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Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.16 09:05:00 - [121] Originally by: Imiarr Timshae Honestly, the "Get a job" crap is really not a good idea for all of us. I'm a university student who will soon be living on ú0.50 or $0.25 a day. Thats including the work I will be getting. (Going to lose a LOT of weight ) If you're living on ú182.50 a year, I suggest getting a slightly better job.
Tasuk	Posted - 2008.09.16 09:28:00 - [122] Edited by: Tasuk on 16/09/2008 09:30:59 Originally by: Imiarr Timshae Honestly, the "Get a job" crap is really not a good idea for all of us. I'm a university student who will soon be living on ú0.50 or $0.25 a day. Thats including the work I will be getting. (Going to lose a LOT of weight ) Same situation here. I signed a lot of paperwork with my graduate school, one piece specifically stating that under the terms that I entered, it is against the school rules for me to have another job outside my work/studies within the program. My income will be fixed for the next 4 years and it is right on the border of making ends meet, such that even $15 makes a difference as, for example, each month it can buy you a few extra meals. Typical response to that is "well then you shouldn't be playing games then eh?" but nevertheless students are still human beings and need some form of occasional entertainment too. Originally by: Malcanis If you're living on ú182.50 a year, I suggest getting a slightly better job. It can be an issue of opportunity - some places just don't have any better jobs.
Imiarr Timshae Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats	Posted - 2008.09.16 09:36:00 - [123] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Imiarr Timshae Honestly, the "Get a job" crap is really not a good idea for all of us. I'm a university student who will soon be living on ú0.50 or $0.25 a day. Thats including the work I will be getting. (Going to lose a LOT of weight ) If you're living on ú182.50 a year, I suggest getting a slightly better job. Wow, I had not thought of getting a better job. What a unique and deeply helpful suggestion. Strangely, there is a very limited amount of work that an unqualified, disabled university student can do.
Evanade Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.16 10:00:00 - [124] Remove insurance, change basic payout to 25% of base value, nerf highsec missions to net alot less ISK and change it so that NPC's drop only named items and no plain t1, and alot less named at that. Balance NPC ISK reward just like missions LP rewards, the more that get killed the lower their value becomes. That should get the eve economy going in the right direction.. --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2008.09.16 10:21:00 - [125] Originally by: Banana Torres Originally by: Borg 6517 600mil now this is insane in next 2 months there will only bots and farmers playing this game And me. ...and me, and my partner, and most of my friends who don't use GTC's Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator
Doddy Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.09.16 10:32:00 - [126] Originally by: Tasuk Edited by: Tasuk on 14/09/2008 11:53:33 Originally by: Furb Killer Can someone explain this to me because i dont really get it: GTC becomes more expensive to buy with isk -> People who buy gtc and sell them for isk get more isk in return -> Those who want to buy isk with real money got less reason to use illegal ways to buyt it from farmers -> Farmers make less profit, or got to lower their prices to keep demand up and still make less profit -> Farmers go to farm in another game since it isnt profitable anymore in eve Which part am i missing? It works the other way: farmers prices drop people buy less and less GTCs and more farmed ISKs gtc prices rise due to lack of supply people close down their additional accounts being unable to afford them farmers sell moar isk, ccp sells less game time game suffers (not dies, just suffers) I watch farmer ISK prices because they are typically one of the indicators where the GTC prices will go, up or down Not because i buy ISK. Highly unlikely tbh. I would think the RMT prices are dropping because less people are buying isk for fear of getting their capitals repossessed thanks to all the forum threads of "ccp stole my titan" etc. GTC prices are going up simply because people have more isk to spend. The % of people who were buying GTCs but would switch to RMT at the drop of the hat is probably very small, you are either willing to break the EULA or not, a few $ other way isn't going to make much diff.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.16 11:18:00 - [127] Originally by: Doddy I would think the RMT prices are dropping because less people are buying isk for fear of getting their capitals repossessed thanks to all the forum threads of "ccp stole my titan" etc. Thanks for reminding about that one. Most epic butt-hurt isk-buyer yet
Reiisha Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence	Posted - 2008.09.16 11:29:00 - [128] Originally by: Borg 6517 600mil now this is insane in next 2 months there will only bots and farmers playing this game Eh, not everyone pays for their accounts with ISK? In fact, the minority does.... Most people pay with a creditcard or similar. EVE History Wiki
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2008.09.16 11:40:00 - [129] Edited by: Steve Hawkings on 16/09/2008 11:40:27 Originally by: Imiarr Timshae Honestly, the "Get a job" crap is really not a good idea for all of us. I'm a university student who will soon be living on ú0.50 or $0.25 a day. Thats including the work I will be getting. (Going to lose a LOT of weight ) poppy***, Either you know nothing about the benefits we throw at disabled people or you are delibratly turning them down. Time is not Money and minerals i mine are free!!*
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.09.16 11:58:00 - [130] Eve isn't casual and carefree enough to be thought of as much else but a 2nd job anyway. Both Eve and Reality counts as your time invested, which is the only real currency you have. So does it matter that much if it's your real life money from your real life job or your space pixel money from your space pixel job? I still don't see where the sympathy needed is needed in this thread. People are saying their isn't enough ISK sinks and such to help the GTC market, yet the GTC market is an ISK sink. Just because the economy is inflating and people are getting priced out. Why is it so different from moaning that you want a 100 mill battleship but you only feel like paying 50 million cause you remember they were 50 mill this one time. I don't think farmers are your problem. I simply don't think there's even enough of them to effect the GTC market that drasticly. They only make up about 5% tops of the playerbase from what I've seen. I'd say it's more given a choice EVERYONE who can afford it will rather pay with made up space money then real life $ for their subscription, and a lot of people would appear to have alts to double or triple or quadruple the estimated grind for gtc's. Making it pretty feasable to subsidise at least 1 or 2 accounts with GTC's.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:01:00 - [131] Originally by: 5pinDizzy EPeople are saying their isn't enough ISK sinks and such to help the GTC market, yet the GTC market is an ISK sink. How so? It just moves the ISK around between people — none is destroyed in the process, afaik. Redistribution ≠ sink.
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:09:00 - [132] I have bought GTC's in the past when I didn't have access to credit card facilities - i.e, I don't have one. I've also not played any other online game, so imagine my surprise when I discovered that I could still play EvE and [using their ingame resources], be able to pay for my game? Awesome! CCP must be losing money on this, no? I mean, no financial transaction takes place, yet I can still play by either running missions or mining, and using the ISK generated to buy a code that allows me to play for another month or so, right? I just don't geddit - but I'm not complaining!
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:10:00 - [133] Originally by: Ceremony Garp I have bought GTC's in the past when I didn't have access to credit card facilities - i.e, I don't have one. I've also not played any other online game, so imagine my surprise when I discovered that I could still play EvE and [using their ingame resources], be able to pay for my game? Awesome! CCP must be losing money on this, no? I mean, no financial transaction takes place, yet I can still play by either running missions or mining, and using the ISK generated to buy a code that allows me to play for another month or so, right? I just don't geddit - but I'm not complaining! What? Why would CCP be losing money? Player A buys a GTC from CCP for dollars and sells it to player B for ISK.
Bish Ounen Gallente Omni-Core Freedom Fighters Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:10:00 - [134] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Eve isn't casual and carefree enough to be thought of as much else but a 2nd job anyway.... Um, not to flame you or anything, but if you find EVE to be more like work than fun, then may I humbly suggest playing something else for awhile? If you are in corp leadership, hand the reigns to someone else for a bit and go outside. NO game should EVER feel like work. The moment it does is the moment to walk away. As far as the rest of your post I absolutely agree. I think the OP is just being overly dramatic. Tactical Logistics using the last T1 Frigate hull!
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:16:00 - [135] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ceremony Garp I have bought GTC's in the past when I didn't have access to credit card facilities - i.e, I don't have one. I've also not played any other online game, so imagine my surprise when I discovered that I could still play EvE and [using their ingame resources], be able to pay for my game? Awesome! CCP must be losing money on this, no? I mean, no financial transaction takes place, yet I can still play by either running missions or mining, and using the ISK generated to buy a code that allows me to play for another month or so, right? I just don't geddit - but I'm not complaining! What? Why would CCP be losing money? Player A buys a GTC from CCP for dollars and sells it to player B for ISK. Aye, but I haven't laid out a single penny/cent/franc/etc, etc personally. That's what I meant.
Ceremony Garp	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:17:00 - [136] Edited by: Ceremony Garp on 16/09/2008 12:18:46 Quote: Um, not to flame you or anything, but if you find EVE to be more like work than fun, then may I humbly suggest playing something else for awhile? If you are in corp leadership, hand the reigns to someone else for a bit and go outside. NO game should EVER feel like work. The moment it does is the moment to walk away... Lol, agreed. ALthough I will say that I run missions [seems like work, lol] to generate isk to buy ships n' stuff to pvp in [recreation].
Cautet Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:18:00 - [137] Originally by: Tasuk Edited by: Tasuk on 14/09/2008 11:53:33 Originally by: Furb Killer Can someone explain this to me because i dont really get it: GTC becomes more expensive to buy with isk -> People who buy gtc and sell them for isk get more isk in return -> Those who want to buy isk with real money got less reason to use illegal ways to buyt it from farmers -> Farmers make less profit, or got to lower their prices to keep demand up and still make less profit -> Farmers go to farm in another game since it isnt profitable anymore in eve Which part am i missing? It works the other way: farmers prices drop people buy less and less GTCs and more farmed ISKs gtc prices rise due to lack of supply people close down their additional accounts being unable to afford them farmers sell moar isk, ccp sells less game time game suffers (not dies, just suffers) I watch farmer ISK prices because they are typically one of the indicators where the GTC prices will go, up or down Not because i buy ISK. Ok, you are both slightly wrong and slightly right. The underlying fact you have both missed is that GTC's are more expensive in real money now for EU and GBP. Equiv of ú20 for 60 days gtc VS ú7.50 for 30 days. If you calculate that with average prices that a 30 day GTC used to go for - say 180 mil, then convert that to ú per isk = ú1 used to buy you 24,000,000 isk. Now, to get the same isk for your ú1 you have to sell a 60 day GTC at 480,000,000 isk. On top of that people who paid money for GTC to run the game, not to sell, have seen a huge price increase. And they have to lay out more money at a time to buy GTC for use and/or for selling. It is only natural that numbers of people selling GTC's would fall slightly, and this in turn both creates higher prices and also more price instability (fewer sellers, less of a perfect market, price fluctuates more). As to the price isk sellers sell at it could have gone down due to more sellers, or due to less sellers. Or due to something else. I would suspect that there was an initial rise in demand for isk due to illegal methods, casuing a supply side increase (more isk sellers), causing too much isk being sold. But it could equally be drop in price due to fear from players of losing their accounts and not using those systems. Or less players buying isk for ú illegally and using that isk to buy GTCs ingame.
Tasuk	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:22:00 - [138] Originally by: 5pinDizzy People are saying their isn't enough ISK sinks and such to help the GTC market, yet the GTC market is an ISK sink. Just because the economy is inflating and people are getting priced out. Why is it so different from moaning that you want a 100 mill battleship but you only feel like paying 50 million cause you remember they were 50 mill this one time. Simply consider that there needs to be a balance. CCP cannot let ISK cost too cheaply. The cheaper the ISK gets, the more people will start buying it both via game time codes and farmer websites. And do you really want to play a game where all territorial wars are being fought with credit cards and bank accounts? Where endgame is extremely easy to achieve that players would quit the game much faster? Where most farmed ISK buyers would get away with it because CCP would simply not have enough manpower to track them all? Quite obviously you cannot just let ISK become extremely cheap then shrug your shoulders and say "oh well, that's how the market dictated it to be". And of course neither can you make GTC ISK become too expensive because then more people would buy farmed ISKs. Originally by: 5pinDizzy I don't think farmers are your problem. I simply don't think there's even enough of them to effect the GTC market that drasticly. They only make up about 5% tops of the playerbase from what I've seen. What I say comes from my observations of the GTC prices and prices on farmed ISK both of which I have been following for over a year. I say there is a noticeable effect when farmed ISK gets cheaper the game time code prices rise. Whether you believe my observations or not that is up to you. One point remains still - farmers have dropped prices on ISK to an all time low, as there is clearly an oversupply meaning they have found safer more profitable ways to harvesting it form the game and CCP hasn't caught up with them yet. For why they might be interested in catching up, see the paragraph above.
Dipluz Caldari FroZen SoulS Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:27:00 - [139] To this failthread from poor people I say get a job, get some balls, and pay to play. that was the eve I started playing in the first place was, and now theres WAY to many kids, so the more expensive GTC are the more happy I am.
Tasuk	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:37:00 - [140] Originally by: Cautet Ok, you are both slightly wrong and slightly right. The underlying fact you have both missed is that GTC's are more expensive in real money now for EU and GBP. Equiv of ú20 for 60 days gtc VS ú7.50 for 30 days. If you calculate that with average prices that a 30 day GTC used to go for - say 180 mil, then convert that to ú per isk = ú1 used to buy you 24,000,000 isk. Now, to get the same isk for your ú1 you have to sell a 60 day GTC at 480,000,000 isk. On top of that people who paid money for GTC to run the game, not to sell, have seen a huge price increase. And they have to lay out more money at a time to buy GTC for use and/or for selling. It is only natural that numbers of people selling GTC's would fall slightly, and this in turn both creates higher prices and also more price instability (fewer sellers, less of a perfect market, price fluctuates more). The conversion ratio of real money into ISK has fallen drastically irregardless of whether you are buying codes from North American or Europe. Old conversion of $15 game time code sold for 180 mil ISK: $83/billion ISK New conversion of $34 game time code sold for 500 mil ISK: $68/billion ISK To get the same conversion ratio with the new 60d code you would have to sell them for about 400 million ISK which is what the price has been entire summer, until the recent hike up to 500 mil. It doesn't matter if this is euros or dollars because europeans can right now buy them for $34, which is an increase of about $2.50 per month. So yes, GTCs are slightly more expensive, but does this really warrant such a huge drop in conversion ratio?
Tasuk	Posted - 2008.09.16 12:38:00 - [141] Originally by: Dipluz To this failthread from poor people I say get a job, get some balls, and pay to play. that was the eve I started playing in the first place was, and now theres WAY to many kids, so the more expensive GTC are the more happy I am. and i say learn2read and learn2discuss intelligently before hitting the reply button to flame (oh and while you are at it, learn2spell too)
Cautet Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.09.16 13:12:00 - [142] Edited by: Cautet on 16/09/2008 13:13:32 Originally by: Tasuk Originally by: Cautet Ok, you are both slightly wrong and slightly right. The underlying fact you have both missed is that GTC's are more expensive in real money now for EU and GBP. Equiv of ú20 for 60 days gtc VS ú7.50 for 30 days. If you calculate that with average prices that a 30 day GTC used to go for - say 180 mil, then convert that to ú per isk = ú1 used to buy you 24,000,000 isk. Now, to get the same isk for your ú1 you have to sell a 60 day GTC at 480,000,000 isk. On top of that people who paid money for GTC to run the game, not to sell, have seen a huge price increase. And they have to lay out more money at a time to buy GTC for use and/or for selling. It is only natural that numbers of people selling GTC's would fall slightly, and this in turn both creates higher prices and also more price instability (fewer sellers, less of a perfect market, price fluctuates more). The conversion ratio of real money into ISK has fallen drastically irregardless of whether you are buying codes from North American or Europe. Old conversion of $15 game time code sold for 180 mil ISK: $83/billion ISK New conversion of $34 game time code sold for 500 mil ISK: $68/billion ISK To get the same conversion ratio with the new 60d code you would have to sell them for about 400 million ISK which is what the price has been entire summer, until the recent hike up to 500 mil. It doesn't matter if this is euros or dollars because europeans can right now buy them for $34, which is an increase of about $2.50 per month. So yes, GTCs are slightly more expensive, but does this really warrant such a huge drop in conversion ratio? It's the conversation from US to Euro and ú that made the old GTC very cheap to buy for a period for EU and UK residents. CCP changed the prices of GTC's because of this exchange rate disparity to put it back in line with all non US currencies. If you look at things in dollar's it doesn't make sense, but if you look at the very low cost of dollar to UK and EU for past couple of years in does make sense. And there are enough non US residents playing the game for this to have had a huge effect on price of isk to buy GTC's. In fact CCP would probably not have changed it unless there were a huge number of people from outside the US buying GTC's for american currency and dropping their home currency purchases. In fact, it can't be a coincidence that the price seems to have settled around the same ú per 1mil isk unit value as before the price increase. Also, you have to factor in the time lag. This is how it works - people knew the GTC's were going to go up in price so they bought more. This excess supply of GTC's prevented the full impact of the higher prices effecting the GTC price in isk. That supply I would assume has now largely been exhausted.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.09.16 13:52:00 - [143] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: 5pinDizzy EPeople are saying their isn't enough ISK sinks and such to help the GTC market, yet the GTC market is an ISK sink. How so? It just moves the ISK around between people ù none is destroyed in the process, afaik. Redistribution ≠ sink. Mhm mhm, you're right of course, was thinking too 1 dimensional there. I'd just like to point out anyone who really wants more actual isk sinks in the game I think should start by looking at insurance tweaking. As for the GTC balance. Well I always thought it was a cop out anyway, it only ever leads to the cheapening of ingame money and situations like we're in now. Even if it is delightful for people who can play for free. But as someone said before CCP adopted the "if you can't beat them, join them" tactic to a lot of their game altering. You aren't going to beat real money traders ever I think unless you make them accessible to danger and competition or limited resources. Which like every other MMO, Eve provides infinite resources and safety in at least certain areas of the game. Shame seeing as the original idea of how Eve should have been would have been a very workable anti farmer solution in the always looking pew pew playerbase.
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.09.16 13:55:00 - [144] Originally by: MotherMoon the fact that the isk is cheap means they are getting cuaght, the less demand the lower the prices go. someone never quite got the economic principle of "surplus"? This has nothing to do with people getting caught, but rather the fact that there are SO MANY macroe'rs bringing in ISK, that they can afford to sell it cheap. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Tasuk	Posted - 2008.09.16 14:16:00 - [145] Edited by: Tasuk on 16/09/2008 14:16:29 Originally by: Cautet It's the conversation from US to Euro and ú that made the old GTC very cheap to buy for a period for EU and UK residents. CCP changed the prices of GTC's because of this exchange rate disparity to put it back in line with all non US currencies. If you look at things in dollar's it doesn't make sense, but if you look at the very low cost of dollar to UK and EU for past couple of years in does make sense. And there are enough non US residents playing the game for this to have had a huge effect on price of isk to buy GTC's. The slight increase in the price of the game time codes in both euro and dollar does not explain the way the conversion ratio of money->ISK has fallen. This conversion ratio does not depend on currency. The prices on codes should have obviously gone up, but the conversion ratio should have stayed same as it has been holding since last summer. Here is what it looks like in euros. 30 day game time codes could be about for about 9eu (15 in dollars). The new 60 day game time code costs 22.30 eu. 9 eu for 180 mil = 50 eu/bil 22.30 for 500 mil = 44.6 eu/bil Once again, even in euros the ISK has become cheaper to buy.
Cautet Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.09.16 15:54:00 - [146] Originally by: Tasuk Edited by: Tasuk on 16/09/2008 14:16:29 Originally by: Cautet It's the conversation from US to Euro and ú that made the old GTC very cheap to buy for a period for EU and UK residents. CCP changed the prices of GTC's because of this exchange rate disparity to put it back in line with all non US currencies. If you look at things in dollar's it doesn't make sense, but if you look at the very low cost of dollar to UK and EU for past couple of years in does make sense. And there are enough non US residents playing the game for this to have had a huge effect on price of isk to buy GTC's. The slight increase in the price of the game time codes in both euro and dollar does not explain the way the conversion ratio of money->ISK has fallen. This conversion ratio does not depend on currency. The prices on codes should have obviously gone up, but the conversion ratio should have stayed same as it has been holding since last summer. Here is what it looks like in euros. 30 day game time codes could be about for about 9eu (15 in dollars). The new 60 day game time code costs 22.30 eu. 9 eu for 180 mil = 50 eu/bil 22.30 for 500 mil = 44.6 eu/bil Once again, even in euros the ISK has become cheaper to buy. 60day GTC = US 35 = around EURO 25 - that's my calculation anyhow. I'm prepared to accept the 9 euro for 30 days. Average prices at the moment are between 460 and 480 million isk for GTC 60 rather than 500 mil. 1 euro = around 19.2 mil isk. 1 bil isk costs around 52 euro/bil (on 480 eu/bil)
Somealt Ofmine	Posted - 2008.09.16 16:29:00 - [147] Edited by: Somealt Ofmine on 16/09/2008 16:30:05 Originally by: Evanade Remove insurance, change basic payout to 25% of base value, nerf highsec missions to net alot less ISK and change it so that NPC's drop only named items and no plain t1, and alot less named at that. Balance NPC ISK reward just like missions LP rewards, the more that get killed the lower their value becomes. That should get the eve economy going in the right direction.. Yeah, nerfing both materials and isk supply will tend to make the real currency value of isk rise while holding in-game prices fairly steady, however, if you nerf insurance payouts you're likely to make players who are already too averse to risk get even more so. You'll end up further suppressing demand. You may also make the game less attractive to a much larger percentage of the player base (high-sec PvE players) than the percentage of players who would be helped (isk-rich power gamers who want to pay for the game with isk and professional isk farmers). Business wise, probably not a good move for CCP overall.
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2008.09.16 16:54:00 - [148] If you really want to nerf the Isk influx then you have to nerf mission rewards + bounty payouts + loot OVERALL, not just in highsec. And don't get started on risk versus reward, that horse stinks pretty bad already. There's plenty of low/nullsec RMT farmers around with alliances who rent out space to them knowing very well that they get paid with dirty money. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
Mahke Comply Or Die G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.09.16 18:23:00 - [149] "My conclusion is that a very significant event happened recently to GTC's, which was a price increase in dollars. Surely you would agree that this is the significant driving factor, even if you do not agree with my figures. otherwise the isk prices of GTC's would have stayed the same for GTC's or risen independantly of any changes to the GTC cos in dollarst." You don't get it. Assuming price is completely dependent on seller-end demand for isk (which should overvalue GTCs!), the price per day of game time should have gone up while the isk/dollar ratio remains the same. So higher prices, but same ratio. That the ratio changed means greater and other forces are at work. And the people talking about dollars vs. Euro's/pounds don't know what they are talking about -- the dollar as been recovering recently, not weakening further.
5pinDizzy Amarr Umpteenth Podding	Posted - 2008.09.16 19:10:00 - [150] When CCP finally get off their butts and integrate mining into their deadspace authoring system like they've talked about for years, that's the one only thing I can see coming that stands a chance of really hurting the macroers income. But then that'll just mean more will pile over to missions, and mineral prices might go up and it actually becomes as lucrative as mission running for once.

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