themmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. ________ My views represent the views of my corp, deal with it.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.12 09:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 12/09/2008 09:45:10 So a few months ago lasers were regarded as subpar. Many Amarr fits included autocannons, for example. Reasons cited included dodgy tracking, poor damage type and excessive PG and cap use. But now, lasers are more popular. Why? It doesn't seem to be a single reason, rather a combination of several: 1. Greater importance of mid-range combat. 2. Shield tanking becoming more popular (torp Ravens, nano LSE buffers). 3. Armour EM resist nerf. 4. Nos fix. 5. Buffer tanking becoming more popular, freeing up cap for lasers. 6. Any more? They look uber when shooting? Sounds funny but i reckon many a noob/aestheticist wld find that an appealing factor hehe Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Originally by: Sherrif Jones ding ding! wrangler: Hello and w- ding ding! wrangler: Damn nano-whiners goes back to reading
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.09.12 10:03:00 - [4] I am caldari, but I love the amarr lasers. Wish I had a Rokh with laser bonuses, like I had in my dream :P
FT Diomedes Gallente Ductus Exemplo	Posted - 2008.09.12 10:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I am caldari, but I love the amarr lasers. Wish I had a Rokh with laser bonuses, like I had in my dream :P Isn't that called an Apoc? ------------ Improvize. Adapt. Overcome.
achoura	Posted - 2008.09.12 10:23:00 - [6] Idk what the op is smoking but the ships that had ac put on them still have ac put on them, not because they're less useful but because the ships actually suck. Bu there are sucky ship in all the races so meh. /me waves geddon *The EVE servers and their patches*
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.09.12 10:40:00 - [7] Originally by: FT Diomedes Originally by: Sidus Isaacs I am caldari, but I love the amarr lasers. Wish I had a Rokh with laser bonuses, like I had in my dream :P Isn't that called an Apoc? Yeah, but the Rokh looks so much better :)
Elaine Celeste Celeste Industries	Posted - 2008.09.12 10:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Elaine Celeste on 12/09/2008 10:51:14 So a few months ago lasers were regarded as subpar. Many Amarr fits included autocannons, for example. Reasons cited included dodgy tracking, poor damage type and excessive PG and cap use. But now, lasers are more popular. Why? It doesn't seem to be a single reason, rather a combination of several: 1. Greater importance of mid-range combat. 2. Shield tanking becoming more popular (torp Ravens, nano LSE buffers). 3. Armour EM resist nerf. 4. Nos fix. 5. Buffer tanking becoming more popular, freeing up cap for lasers. 6. Any more? Huh? 1. Pulse lasers are short to mid-range weapons. Beams are very long range. Amarr are great snipers, great mid-range, great close-range damage dealers. So nothing has really changed there. 2. Nothing has changed in what tanking has become more popular over the past few months, except for people preparing for the nano-nerf, which isn't finalized yet. 3. Ok, I guess. 4. That was ages ago. 5. Buffer tanking has been popular for more than just a few months, and it can be done on any ship. Lasers haven't been regarded as sub-par for quite some time now, and autocannons or blasters are really only fitted on a few smaller ships (punisher, that shitty rocket assault frigate, the arbitrator). Lasers have great tracking, great range, and great damage. While only doing EM/Thermal is not great, it's really no different to Hybrid ammo and lots of Projectile ammo. CELESTE LOTTERIES: Where losing is almost harder than winning... almost.
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:03:00 - [9] Originally by: achoura /me waves geddon You sir, must have a v. big arm Proudly annoying FC's since 2007 Originally by: Sherrif Jones ding ding! wrangler: Hello and w- ding ding! wrangler: Damn nano-whiners goes back to reading
Vim Spook Division R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:05:00 - [10] You can get some 800dps with drones out of a megapulse buffereshield rokh
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:13:00 - [11] Originally by: BiggestT They look uber when shooting? Sounds funny but i reckon many a noob/aestheticist wld find that an appealing factor hehe Excuse me, Minmatar have the absolutely best looking coolest ship in game. Hurricane. It also works, too Also, being able to tell people on vent "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my autocannons." is the next best thing "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am." Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:18:00 - [12] The way that CCP balanced guns was truly impressive. Without making any sweeping changes to the stats of the weapons they manages to make all gun systems equally useful in their own role. As for Amarr ships still using AC's. You best not be talking about the Apoc or I'll have a good mind to slap your face! Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:23:00 - [13] or could the reasons be Apoc - range bonus - Pulse lasers are now even better for missions than they used to be (also the only amarr battleship to have been better when fitted with ac's) Nano-gangs - T2 med pulse are at the perfect range for hitting nano ships when loaded with scorch 4 and 5 kinda contradic each other nos used to hurt active tanks just as much as it hurt lasers so buffer tanks were VERY popular at the time. Since the nos nerf (not fix) active tanking became more viable. so really only the torp raven affected lasers (nano gangs having been covered by med pulse lasers and range) and that's only really much of an issue for battleships and then only again the apoc pre change and then only if you werent sniping with it and was caught in a mission in which case you're still dead.
Benco97 Gallente The Star League	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:32:00 - [14] I, being completely insane, like to fit lasers on Minmatar ships. It's fun. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.09.12 11:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: BiggestT They look uber when shooting? Sounds funny but i reckon many a noob/aestheticist wld find that an appealing factor hehe Excuse me, Minmatar have the absolutely best looking coolest ship in game. Hurricane. It also works, too Also, being able to tell people on vent "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my autocannons." is the next best thing "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am." Beauty lies ion the eyes of the beholder, I like boxy ships like the Rokh and Drake. Minmatar ships looks more like something from Scrapheap Challenge :P. Amarr got some good thing for them tho, as do Gallante.
Reziak Caldari Astrogeology Institute	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:04:00 - [16] I enjoy my prophecy for lvl 3 missions. I like my amarr toon. However No matter how I outfit the thing with lasers I can never get anywhere close to say my raven or brutix.
Elhina Novae Destruction Reborn CORPVS DELICTI	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Reziak I enjoy my prophecy for lvl 3 missions. I like my amarr toon. However No matter how I outfit the thing with lasers I can never get anywhere close to say my raven or brutix. Harbinger. Prophecy is only there for the lulz ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Reziak Caldari Astrogeology Institute	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:30:00 - [18] That's what I've read but I like how the proph looks. But it is def lacking in dealing any damage.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:35:00 - [19] Originally by: Gypsio III So a few months ago lasers were regarded as subpar. Many Amarr fits included autocannons, for example. Reasons cited included dodgy tracking, poor damage type and excessive PG and cap use. But now, lasers are more popular. Why? It doesn't seem to be a single reason, rather a combination of several: 1. Greater importance of mid-range combat. 2. Shield tanking becoming more popular (torp Ravens, nano LSE buffers). 3. Armour EM resist nerf. 4. Nos fix. 5. Buffer tanking becoming more popular, freeing up cap for lasers. 6. Any more? Sigh, Gypsio, if this question gets asked any more frequently I'm going to write the answer down in a notepad to make sure that I don't forget it. I wrote a pretty concise summary in a discussion with Tererereeeani Eri (So sorry for the spelling, but I honestly have no idea how you spell it). If (s)he remembers what thread it was in, I'll hunt it down and link it. In short: There were 4-5 major laser boosts and a couple of metagame shifts. -Liang --
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:40:00 - [20] For the lazy: Originally by: Terianna Eri So I'm noting a pretty big "Amarr are overpowered" trend here on the forums, which is interesting because... well, it doesn't seem like there have been a lot of sweeping changes to the ships/modules themselves, but I'll count them. I'd like to congratulate you on an excellent post. You really live up to your traditional posting style. To answer your question, I think it's the combination of several things, but none by themselves. Here are the boosts which really brought Amarr out of control: - Pulse Tracking was boosted to be really pretty decent. Pulse lasers became the de facto standard for shooting nano ships. This was fine. - The overall removal/rebalancing of crappy T2 ships (Khanid Mk II). This gave Amarrian players somewhere to go for T2 that didn't outright suck. Additionally, it overboosted the Sacrilege (slightly). This was fine. - The Omen/Zealot change (+1 turret, no fittings). This change by itself is pretty reasonable, but didn't affect the Omen. The Zealot, however, was transformed from "pretty reasonable" to "freaking amazing ranged DPS monster". This was fine (but the Omen was incorrect). - The Apocalypse. This ship annoys the crap out of me. The range bonus when considered purely with beams is borderline "fine". Even the devs were concerned that it would overshadow the Rokh. What they didn't seem to see was the application of the bonus to pulse lasers. Apoc + Pulse lasers is OP. Apoc + Tachs makes Arties useless. Even Goumindong told the devs that the pulse Apoc was OP. This was wrong. - Tracking disruptors. These are simply overpowered on unbonused ships against Minmatar AC boats. AC boats have no defense against TDs, and removing a range bonused Vaga from the fight is as easy as fitting an unbonused TD. Oddly enough, Scorch simply shrugs off range TD's up to a certain point (which is well beyond the point at which ACs are useless). This was wrong. - The "Locus Bug". Locus rigs are simply not stacking nerfed with modules, and this is stupidly broken when used in conjunction with pulse lasers and scorch. With as many patches as this has been around, it's time we stop calling it a "bug" and start calling it an "intended feature". The sad thing is that this "bug" is really only available for optimal range based ships (all lasers and railguns). - Increases in player base and gang sizes. Lasers do instant damage at range, and as you say, it's better to start shooting now than to MWD over and start shooting in 30 seconds. The sad thing is that this was true back when people were complaining about lasers and saying that blasters were so much better. - The resistance change. This was really the straw that broke the camel's back. By itself, it was likely the right move to make. In conjunction with all the other changes, it was borderline foolish. And then, of course, there have been advances in the metagame (which don't really have alot to do with the game itself, but more to do with social awareness). - Certain forum ****s of The Great Amarrian Whine Squad left the game or their guns fell silent. This means that when someone said "You could be shooting me from 35km while I MWD back to the gate" there was nobody there to say "LOL U NOOB THAT DOESNT HAPPEN". It didn't take people long to notice that this happened all the time. They just hadn't been looking for it. - A deeper understanding of the game evolved and became well known (such as the hit quality formula). Implications of this are that people were finally able to put a finger on certain aspects of the game that definitely* favor laserships. - The promised speed nerf (announced over a year ago) has dramatically altered game perceptions. No nano and minnies lose their role. Low blaster range means that Gallente is out for small gang fights. Then there's Amarr with so many recent benefits, and Caldari with only missile fight time against them. -Liang --
Rhaegor Stormborn Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:51:00 - [21] Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 12/09/2008 16:51:21 I hope I can make a post like this about projectile turrets in a few months.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn I hope I can make a post like this about autocannons in a few months. Me too, honestly. AC's have quite a bit more to overcome than lasers did (they always had extremely high base damage, optimal range is king by virtue of hit quantity and quality, etc). I have alot of trouble coming up with metagames in which autocannons in their current form are the "best" weapon platform. Maybe if they removed cap boosters from the game or made their fittings really jacked up. -Liang --
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.09.12 17:23:00 - [23] lets give AC's even more falloff! That would really make me laugh if that ever happened, imagine having a vaga or something have 100km falloff
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 17:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Greckor Monmouth lets give AC's even more falloff! That would really make me laugh if that ever happened, imagine having a vaga or something have 100km falloff Actually one of the most balanced ways to fix autocannons is to give them more falloff. My (current) vote goes with 25% more falloff per tier starting at where things are now. Either way, can I ask just what's so bad about a Vaga getting a little bit of extra falloff when the zealot gets quite alot of extra optimal? -Liang --
Capt'n Tightpants	Posted - 2008.09.12 17:49:00 - [25] Edited by: Capt''n Tightpants on 12/09/2008 17:50:51 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Greckor Monmouth lets give AC's even more falloff! That would really make me laugh if that ever happened, imagine having a vaga or something have 100km falloff Actually one of the most balanced ways to fix autocannons is to give them more falloff. My (current) vote goes with 25% more falloff per tier starting at where things are now. Either way, can I ask just what's so bad about a Vaga getting a little bit of extra falloff when the zealot gets quite alot of extra optimal? -Liang -20% optimal, +50% falloff, +10% damage
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.09.12 18:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren I wrote a pretty concise summary in a discussion with Terianna Eri. If (s)he remembers what thread it was in, I'll hunt it down and link it. no girls in eve etc etc On-topic: Well, Liang already linked to the thread where I shared my opinions on the subject, so I don't have much more to say. Worth thinking about though that for all we know the next metagame will be people flying around in gangs of 2-3 small, fast, very high damage ships in order to avoid fleets of mid-long-range stuff, and the Deimos will become really awesome or something. __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 18:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Terianna Eri Worth thinking about though that for all we know the next metagame will be people flying around in gangs of 2-3 small, fast, very high damage ships in order to avoid fleets of mid-long-range stuff, and the Deimos will become really awesome or something. I think that's the current metagame (where the Deimos is still crappy)... and CCP is deliberately taking a sledge hammer to it. And I'm fairly sure that I won't be seeing small gangs of small fast ships... but I live in lowsec these days. ;-) -Liang --
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.09.12 18:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Terianna Eri Worth thinking about though that for all we know the next metagame will be people flying around in gangs of 2-3 small, fast, very high damage ships in order to avoid fleets of mid-long-range stuff, and the Deimos will become really awesome or something. I think that's the current metagame (where the Deimos is still crappy)... and CCP is deliberately taking a sledge hammer to it. And I'm fairly sure that I won't be seeing small gangs of small fast ships... but I live in lowsec these days. ;-) -Liang If we already have that metagame (small, fast, high-damage ships), and the Deimos (which is a relatively small, agile, and very high damage ship) is crappy, then how does it become good? I know that 1-2 years ago the deimos (and other blasterboats) were the bee's knees, so __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 18:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Terianna Eri If we already have that metagame (small, fast, high-damage ships), and the Deimos (which is a relatively small, agile, and very high damage ship) is crappy, then how does it become good? It won't. That's my point. Quote: I know that 1-2 years ago the deimos (and other blasterboats) were the bee's knees, so Yep, I know that. I was there. ;-) -Liang --
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.09.12 18:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Terianna Eri I think a year or so ago Goumindong said that "mid-range combat will never become useful," and that therefore Amarr will never be good. I'm just waiting for the nerf bat to swing around again Yeah, but he was always foolish about some things. That said, I kinda miss the big lug. You seen him about anywhere? And honestly, I am too. Why do you think I haven't deviated from my Matari training? ;-) -Liang --

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