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deadEd
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:54:00 -
[31]
Edited by: deadEd on 16/09/2008 17:57:53
 Originally by: Kahega Amielden
It has nothing to do with Random Guy X running missions in Empire and everything to do with 0.0/lowsec players shielding their ISK making and logistics with NPC corps.
That's all fine and good, but this idea doesn't even begin to fix that (and never will). All this does is punish anyone who doesn't want to join a player corp for whatever the reason.
Originally by: Mr Merenque
@deaded
what has my proposal to do with the way i play this game? I have no benefit of this.
AGAIN, while recruiting players refused cause they pay no taxes in NPC corp!!!!!!
AGAIN, this is about fairness and balancing, not nerfing, not newb bashing, not forcing players to play the game like i do.
If people don't join your corp simply because of tax, then ask yourself two things:
1. Does your corp suck?
2. Do you really want someone that obsessed with their own wallet?
It's not fairness and balancing at all. Corps charge tax to pay for whatever corp functions and benefits they may have. NPC corps don't offer anything but protection (which they do at the price of never really being able to do much of anything outside of highsec).
It's clear where the support of this idea comes from - it stems from the issue of lowsec being completely worthless and pirates having fewer and fewer targets because of it. THAT's a big problem, and it's what needs to be solved. Players in NPC corps have next to nothing to do with it.
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Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:56:00 -
[32]
The issue is they don't like people camping out in high sec.... they think it removes the fun from lowsec and 0.0 space.
Fewer targets to gank....fewer prey.... smaller profits.
And to some degree I have to concur... but only on one little point.
Causes an endless cycle of said actions to take place in High Sec space....which means traffic..lag...and greifing.
There is no easy solution to this conundrum.
I personally don't see a problem with Players of NPC corps playing a small tax for benefits.
but to what end will it achieve anything?
Nothing really... ISK is easy to come by.
This also segways into the mindset of "lets torture the noobs and force them to come out and play"
Sorry for the derailment in light of that.
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Caliphear
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Posted - 2008.09.16 20:58:00 -
[33]
I do fully support this idea. There is no reason why players in NPC corp shouldn't pay taxes
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shuckstar
Hauling hogs
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Posted - 2008.09.17 02:57:00 -
[34]
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.17 04:54:00 -
[35]
I dont think there is anything wrong to give an incentive to join a player corp as an individual player. Keep in mind, a new player isnt going to care about being able to anchor POS's, or research using POS's, or conquer space. However a corp can help a new player along much better than the help channel ever will. In addition it facilitates friendships that gives an incentive for someone to stay. I would say that people who play with a group of other people are far more likely to stay with the game over the long term than someone who just plays solo.
So I want CCP to adopt policies to make joining player corps attractive. A tax is one way to do that. This tax shouldn't ever be prohibitive but it should even the field from the players standpoint between player run corps and NPC corps. Keep in mind that bounties that are too low are not taxed. That is, any ship a newbie will be able to kill solo in his first week will likely have 0% tax anyway due to that minimum rule.
Increased players in corps, will likely mean more corps. This means it is much less likely for an individual corp to be wardec'd. I also think the wardec system needs to be modified but that is another issue.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.09.17 06:18:00 -
[36]
I don't see how this benefits anything.
Will this encourage people away from NPC corps? Probably but only into 1 man corps to avoid tax, they'll still be in high sec doing missions. Frankly the entire idea is simply trying to force people to play the "right" way. Since "right" is purely objective I have to say two thumbs down on this. People that want to be carebears should be carebears. If I want to hide behind concord until you turn your back then shank you, well that's life. :)
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.17 06:51:00 -
[37]
I like the idea, although I would drop a 20-25% NPC corp tax. I'd give new players a 90day exemption on the tax. FW corps have 0% tax.
This would give a nice incentive for people to join player corps, most corps have 10-15% tax rate and they give their members services/benefits.
People are right this may not do anything, but that is the point. People always say that the stick is bad and people need encouragement to go out and explore EVE, the encouragement is now a lower tax rate in a player corp. NPC corps kicking out players over 6 months old would be forcing people, a simple tax rate is hardly forcing anyone.
--
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Major PewPew
The Dark Horses
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Posted - 2008.09.17 19:02:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Major PewPew on 17/09/2008 19:02:19
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You know the phrase "no taxation without rapresentation"?
In this situation it will be: "no taxation without services". If a player ina NPC corp can open hangar to share with his alt/friends, plant up a POS (possibly with pay for use services for the corp members, sharing a POS service in one of the NPC corp would be wonderful), it will be ok to pay a 10% tax rate (and even get some form of war dec against against the corp or individual in it).
As long as that is not implemented, there is no corp service you should pay with your tax.
you're getting a service, its called uninterrupted pve combat...
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.09.18 05:34:00 -
[39]
Quote:
you're getting a service, its called uninterrupted pve combat...
How often does a 1 man corp get wardecced?
Unless your a very well known mission runner or your really ****ed someone off you'll still have uninterrupted PvE combat.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.09.18 06:52:00 -
[40]
I agree that some people will be forced out of NPC corps due to tax increases, but the flame wars would be insane if this went through. That, and it wouldn't affect most members (macroers don't pay taxes, nor do low-sec PvPers).
I remain in NPC corps to help new players out, and I should be penalized for that? Yes, I do run missions, only because killing bits of data relieves stress after a hard day of work.
Other penalties could easily be applied, such as skill or ship limitations, but even those would be incendiary. If it's not broken, don't fix it.
-Bunyip
"May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.18 09:02:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Major PewPew
Edited by: Major PewPew on 17/09/2008 19:02:19
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You know the phrase "no taxation without rapresentation"?
In this situation it will be: "no taxation without services". If a player ina NPC corp can open hangar to share with his alt/friends, plant up a POS (possibly with pay for use services for the corp members, sharing a POS service in one of the NPC corp would be wonderful), it will be ok to pay a 10% tax rate (and even get some form of war dec against against the corp or individual in it).
As long as that is not implemented, there is no corp service you should pay with your tax.
you're getting a service, its called uninterrupted pve combat...
Oh, really? so being in a NPC corp will protect you from ninja salvagers, loot thieves and suicide ganking?
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Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.18 16:16:00 -
[42]
If you are a high sec player there is very little reason to join a player corp currently.
Increased risk (can be wardec'd)
Decreased profit (if corp has tax)
And you still can't shoot salvagers stealin your loot.
And thanks to concord changes you are far less likely to get ganked, although being in a player corp or NPC corp has no effect on the probability of you getting suicide ganked.
NPC corps are broken is because they break the risk reward model of eve that should be followed. People making 1 man corps to get around this is fine, you can still play solo and get around the tax. But if someone thinks you are a farmer they can wardec you and go after you.
Keep in mind if you are in highsec it is extremely unlikely you will use a POS. And sure corp wallet and hangers are a handy tool, but are hardly worth the added risk for highsec play.
Essentially i think veteran players in NPC corps should have to pay more for the additional protection they recieve from wardec mechanics.
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Rabid Rich
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Posted - 2008.09.18 17:41:00 -
[43]
tax is only one weapon that NPC corps could be nerfed with. others include:
-limited flyable ships(no freighters or BS)
-Limited Market/Trade/Contractual transaction types/sizes
-Limited duration of stay(players older than X months kicked to FW)
-Agent access restricted
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.09.18 18:00:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Bagehi on 18/09/2008 18:03:38
Both from an RP and Balance view, NPC corps should be taxing people something. I saw several people ask "what are my rewards?" Really, really obvious! It is the very reason you don't want to be in a player corp:
You can't be war dec'd.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.18 21:22:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/09/2008 21:23:41
Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 18/09/2008 18:03:38
Both from an RP and Balance view, NPC corps should be taxing people something. I saw several people ask "what are my rewards?" Really, really obvious! It is the very reason you don't want to be in a player corp:
You can't be war dec'd.
You want the reason why a lot of people don't want to enter players corporations?
You and the people like you, trying to impose your view of the game to all the others people.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.18 23:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You and the people like you, trying to impose your view of the game to all the others people.
It is not imposing, numnuts. Just because you lose 10% of your profits, you omg have just HAVE to leave an NPC corp? You aren't supposed to stay in an NPC corp forever. God forbid we want peopl eto work together in an MMORPG, yeah I also hate the people who tell others to shoot people in BF2142, those jerks are just imposing their will on me.
Here is proof:
Originally by: EVE-Online Official Knowledgebase
NPC corporations are not meant for human players. The only time you are allowed or intended to be part of an NPC corporation is when you leave a player corp, in which case the NPC corporation acts as a placeholder until you find a new one. No requests for positions in NPC corporations are accepted and you should thus focus your efforts on finding a player corporation instead.
--
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.19 06:15:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 19/09/2008 06:16:41
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Venkul Mul
You and the people like you, trying to impose your view of the game to all the others people.
It is not imposing, numnuts. Just because you lose 10% of your profits, you omg have just HAVE to leave an NPC corp? You aren't supposed to stay in an NPC corp forever. God forbid we want peopl eto work together in an MMORPG, yeah I also hate the people who tell others to shoot people in BF2142, those jerks are just imposing their will on me.
Here is proof:
Originally by: EVE-Online Official Knowledgebase
NPC corporations are not meant for human players. The only time you are allowed or intended to be part of an NPC corporation is when you leave a player corp, in which case the NPC corporation acts as a placeholder until you find a new one. No requests for positions in NPC corporations are accepted and you should thus focus your efforts on finding a player corporation instead.
Some of your nice group of "you shall play as I want group" suggestion:
- tax 10%, 20%, 50% for NPC corps;
- not allowed BS or larger ships, bargers; freighters;
- limit what NPC corp members can buy/sell in market and contracts;
- tax NPC corp members more in market.
Noo, you don't want to impose your playstile. Vall, next time try at least to be honest.
About the piece you cited: it mean that NPC corp are not mean for control by human players.
The whole set of relates articles in the knowledge base is about sovereignty, players corp functions and so on. That piece was put there to explain that you can't do the same in a NPC corp.
Note this phrase:
"No requests for positions in NPC corporations are accepted"
That is the key point of the piece.
It was badly written? Sure. But when CCP has printed clear pieces about game functionality?
If your interpretation was right CCP would have implemented systems to force players out of NPC corps, instead the only people trying to do that are the guys and gals like you..
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Padanemi
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Posted - 2008.09.19 09:23:00 -
[48]
NOT a good idea.
Why tax someone for virtually nothing? They get NOTHING from their corp. So, they should NOT be taxed.
If you dont like the idea that they can not be wardeced, propose that NPC corps can be wardeced.
And watch how that turns into 1-day-player massacre. Hence, no can do.
And why should they NOT be allowed to stay in an NPC corp for more than X ammount of time???? Does anyone force you to switch player corps every once in a while?!?!
It's clever use of the rules. NOT AN EXPLOIT OF THE RULES.
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Rabid Rich
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Posted - 2008.09.19 09:54:00 -
[49]
actually there is nothing clever about it. It is a NO-brainer default exploit of invulnerability, especially now suicide ganking is so nerfed.
I am pretty sure devs once said" nowhere is completely safe once you undock. well, currently and undocked npc corp member is pretty damn safe i'd say.
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Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.09.19 12:12:00 -
[50]
npc cro pplayers limit:
1 reasearch slot
1 manufacturing slot
biggest ship to undock bc
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Sweet Rosella
0utbreak
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Posted - 2008.09.19 12:41:00 -
[51]
protection from war decks should have its costs.
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Silvana Kor'ah
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Posted - 2008.09.20 20:39:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Padanemi
NOT a good idea.
Why tax someone for virtually nothing? They get NOTHING from their corp. So, they should NOT be taxed.
If you dont like the idea that they can not be wardeced, propose that NPC corps can be wardeced.
And watch how that turns into 1-day-player massacre. Hence, no can do.
And why should they NOT be allowed to stay in an NPC corp for more than X ammount of time???? Does anyone force you to switch player corps every once in a while?!?!
It's clever use of the rules. NOT AN EXPLOIT OF THE RULES.
Sorry to say, but you are a moron
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Kage Psychodin
Caldari
The Empire Nation
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2008.09.21 05:09:00 -
[53]
I'm really confused what a lot of the proposed changes on this thread will do -
To the no barge comment - You do know you never really need to dock and a corp can be disbanded whilist you are out in space, right?
On overall taxes -a 0% tax for 3 months, increased by 5% a month to 15% max sounds about right.
On restriction of buy-sell orders - Are you serious? Anyone can have a buy/sell alt in Jita that never undocks and can make a one-man corp. That really can't be fixed.
Freighters - That I can kinda see why, but at the same time, dropping the freighter pilot into a one-man corp would work just as well so as long as you just made one for the purpose of a run and then closed it. I can't see the deterrent there.
Sorry, just poking holes into good ideas where I can so they can become...better?
Another one bites the dust. |
killerco
Gallente
Dutch T2 Production
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Posted - 2008.09.21 09:07:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mister Xerox
In the end... get players OUT of NPC corps, by any and all means available.
you can't force people too leave npc corps. There are people who don't like/want too join a player corp and be vunarable too pvp.
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Eldar Boon
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Posted - 2008.09.21 09:53:00 -
[55]
As a new player I think the NPC starter corps are a great idea. They allow you to find you feet in a hostile universe without the worries of war decs and player corp politics.
Taxing in NPC corps might sound harsh, but I think it's fair considering the protection they provide.
This subject does raise horrible issue of should seasoned players remain in NPC corps. Staying in an NPC corp does allow a player to isolate themselves which really isn't in keeping with the spirit of the game. It's also a ideal habitat for isk farmers and macro miners. However, making people leave NPC corps does seem wrong when you are a active member of the community.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.09.21 11:14:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Some of your nice group of "you shall play as I want group" suggestion:
- tax 10%, 20%, 50% for NPC corps;
- not allowed BS or larger ships, bargers; freighters;
- limit what NPC corp members can buy/sell in market and contracts;
- tax NPC corp members more in market.
Noo, you don't want to impose your playstile. Vall, next time try at least to be honest.
Ok I admit it, I want players to be encouraged to play with other people in a freakin MMORPG. MMORPG are not solo player games and EVE which is built around confict and player interaction should certainly be different from the WoWs of the world.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
About the piece you cited: it mean that NPC corp are not mean for control by human players.
The whole set of relates articles in the knowledge base is about sovereignty, players corp functions and so on. That piece was put there to explain that you can't do the same in a NPC corp.
Note this phrase:
"No requests for positions in NPC corporations are accepted"
That is the key point of the piece.
It was badly written? Sure. But when CCP has printed clear pieces about game functionality?
If your interpretation was right CCP would have implemented systems to force players out of NPC corps, instead the only people trying to do that are the guys and gals like you..
Read it again dude. Read what I linked again and again and again. Claiming that you know what CCP really intends is bullshit. You aren't CCP, you are not psychic, you don't know what they intend. I read what they wrote and NPC corporations are for the following:
-New players
-Players who left a corp and looking for a new one
I don't care if you play the game on a small, casual solo-player level, that is completely supported. But you should not have benefits in doing so, you should have some restrictions. No one wants people forced out of NPC corps and shoved into 0.0 entry systems, but a small penalty for remaining in a NPC corp longer than you probably should is certainly reasonable.
I want new players to be ENCOURAGED to go out and make friends, make enemies, make havoc or make empires or do whatever. But for thousands of players to sit in one system and grind for hours upon end and receive no encouragement to venture outside is just bad.
EVE is a wonderful universe and a lot of people are missing out and quit after a few months due to boredom. They need to be shown the path of awesomeness that is EVE, not herded in high sec and given no reason to ever go outside.
--
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
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ArmyOfMe
Pernicious Creed
Vendetta Alliance.
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:22:00 -
[57]
Will have to agree with this idea, progresive tax is the way to go imo.
eve should never be 100% risk free like it is for some ppl.
Originally by: deadmaus
Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything |
I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.09.21 12:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Will have to agree with this idea, progresive tax is the way to go imo.
eve should never be 100% risk free like it is for some ppl.
Progressive taxing over time is but one step to limit NPC corp campers.
Not being able to close the spammed-to-death NPC corp channel (can't minimize it, only shrink it to a fixed size like your cargo window).
Limit the agents that a NPC corper can use, and their quality, for Nuub schools and NPC schools.
Limit the hull classes that can be used.
What is the 'RP rationalle'? Simple, nuub schools cannot afford to support pilots in larger ships, and their 'schools' are inadequite to the enhanced training needed for higher tier skills. NPC corps, likewise, cannot support the advanced technologies used by the member, and have to tax heavily to support their numerous stations/planets/police, ect.
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Padanemi
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Posted - 2008.09.22 05:50:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Silvana Kor'ah
Originally by: Padanemi
NOT a good idea.
Why tax someone for virtually nothing? They get NOTHING from their corp. So, they should NOT be taxed.
If you dont like the idea that they can not be wardeced, propose that NPC corps can be wardeced.
And watch how that turns into 1-day-player massacre. Hence, no can do.
And why should they NOT be allowed to stay in an NPC corp for more than X ammount of time???? Does anyone force you to switch player corps every once in a while?!?!
It's clever use of the rules. NOT AN EXPLOIT OF THE RULES.
Sorry to say, but you are a moron
I just LOVE sonstructive criticism 
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.22 06:28:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 22/09/2008 06:34:52
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Some of your nice group of "you shall play as I want group" suggestion:
- tax 10%, 20%, 50% for NPC corps;
- not allowed BS or larger ships, bargers; freighters;
- limit what NPC corp members can buy/sell in market and contracts;
- tax NPC corp members more in market.
Noo, you don't want to impose your playstile. Vall, next time try at least to be honest.
Ok I admit it, I want players to be encouraged to play with other people in a freakin MMORPG. MMORPG are not solo player games and EVE which is built around confict and player interaction should certainly be different from the WoWs of the world.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
About the piece you cited: it mean that NPC corp are not mean for control by human players.
The whole set of relates articles in the knowledge base is about sovereignty, players corp functions and so on. That piece was put there to explain that you can't do the same in a NPC corp.
Note this phrase:
"No requests for positions in NPC corporations are accepted"
That is the key point of the piece.
It was badly written? Sure. But when CCP has printed clear pieces about game functionality?
If your interpretation was right CCP would have implemented systems to force players out of NPC corps, instead the only people trying to do that are the guys and gals like you..
Read it again dude. Read what I linked again and again and again. Claiming that you know what CCP really intends is bullshit. You aren't CCP, you are not psychic, you don't know what they intend. I read what they wrote and NPC corporations are for the following:
-New players
-Players who left a corp and looking for a new one
I don't care if you play the game on a small, casual solo-player level, that is completely supported. But you should not have benefits in doing so, you should have some restrictions. No one wants people forced out of NPC corps and shoved into 0.0 entry systems, but a small penalty for remaining in a NPC corp longer than you probably should is certainly reasonable.
I want new players to be ENCOURAGED to go out and make friends, make enemies, make havoc or make empires or do whatever. But for thousands of players to sit in one system and grind for hours upon end and receive no encouragement to venture outside is just bad.
EVE is a wonderful universe and a lot of people are missing out and quit after a few months due to boredom. They need to be shown the path of awesomeness that is EVE, not herded in high sec and given no reason to ever go outside.
Val you can say ENCOURAGED as much as you want, buy your suggestion are about FORCING people, not encouraging.
What should encourage people to play in corporation is the people in the corporation and the support they give. Most corporations instead don't give support to the players but only demand things from them.
If you are so lousy as a CEO that aren't capable of giving better support to a player than what he get in the NPC corp, you should not get a hand from CCP to recruit people.
Corporations have all the instrument to attract players, but they need to be good corporations. Lousy corporations give nothing.
Edit:
BTW, speaking of coherence, why you don't put the face of someone in player corporation here?
At the moment the person hiding in a NPC corporation are you.
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