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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 70 post(s) |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
124
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Posted - 2012.03.27 15:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
So the titan nerf is posted. Dozens of posts are made explaining how the nerf is bad because it can so easily be bypassed. And the solution is to soften the nerf?
I don't get it. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
125
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Citadel cruise has a velocity of ~4k/s, so at say 50km you've got 12.5 seconds between "hey that titan has a blinky red box around it I wonder what's up with that" and "oh god I got hit by a missile I totally did not see that coming".
Yep, you have plenty of time to warp out. No reason to bother though because they don't hurt. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
125
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Posted - 2012.03.27 16:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Also, can you guys please stop +1ing - if you're under the impression that we're doing balance work based on how many posts there are in a thread you're barking up the wrong forest never mind the wrong tree. I'd hate to have to get someone to come in and clean the thread.
We're trying to flag the posts that you need to actually pay attention to. i.e. The ones which are based on how the game mechanics work, not how you assume they work. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
126
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Shadoo wrote: In the meanwhile absent a proper re-evaluation of the Titan combat role and refocus to something cool & unique -- if you really wanted a purish anti-capital role for the titan without the slightest chance of being in any sort of anti-support role -- have you considered removing the ability to fit turrets/launchers altogether and instead buffing the Doomsday Device cycle/dmg to match the overall DPS vs. capitals while making the DD module able to activate in low-sec (since really -- why would it today still be limited to null sec?)
Right here. A titan fix that works using existing mechanics and completely avoids the more difficult problems.
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
126
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
pmchem wrote: The only immediate problem with Shadoo's proposal is that Titans would lose the ability to shoot structures. Their DPS on POS shots would be missed. However, Titan pilots may often be just fine with not being able to shoot POS...
I fail to see how requiring alliances to field dreads instead of just titans is a bad thing.
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
127
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Posted - 2012.03.27 17:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:My counterpoint was that missile flight time makes blapleviathans a non-starter in many (but not all, point taken about the confusion of fleet fights) situations before you even start to think about signature radius. Then we had this whole derail into "OMG Y U NO UNDERSTAND EXPLOSION VELOCITY" which was kinda pointless.
We understood your point. It's still wrong.
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
137
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Posted - 2012.03.28 18:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Harotak wrote:I personally like the idea of completely removing supercap ewar immunity. This is actually something we're evaluating at the moment, alongside a large built-in WCS bonus. The big issue is that it also makes it possible to use assistance modules on them (tracking links etc) which potentially undoes all the benefits.
How big of a WCS bonus? The whole reason that the ewar immunity removal can work is that it would force supercaps to control the field in order to leave, rather than being able to simply clear a few dictors and bail. +2 to stop one random rifter from catching a titan is one thing, while +10 would effectively be a supercap boost as the size of existing titan blobs makes jamming all of them impractical. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
162
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Posted - 2012.03.29 11:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Not a a bonus to WCS, but rather a built-in thing like Blockade Runners have, so they're more vulnerable to tackling but can't be tackled by a single rifter, because that would be too big a balance swing for us to be comfortable with right now, particularly on top of the mooted already-huge EW-immunity removal. The reason we're considering immunity-removal is that it allows you to tracking-disrupt or sensor-damp titans, rather than to make them hugely vulnerable to warp disruption. Even if we gave them a built-in strength of 50, it's still a pretty sizable numeric nerf as we go from needing infinity MWDing rifters to ~13 to tackle a titan, and the infinite-strength point from bubbles, dictors and hictor points still work as currently.
Also, most ships are special in some regard, and titans more than most. That's why ship selection is interesting.
That is exactly what a bonus to wcs is. Just like what the deep space transports have(not blockade runners).
The ewar immunity removal is ONLY a big deal because of the vulnerability to targeted warp disruption. With your +50 wcs, the ewar immunity removal amounts to a MASSIVE boost to titan blobs. Sure a couple can be tracking disrupted, maybe jammed, but it leaves the vast majority able to blap away while receiving remote sensor boosters and tracking links. Making titans vulnerable to warp disruption is what matters, it means that using titans requires control of the field. With ewar vulnerable titans, you can't just clear dictors and warp out as your leisure.
I'm a bit confused how you get 13 rifters to warp disrupt for 51 points. Are you assuming rifters with 2x warp scramblers? Which would all be dead in a few seconds because of the smartbombs? Back in reality, a +50 point titan takes 26 ships to tackle assuming specialized fits, and 51 assuming realistic fits. In realistic fleets this number of points is difficult to have in a 250 man fleet, let alone get on one target with 30 more blapping away.
If a reasonable(max of 5ish) built in warp strength is untenable, so is removing the ewar immunity.
Please stop thinking of this in terms of one titan vs a small gang of subcaps, and start thinking of this in terms of what happens when you have 30 titans with supercarrier support. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
162
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Posted - 2012.03.29 12:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: The specific benefits I'm hoping it might yield at this time aren't really to do with warp scrambling, they're to do specifically with tracking disruption. You can get four -62% TDs on an Arbitrator, each of which cancels out four Shadow Serpentis tracking computers. Even if you assign 2x TDs to each titan, this ought to let you significantly mitigate a 30-titan blapfleet with 15 T1 cruiser hulls, which is pretty decent scaling IMO.
This is what people mean when they talk about EFT warriors. Yes the math works, but it's completely detached from the way the game works.
While ewar can be downright overpowered in fights involving single digit players, when you scale into the hundreds of players it becomes much less effective. Ewar in large scale battles is almost hilariously ineffective fleet vs fleet. It's simply impossible to coordinate 50 ewar ships against 50 targets on the nearly one to one mappping that would be needed for this to be meaningful.
In modern large scale fights, ECM is used against logistics, to reduce(but never eliminate) the amount of remote reps being received by your targets, as well as against other targets such as hostile webbing recons and FCs. Those groups all have something in common, they don't need to be permanently jammed to dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the rest of the fleet. Trying to use ewar ships to supress incoming damage slows it down a little but, but ends up being a net loss because the ewar dies faster than the ships they are trying to jam.
If you're looking at it from the perspective of using TDs to supress titans, you've hit a complete nonstarter. Ewar is just not that good in large scale fights. |
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
162
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Posted - 2012.03.29 13:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Fair enough. Is the ineffectiveness of EW in these situations something that there's a potential easy fix for? It's a decent on-paper solution to the problem, and it'd be nice if we could make it scale properly. If not, oh well, we look at something else.
In subcapital fights, the fact that ewar doesn't scale well in large fights is a GOOD thing. If it did, ewar would be ridiculous and nobody would fly anything else. Think of "solo" pvp with a falcon buddy, except scaled up to 250 man fleets.
Ignoring that though, the problem is one of coordination. How do you get 50 guys in ewar ships to, in just a few seconds, get onto 50 different targets? More importantly, how do you get 75 ewar ships to pick 50 targets, and for the 25 left to be able to determine which targets need to be picked up as the first 50 start dying. See Cynonet Two's post at the top of this page.
I'd imagine the UI changes needed to make this work would be far more difficult than a titan overhaul, plus getting more into letting an FC play the game for you, and this is all academic anyways because of what it would do to subcaps.
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
162
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Posted - 2012.03.29 13:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Changing subject and following up an earlier discussion, we were knocking around the possibility of damage-scaling based on unmodified sig radius, so you couldn't affect it with TPs etc.
This leaves open some questions of the details but seems a reasonable solution. |
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