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Clone jumping 24 hour limit

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Steppa Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:18:00 - [1] I can honestly say that I don't recall every seeing a thread on this topic. If it's been beat to death, pardon the few seconds out of your life I'm stealing for you to read this far. 1) Has CCP ever given a rationale behind limiting clone-jumping to 1 per RL day? 2) Assuming no, why should there be such a rectrictive limit? 3) Why not make it skills-based and/or isk-based to allow for more per day? If we were allowed to bounce around, even twice per day, it would impact the market quite a bit (especially in all issues relating to mission-running). Perhaps this is the reason it's one per, but I don't know. Thoughts?
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:20:00 - [2] Originally by: Steppa 1) Has CCP ever given a rationale behind limiting clone-jumping to 1 per RL day? Yes.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:21:00 - [3] Originally by: Steppa If it's been beat to death, pardon the few seconds out of your life I'm stealing for you to read this far. It has been, please do an extensive search... _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Alora Venoda GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:22:00 - [4] i agree it should be shorter, perhaps a skill that cuts the time by 10% each level? i am pretty sure this limit was put in back when they first added jump clones, and have never considered changing it. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:24:00 - [5] More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place? - DesuSigs
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:24:00 - [6] Personally, the universe is already small enough due to clone jumping. Maybe if they limited it in maximum distance, just like the trading skills, then we could make a skill for quicker jumping. But when you can go from one point to the other automagically, it means that more nulsec players can abuse hisec markets without being limited to how much the space they claim can actually support. It also means that pirates can move to whatever losec region has the most activity quick and easily. So, yeah, give it a boosting skill to the number of hours it allows you to jump. And then please God limit the number of systems you can jump between, with max maybe being neighboring regions. EvE is small enough, personally. We don't need more superhighways, we really didn't need warp to zero (well, bookmarks were out of control, I admit), and jump clones are just another way of taking the massive size of EvE away. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Tao Han Ginnungagaps Rymdfarargille Blade.	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:26:00 - [7] I really dont think they should shorten the time, its a decision you will have to make and a decision you will have to stand by. Also, making the eve universe smaller (faster to travel in) isnt necessary, warp to 0 made it small enough. Disclaimer, I like WTZ.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:34:00 - [8] I'm curious how the OP thinks twice a day clone jumping impacts mission running. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:36:00 - [9] I say 12 hours is good.
SuckySycky5dolla	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:38:00 - [10] I'd be in favor of twice a day improvement. Make 2nd jump cost 10mil or something. Nice isk sink.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:44:00 - [11] Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now. Don't believe me? How many players can rat in a given nulsec system, and still maintain the money's necessary to replace ships and pay for transportations? How many miners can mine in that system? Taking all forms of nulsec profitability, and then compare it to alliances like BoB or Goon. Do you honestly think their systems, despite holding whole regions, can provide enough money to support their major wars? Nulsec space being limited in resources is the natural limitation imposed on the size of alliances. Jump clones allow them to work around those limitations by providing their many members the means to use resources from other locations ... including the infinite, non-competition based resource of missioning ... to further cement their hold on vast swaths of territory that would not be able to support them otherwise. Provide less time between jump clones, while maintianing the unlimited range, and you are supporting the hold older alliances have in nulsec, and shooting down the efforts of any new groups moving into those areas. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:46:00 - [12] Jump clones should be removed. - DesuSigs
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:48:00 - [13] Edited by: b1zz on 12/09/2008 15:51:36 Originally by: Crumplecorn More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place? It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. ie. It's a device to get players into 0.0. It's also there to stop players being chained to their alliances in 0.0, so when the shit hit the fan they can get out there in a hurry. Originally by: SuckySycky5dolla I'd be in favor of twice a day improvement. Make 2nd jump cost 10mil or something. Nice isk sink. Not going to happen. 24 hours is more than generous. Any less and we start to get into teleporter range. This is not Star Trek and you should not be able to be here, there, and in between at the same time. Edit: additional point.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:55:00 - [14] Originally by: b1zz Originally by: Crumplecorn More importantly, has CCP ever given a rationale behind adding jump clones in the first place? It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. It's also there to stop players being chained to their alliances in 0.0, so when the shit hit the fan they can get out there in a hurry. Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse? - DesuSigs
Shidhe Minmatar The Babylon5 Consortuim	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:56:00 - [15] An interesting argument. There was a huge amount of discussion when jump clones were introduced, and many players were against them (including myself). Subsequently I thought that they were probably a good idea. Certainly when I was building MS in 0.0 some time ago it would have been much more difficult without them. But then that leads to Ruze's point. As a political point, do we want the present landscape of 0.0 to continue or not? CCP's delay over doing anything about moon minerals suggests to me that they want to maintain the status quo there. Originally by: Ruze Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now. ... Nulsec space being limited in resources is the natural limitation imposed on the size of alliances. Jump clones allow them to work around those limitations by providing their many members the means to use resources from other locations ... including the infinite, non-competition based resource of missioning ... to further cement their hold on vast swaths of territory that would not be able to support them otherwise.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:57:00 - [16] Originally by: b1zz Edited by: b1zz on 12/09/2008 15:51:36 It's basically an implant saving device, so you don't have to risk expensive implants when you go pew pew. ie. It's a device to get players into 0.0. . . . Not going to happen. 24 hours is more than generous. Any less and we start to get into teleporter range. This is not Star Trek and you should not be able to be here, there, and in between at the same time. Edit: additional point. Which is kinda why they have failed as a PvP encouraging device. Loose an entire day of good SP training every time you want to go fight? Sounds like a huge encouragement to avoid PvP and stay where it is safe. I would be ok with jump clones being removed or such if there was a way to protect (or remove) learning implants. Otherwise something like 'limited range but quick turnover' jumpclones, like a 15 minute wait if you are in the same system.
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 15:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Ruze Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now. This is a game. You cannot expect the players who run those alliances to be on 24hour attack watch. They would get bored very quickly. Jump clones are there to remove some tedium and allow alliances to realistically hold territory.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 - [18] Originally by: b1zz Originally by: Ruze Clone Jumping is one of the prime reasons why Nulsec space is static, and big alliances can hold the size of space they do now. This is a game. You cannot expect the players who run those alliances to be on 24hour attack watch. They would get bored very quickly. Jump clones are there to remove some tedium and allow alliances to realistically hold territory. It still bypasses the isk-producing limitations of that space. Let's make up a figure that I think might be close to accurate: Say a 100-man corporation can survive with a single system, including five moons, five belts, a -.5 security status, and exploration. They have to maintain POS's, they have to mine the minerals, they'd have to produce and transport those minerals, etc, etc. Instead, one corporation can hold five-ten systems more easily, by controlling two gateway systems, letting a dozen miners and another half dozen ratters chain belts, while the other 80 corp members are all jump-cloned into hisec missioning, trading, whatnot. Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability. You can't BEAT that corporation, without having a larger one. It does happen, don't get me wrong. But for many new, starter corps, getting out into 0.0 is overly difficult, because you can kill a corporations nulsec assets and producers, and still not defeat that corporation or break it's hold. You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 - [19] You've not been looking then, there's a thread every other day on the topic. This is not the heartstone you're looking for... These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Crumplecorn Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse? No. Originally by: Nekopyat Which is kinda why they have failed as a PvP encouraging device. Loose an entire day of good SP training every time you want to go fight? Sounds like a huge encouragement to avoid PvP and stay where it is safe. They haven't failed at all. Fit some less expensive +3 implants. Fit some combat implants. Go without and lose a day! Oh noes. I dunno what you guys are on about. Jump clones are one of the few devices in this game that are perfect. I just got my jump clones and suddenly I feel very free wanting go explore and have fun.
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:11:00 - [21] My PVP/0.0 clone got 2 +3 implants. Cheap if you dont get podded too often, and you barely lose SP if you just train the skills which use the 2 implants you have. (I got willpower + perception and only train gunnery and spaceship command skills when in that clone).
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:18:00 - [22] Originally by: Ruze Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability. Use your imagination and feint an attack here, then 12 hours later attack there, exploiting the 24hr limit. Originally by: Ruze You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support. Too much advantage for the attacker. Fleet battles victories should be based actual conflicts, not annihilations of defenseless installations.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:18:00 - [23] Originally by: b1zz Originally by: Crumplecorn Any that isn't just catering to the risk/commitment averse? No. That's what I thought. - DesuSigs
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:24:00 - [24] Originally by: b1zz Originally by: Ruze Major security alert? Bam, they jump clone back. Heck, if it's a much larger corporation of 500-1000, they could only have 1/5th online, but the fleet that can be generated by that 1/5th is still huge. Meanwhile, they are still not limited to their space and it's profitability. Use your imagination and feint an attack here, then 12 hours later attack there, exploiting the 24hr limit. Originally by: Ruze You can put far more players in a small area than it would otherwise be able to support. Too much advantage for the attacker. Fleet battles victories should be based actual conflicts, not annihilations of defenseless installations. My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function? Why must these great 0.0 alliances rely on hisec, despite their conquering many systems and controlling vast swaths of territories? It comes down to the fact that, despite how great those nulsec rewards sound, if the players who participate in those fights and those corporations all actually LIVED there, they would be no better, and in most cases far worse off, than the average hisec dweller. Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Furb Killer Gallente The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:29:00 - [25] Stealth high sec whine topic now?
b1zz	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:34:00 - [26] Originally by: Ruze My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function? Maybe nulsec is boring. I don't know. I'm sure they would stay out there if there were interesting and fun things to do. I think the point of jump clones is that they allow 0.0 corps NOT to be tied to 0.0. Are you saying that because they are successful out in 0.0 they should be stuck out there. At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone.
Winterblink Body Count Inc.	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Furb Killer Stealth high sec whine topic now? Isn't everything these days? Hell, people whinging about the pricing of the new ship models in the EVE store are also making a veiled whinges about the risk/reward of highsec level 4s. :P warp drive active \| nature vraie
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.12 16:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Furb Killer Stealth high sec whine topic now? Isn't everything these days? Hell, people whinging about the pricing of the new ship models in the EVE store are also making a veiled whinges about the risk/reward of highsec level 4s. :P It's true. Even the one's whining about those whining about hisec are trying to somehow emphasize that hisec is overpowered and needs nerfed. It never ends ... Originally by: CCP Greyscale consciously deciding not to join a corp is pretty much deciding that you don't want to have fun
Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.12 17:00:00 - [29] Originally by: b1zz Originally by: Ruze My main point is why can a player not LIVE in nulsec? Better put, if a corporation claims an area of space, why must they still be tied to hisec in order to function? Maybe nulsec is boring. I don't know. I'm sure they would stay out there if there were interesting and fun things to do. I think the point of jump clones is that they allow 0.0 corps NOT to be tied to 0.0. Are you saying that because they are successful out in 0.0 they should be stuck out there. At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone. MAX agrees.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.09.12 17:06:00 - [30] Originally by: b1zz At the end of the day jump clones are a freeing device, and in that regard they are a very very very very very good thing, for everyone. I'd be more free if I could jump instantly to any system with no limitations. And had infinite ISK when I got there. ... Jump clones should be removed. - DesuSigs

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