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Mistress Evita
Booze and Hookers
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:36:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Being made immune to capsuleer corp wardecs is a service well worth paying for.
That right there is the service the tax is paying for.
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Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.10.03 19:41:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Mr Merenque
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Not supported.
Fact is, that there is a significant NPC corp population that are casual players. Fact is that many NPC corp players want to be in an NPC corp so they don't have the hassle and obligations of being in a player corp, rather than the "I don't have to pay taxes" argument. It is a valid playstyle, and I see no reason why this playstyle should be punished.
Well, i guess it's the point of view. You see it like a punishement, but imho it's far from that. Actually, for me it's a bonus reward for not participating in any multiplayer content that is availiable. This is not about punishment, this is about fairness! NPC corps are an exception and not standard. There is no reason why they shouldn't pay taxes as everybody else.
Quote:
If you want to tax players in NPC corps, then I demand the following services in return:
1) The ability to change NPC corp at will (with standing requirement).
2) The ability to put up a POS.
Keep in mind that in addition player corps also have the extra benefits of:
1) Having people around to escort you
2) Having help for missions
3) Organized mining ops
4) Having means to avenge yourself if someone hurt you in any way or just ****es you off
So why exactly should NPC corps extract tax if they do not offer any service besides immumity to wardecs (which CCP stated are pay-to-grief, and are legitimate to avoid by corphopping and other tactics after all).
Your benefits 1-4 have nothin to do with player corps. I play solo as well as i have a hard time finding the right corp/ally. But i have no problems at all to find players in local, help channel or whereever to do missioning together, escort or whatever. It's called fleet, you don't need a player corp for all those things.
Please tell me where you are located any if you have any fittings of value 
Anyone who will just gang with random people almost deserves to get pirated/scammed/
This is not part of my sig.
...Or is it? |
Saraah Leeown
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Posted - 2008.10.04 10:41:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Saraah Leeown on 04/10/2008 10:43:22
I agree. Considering it costs nothing to set up your own 1 man corp, the argument about "not wanting the obligations of being in a player corp" are BS. There's no real reason to be in an NPC corp other than to avoid being war-dec'd. Having to pay a tax for a benefit that those in player corps do not have, only seems fair.
Plus the game could use more isk sinks |
Myryaminda
Caldari
Stellar Research Incorporated
DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2008.10.04 14:37:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Myryaminda on 04/10/2008 14:41:51
Edited by: Myryaminda on 04/10/2008 14:38:43
I don't see why a player in an NPC corp should be taxed.
It feels to me like the rich saying they want to become richer.
If you cannot get people into your own corp because your tax is too high or the "services" you(or your corp) actually provide, are not up to what a player likes to get from corp membership(or the game). You are clearly not doing a good job at informing and/or teaching that (aspirant-)member what the game has to offer.
I myself am not worried about a 10% tax from my corp/alliance, because I want to be in low sec. Not everyone is prepared to pay that price. Accept it. Don't make it mandatory!!
Not supported!!
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Ignition SemperFi
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.10.04 22:26:00 -
[95]
Corp based taxes if NPC would go to nothing. Although i do not like carebears and love to give em grief... The only reason corps have taxes is to help fund corps goals.
NPC corps have no goals therefor leave em alone.
Just because you feel: im "taxed" poor poor pitiful meee, the big meanie NPC guys should too *pout pout pout.
Step 1: Find materials
Step 2: Build bridge
Step 3: Get over it
Oh and THUMBS DOWN on this idea!
------
People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Farrqua
Minmatar
Turbo Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.10.04 23:30:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi
Step 1: Find materials
Step 2: Build bridge
Step 3: Jump Off it
Fixed.
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Davison Rockefeller
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Posted - 2008.10.05 14:17:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Saraah Leeown
Edited by: Saraah Leeown on 04/10/2008 10:43:22
I agree. Considering it costs nothing to set up your own 1 man corp, the argument about "not wanting the obligations of being in a player corp" are BS. There's no real reason to be in an NPC corp other than to avoid being war-dec'd. Having to pay a tax for a benefit that those in player corps do not have, only seems fair.
Plus the game could use more isk sinks
This.
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Mara Devortex
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Posted - 2008.10.05 21:34:00 -
[98]
i said this before in another similiar thread..having a tax for npc corps is pointless..first off if you force npc corp players to pay taxes then you have to make player owned corps do the same..ie they must have a minimum tax= to the npc tax..second to be taxed for a singular benefit as you call it is worthless as well.it will not discourage those big fat isk makers from leaving the npc corp and it will put newer players at risk as well..picture if you will the noob who has less than a million isk and finds him/herself paying more tax than they can make to buy skill books supplies etc..all this so a few more experienced players can have target practice?? bah there are much better ways of expending your energies than finding new ways to disadvantage newer players.
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Dihania
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.10.06 09:27:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Dihania on 06/10/2008 09:28:15
Tax!
It's ok not wanting to PvP and staying in the NPC corps to be protected from it. But there should be a drawback to balance things out.
NPC corp pilots interact with each other, run missions together, mine, so on. They have the multi player part sorted.. nice big channel of people talking , sharing information, having fun.
Edit: plus this would be a very good isk sink.
[hrhr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting. Visit channel "join sniggwaffe" in game.
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.10.06 10:50:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 06/10/2008 10:52:31
Actually I'm going put a different take on the title of this issue, and say that I'm all in favour of purely solo players in NPC corps being taxed. Now as soon as the OP and proponents identify a way to spot a purely solo player, we can talk again. I propose that the tax is cancelled the moment they have fleeted with someone else. Problem solved, they have learned to interact with others...
Originally by: Another Forum'Alt
Anyone who will just gang with random people almost deserves to get pirated/scammed/
You're about two months too late. Fleeting with someone can no longer be scammed, CONCORD rules apply as though you weren't fleeted. Besides, I gang with random people all the time, it's called Factional Warfare. Oddly enough, I don't need to be in a player corp to have fun and PvP.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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Vanessa Vasquez
Universal-Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.06 15:18:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Mara Devortex
paying more tax than they can make to buy skill books supplies etc..
epic 
@ topic
hmm, to get that straight. What kind of guys do we have in npc corp and how would they be affected by taxes?
 new players of course (if we had a dynamic tax, like 0% for the first 1/2 months, then they obviously won't be affected the time beeing a new player. i see no problem here)
all time high sec solo mission runners (would be affected, and maybe some would make their own corp or join player corp/ally once a specific tax rate has been reached. Perfect!)
all time solo miners/traders/industrialists (wouldn't be affected, somehow unfair to mission runners/ratters. But this problem applies to player corps as well, so maybe you start another thread on this issue sometime  )
griefer, ganker, scammer, any scout/trade alts ... (wouldn't be affected much)
So, the only "problem group" affected would be mission runners and mission runner alts, right? Well, it's a start, but as long as market transactions are not included, it's just a drop in the ocean. This beeing said, taxation of market transactions would be a fair deal in general to balance taxes for industrialists/traders and mission/runners/ratters.
Conclusion:
Taxes for NPC corps wouldn't change too much and only punish mission runners, but the reason is that we would still have a missing tax on transactions. As this general problem applies to player corps as well, i see no reason why npc corps should be an exception   Support granted.
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Dex Timor
Forza Di Colpo
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:02:00 -
[102]
Hi,
Let me summarize the OP's problem as he describes it and then demonstrate that he himself is the problem.
- 1)OP's problem: not being able to recruit players from NPC corps.
2)OP's felt problem: lack of tax on NPC corps and NPC corps being safe haven from wardecs.
3)OP's proposed solution: tax players in NPC corps
4)expected result 1: more players play together
5)expected result 2: additional ISK sink
Let's analyze this point by point (and I know that I will be repeating what some people already said):
1) Imagine 3 players: A,B,C.
A is CEO of a 1 man corp and wants a corpmate
B is CEO of a 1 man corp and wants a corpmate
C is in an NPC corp and doesn't want to leave it.
Now A and B want CCP to tax C so he joins either A or B.
If CCP does tax C, there are following possibilities:
- C pays tax. Leaving A,B and C unhappy.
- C quits EVE. Leaving A and B unhappy and C badmouthing EVE.
- C creates his own corp. Leaving A and B unhappy.
- C joins either A or B. (probably the one with the lowest tax) Leaving either B or A unhappy and C wishing he had created his own corp instead.
-> wouldn't the best solution be A and B merging corps and C untaxed in his NPC corp. ?
My point is: recruit people with similar goals, don't force others to adopt yours. Merge with others and put an end to 1 man corps rather then upsetting the communities which build in NPC corps. (Yes, communities in NPC corps do exist)
2) What are taxes used for ? To pay office rents and finance a goal common to the pilots in the corp. The money a member pays doesn't vanish. The money returns to him in the form of a corp hangar, maybe free ammo, maybe a POS in 0.0 ... you name it. If the money in your corp just vanishes, I would suggest you leave that corp a.s.a.p. So why should NPC corp members pay a tax that would be a deliberate amount and a pure "ISK sink" as the OP put it himself. I see no reason. Oh sure, you can't be wardecced ... but then you can't wardec either. But you can still fly to 0.0 and shoot everyone. Vice versa a 0.0 corp gives a damn about wardecs, they live under constant threat. So aren't the high-sec player corps actually hypocritical. They live in peace unless someone decides to wardec them. There is zero danger of losing a ship during peace and a war costs the declaring party isk. Shouldn't all empire corps pay a tax when they are not at war, to compensate for the lower risk compared to 0.0  ?
3) Compare point 1. The OP's inability to recruit likeminded players understanding the need for a tax in return of (insert free items / service here) can only be solved by taxing players which do think differently then the OP Yeah, right. You may lol here ! 
4) The OP expects more players playing together. He didn't say wether he meant cooperatively or adversely though. Actually it doesn't matter because in both cases you need players willing to join a player corp, willing to work towards a common goal, but not necessarily on the same side. (The soldier in North-Corea does the same job as the soldier in South-Corea. Neither of them is a one-man army, but they don't fight on the same side.) So I assume it's more a question of numbers. Let me depict the OP's logic with an analogy. Counter-Strike is a popular FPS game which very well be played 1 vs 1. But it's more fun when there are more players on the server because the tactics and teamwork get more significant. Now the OP sits on a server with only 1 opponent but wished both teams had more players. Now what to do ? Oh yes, of course ... he logs onto the WoW forums and starts a topic: "Why pay to play if you could play CSS for free: join ip. x.x.x.x:x."  Wouldn't it be more logical to search other CSS servers with more players (I have a hunch they like playing CSS at least a bit).
 I ran out of space ...
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Dex Timor
Forza Di Colpo
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:16:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Dex Timor on 06/10/2008 18:17:01
Originally by: Dex Timor
5)expected result 2: additional ISK sink [/*][/list]
5) I may dumb ... I am ... but what does an additional ISK sink have to do with the type of corporation a player joins. Or is it the tax rate. Maybe security status. No ? Faction standings. No ? Gah ... I give up ... I'm not mathematically inclined. 
Last but not least: Demonstrating that the OP is part of the problem and not part of the solution. (You may all hate me ... later, first read)
Imagine 4000 warriors aching for a good fight. Imagine them in following situations.
1) They all are in the same corp. 4000 unhappy warriors: no ennemies at hand.
2) They are split evenly across 2 warring factions. 4000 happy soldiers. 2000 in each camp.
3) They are all split evenly across 4000 warring factions. 4000 angry posters protesting that their 1 man faction has not enough warriors because all the carebears decided not to pay taxes and also avoid war.
Do I have to get more explicit.
... and : no support.
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Belmarduk
M.A.R.S. Enterprises
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.10.06 18:44:00 -
[104]
Mainchar:
Sig removed, only one graphic per sig please. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
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Vladina Krematoria
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Posted - 2008.10.07 16:31:00 -
[105]
ISK sink as a reason to tax new players? well if your gonna bring up that i think ill start a thread about levying a Gate usage fee..yup everytime you use a gate you get charged a graduated fee.lets say 100 isk for high sec graduating to 1000 isk for null sec..hey look it take lots of fuel to keep those babies running! and with the war and what not the empires gotta make up some of the losses right..and besides its a fee that isnt targeted at any one type of player so its actualy fair.
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Mara Devortex
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:01:00 -
[106]
Rubbish
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Vera Floridia
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:02:00 -
[107]
dumb unfair and grossly unbalanced
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Rad Ion
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:03:00 -
[108]
not supported
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Commisioner Saki
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:05:00 -
[109]
cant believe this is even a real proposal..and a CSM supporting this..who they working for anyway..
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kyoku Reiki
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:06:00 -
[110]
for real? ughhh
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Carl Marcus
Gallente
Galactic Waste Management
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:07:00 -
[111]
nope no way no how. lets just get on with playing the game and stop trying to disrupt it with foolish proposals like this
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xiao chin
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:11:00 -
[112]
no support me this thread
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Kyung Tsiung
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Posted - 2008.10.07 20:12:00 -
[113]
no
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Melanie Griffin
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:45:00 -
[114]
lol, alts posting rocks ...
btw ... supported! :)
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Gonzo Humbula
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:46:00 -
[115]
cool idea
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Michele Pfeiffer
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Posted - 2008.10.08 00:48:00 -
[116]
F1-F12
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Mr Merenque
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Posted - 2008.10.08 10:37:00 -
[117]
@ Dex Timor
Thx for your reply. I really appreciate such postings, and you made a good point as well. Though, some of your assumptions are not correct. Let me explain:
1) I don't have a particular problem with recruiting. As many posters have stated before, they wouldn't have people with that attitute in their corp anyways. So am i. My problem with this is, that i find it ridiculous to even get an answer like this! Imho there is a flaw in the system if you get answers like this, because people are encouraged to stay in npc corp with no tax and no risks rather than be encouraged to do otherwise
2) actually, my felt problem is that i see too many players in npc corps! You see them at every gate in high sec you pass by, at every mining belt. Basically no problem, but to get your ore stolen by some canflipper in npc corp without having the option to do anything is "Not so cool". NPC corp miners mining your precious ore away, npc corp mission runners ruining prices with mission loot ... not to mention suicide gankers, scammers etc.
You certainly made a very good point regarding the ISK sink. But honestly, it's hypothetical and doesn't really matter anyways.
An ISK sink = anything you buy from NPC (like skills, POS structures! and such) + transaction taxes/office rents. So, people in player corps paying taxes to fund POS do pay into an isk sink as well, just on another level. Sure, you get that POS and office in return, but what you would buy here in npc, is immunity for any consequences of any actions you take
An ISK sink doesn't have anything to do with the type of player, and i have to agree that i don't see a particular reason for an ISK sink as well. Though npc tax would be one, and i don't see anything bad about it.
6) Something else to think about:
Funny thing is, i do understand players that don't want to join a player corp due to taxes. It's simple. In real world, a corporation's main goal is profit. What makes you think corps within EVE would differ from that? Just because the CEO tells you that you all work for a common goal?
Fact is, a corp must make a profit to exist. You, as an "employee" must (or at least should) evaluate if your "work" gets paid "adequate" (in form of free ammo, community, 0.0 space ... you name it). If you don't, you may just make rich people even more richer.
Eve is all about ISK. You can't speed up your skilling by grinding, but your wealth. And since we have GTC trade, ISK has a real world currency value.
This in combination with zero tax, plus immunity to wardecs, plus anonymity for pirate alts, plus immunity to consequences due to immuntiy to wardecs maybe the reason why we have so many people in npc. But as Vanessa stated, without taxation of market transaction it would just be a drop in the ocean 
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Mara Devortex
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Posted - 2008.10.08 21:25:00 -
[118]
while i definetly empathise with much of your sentiment still i feel you are incorrect suggesting that NPC corp members are immune from consequences..thats what Concorde is for and ccp has finaly addressed some of the issues people had with that. Perhaps if this plan had sufficient leverage for newer players..lets say no longer than 6 months and perhaps those who continualy hop in and out of npc cors..but again by imposing such limits you are presenting ccp with a lot of headache and possibly to the point they would just reject the idea as a whole..but i got to say this..i have rarely been hassled much by npc characters so again this could just be seen as a way to hinder new players and a futile attempt to prevent use of alts. not sufficient reason imho to make such a complex change.
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Jus Lookin
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Posted - 2008.10.26 09:20:00 -
[119]
I vote no.
The OP and most of the others here want to discourage pve players from remaining in pve corps. I hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of players in this game like me. I play Eve because it is the only space game I and my other real life friends can all log into and pretend we are starship captains, working together towards whatever end is entertaining us on a given day.
However, I have this persistant delusion that my character is "better" than in other similar games because of the off-line skill training. I have time to play maybe 1 to 4 hours a week. Some weeks not at all. Eve's training system is good for me.
For my friends and I, our skills in this game suck. Our player vs player skills I mean, some of our characters have lots of points. We have no wish to pvp at all, ever. What is the point? I suppose that is another topic alltogether. But we enjoy reading about the pvp and 0.0 wars in the game we play. We just have no wish to partake of those activities ourselves.
In another year or so Star Trek online will come out, and after this weeks announcement, Star Wars online V2.0 will be out a few years after that, and we will try those games for our pve fix. If they are better than Eve pve wise, we will stay there. If Eve is better, than ccp will continue to get our $15 a month.
CCP is here to make money. Like every corporation, their goal should be to maximize long term profits for their shareholders. This means accomodating mutiple styles of play at the same time. There are people that do not want to pvp ever. Some of them play the game just to talk with others. Some play the game to mine, or to build, or to buy and sell. Some play the game to collect and fly all the pretty little ships. When ambulation is put in, some players will play just to hang out in space stations and flirt with other characters. CCP needs to accomodate these players, or they leave.
Going back to the OP topic, I am still in a newbie corp. Often when asked why I dont join a player corp I give the glib "no tax and no wardec here" answer. The real answer is long and involved, and there is a good chance that the other player won't understand that I just don't care about the parts of the game I am "missing". So...
There are several people (not my real life friends) in my newbie corp that have been there for more than 3 years. They log in often (some daily) and chat, and play the game however they wish. Get over it. |
Hesod Adee
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.10.26 09:36:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Being made immune to capsuleer corp wardecs is a service well worth paying for.
Agreed. I say put the tax at a flat rate for everyone, slightly above what most player corps charge. |
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