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Veneth	Posted - 2004.06.18 15:34:00 - [61] All we can hope for is that CCP tries to rectify this. I really don't think it was intentional of them to cripple projectile weapons so bady Low Rof, Low DoT, Low Ammo holds. Low power usage. The cons already outweigh the pros. They should get a little better tracking than some other guns if you ask me. give them a reason to be used :)
Jaabaa Prime	Posted - 2004.06.18 16:15:00 - [62] Now that all the weapons have been nerfed with tracking/signature radius/transversal speed calculations, it would really appear that the only viable battleships left in the game, even for a fleet battle are the scorp and the raven. Have missiles been hit the same was ? I was under the impression that the "normal" missiles (not FoF or Defenders) were classified as "targeted" missiles. Does the "launcher" tracking speed effect the chances of a missile's hit ? Does the launcher even have a tracking speed ? Are missiles the only thing worth using anymore ? I know this post has a rather large portion of sarcasm, but the changes made by CCP can by no means be considered as tuning. This time the changes have once again been drastic. CCP should consider changing the first line of the EULA from: ESRB Notice: Game Experience May Change During Online Play to ESRB Notice: Game Experience Drascitcally Changes During Patches Between Online Play As you can guess I'm a Minmatar Tempest pilot, and I am now considering doing the same thing that Iluyen is doing in 2 weeks, quit EVE. After being a paying customer for well over a year, and a beta tester before that, I want to play and enjoy it after a day at work. Not constantly fight against lag and CCP's short sightedness.
Tar om	Posted - 2004.06.19 10:58:00 - [63] I think GardenerofEden had summed it all up really. It would be interesting to see an official response to such a well reasoned and well researched post. I think it merits one. Tar om -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
ArchAngle	Posted - 2004.06.19 11:14:00 - [64] first of all the fact that i have to put cruser wepons or frig wepons on a BS or cruser is crap i think a ship class should be locked to the type fo wwepoon they were disgned for and new anti frig wepons shoudl be made
Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.06.20 09:18:00 - [65] The way i used to engage targets was: lock them up at 70km and fire on them as they approached me from about 60km-15km with 6 1400mm with emp, btw i was stationary while they were approaching so my 1400s could track better. Also had a cruise missile launcher and a siege missile launcher with cruise missiles in both. Now if u think about it while a target is approaching u its not obiting u so they r basically in 1 place while they approach(just getting bigger in ur gunsights) and it was quite easy to take out the 4 cruisers and 5 figates befor any of them came seriously close or did any dammage(i didn't even have to use my missiles, they were for emergencies). Now im using 4 1200s with emp cause the optimal range has increased and 2 425s with emp + 2 siege launchers with cruise and torp (dont give me any advise on setups please as id like to find my own and not share it with anyone). And now im lucky if i can destroy the first cruiser befor all the others start circling(now i have to move otherwise i get ganked). Currently i get 20% to 30% hits inside opt + falloff if im not moving and they r approaching from 70km, if however im moving i might get 10% hits at optimal range(i tend to pick a direction and move instead of orbiting again to give my guns better tracking). Well thats my rant flame away! All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
Acks	Posted - 2004.06.20 09:20:00 - [66] Edited by: Acks on 20/06/2004 09:22:12 just realized my rant goes unoticed CCP doesnt care one bit about any of us. so its all wasted.
Sevanna	Posted - 2004.06.20 12:02:00 - [67] hmm.... been focusing on tempest piloting and projectiles since i started.. Quote: Minmatar Battleship / Rank 8 / SP: 2048000 of 2048000 down the drain... how about this.. ccp, gimme back free days for each day i used in training this .... what to call it... ermm.... not sure, but calling it a battleship is a joke... well, i guess its over to the raven and start training upp the missle skills, since Tomb obviously favors these by far..... or just head over to the frig and start ganking battleships =)) yeh.. and missles are cheap in production now.. woohooo :: rebell against opression ::
Beseb	Posted - 2004.06.20 17:24:00 - [68] I seriously don't know what is wrong with some of you Tempest pilots. My experience post patch is so different, I have to wonder if we are playing the same game. I too have level 5 in all DPS related skills and PC/NPC hunting is working exactly as advertised. Frigates still pop with one shot from the 1400s at 60k+ and cruisers can't cross the 40k barrier before they vaporize. It's clear that the mechanics are working properly, which means there must be a client specific anamoly causing these people trouble. FWIW, no one in my corp have these problems, their experience is the same as mine.
Xelios	Posted - 2004.06.20 19:40:00 - [69] Beseb, what damage are you doing on your 1400's? 200-350 a hit with EMP? Now look at the ROF of your guns. With 3 gyro II's and good skills it should be about 13 seconds. That's 23 dps average. I've trained projectile and minmatar related skills for the past 3 months, my energy skills are mediocre at best (lvl 3 in L energy and Amarr bs), yet in my Arma with just 2 C4S I and a single Tracking Comp II I hit for 100-200 a hit with radio, from 90km, every 4.9 seconds. That's over 30 dps average, with RADIO. So to get damage with 3 gyro II, 2 tracking comp IIs, EMP L ammo and top skills from a 1400mm that's lower than the damage from a mega beam laser with shoddy skills and only 3 weapon modules... doesn't that seem a bit odd to you? If you've never tried anything other than 1400's then the changes won't seem that bad to you, but try flying an amarr ship with beams on and you'll see the difference this patch has made. The Tempest isn't 'useless', but it's now far less useful than the other battleships out there.
Worlocke	Posted - 2004.06.20 20:06:00 - [70] Edited by: Worlocke on 20/06/2004 20:08:47 I have always flown a Tempest. Even when Projectile weapons sucked, I had a Tempest and had to learn to use Lasers, so I took the time to train the skills for it Large Energy turret lvl 4 and controlled bursts lvl 4. Then CCP decides to give BS specific bonuses. Lasers are useless to me so I take the time to train Large projectiles to LVL 5 1280000 skill points and Minmatar BS lvl 5 2048000 SP's. Now CCP, do you expect me to be happy with the fact that I have wasted nearly 4 million skill points training for weapons that are useless to me? I don't get a laser bonus on my ship so I can't realistically go back to lasers and I can't hit a friggin thing with my projectiles so they are just as useless. Honestly, who the heck is the BRAINS behind this one? 13 months I have been paying you for this game and am not asking for much, I have put up with all the problems from day 1 and have stood by this game. I am not asking for much, but I am asking for BALANCE! Who can honestly say before the patch that the Tempest was TOO POWERFUL? If that was the case we would all have been in a Tempest, but that was not the case. I have put up with a lot and so have the rest of us in this game, but how much do you think we will put up with when 4 MILLION skill points are rendered useless, because someone at CCP does not know what he is doing. "No beast so fierce knows but some touch of pity. But I know none and therefore am no beast."
Jakal	Posted - 2004.06.20 23:17:00 - [71] Edited by: Jakal on 20/06/2004 23:51:36 Well i dont mean to be insulting but, anyone still using large progectiles on a tempest is a MORON. ive switched to useing hybrids on my tempest because i can do better damage, the energy use isn't worth mentioning imo. i have a tempest, but not when the new missle skills come out, im getting in a raven. and anyone who says the low ROF of cannons is because of recoil has never heard of muzzel breaks and recoiless cannons. WHERE ARE MY 1000mm RECOILESS CANNONS? if anything the low ROF would be to keep the barrels from over heating. P.S. why do 1400s have such a bad tracking? I think its becuase the poor gunner can only turn that traverse crank so fast. But if that 3250 MWs of power isn't for the traversing motors, it must be for the high speed recoil compensators and auto-loading mecanisms. No thats not it either the 1400 has a crappy ROF. So why is the 1400 the second highest powergrid using turret? I know!! Its because the tempest has the second best Powergrid of all the BSs. Dang, what am I saying thats the megathron. So whats good about a tempest? The 4 missle launcher slots, but you can get that on a typhoon for cheaper and more CPU. So why didn't i get rid of this tempest already, because i have 2 months left on my platinum insurance contract. -Adapt and Overcome.
Beseb	Posted - 2004.06.21 00:34:00 - [72] Xelios, my damage averages around 300 now, which is down, but that is due to the new defenses NPC's have (that's my guess). When I shoot cans and what not, my damage is in the normal 400-500 range. The RoF on my guns is 11.42 sec with a mod of 9.88ish, which is base 38 dps, which is about right on the money for a well trained battleship high slot.
GardenerOfEden	Posted - 2004.06.21 04:52:00 - [73] Originally by: Jakal ... anyone who says the low ROF of cannons is because of recoil has never heard of muzzel breaks and recoiless cannons. WHERE ARE MY 1000mm RECOILESS CANNONS? if anything the low ROF would be to keep the barrels from over heating ... Jakal you are mixing up a number of factors here ... 1. yes you can have a projectile weapon with a rapid RoF a la machine gun / autocannon but the effectiveness of that approach depends upon hitting the target with a "wall of lead" sprayed in its direction. Similarly you can lay down "rapid" suppressing fire with an artillery piece where you actually want the shells to land in different places within the general target area. The salient point is that you are sacrificing accuracy with the rapid RoF (but not necessarily effectiveness). 2. in space combat there would be no hit-the-ground-and-do-splash-damage to soft targets - you would need to shoot a target at distance with maximum accuracy a la the scoped up + tripod stabilised sniper's rifle. In that situation you need to arrest the movement/recoil of the gun and steady it before the next shot i.e. sacrifice RoF for accuracy. 3. so we should have a slow RoF with good accuracy (without random atmospheric + gravitational trajectory factors in space the projectile should end up exactly where it was shot so the only real issue is the target having moved unpredictably between firing + impact) or a rapid rate of fire with reduced accuracy from the weapon ôbouncingö (albeit still with a good percentage of hits in order to be effective else the weapon would represent a failed design). The first point is the issue with the 1400mm versus anything; the second point is the issue with the Dual425mm versus frigates. 4. space is a very cold place - overheating shouldn't be a problem though any rapid change in temperatures would require very advanced materials be used in the construction of the weapon itself. EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology
Sister Immacolata	Posted - 2004.06.21 05:50:00 - [74] Im amazed. You want bad analogy? Reading this thread is like this hearing people complain about that the sun has set so they wasted their money on buying a pair of sunshades . Relax fellas! Everything will be fine. It is acknowledged by CCP that something went awry with the big turret's falloff/optimal range. It will get changed. . . . Awaiting more and hi-bit rate music - with bated breath ...
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.21 06:32:00 - [75] Well, last night R0NIN of RUS taught my Raven a very sharp lesson with his Tempest. I had zero cap left and was getting into armour and I'd just about gotten his shields down to 15%. Tempests are still powerhouses in the right hands. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
GardenerOfEden	Posted - 2004.06.21 09:48:00 - [76] Originally by: Sister Immacolata Relax fellas! Everything will be fine. It is acknowledged by CCP that something went awry with the big turret's falloff/optimal range. It will get changed. I'm sorry I missed an official CCP statement that the mechanics/stats are incorrect and are going to be changed , all I saw was "Turret hitting being audited" here and "We're looking exactly into [range]" here. This does not mean there are going to be any changes - for instance CCP looked at the R&D tech ii BPO lottery in light of there being multiple back-to-back winners but afaik this did not result in any changes. Can you please supply a link to the statement you are referring to. Thanks EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology
GardenerOfEden	Posted - 2004.06.21 10:12:00 - [77] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Well, last night R0NIN of RUS taught my Raven a very sharp lesson with his Tempest. I had zero cap left and was getting into armour and I'd just about gotten his shields down to 15%. Tempests are still powerhouses in the right hands. Yes there are some effective Tempest configurations for PvNPC depending upon the NPC faction (I also suspect CCP has not updated certain agent mission NPCs' signature radius resulting in them being comparatively easier atm) and PvP but I can't take anything from your post without knowing the configuration of both ships ... I can say that the Raven has yet to achieve its best on account of Raven pilots still needing to train up the new missile skills. Further, and I mean no disrespect to you in stating this but, Joshua Calvert saying that he was beaten up by a Tempest in his Raven is not the same as, say, Tank CEO saying the same thing. EVE is a massive social experiment of human interaction facilitated by computer technology
Sourus	Posted - 2004.06.21 15:43:00 - [78] One week before the patch I sold my Raven and bought a Tempest (1 mill profit :) as I wanted to do more NPC hunting, which I thought the Tempest was better suited for. I had been preparing for this change a long time, training up Minmatar BS and Large Projectiles to lvl 4 and such. I guess the joke is on me.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.06.21 15:59:00 - [79] Originally by: GardenerOfEden Originally by: Joshua Calvert Well, last night R0NIN of RUS taught my Raven a very sharp lesson with his Tempest. I had zero cap left and was getting into armour and I'd just about gotten his shields down to 15%. Tempests are still powerhouses in the right hands. Yes there are some effective Tempest configurations for PvNPC depending upon the NPC faction (I also suspect CCP has not updated certain agent mission NPCs' signature radius resulting in them being comparatively easier atm) and PvP but I can't take anything from your post without knowing the configuration of both ships ... I can say that the Raven has yet to achieve its best on account of Raven pilots still needing to train up the new missile skills. Further, and I mean no disrespect to you in stating this but, Joshua Calvert saying that he was beaten up by a Tempest in his Raven is not the same as, say, Tank CEO saying the same thing. None taken Setup was: 6 Shock Limos Siege + 2x Nosferatu 1 XL Neutron, 1 em, 1 heat, 1 kinetic tac shield, 2 cap recharger II's Power diag I's in lo Not a terrible setup but, after reflecting on the fight, I made some very noobish mistakes. I didn't orbit and mess with his tracking, I had 2 turrets equipped that were useless, and I used Wrath missiles hitting for 108 (clearly he had a kinetic tac shield eequipped) so I should have swapped to mjolnir torps and I should've stuck around a bit longer, perhaps, to get his shields down 'cause my Wrath's would've then been hitting a lot harder on his armour. I can only guess at Ronin's setup but I think it may have been: 5x 1400mm, 1 malkuth siege, 2 HML's with defenders 1 XL shield booster, 3 tac shields (same as mine I think) and a heavy cap injector lo-slots I have no idea about - whatever is needed to fit the above and some tracking stuff. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Wraithwind	Posted - 2004.06.21 17:16:00 - [80] I already closed my two account. Been playing for less then a month, loved the game then got hit with this. This is something that should never have happened. I'm not going to sit around waiting weeks. I loved this game pre-patch. All this game now is missles missles missles. I'll save my money. Had I been playing for longer I might have stuck it out (due to the time invested) but feel like they ripped the rifle out of my hands and handed me a squirt gun.
The1	Posted - 2004.06.21 18:27:00 - [81] Originally by: Jakal Edited by: Jakal on 20/06/2004 23:51:36 Well i dont mean to be insulting but, anyone still using large progectiles on a tempest is a MORON. ive switched to useing hybrids on my tempest because i can do better damage, the energy use isn't worth mentioning imo. i have a tempest, but not when the new missle skills come out, im getting in a raven. and anyone who says the low ROF of cannons is because of recoil has never heard of muzzel breaks and recoiless cannons. WHERE ARE MY 1000mm RECOILESS CANNONS? if anything the low ROF would be to keep the barrels from over heating. P.S. why do 1400s have such a bad tracking? I think its becuase the poor gunner can only turn that traverse crank so fast. But if that 3250 MWs of power isn't for the traversing motors, it must be for the high speed recoil compensators and auto-loading mecanisms. No thats not it either the 1400 has a crappy ROF. So why is the 1400 the second highest powergrid using turret? I know!! Its because the tempest has the second best Powergrid of all the BSs. Dang, what am I saying thats the megathron. So whats good about a tempest? The 4 missle launcher slots, but you can get that on a typhoon for cheaper and more CPU. So why didn't i get rid of this tempest already, because i have 2 months left on my platinum insurance contract. Well, I guess I must be a Moron. My 1400's, however, still hit regularly for 400-700hp. I have had my two biggest wrecking shots ever AFTER the patch, both over 1500hp. You people that sit here and whine must A) not have the skills trained up properly to use your 1400's effectivly, or B) have no understanding of what mods to fix, or C) have no idea of optimal range (and how to keep yourself in it). I LOVE my Tempest. Did I like it better before when I could tear through any frig with one shot...sure. However, there are answers for that too. Use your brain people! I would much rather have a game where you have to think a little. Tends to seperate the contenders from the pretenders I still tear through everything (including frigs and interceptors) in optimal range. You can too if you know what the hell you are doing.
Jakal	Posted - 2004.06.21 19:35:00 - [82] ok last night i made a post while i was rather upset, and i just whined and ranted. sure the 1400s can still hit i never said the couldn't. but how often do you hit, no one who has been saying the 1400s are still good has said what thier new hit ratios are. but i could be wrong. maybe i dont have enough skill in gunnery but one would figure 3.5 mil would be enough. -Adapt and Overcome.
Mikelangelo	Posted - 2004.06.22 02:13:00 - [83] Originally by: The1 Originally by: Jakal Edited by: Jakal on 20/06/2004 23:51:36 Well i dont mean to be insulting but, anyone still using large progectiles on a tempest is a MORON. ive switched to useing hybrids on my tempest because i can do better damage, the energy use isn't worth mentioning imo. i have a tempest, but not when the new missle skills come out, im getting in a raven. and anyone who says the low ROF of cannons is because of recoil has never heard of muzzel breaks and recoiless cannons. WHERE ARE MY 1000mm RECOILESS CANNONS? if anything the low ROF would be to keep the barrels from over heating. P.S. why do 1400s have such a bad tracking? I think its becuase the poor gunner can only turn that traverse crank so fast. But if that 3250 MWs of power isn't for the traversing motors, it must be for the high speed recoil compensators and auto-loading mecanisms. No thats not it either the 1400 has a crappy ROF. So why is the 1400 the second highest powergrid using turret? I know!! Its because the tempest has the second best Powergrid of all the BSs. Dang, what am I saying thats the megathron. So whats good about a tempest? The 4 missle launcher slots, but you can get that on a typhoon for cheaper and more CPU. So why didn't i get rid of this tempest already, because i have 2 months left on my platinum insurance contract. Well, I guess I must be a Moron. My 1400's, however, still hit regularly for 400-700hp. I have had my two biggest wrecking shots ever AFTER the patch, both over 1500hp. You people that sit here and whine must A) not have the skills trained up properly to use your 1400's effectivly, or B) have no understanding of what mods to fix, or C) have no idea of optimal range (and how to keep yourself in it). I LOVE my Tempest. Did I like it better before when I could tear through any frig with one shot...sure. However, there are answers for that too. Use your brain people! I would much rather have a game where you have to think a little. Tends to seperate the contenders from the pretenders I still tear through everything (including frigs and interceptors) in optimal range. You can too if you know what the hell you are doing. Very good point The1. Use the advantages of your ship. Tempest still rocks, and I think it is EVEN more fun now than before. Experiment. Again, the NEW optimal range is NOT what the stupid "show info" box says on the weapon. Don't rely on it. You'll get great damage and hit frequency outside the listed "optimal", into what the falloff range should be.
Iluyen	Posted - 2004.06.22 04:49:00 - [84] Ok I was gonna let this slip but after the very good point I'll confirm that you are a moron. Knowing what mods you need to fix it isn't worth xxxx. It may be ok for nubs that only npc but in pvp these slots are much needed for other things then tracking gear. Fitting these mods is just nerfing your ship in other ways.
Traveler	Posted - 2004.06.22 05:25:00 - [85] Ok, i think we have seen enough of "discussion" here. Thread closed! Traveler Polaris Bug Hunter Lead

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