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Steppa
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:18:00 -
[1]
I can honestly say that I don't recall every seeing a thread on this topic. If it's been beat to death, pardon the few seconds out of your life I'm stealing for you to read this far.
1) Has CCP ever given a rationale behind limiting clone-jumping to 1 per RL day?
2) Assuming no, why should there be such a rectrictive limit?
3) Why not make it skills-based and/or isk-based to allow for more per day?
If we were allowed to bounce around, even twice per day, it would impact the market quite a bit (especially in all issues relating to mission-running). Perhaps this is the reason it's one per, but I don't know.
Thoughts?
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:20:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Steppa
1) Has CCP ever given a rationale behind limiting clone-jumping to 1 per RL day?
Yes.
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Seeing EyeDog
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:21:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Steppa
If it's been beat to death, pardon the few seconds out of your life I'm stealing for you to read this far.
It has been, please do an extensive search...
_____________________
Originally by: Locus Bey
Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
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Alora Venoda
GalTech
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:22:00 -
[4]
i agree it should be shorter, perhaps a skill that cuts the time by 10% each level?
i am pretty sure this limit was put in back when they first added jump clones, and have never considered changing it.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless.
Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application. |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:24:00 -
[5]
More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place?
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DesuSigs |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:24:00 -
[6]
Personally, the universe is already small enough due to clone jumping. Maybe if they limited it in maximum distance, just like the trading skills, then we could make a skill for quicker jumping. But when you can go from one point to the other automagically, it means that more nulsec players can abuse hisec markets without being limited to how much the space they claim can actually support. It also means that pirates can move to whatever losec region has the most activity quick and easily.
So, yeah, give it a boosting skill to the number of hours it allows you to jump. And then please God limit the number of systems you can jump between, with max maybe being neighboring regions.
EvE is small enough, personally. We don't need more superhighways, we really didn't need warp to zero (well, bookmarks were out of control, I admit), and jump clones are just another way of taking the massive size of EvE away.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Tao Han
Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:26:00 -
[7]
I really dont think they should shorten the time, its a decision you will have to make and a decision you will have to stand by.
Also, making the eve universe smaller (faster to travel in) isnt necessary, warp to 0 made it small enough.
Disclaimer, I like WTZ.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:34:00 -
[8]
I'm curious how the OP thinks twice a day clone jumping impacts mission running.
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Highwind Cid
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:36:00 -
[9]
I say 12 hours is good.
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SuckySycky5dolla
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:38:00 -
[10]
I'd be in favor of twice a day improvement. Make 2nd jump cost 10mil or something. Nice isk sink.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:44:00 -
[11]
Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now.
Don't believe me? How many players can rat in a given nulsec system, and still maintain the money's necessary to replace ships and pay for transportations? How many miners can mine in that system?
Taking all forms of nulsec profitability, and then compare it to alliances like BoB or Goon. Do you honestly think their systems, despite holding whole regions, can provide enough money to support their major wars?
Nulsec space being limited in resources is the natural limitation imposed on the size of alliances. Jump clones allow them to work around those limitations by providing their many members the means to use resources from other locations ... including the infinite, non-competition based resource of missioning ... to further cement their hold on vast swaths of territory that would not be able to support them otherwise.
Provide less time between jump clones, while maintianing the unlimited range, and you are supporting the hold older alliances have in nulsec, and shooting down the efforts of any new groups moving into those areas.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:46:00 -
[12]
Jump clones should be removed.
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DesuSigs |
b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: b1zz on 12/09/2008 15:51:36
Originally by: Crumplecorn
More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place?
It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. ie. It's a device to get players into 0.0.
It's also there to stop players being chained to their alliances in 0.0, so when the shit hit the fan they can get out there in a hurry.
Originally by: SuckySycky5dolla
I'd be in favor of twice a day improvement. Make 2nd jump cost 10mil or something. Nice isk sink.
Not going to happen. 24 hours is more than generous. Any less and we start to get into teleporter range. This is not Star Trek and you should not be able to be here, there, and in between at the same time.
Edit: additional point.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place?
It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. It's also there to stop players being chained to their alliances in 0.0, so when the shit hit the fan they can get out there in a hurry.
Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse?
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DesuSigs |
Shidhe
Minmatar
The Babylon5 Consortuim
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:56:00 -
[15]
An interesting argument. There was a huge amount of discussion when jump clones were introduced, and many players were against them (including myself). Subsequently I thought that they were probably a good idea. Certainly when I was building MS in 0.0 some time ago it would have been much more difficult without them. But then that leads to Ruze's point. As a political point, do we want the present landscape of 0.0 to continue or not? CCP's delay over doing anything about moon minerals suggests to me that they want to maintain the status quo there.
Originally by: Ruze
Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now.
...
Nulsec space being limited in resources is the natural limitation imposed on the size of alliances. Jump clones allow them to work around those limitations by providing their many members the means to use resources from other locations ... including the infinite, non-competition based resource of missioning ... to further cement their hold on vast swaths of territory that would not be able to support them otherwise.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: b1zz
Edited by: b1zz on 12/09/2008 15:51:36
It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. ie. It's a device to get players into 0.0.
.
.
.
Not going to happen. 24 hours is more than generous. Any less and we start to get into
teleporter range. This is not Star Trek and you should not be able to be here, there, and in between at the same time.
Edit: additional point.
Which is kinda why they have failed as a PvP encouraging device. Loose an entire day of good SP training every time you want to go fight? Sounds like a huge encouragement to avoid PvP and stay where it is safe.
I would be ok with jump clones being removed or such if there was a way to protect (or remove) learning implants. Otherwise something like 'limited range but quick turnover' jumpclones, like a 15 minute wait if you are in the same system.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 15:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ruze
Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now.
This is a game. You cannot expect the players who run those alliances to be on 24hour attack watch. They would get bored very quickly. Jump clones are there to remove some tedium and allow alliances to realistically hold territory.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Ruze
Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now.
This is a game. You cannot expect the players who run those alliances to be on 24hour attack watch. They would get bored very quickly. Jump clones are there to remove some tedium and allow alliances to realistically hold territory.
It still bypasses the isk-producing limitations of that space. Let's make up a figure that I think might be close to accurate: Say a 100-man corporation can survive with a single system, including five moons, five belts, a -.5 security status, and exploration.
They have to maintain POS's, they have to mine the minerals, they'd have to produce and transport those minerals, etc, etc.
Instead, one corporation can hold five-ten systems more easily, by controlling two gateway systems, letting a dozen miners and another half dozen ratters chain belts, while the other 80 corp members are all jump-cloned into hisec missioning, trading, whatnot.
Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability.
You can't BEAT that corporation, without having a larger one. It does happen, don't get me wrong. But for many new, starter corps, getting out into 0.0 is overly difficult, because you can kill a corporations nulsec assets and producers, and still not defeat that corporation or break it's hold.
You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 -
[19]
You've not been looking then, there's a thread every other day on the topic. This is not the heartstone you're looking for... 
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse?
No.
Originally by: Nekopyat
Which is kinda why they have failed as a PvP encouraging device. Loose an entire day of good SP training every time you want to go fight? Sounds like a huge encouragement to avoid PvP and stay where it is safe.
They haven't failed at all. Fit some less expensive +3 implants. Fit some combat implants. Go without and lose a day! Oh noes.
I dunno what you guys are on about. Jump clones are one of the few devices in this game that are perfect. I just got my jump clones and suddenly I feel very free wanting go explore and have fun.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:11:00 -
[21]
My PVP/0.0 clone got 2 +3 implants. Cheap if you dont get podded too often, and you barely lose SP if you just train the skills which use the 2 implants you have. (I got willpower + perception and only train gunnery and spaceship command skills when in that clone).
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ruze
Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability.
Use your imagination and feint an attack here, then 12 hours later attack there, exploiting the 24hr limit.
Originally by: Ruze
You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support.
Too much advantage for the attacker. Fleet battles victories should be based actual conflicts, not annihilations of defenseless installations.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse?
No.
That's what I thought.
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DesuSigs |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Ruze
Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability.
Use your imagination and feint an attack here, then 12 hours later attack there, exploiting the 24hr limit.
Originally by: Ruze
You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support.
Too much advantage for the attacker. Fleet battles victories should be based actual conflicts, not annihilations of defenseless installations.
My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function?
Why must these great 0.0 alliances rely on hisec, despite their conquering many systems and controlling vast swaths of territories? It comes down to the fact that, despite how great those nulsec rewards sound, if the players who participate in those fights and those corporations all actually LIVED there, they would be no better, and in most cases far worse off, than the average hisec dweller.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:29:00 -
[25]
Stealth high sec whine topic now?
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:34:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Ruze
My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function?
Maybe nulsec is boring. I don't know. I'm sure they would stay out there if there were interesting and fun things to do.
I think the point of jump clones is that they allow 0.0 corps NOT to be tied to 0.0. Are you saying that because they are successful out in 0.0 they should be stuck out there.
At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone.
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:37:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Stealth high sec whine topic now?
Isn't everything these days? Hell, people whinging about the pricing of the new ship models in the EVE store are also making a veiled whinges about the risk/reward of highsec level 4s. :P
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 16:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Furb Killer
Stealth high sec whine topic now?
Isn't everything these days? Hell, people whinging about the pricing of the new ship models in the EVE store are also making a veiled whinges about the risk/reward of highsec level 4s. :P
It's true. Even the one's whining about those whining about hisec are trying to somehow emphasize that hisec is overpowered and needs nerfed.
It never ends ...
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:00:00 -
[29]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Ruze
My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function?
Maybe nulsec is boring. I don't know. I'm sure they would stay out there if there were interesting and fun things to do.
I think the point of jump clones is that they allow 0.0 corps NOT to be tied to 0.0. Are you saying that because they are successful out in 0.0 they should be stuck out there.
At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone.
MAX agrees.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:06:00 -
[30]
Originally by: b1zz
At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone.
I'd be more free if I could jump instantly to any system with no limitations.
And had infinite ISK when I got there.
...
Jump clones should be removed.
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DesuSigs |
Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:09:00 -
[31]
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers, and should have never have been introduced.
Reducing the timer would make them even more powerful.
Those who ask for it for convenience just don't think through how much more of an advantage it gives to people like me.
Eve-Online: The Text Adventure |
Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:12:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kuar Z''thain on 12/09/2008 17:12:47
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Care to elaborate as to why? You're usually pretty good about stating why you are objecting to something. Not so much this time other than "it makes things easier."
edit: or do you just agree with Avon? 
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:17:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Avon
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers
How so? If both sides have them, how are they a force multiplier?
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Avon
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers
How so? If both sides have them, how are they a force multiplier?
Let's use MAX as an example.
Do you think GBC would be able to attack the opposite end of the Galaxy without being able to defend Delve on a moments notice?
No. We would leave people there to do that. Since we don't have to, Jump Clones are a force multiplier.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Avon
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers
How so? If both sides have them, how are they a force multiplier?
Let's use MAX as an example.
Do you think GBC would be able to attack the opposite end of the Galaxy without being able to defend Delve on a moments notice?
No. We would leave people there to do that. Since we don't have to, Jump Clones are a force multiplier.
You could hold a war on two fronts within the same 24 hour period, and if your assets are pre-placed, do so with full equipment.
Wasn't even thinking of that, myself.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Care to elaborate as to why? You're usually pretty good about stating why you are objecting to something. Not so much this time other than "it makes things easier."
Basically, yes, because it makes things easier. To be more specific:
They effectively let you remove implants without destroying them, only it has a time limit and has to be done in sets. If you were supposed to be able to protect your implants like this, they would have been removable since day 1.
The let you pop around your areas of operation, cherry picking the best location/activity at any given time, without having to commit to actually spending time travelling there, and being faced with the trip back when finished.
They make the world smaller. Similar to the previous point, but more about the fact that you do not need to be self-sufficient if you, for instance, live in 0.0, since you can just pop into highsec to earn ISK and pop back when done. It allows you to live in multiple areas at once, effectively.
I agree with Avon's point too, but the main issues for me are the risk/commitment aversion ones. Why not just allow instant travel and no-loss PvP and be done with it?
One thing I always find funny about JCs is that they are the only change to the game that I disagree with which took place before I actually joined the game. I dislike them so much I retroactively object to their addition.
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DesuSigs |
Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:35:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ruze
You could hold a war on two fronts within the same 24 hour period, and if your assets are pre-placed, do so with full equipment.
Wasn't even thinking of that, myself.
Now you're getting it.
I'm sure CCP didn't envision an entire Alliance doing something like that.... but here we are.
If they took away jump clones completely, then people who still wanted to do this would just open up a corp office in a station with cloning, don't keep in any implants, set your respawn to a new system and just pod to destination.
So don't bother trying to take out jump clones unless you close that loophole too.
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Truk Mei
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Now you're getting it.
I'm sure CCP didn't envision an entire Alliance doing something like that.... but here we are.
Sure they did. Was/is common practice.
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
If they took away jump clones completely, then people who still wanted to do this would just open up a corp office in a station with cloning, don't keep in any implants, set your respawn to a new system and just pod to destination.
You make it sound as if this is new tactic....
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
So don't bother trying to take out jump clones unless you close that loophole too.
Jump Clones were meant to help limit the effects of this loophole.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Avon
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers
How so? If both sides have them, how are they a force multiplier?
Let's use MAX as an example.
Do you think GBC would be able to attack the opposite end of the Galaxy without being able to defend Delve on a moments notice?
No. We would leave people there to do that. Since we don't have to, Jump Clones are a force multiplier.
Still not really a force multiplier. With or without jump clones the attacker has the upper hand, with jump clones the advantage is as you describe your scenario there, being able to attack and defend at the same time. And your opponent has the same advantage, it's just that you're the one with the initiative. Surely there are equal defensive tactics that can use jump clones to full effect, like having assets on your borders ready for when you do attack to get you to break off and get a 24 hour respite. I can't say I'm an expert on fleet logistics.
I guess what you are saying is that if you have some advantage in skill or numbers you can really bring it to full effect and are not tied down with defense.
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.09.12 17:51:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
If they took away jump clones completely, then people who still wanted to do this would just open up a corp office in a station with cloning, don't keep in any implants, set your respawn to a new system and just pod to destination.
CCP opened this door even before jump clones via encouraging metagaming so much.
Even if all these loopholes were closed, people would just use alts. In terms of immersion and fairness, alts are a much bigger problem then jump clones could ever be. Hidden supply lines, ISK-making, traceless transfers. There is not much reason to jump physical characters around when you can just create more then one and switch between them.
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:05:00 -
[41]
Crumplecorn: Some great points there, all of which I agree with.
Truk Mei: Lay off the coffee. I'm just making sure everyone sees all the aspects of what we are discussing.
Nekopyat: What else am I supposed to do with this 'Power of Two' account?
I'm gonna go away now since this has turned into a 'Nerf BOB' thread somehow. 
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Nekopyat
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Nekopyat: What else am I supposed to do with this 'Power of Two' account?
Heh. Yeah, CCP has made it pretty clear that metagaming is to be encouraged. Just pointing out that the 'problems' that jumpclones can cause pale in comparison to the ones created by design decisions like allowing metagaming.... and all the hacks that get put in to deal with those consequences (such as the wardec system)
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:24:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Nekopyat: What else am I supposed to do with this 'Power of Two' account?
Heh. Yeah, CCP has made it pretty clear that metagaming is to be encouraged. Just pointing out that the 'problems' that jumpclones can cause pale in comparison to the ones created by design decisions like allowing metagaming.... and all the hacks that get put in to deal with those consequences (such as the wardec system)
There is honestly nothing you could do to prevent multiple accounts usage by the same person what with Virtual Machines and proxys. CCP might as well encourage it and get some extra revenue out of the deal.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:30:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Originally by: Nekopyat
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
Nekopyat: What else am I supposed to do with this 'Power of Two' account?
Heh. Yeah, CCP has made it pretty clear that metagaming is to be encouraged. Just pointing out that the 'problems' that jumpclones can cause pale in comparison to the ones created by design decisions like allowing metagaming.... and all the hacks that get put in to deal with those consequences (such as the wardec system)
There is honestly nothing you could do to prevent multiple accounts usage by the same person what with Virtual Machines and proxys. CCP might as well encourage it and get some extra revenue out of the deal.
Course, the same argument can and is used for isk purchasing, too.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Valrandir
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.12 18:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Alora Venoda
i am pretty sure this limit was put in back when they first added jump clones, and have never considered changing it.
TA-TAH!
This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware. |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.09.12 19:15:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Avon
Jump clones are horrible force multipliers, and should have never have been introduced.
Reducing the timer would make them even more powerful.
Those who ask for it for convenience just don't think through how much more of an advantage it gives to people like me.
Hear the man, believe it!
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Raimo
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.09.12 19:58:00 -
[47]
I for one would love to see jumpclones tweaked somehow, for totally selfish reasons.
I use JCs to swap implant sets. I don't at least currently use JCs to travel. If the teleporting part is the bigger evil in the big picture, don't change that, or even nerf it to 48hrs or more. But I would love to see a "local implant swap"- type JC being available more frequently, even only twice a day. Just limit it to constellation or whatever. It would make at least me able to enjoy the different aspects of this game much more with a single character... Even though I do have a 2nd account too but I'd like to do all the "meaningful" things I do with my main.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.09.12 20:34:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Raimo
I for one would love to see jumpclones tweaked somehow, for totally selfish reasons.
I use JCs to swap implant sets. I don't at least currently use JCs to travel. If the teleporting part is the bigger evil in the big picture, don't change that, or even nerf it to 48hrs or more. But I would love to see a "local implant swap"- type JC being available more frequently, even only twice a day. Just limit it to constellation or whatever. It would make at least me able to enjoy the different aspects of this game much more with a single character... Even though I do have a 2nd account too but I'd like to do all the "meaningful" things I do with my main.
How meaningful would it be if you don't actually fly with your main between the points of interest? 
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Raimo
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 20:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Raimo on 12/09/2008 20:51:12
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
How meaningful would it be if you don't actually fly with your main between the points of interest?
Uh, maybe I'm not getting something here... But I said that for me the places I go to with JCs are irrelevant, it's the different implant loadouts I'm interested in. learning set/ repper boost for PVE, snakes or something else for PVP...
My current EVE life is such that I mission and trade during the day to fund my FW in the evenings. If I could swap implant clones in the morning and in the evening, I could maximize my potential in both roles, now I have to choose one or the other.
To the ones that think this is as it should be, isn't this again encouraging alts? I could start a char on a different account or buy a ready-trained char to my existing account to maximize the different occupations better, but like I said I'd love to do it with my main...
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.09.12 21:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Raimo
Edited by: Raimo on 12/09/2008 20:51:12
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
How meaningful would it be if you don't actually fly with your main between the points of interest?
Uh, maybe I'm not getting something here... But I said that for me the places I go to with JCs are irrelevant, it's the different implant loadouts I'm interested in. learning set/ repper boost for PVE, snakes or something else for PVP...
My current EVE life is such that I mission and trade during the day to fund my FW in the evenings. If I could swap implant clones in the morning and in the evening, I could maximize my potential in both roles, now I have to choose one or the other.
To the ones that think this is as it should be, isn't this again encouraging alts? I could start a char on a different account or buy a ready-trained char to my existing account to maximize the different occupations better, but like I said I'd love to do it with my main...
Again, how meaningful would any kind of situation feel for you if you have the 'replicator' on board, press one button and you're ready to deal with any type of situation. Sounds awfully trekkie to me, deal with the hand you have or get out till next shuffle is up.
This isn't some horrid fantasy MMO where the tank stands around outside a room dressing into his frost gear full plate, putting his other 15 full plates in the pouch.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Raimo
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 21:42:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Again, how meaningful would any kind of situation feel for you if you have the 'replicator' on board, press one button and you're ready to deal with any type of situation. Sounds awfully trekkie to me, deal with the hand you have or get out till next shuffle is up.
This isn't some horrid fantasy MMO where the tank stands around outside a room dressing into his frost gear full plate, putting his other 15 full plates in the pouch.
LMFBO, a "tough" get-back-to-w0w response? You do realize that internet spaceships is not *really* more serious business than flirty night elves dancing like Travolta dreaming of geese? They are both frakkin computer games. Sheesh.
We play this fine specimen for our enjoyment. If I feel that I'd enjoy my gaming more if I could swap implants more conveniently *instead* of the even-more-metagamey way of using an alt, is it wrong to ask for a change?
And no, I don't play that "horrid fantasy MMO" and my stuff stays with me. Thanks.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 23:09:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Crumplecorn on 12/09/2008 23:10:18
Originally by: Ruze
Course, the same argument can and is used for isk purchasing, too.
ISK purchasing lets you get out of playing the game, offloading the work onto someone else. Alts just let you play the game more in the same amount of time, you still do the work, just in less time. Thusly I would argue that alts are less harmful, and so the argument cannot automatically be passed on to ISK purchasing.
On a separate point, if they don't remove jump clones, they should at least make them destroy implants whenever they are used. People flying around in 10M ISK Battleships with their expensive leaning implants swapped out to keep them safe make me wonder what game I'm playing.
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DesuSigs |
Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.12 23:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Well, yeah, but replaced with a way to swap clones locally. It's extremely annoying to have two pirate sets optimized for different things and not be able to swap without JCs...
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 23:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Well, yeah, but replaced with a way to swap clones locally. It's extremely annoying to have two pirate sets optimized for different things and not be able to swap without JCs...
No. Specialize.
Or, ask that they make implants removable.
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DesuSigs |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 23:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Well, yeah, but replaced with a way to swap clones locally. It's extremely annoying to have two pirate sets optimized for different things and not be able to swap without JCs...
No. Specialize.
Or, ask that they make implants removable.
Allow that to be something with ambulation. Want to swap implants? Go to a player doctor's shop. A little incision, and wham ... done.
Course, I'd also make it so that player doctors had to install the damn things, too. Instant necessary profession.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.09.12 23:46:00 -
[56]
Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 12/09/2008 23:47:24
They should change jump clones so the time to next jump depends on how far you traveled. I'd like to be able to maintain multiple clone sets in the same area.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Jump clones should be removed.
Well, yeah, but replaced with a way to swap clones locally. It's extremely annoying to have two pirate sets optimized for different things and not be able to swap without JCs...
No. Specialize.
Or, ask that they make implants removable.
Specialize is just a way of saying to fly with a blob.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 23:48:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ruze
Allow that to be something with ambulation. Want to swap implants? Go to a player doctor's shop. A little incision, and wham ... done.
Course, I'd also make it so that player doctors had to install the damn things, too. Instant necessary profession.
Not only does that create a new profession and add something useful to Ambulation, it also allows the swapping of implants while avoiding having an instant 'protect my implants' button.
An excellent idea.
Can't happen though unfortunately, because people won't want any features tied to ambulation specifically.
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DesuSigs |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.12 23:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto
Specialize is just a way of saying to fly with a blob.
What.
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DesuSigs |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 00:02:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ruze
Allow that to be something with ambulation. Want to swap implants? Go to a player doctor's shop. A little incision, and wham ... done.
Course, I'd also make it so that player doctors had to install the damn things, too. Instant necessary profession.
Not only does that create a new profession and add something useful to Ambulation, it also allows the swapping of implants while avoiding having an instant 'protect my implants' button.
An excellent idea.
Can't happen though unfortunately, because people won't want any features tied to ambulation specifically.
A stupid mindset of CCP's to appeal to an even dumber portion of the playerbase. If ambulation isn't required, why the f*ck make it ...
So to speak ...
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ruze
Allow that to be something with ambulation. Want to swap implants? Go to a player doctor's shop. A little incision, and wham ... done.
Course, I'd also make it so that player doctors had to install the damn things, too. Instant necessary profession.
Not only does that create a new profession and add something useful to Ambulation, it also allows the swapping of implants while avoiding having an instant 'protect my implants' button.
An excellent idea.
Can't happen though unfortunately, because people won't want any features tied to ambulation specifically.
A stupid mindset of CCP's to appeal to an even dumber portion of the playerbase. If ambulation isn't required, why the f*ck make it ...
So to speak ...
It isn't required as flying titans isn't required to play the game, however I'm certain Ambulation will hold features making it worthwhile.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 00:19:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Ruze
A stupid mindset of CCP's to appeal to an even dumber portion of the playerbase. If ambulation isn't required, why the f*ck make it ...
So to speak ...
I can kind of understand it, while people saying they only want to play a very narrow part of the game seems stupid to me, people saying they only want to play the internet spaceships part is more understandable, and I can see why CCP would want to allow for that.
Making Ambulation optional (at least initially *cough*) allows it to worm its way in without ****ing off people who just want internet spaceships.
Well, that was the theory anyway. Given the number of whiners who complain over it's mere existence, and those who cannot understand what 'optional' means, at this point they may as well make it mandatory. 
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DesuSigs |
Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:21:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Steppa
I can honestly say that I don't recall every seeing a thread on this topic. If it's been beat to death, pardon the few seconds out of your life I'm stealing for you to read this far.
1) Has CCP ever given a rationale behind limiting clone-jumping to 1 per RL day?
2) Assuming no, why should there be such a rectrictive limit?
3) Why not make it skills-based and/or isk-based to allow for more per day?
If we were allowed to bounce around, even twice per day, it would impact the market quite a bit (especially in all issues relating to mission-running). Perhaps this is the reason it's one per, but I don't know.
Thoughts?
Actually, a lot of folks were against Jump Clones (in my own case, only very mildly against. They are useful...).
Howver, so long as they are in game, we'll use them to the absolute limit of their ability.
Play nice while you butcher each other.
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Chalrynn Illyndar
Lightspeed Enterprises
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2008.09.13 00:34:00 -
[63]
Don't most of the super-alliances already have pretty well established jump bridge networks that already allow them to get from one of their little empires pretty quickly?
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Ampoliros
Shadow Company
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Posted - 2008.09.13 01:35:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ampoliros on 13/09/2008 01:35:11
Originally by: Truk Mei
Jump Clones were meant to help limit the effects of this loophole.
The only way it limits it is by providing it with a timer for free while preserving implants. If you're implant-less in a PvP, you can zip around the eve universe without a care in the world - the only time delay is in the time it takes to re-set clone, undock in pod, self destruct. 3 minutes to go from one side of EVE to the other, if you have the office setup to do it - so I don't understand how JC's are an issue at all considering the timer delay.
-----------------------------
Signature for sale :o |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 01:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place?
"Combat Recall"
Being able to return to your home base at a moment's notice and cut down on defensive response times. Apparently CCP thought there was something wrong with two thirds of an alliance's membership typically residing in empire space.
My response to their justification was that it would turn into yet another travel mechanic we didn't need, limit the power of choke points and station camping, allow people to circumvent implant loss, and allow alliances to control even more space. I don't enjoy always being right, especially this time ;[
Before, I would fly around in a clone worth billions, but now it makes little sense to carry more than two attribute implants per body. Minimizing implant losses is pretty much the main way JC's get used.
I also find it disturbing how we try to put standing limits on JC creation, when you're not restricted from jumping out of your body and leaving behind at all.
And the only place where JC's might matter for combat, on Titans and Motherships, they're pretty damn useless. Jump Clones are one of those features that has only bad things to the game. In their current form, they really should be abolished.
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Haks'he Lirky
Burning Bright Inc.
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Posted - 2008.09.13 02:01:00 -
[66]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Originally by: Crumplecorn
More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place?
"Combat Recall"
Being able to return to your home base at a moment's notice and cut down on defensive response times. Apparently CCP thought there was something wrong with two thirds of an alliance's membership typically residing in empire space.
My response to their justification was that it would turn into yet another travel mechanic we didn't need, limit the power of choke points and station camping, allow people to circumvent implant loss, and allow alliances to control even more space. I don't enjoy always being right, especially this time ;[
Before, I would fly around in a clone worth billions, but now it makes little sense to carry more than two attribute implants per body. Minimizing implant losses is pretty much the main way JC's get used.
I also find it disturbing how we try to put standing limits on JC creation, when you're not restricted from jumping out of your body and leaving behind at all.
And the only place where JC's might matter for combat, on Titans and Motherships, they're pretty damn useless. Jump Clones are one of those features that has only bad things to the game. In their current form, they really should be abolished.
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.13 02:28:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Jump clones allow the big alliances to be more attacking than defensive. This is by design. CCP would much rather players mixing it up than sitting around defending their patch. Defense is not fun. Think about the cold war - it was pretty boring if you're into explosions and shit.
Yes, there are less bored lone travelers for pirates to kill, but they've still got ratters, low-sec miners, lo-sec traders, and other PvPers. They've even got lone travelers occasionally trying to reseed their jump clones after destruction.
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
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b1zz
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 02:47:00 -
[68]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
limit the power of choke points and station camping,
This is a good thing.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
allow people to circumvent implant loss,
Also good. All that happened before was players who were strong out in 0.0 used them, and players who weren't used them also but stayed in high-sec even more than they do now. Before clones you could either buy and alt to experience 0.0, put them in and lose them at the first gate camp, or not use them and let the strong in 0.0 get stronger.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
and allow alliances to control even more space.
If it contributed to one alliance dominating and being able to lock down eve then that would be bad but that hasn't happened.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Before, I would fly around in a clone worth billions, but now it makes little sense to carry more than two attribute implants per body. Minimizing implant losses is pretty much the main way JC's get used.
How is this bad?
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Jump Clones are one of those features that has only bad things to the game. In their current form, they really should be abolished.
No they're not, and no they shouldn't.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 02:47:00 -
[69]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Yeah, let's screw up the game so it's more accessible for a few casuals, eh.
Originally by: b1zz
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
I hear WoW follows that principle.
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DesuSigs |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 02:51:00 -
[70]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Jump clones allow the big alliances to be more attacking than defensive. This is by design. CCP would much rather players mixing it up than sitting around defending their patch. Defense is not fun. Think about the cold war - it was pretty boring if you're into explosions and shit.
Yes, there are less bored lone travelers for pirates to kill, but they've still got ratters, low-sec miners, lo-sec traders, and other PvPers. They've even got lone travelers occasionally trying to reseed their jump clones after destruction.
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
Not everyone enjoys ninjas who appear, zap a few people and vanish in a ball of smoke every other hour.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
b1zz
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:00:00 -
[71]
Edited by: b1zz on 13/09/2008 03:01:18
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Yeah, let's screw up the game so it's more accessible for a few casuals, eh.
No, lets improve the game for the majority, who are casual.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
I hear WoW follows that principle.
What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Not everyone enjoys ninjas who appear, zap a few people and vanish in a ball of smoke every other hour.
Well these ninjas are on 24 hour delay.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:08:00 -
[72]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Yeah, let's screw up the game so it's more accessible for a few casuals, eh.
No, lets improve the game for the majority, who are casual.
If the majority are casual, just who were you evening the playing field against?
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
I hear WoW follows that principle.
What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
You misread, uh, your own post.
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DesuSigs |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:11:00 -
[73]
Originally by: b1zz
...What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Not everyone enjoys ninjas who appear, zap a few people and vanish in a ball of smoke every other hour.
Well these ninjas are on 24 hour delay.
First it's a game of consequence, as such it needs to take effort to achieve, the other game referred to not so much.
Ninjas being held at the gates is the current status, they're constantly trying for around the clock access to their jumpsuit pyjamas, when they've got them we're all doomed, things will be much more worse than the nano plague ever was.
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:14:00 -
[74]
Originally by: b1zz
No, lets improve the game for the majority, who are casual.
What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
Well these ninjas are on 24 hour delay.
First quote ... what facts are you pulling from that says the majority of the gamers are casual? Not that I have any to say otherwise, but seriously, we don't KNOW what the majority of anything is.
Second quote ... many players seem to find enjoyment and fun in immersion and playing in a game universe that has realistic and painful consequences, that almost always rewards teamwork over being alone, and constantly requires both thought and effort by those who want to exist in it. I just so happen to be one of those types of players, and it's also why I continue to play EvE. I see grinding for levels and grinding for superb equipment, which is the norm in every other mmo on the market, as work. Others see that as fun, or a mechanism for fun, or am I wrong?
Third quote ... they are still far out of reach. They can run operations against you every other day, and they call all the shots. It's just tactics, surely ... but is it helpful to immersion and game design? At one point, I think it was. But as with anything, players are learning how to abuse it in mega proportions. Developers aren't perfect, and I hope they see that techniques such as the MAX campaign are as game-breaking as nano's ever were.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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b1zz
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
He's missing the point. Jump clones are a device that evens the playing field for the casual player. It means that someone like me, who can only play for short periods, and has the time to maintain only one character, can still experience a lot of the game.
Yeah, let's screw up the game so it's more accessible for a few casuals, eh.
No, lets improve the game for the majority, who are casual.
If the majority are casual, just who were you evening the playing field against?
The minority hardcore gamer. Uhh...?
By the way, I don't know that the majority are casual, just as you don't know if the majority are not casual. CCP probably has some stats on that though, and they made the call.
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: b1zz
This is a game, and it needs to be fun, for everyone.
I hear WoW follows that principle.
What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
You misread, uh, your own post.
Ohhhh, now I understand. You want the game to be fun only for you.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:37:00 -
[76]
Originally by: b1zz
The minority hardcore gamer. Uhh...?
So the majority need game mechanics to help them compete with a minority?
Originally by: b1zz
Ohhhh, now I understand. You want the game to be fun only for you.
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DesuSigs |
b1zz
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:42:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: b1zz
No, lets improve the game for the majority, who are casual.
What, the principle of having fun? So Eve should be, like a job, is that what you're saying?
Well these ninjas are on 24 hour delay.
Second quote ... many players seem to find enjoyment and fun in immersion and playing in a game universe that has realistic and painful consequences, that almost always rewards teamwork over being alone, and constantly requires both thought and effort by those who want to exist in it. I just so happen to be one of those types of players, and it's also why I continue to play EvE. I see grinding for levels and grinding for superb equipment, which is the norm in every other mmo on the market, as work. Others see that as fun, or a mechanism for fun, or am I wrong?
CCP have to strike a balance. How you enjoy the game is not necessarily how others would, but we all want to play. Before jump clones and before alts the concurrent players record was around 5000-10000. After, was up to 40000. I think the game is still harsh enough - don't get me wrong, I want some risk as well.
Originally by: Ruze
Third quote ... they are still far out of reach. They can run operations against you every other day, and they call all the shots. It's just tactics, surely ... but is it helpful to immersion and game design? At one point, I think it was. But as with anything, players are learning how to abuse it in mega proportions. Developers aren't perfect, and I hope they see that techniques such as the MAX campaign are as game-breaking as nano's ever were.
I don't understand why you can't use their tactics against them. The MAX campaign tactics can be used against BoB. I can't see CCP changing it unless it becomes evident that just a small advantage in numbers and skill can snowball into unstopability and eventual domination of the eve world.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
|
Posted - 2008.09.13 03:44:00 -
[78]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
In their current form, they really should be abolished.
Originally by: Haks'he Lirky
A wise gamer like your self should know that it's not possible to "abolish" a feature like that, I think you are more than capable of finding proposals to make it better without the use of that word.
Bolded important part.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.13 03:45:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ruze
I don't understand why you can't use their tactics against them. The MAX campaign tactics can be used against BoB. I can't see CCP changing it unless it becomes evident that just a small advantage in numbers and skill can snowball into unstopability and eventual domination of the eve world.
Give every pilot in the game an unlimited supply of titans and the skills to use them.
Since all pilots will be able to use the same tactics, obviously the game will be fine.
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DesuSigs |
b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.13 03:54:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ruze
I don't understand why you can't use their tactics against them. The MAX campaign tactics can be used against BoB. I can't see CCP changing it unless it becomes evident that just a small advantage in numbers and skill can snowball into unstopability and eventual domination of the eve world.
Give every pilot in the game an unlimited supply of titans and the skills to use them.
Since all pilots will be able to use the same tactics, obviously the game will be fine.
I smell a straw man argument. Fail. Try again.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.13 03:57:00 -
[81]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Ruze
I don't understand why you can't use their tactics against them. The MAX campaign tactics can be used against BoB. I can't see CCP changing it unless it becomes evident that just a small advantage in numbers and skill can snowball into unstopability and eventual domination of the eve world.
Give every pilot in the game an unlimited supply of titans and the skills to use them.
Since all pilots will be able to use the same tactics, obviously the game will be fine.
I smell a straw man argument. Fail. Try again.
I think you'll find it's actually an example of why your argument doesn't work.
To say it plainly - just because two people have equal access to the same tactic, does not justify the tactic's existence.
But nice attempt at a witty comeback.
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DesuSigs |
DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.09.13 04:04:00 -
[82]
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 13/09/2008 04:04:02
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
limit the power of choke points and station camping,
This is a good thing.
It's good for the player who would otherwise be inconvenienced, its bad for the game. Being able to control others with presence alone is good. JC's reduce tactical options.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
allow people to circumvent implant loss,
Also good. All that happened before was players who were strong out in 0.0 used them, and players who weren't used them also but stayed in high-sec even more than they do now. Before clones you could either buy and alt to experience 0.0, put them in and lose them at the first gate camp, or not use them and let the strong in 0.0 get stronger.
Players being afraid to lose implants is nothing new and it will never go away, even when it is totally meaningless. All it did was give people a quality implant clone to speed their training when they aren't pvping/playing. Made implants more of a requirement in EVE than an option, which puts meaningless pressure on new players. It's wrong, and you're wrong to suggest otherwise.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
and allow alliances to control even more space.
If it contributed to one alliance dominating and being able to lock down eve then that would be bad but that hasn't happened.
Erm, so its only a problem if one alliance can lock down the whole of EVE? But its not a problem if one alliance can dominate *only* a third of the map? Your threshold of absurdity is absurdly high.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Before, I would fly around in a clone worth billions, but now it makes little sense to carry more than two attribute implants per body. Minimizing implant losses is pretty much the main way JC's get used.
How is this bad?
Because its a bad form of meta gaming. You're taking a mechanic designed for one thing, and using it to circumvent rules like: "implants are permanent and cannot be removed". Having multiple bodies with multiple options with zero cost or drawback is the same thing. You're probably one of those people who thought using bookmarks to circumvent travel rules and create instajumps was the whole point of bookmarks.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Jump Clones are one of those features that has only bad things to the game. In their current form, they really should be abolished.
No they're not, and no they shouldn't.
Well, you're wrong. Your reference for what is good and bad is based on what people want. That's great if you're Santa Claus, but not how you make games. You and I might benefit from Jump Clones, but we do not.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.13 05:45:00 -
[83]
Edited by: b1zz on 13/09/2008 05:50:25
Originally by: Crumplecorn
To say it plainly - just because two people have equal access to the same tactic, does not justify the tactic's existence.
Of course it does. No one is getting an advantage so what's the problem, that they're more imaginative than you? If you're arguing that jump clones don't fit the game world I argue they do - they fit perfectly in eve's clone society. The age of jump pilots has only just begun in the eve story. Jump clones are a natural progression from that technology. Such tech would also, naturally, lead to true immortality and teleportation in fact, but in the interest of game-play I don't see CCP introducing those.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
It's good for the player who would otherwise be inconvenienced, its bad for the game. Being able to control others with presence alone is good. JC's reduce tactical options.
You wouldn't be able to control others with presence regardless because of alts. And JC reduce defensive options, but increase offensive options, so it all evens out in the end, only with jump clones players aren't inconvenienced. It's good for the game <-- look, I bolded to make my argument more valid.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
All it did was give people a quality implant clone to speed their training when they aren't pvping/playing.
And this is bad, how?
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Made implants more of a requirement in EVE than an option, which puts meaningless pressure on new players.
The introduction of jump clones has not made implants 'more of a requirement' than they were before jump clones, everyone still fitted them, they just did not leave high-sec. And implants being a requirement is a whole other argument that includes removing learning skills - not gonna discuss that here.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
It's wrong, and you're wrong to suggest otherwise.
Ending with statements like this does nothing to help your arguments
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Erm, so its only a problem if one alliance can lock down the whole of EVE? But its not a problem if one alliance can dominate *only* a third of the map? Your threshold of absurdity is absurdly high.
Erm, no, 1/3 is not a problem. Why would it be? The game is supposed to be a sandbox. CCP will say to the players if you don't like it go and do something about it. What would your accesptable percentage of control be, 1/4, 1/5, 1/37.45671? It's debatable if CCP would even intervene if one alliance took over all of 0.0. Last year it looked like the Goons almost did control all, they now don't. Game working just fine.
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Because its a bad form of meta gaming. You're taking a mechanic designed for one thing, and using it to circumvent rules like: "implants are permanent and cannot be removed". Having multiple bodies with multiple options with zero cost or drawback is the same thing. You're probably one of those people who thought using bookmarks to circumvent travel rules and create instajumps was the whole point of bookmarks.
No, I'm not one of those people. You don't know me so don't make stupid blind generalizations if you want to be taken seriously. Concentrate on your argument not me.
Yes, jump clones are an addendum to a rule that waters down the original intent. However, CCP have to adapt if something is not working. They're not going to stubornly refuse to change anything out of some gaming ideal when the game is going down the gurgler. They could remove the learning skills, skill implants and possibly jump clones aswell, but you'd still have the problem of casual players being restricted to their immediate location, and so not having as much fun as the hardcore gamers. Basically, remove jump clones and you screw with the casuals - do CCP want to do that.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2008.09.13 05:47:00 -
[84]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: Crumplecorn
To say it plainly - just because two people have equal access to the same tactic, does not justify the tactic's existence.
Of course it does.
No, it really, really doesn't. Apply a modi****of thought before posting.
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DesuSigs |
Raimo
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.09.13 07:02:00 -
[85]
I don't swap clones to be risk averse, quite the contrary... Some of my combat clones cost more than my learning/ PVE one. Part of the rush of EVE PVP is the fear of losing my implants and in some cases, my ship.
I also don't want to have to specialize on one char even more than I already have to due to the nature of the skill system. JC's at least allow me to optimize different tactics with the ships I can fly, while maintaining some speed in skilling. But currently this only applies if I play very casually, I.e. less than 3-4 times a week.
I don't see why being able to swap between implant sets more frequently would be a bad thing. You're still stuck with the implants you do plug in, it's not the same as being able to remove them.
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b1zz
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Posted - 2008.09.13 07:32:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
No, it really, really doesn't. Apply a modi****of thought before posting.
Heh :). No they don't. I will try to think next time Crumplecorn, I promise.
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Krecian
Gallente
United Trade Coalition
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:18:00 -
[87]
Actually good sir, equal access does not make any tactic valid. If I may call to a recent nerf of the nanos as an example. Everybody has access to the skills to access the mods necessary to make a good nano-ship. However, since it was ruled to be game-breaking and thus it has been balanced out.
I guess that blows the whole "equal access" idea out of the water eigh?
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"The first rock thrown again, welcome to hell little saint. Mother Gia in slaughter, welcome to paradise soldier." -Nightwish, Planet Hell |
Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:23:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Krecian
Actually good sir, equal access does not make any tactic valid. If I may call to a recent nerf of the nanos as an example. Everybody has access to the skills to access the mods necessary to make a good nano-ship. However, since it was ruled to be game-breaking and thus it has been balanced out.
I guess that blows the whole "equal access" idea out of the water eigh?
I don't think 'equal access' is a valid argument either. I guess it's when on tactic vastly outweighs any counter or comparative tactic.
When your only real option to beat a nano is to fly a nano, in example.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Korizan
Oort Cloud Industries
Ultionis Quietus
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:36:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Korizan on 13/09/2008 14:41:11
Edited by: Korizan on 13/09/2008 14:39:26
Personnaly I think the current system for jumping station to station , what most people call jump cloning should remain the same.
However for jumping to a clone VAT on a ship I believe it should be reduced or MAYBE even removed.
This would perhaps make the ship clone VATs a lot more useful.
And before you say it is too powerful, what the about jump bridges and making 0.0 smaller.
Of course this would be mute IF WE COULD JUST GO WITH OUR SHIPS IN THE CARRIERS.
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Ruze
Amarr
No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2008.09.13 14:48:00 -
[90]
I just think jump-clone range should be limited to your region, and that's with skills. If your on the other side of your region, and a war breaks out, BAM, you can jump clone to your station or mothership and defend it.
Limit it to a region, with skills (like the trade skills). In station with level 1, in system level 2, in five systems level 3, in 10 systems level 4, 20 systems level 5 (that number scheme is probably wrong, just off the top of my head).
Next skill, allow for faster times. Level 1, 24 hours. Level 2, 20. Level 3, 18. Level 4, 14. Level 5, 10.
Maxed skills, you can jump every 10 hours, just over twice as much as someone with minimum skills.
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
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Maxpie
Carrion Crows
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Posted - 2008.09.13 15:05:00 -
[91]
I know this topic has been beaten to death, even within this thread, but for people who usually play the same time each day (whether they are casual or hardcore), I think the 24 hour limit should be changed. In effect it is a 48 hour wait. I would simply make it once per downtime or, better yet, an 18 hour limit. I would not make it skill based, I just don't think that adds anything to the game.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2008.09.13 15:25:00 -
[92]
that's what i wanted to add aswell... slightly below 24h. 18,20, 22 whatever.
and about the monkey that can go anywhere? heck we did/do that with medi clones anyway - corp office spam ftw. JCs make that a lil easier, sure. but mainly, they're for evil snake sets, "learning clones" and even industrial clones. not sure if i like that part but it's necessary to flatten the effects of imps. which is also necessary due to imbalanced birth stats (check chruker). imagine, they screwed this and learning skills... ohboy...
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putting the gist back into logistics |
Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2008.09.13 15:29:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Maxpie
I know this topic has been beaten to death, even within this thread, but for people who usually play the same time each day (whether they are casual or hardcore), I think the 24 hour limit should be changed. In effect it is a 48 hour wait. I would simply make it once per downtime or, better yet, an 18 hour limit. I would not make it skill based, I just don't think that adds anything to the game.
48 hour wait? Is it now, you jump then you emidiatelly sit around with nothing to do but waiting to jump again, why then jump in the first place?
These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade! |
Raimo
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.09.13 15:48:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Maxpie
I know this topic has been beaten to death, even within this thread, but for people who usually play the same time each day (whether they are casual or hardcore), I think the 24 hour limit should be changed. In effect it is a 48 hour wait. I would simply make it once per downtime or, better yet, an 18 hour limit. I would not make it skill based, I just don't think that adds anything to the game.
I could live with that.
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Ehronn
Caldari
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.13 16:03:00 -
[95]
My idea on the jumpclones is I think it would be the biggest help to move more carebears into lowsec/0.0 imo.
Cause as it is now, let say you and your buddies wanna make a quick trip to lowsec/0.0 and do some pvp and just example the trip only lasts 30mins to an hour and the gang falls apart. Or for whatever reason it ends. So now you think you wasted time since you could still be in that +5 learning clone but you just wasted a 24 hour jumpclone for 20-30 min romp to pvp with and now it's over.
So some would see it better off just to stay in "carebear" mode rather than venture off into lowsec or 0.0 just to protect their implant investments.
My opinion is if jumpclone timer was lowered to say like 12 hours then it would help bring new blood into pvp lowsec/0.0 willing to try it out since now they could spend half the day "carebearing" and half the day pvp'ing and back and forth.
of course there's downsides to it all hehe, but I sure would love a reduced jumpclone timer, especially if I cancel my alt since it will allow my to pvp more often, without having to plan ahead to pvp so I get the best out of my learning clone and whatnot.
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Dysfunctional Playground |
Grapez
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.13 16:13:00 -
[96]
There should be a price for clone jumping.
Jump clones are one of those things that make Eve "smaller" than it used to be. This is something simple that can be changed.
I proposed that everytime you clone jump, it costs ISK. The cost increases by an order of magnitude for each jump clone that you have. This should be combined with an easy, remote way to destroy jump clones as well.
Making a clone jump costs the following, based on total number of clones owned by the jumpee:
1 jump clone: 10,000 ISK
2 jump clones: 100,000 ISK
3 jump clones: 1,000,000 ISK
4 jump clones: 10,000,000 ISK
5 jump clones: 100,000,000 ISK
This will force people to be careful about their jump clone selection. Can you afford to have that third jump clone, even if it's rarely used and only there for the odd alliance op?
You get the idea.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.09.13 17:20:00 -
[97]
Make jump clone timer so we can jump every 12 hours please.
Make each jump cost 5 million isk each I think. 1st and 2nd.
Dont make it entirely cost related, the uber rich could bounce around the universe all day every day.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.09.13 17:20:00 -
[98]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 13/09/2008 17:21:59
Sorry, lag.
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5pinDizzy
Amarr
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.09.13 17:21:00 -
[99]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 13/09/2008 17:22:18
Sorry, lag, made me multiple post then logged me out. lol
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.09.13 17:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
It's good for the player who would otherwise be inconvenienced, its bad for the game. Being able to control others with presence alone is good. JC's reduce tactical options.
You wouldn't be able to control others with presence regardless because of alts. And JC reduce defensive options, but increase offensive options, so it all evens out in the end, only with jump clones players aren't inconvenienced. It's good for the game <-- look, I bolded to make my argument more valid.
Controlling real characters with real assets isn't invalidated by alts. That's a really horrible argument. You can't control alts because people aren't afraid to die, not because they aren't subject to the same enforcement camping allows.
Your other sentence makes no sense.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
All it did was give people a quality implant clone to speed their training when they aren't pvping/playing.
And this is bad, how?
You're asking me to explain the really obvious. My guess is you already understand how that could be construed as negative.
If don't know, then ask again and I'll do my best to help you b1zz.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Made implants more of a requirement in EVE than an option, which puts meaningless pressure on new players.
The introduction of jump clones has not made implants 'more of a requirement' than they were before jump clones, everyone still fitted them, they just did not leave high-sec. And implants being a requirement is a whole other argument that includes removing learning skills - not gonna discuss that here.
More people are living in empire than ever before, so please don't imply the freedom to temporarily remove implants did anything on that front. You can't prove it or even reasonably argue it.
Even if you don't agree implants on the whole are in greater demand than before, higher quality implants definitely are. Conveniently for me, that has the same effect: Raising the competitive requirements and pressure on newbies in a pointless way.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
It's wrong, and you're wrong to suggest otherwise.
Ending with statements like this does nothing to help your arguments
I disagree. You responded in exactly the same fashion.
Originally by: b1zz
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Erm, so its only a problem if one alliance can lock down the whole of EVE? But its not a problem if one alliance can dominate *only* a third of the map? Your threshold of absurdity is absurdly high.
Erm, no, 1/3 is not a problem. Why would it be? The game is supposed to be a sandbox. CCP will say to the players if you don't like it go and do something about it. What would your accesptable percentage of control be, 1/4, 1/5, 1/37.45671? It's debatable if CCP would even intervene if one alliance took over all of 0.0. Last year it looked like the Goons almost did control all, they now don't. Game working just fine.
Okay, I overestimated your background knowledge. There is nothing wrong with a single entity controlling any amount of space. When a single entity averaging ~150 pilots daily can put a stranglehold on a half dozen regions at the same time, then there's an issue.
If BoB/RA could reasonably control one region before, adding JC's lowers the effort. They're not going stop and enjoy the slack. They're going to keep pushing and playing at their limits to expand even further. CCP later introduced constellation Sovereignty because they saw smaller entities being driven out where they were previously protected by distance.
You argued JC's helped people with entering 0.0, which is flat out wrong. Circumventing gatecamps and lowering price of death is meaningless when your previously unimportant corner of space is subject to more incursions.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.09.13 17:58:00 -
[101]
Originally by: b1zz
Yes, jump clones are an addendum to a rule that waters down the original intent. However, CCP have to adapt if something is not working. They're not going to stubornly refuse to change anything out of some gaming ideal when the game is going down the gurgler. They could remove the learning skills, skill implants and possibly jump clones aswell, but you'd still have the problem of casual players being restricted to their immediate location, and so not having as much fun as the hardcore gamers. Basically, remove jump clones and you screw with the casuals - do CCP want to do that.
The problem of casual players being restricted to their immediate location? I didn't know it was a problem to place greater emphasis on local market forces and politics. That's what JC's are: a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
As much as you're preaching for the little guy, b1zz, casual players don't deserve special treatment in 0.0 when they can't compete with those who play more. Any attempts to do so are futile. Hardcore players will always make the best use of new mechanics.
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