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Mr Merenque
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Posted - 2008.09.15 08:35:00 -
[1]
This is just an idea, but while recruiting, i experienced a lot of players who stated that they want to stay in NPC Corp all day cause they have no tax and can't be wardecced. This seems a bit odd.
/Me thinks that a flat 10% tax (or even a dynamical rate depening on the time the player stayed in NPC corp) would be good for eve, as it would encourage some people to join a player corp and play together. And on the other hand (considering the complaints about high sec carebear farmers) we would get a fair system and an additional ISK sink. If players don't want to get wardecced, they stay in NPC and pay taxes like everybody else in a player corp. If they don't want to pay taxes, they can join a player corp or build their own, though having the risk of beeing decced.
Sure, this wouldn't help if the player would go back to NPC corp when wardecced, but that would be another problem to solve then. Maybe something like a 7 day 50%tax rate after leaving a player corp?
Pleased to hear your opinions 
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Mr Merenque
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Posted - 2008.09.15 08:35:00 -
[2]
This is just an idea, but while recruiting, i experienced a lot of players who stated that they want to stay in NPC Corp all day cause they have no tax and can't be wardecced. This seems a bit odd.
/Me thinks that a flat 10% tax (or even a dynamical rate depening on the time the player stayed in NPC corp) would be good for eve, as it would encourage some people to join a player corp and play together. And on the other hand (considering the complaints about high sec carebear farmers) we would get a fair system and an additional ISK sink. If players don't want to get wardecced, they stay in NPC and pay taxes like everybody else in a player corp. If they don't want to pay taxes, they can join a player corp or build their own, though having the risk of beeing decced.
Sure, this wouldn't help if the player would go back to NPC corp when wardecced, but that would be another problem to solve then. Maybe something like a 7 day 50%tax rate after leaving a player corp?
Pleased to hear your opinions
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Malcanis
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.09.15 10:40:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Malcanis on 15/09/2008 10:41:26
Sensible, but no proposal that nerfs ISK farmers will ever be accept4ed.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.15 10:51:00 -
[4]
You know the phrase "no taxation without rapresentation"?
In this situation it will be: "no taxation without services". If a player ina NPC corp can open hangar to share with his alt/friends, plant up a POS (possibly with pay for use services for the corp members, sharing a POS service in one of the NPC corp would be wonderful), it will be ok to pay a 10% tax rate (and even get some form of war dec against against the corp or individual in it).
As long as that is not implemented, there is no corp service you should pay with your tax.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.09.15 11:33:00 -
[5]
Being made immune to capsuleer corp wardecs is a service well worth paying for.
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Mister Xerox
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Posted - 2008.09.15 12:26:00 -
[6]
I agree with Daelin - being immune to the entire premise of the game should have a cost.
10% for the first month or two, then 20% for another month or two, with a daily increase in tax rate of 0.5% (allowing someone to remain in an NPC corp for 200 days before they're at 100% tax) after two to three months.
Leaving an NPC corp reduces the tax rate toward that faction by 0.5% per day while in a player corp. Standings for refines in that faction's stations would be, after leaving the NPC corp, based on the character's standings against the established tax rate they accrued while in the NPC corp.
College corps (i.e. newb schools) should limit players to tier 3 skills max, level 2 agents max, and completely bar their members from lowsec (i.e. newbs should not be able to jump into lowsec/0.0 at all). In an RP sense it's because the colleges simply cannot afford to train pilots to such advanced levels, and for their own personal protection the gates deny passage into 'dangerous' space.
Non-school NPC corps could allow jumps into low/nullsec and have no limitations on the level of skills that can be trained.
But freighters or capital ships could not be flown (just trained), and all mining lasers yeild only 50% of their peak efficiency.
Level 4 quality 0 agent cap.
In the end... get players OUT of NPC corps, by any and all means available.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:26:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Mister Xerox
In the end... get players OUT of NPC corps, by any and all means available.
You can't force people to make themselves vulnerable to PvP, too many will just up and quit. What you can do is impose sufficient penalty that it does not remain THE common sense solution for all players and alliances looking to do trade, industry, logistics, or missions.
The NPC corp residents pay through taxes, the rest pay through the risk of being wardecced. So long as wardecs either lock players into their corporation for the duration or remain active on players after they leave their corp for the duration this could work quite well.
I'd also go so far as to suggest outright banning certain ships from use while in an NPC corp such as cov-ops, recons, exhumers, freighters, and carriers (I'd be all up for all t2 and capitals but that may be considered too harsh). To avoid the use of NPC corps for high level logistics, scouting, and mining. This leaves only pure industrialists and station traders unaffected and they really aren't going to be greatly effected by a war-dec anyway.
I strongly believe that while NPC corp protection and CONCORD need to exist to support certain player groups they should not, by any means, be free. Otherwise there's little practical reason to ever expose yourself to risk.
A sensible NPC corp tax amount would be around 20%, 10% more than typical player corporation tax.
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davet517
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Posted - 2008.09.15 15:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: davet517 on 15/09/2008 15:57:40
My opinion is that there is no tax that you can impose that will cause a dyed in the wool PvE player to do anything other than gripe, or quit. Make it too low, they'll just gripe, and keep right on doing what they're doing. Make it too high, and they'll quit. So, unless your objective is simply to punish them because you don't like the way they play, I don't think you're going to achieve anything.
Here is the fundamental question you have to ask: Do PvE only players belong in this game? If your answer is no, sure, make it as unattractive for them as you'd like. If your answer is yes, what you really ought to be doing is improving the PvE content in empire, 'cause it sucks. The fact that we have PvE only players in this game at all is just a testament to how deeply averse some players of MMOs are to PvP.
I proposed something similar here recently. It didn't get much support. I doubt this will get much support. CCP is moving in the opposite direction. They're floating the idea of enhancing empire, to give the very players you'd be trying to discourage with this encouragment to continue what they're doing, and for more of them to sign up.
As my grandpa used to say, I think you're trying to shovel shit against the tide here.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.15 19:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Being made immune to capsuleer corp wardecs is a service well worth paying for.
Esp with FW there's now a perfect RP reason for taxes. The empires need to pay for their wars so no more free rides for capsuleers.
Personally i think 10% is too low but i support the principle.
---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Tchell Dahhn
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2008.09.15 19:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
Esp with FW there's now a perfect RP reason for taxes. The empires need to pay for their wars so no more free rides for capsuleers.
This.
Supported 100%
We're Recruiting! |
Valen Drax
Amarr
Ex Coelis
The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.09.15 20:14:00 -
[11]
I can agree that the NPC corp should have a negative effect for the privilege of staying out of corporate PvP. The issue is that some people just are not interested in PvP and the NPC corps fulfill that roll. Some people just like to hang out and rat or mine. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue I have though is that NPC corps are used also by experienced players to cause trouble and escape repercussions. While others use an NPC alt for their corporations gain (scouting and the such). So the question is, how to you maintain the play option for those that just want to spend their $15 a month doing that. While getting rid of those that exploit the safety and anonymity it provides.
"Any body who is interesting is mad, In some way or another anyway." Dr. Who |
Draygo Korvan
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.09.15 21:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Draygo Korvan on 15/09/2008 21:35:12
20% for non FW NPC corps if your character is over 2 million skill points, or 3 months old.
10% for FW NPC corps
I think drawing the distinction between FW and Non FW is important. However before the differing tax rates are implemented it needs to be much harder to join/leave a FW corp at will.
Keep in mind tax rates do not harm real newbie activities at all. Low bounty amounts are completely untaxed by the games tax system for example.
--
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Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
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Posted - 2008.09.15 22:20:00 -
[13]
I like the sentiment (encourage people to leave NPC corps and join player corps, and take more risks), but the stick is entirely the wrong way to do it, as has been observed here already - if the penalty is small, the NPC corp community will gripe, not change; if the penalty is large, the NPC corp community will leave. Neither of those outcomes is good for the game.
The carrot is a much better answer. Improved PvE and Empire content (and FW is a good example of both) legitimizes the NPC corp community and gives them more to do. An improved 0.0 experience (I think overhauling sovereignty rules will help a lot with this, to reduce newer alliances' entry barriers) will encourage players who can handle risks to take them.
Sorry, not supported.
---------------------------------
Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.09.16 06:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Valen Drax
I can agree that the NPC corp should have a negative effect for the privilege of staying out of corporate PvP. The issue is that some people just are not interested in PvP and the NPC corps fulfill that roll. Some people just like to hang out and rat or mine. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue I have though is that NPC corps are used also by experienced players to cause trouble and escape repercussions. While others use an NPC alt for their corporations gain (scouting and the such). So the question is, how to you maintain the play option for those that just want to spend their $15 a month doing that. While getting rid of those that exploit the safety and anonymity it provides.
The "privilege" cost is the impossibility to do several things, included setting up POS (with all that POS give, like research, moon mining, ecc.), not having corpmate capable of helping you if aggressed; not having corporate hangars to share with friends.
As usual this kind of post is pretty one sided "they don't want to be our target, nerf them".
BTW: war tax is valid on a RP point of view only if I can choose in what Empire/Pirate/Other NPC corp I will work. If I want to be a SOE citizen and pay the tax to them is should be possible. If not, the status quo is the only acceptable way.
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ian666
Rave Technologies Inc.
C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.09.16 08:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: ian666 on 16/09/2008 08:37:56
Good proposal
Life in NPC corp in some way is a exploit because its like 'Im immune to wars and taxes'. Nobody should be immune to two kinds of that things in same time.
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Qual Kehk
Perkone
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Posted - 2008.09.16 08:39:00 -
[16]
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Plug You
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Posted - 2008.09.16 08:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Plug You on 16/09/2008 08:40:31
Supported 100%
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.09.16 09:07:00 -
[18]
not supported ... NPC corps are limited in services they offer to legitimate players...
If you want to get more wardecs, why don't you propose a decable NPC corp that everybody joins once they were in a player run corp ? I mean you leave your NPC corp, join a player corp and then leave the player corp, you end in a decable NPC corp ... similar to the Militia corps ?
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Che Biko
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2008.09.16 10:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The "privilege" cost is the impossibility to do several things, included setting up POS (with all that POS give, like research, moon mining, ecc.), not having corpmate capable of helping you if aggressed; not having corporate hangars to share with friends.
...
BTW: war tax is valid on a RP point of view only if I can choose in what Empire/Pirate/Other NPC corp I will work. If I want to be a SOE citizen and pay the tax to them is should be possible. If not, the status quo is the only acceptable way.
This ^^^^
and the fact that some players have a hard time finding a PC corp that they would like to join.
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Lia Gaeren
Caldari
Pole Dancing Vixens
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Posted - 2008.09.16 11:39:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Che Biko
and the fact that some players have a hard time finding a PC corp that they would like to join.
If they don't like what's on offer, they can start their own corp and run it how they want to.
It was suggested in another post about looking at Empire, that at least the mission-running part of the NPC corp membership can be enticed out of NPC corps. The solution there is to make the best level 3 agents and almost all level 4 agents not respond to members of an NPC corp, but they will if a PC corp member has high enough standing for it.
This way, those who are solo mission runners because that's what they like to do without being decced, can still do it (although their earnings will be cut as the agent quality decreases), but those doing it as an isk earning mechanism to support other characters are more likely to join a PC corp in order to gain access to better agents and better rewards.
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DEATHsyphon
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:25:00 -
[21]
Edited by: DEATHsyphon on 16/09/2008 12:25:31
Originally by: Mister Xerox
I agree with Daelin - being immune to the entire premise of the game should have a cost.
10% for the first month or two, then 20% for another month or two, with a daily increase in tax rate of 0.5% (allowing someone to remain in an NPC corp for 200 days before they're at 100% tax) after two to three months.
Leaving an NPC corp reduces the tax rate toward that faction by 0.5% per day while in a player corp. Standings for refines in that faction's stations would be, after leaving the NPC corp, based on the character's standings against the established tax rate they accrued while in the NPC corp.
College corps (i.e. newb schools) should limit players to tier 3 skills max, level 2 agents max, and completely bar their members from lowsec (i.e. newbs should not be able to jump into lowsec/0.0 at all). In an RP sense it's because the colleges simply cannot afford to train pilots to such advanced levels, and for their own personal protection the gates deny passage into 'dangerous' space.
Non-school NPC corps could allow jumps into low/nullsec and have no limitations on the level of skills that can be trained.
But freighters or capital ships could not be flown (just trained), and all mining lasers yeild only 50% of their peak efficiency.
Level 4 quality 0 agent cap.
In the end... get players OUT of NPC corps, by any and all means available.
I like the progressive corp tax rate over the months that way it doesn't burden our nooblets who just found eve, but it still encourages people to join corps because each month they loose isk and unlike in a corp it doesnt go anywhere after there taxed.
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I'm not not going to pod you! |
ellie mayer
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Posted - 2008.09.16 12:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
not supported ... NPC corps are limited in services they offer to legitimate players...
If you want to get more wardecs, why don't you propose a decable NPC corp that everybody joins once they were in a player run corp ? I mean you leave your NPC corp, join a player corp and then leave the player corp, you end in a decable NPC corp ... similar to the Militia corps ?
How about everyplayer over 6 months goes into a decable corp.
You're way is making it harder for people to make the leap to a player corp as if they not like it there'll be no way back to the safety of a war dec free npc corp !
The service's a npc corp offers it's members is a tax free income and the safe knowledge that they safe from harm as long as they not get baited or afk around.
Not everyone saying tax them (very few i wager) are looking for war targets as nothing is easier than baiting one player knowing he got no mates waiting to spring the trap etc.
Tax them, why should they get 10% extra income from missions etc.
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fuze
Chosen Path
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.16 13:56:00 -
[23]
I like this idea but like some others said before being in a NPC corp has drawbacks as well.
You can compensate this with eg.
Cheaper insurance at your NPC corp stations.
Cheaper clones at your NPC corp stations.
Cheaper repair costs at your NPC corp stations.
Cheaper lab slots at your NPC corp stations.
Maximum standing bonus refining efficiency at your corp NPC stations. |
Mr Merenque
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Posted - 2008.09.16 16:33:00 -
[24]
well, thanks for your replies so far. I just want to make clear, that my intension was not to nerf nor force players to anything. If someone enjoys playing alone, that's fine. But he shouldn't get rewarded for that!
All serious player corps have taxes (except those holdings...). Giving them immunity to pvp and zero tax at the same time is unfair compared to the casual players.
If possible, it would be cool to have dynamic taxes in NPC corps. They should raise either by total time spend in NPC corps or by skillpoints.
0 - 5m SP = NPC with 0%tax
5- 10m SP = transfer to another NPC corp with 5% tax
...
20-25% tax should be maximum imho.
They would still be free to make their own corp, it's THEIR descission! And this would be fair for the industrialist next door, giving him the opportunity to do something about that competitor ruining his prices with mission loot fe.
Thinking this further, it would also be a good idea imho, if player corps could join an NPC alliance, like it's actually implemented with FW. Joining the specific faction Alliance would render them invulnerable to wardecs, which i find a good thing for new corps. I hear a lot of new players complaining about a pirate corp with 2 year old players just deccing and ransoming. This is not good for EVE, as some of those players might quit rather than sitting docked in a station all time till they pay.
Of course, they would have to pay a tax as well. And after a certain ammount of time in a NPC alliance, maybe some 3 months, the taxes would rise above a level which isn't reasonable affordable.
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Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.16 16:56:00 -
[25]
This be verrrry dangerous ground.
Be careful and tread lightly.
I like where your going with this idea... but don't go overboard.
Also... not every Corp has a Tax Rate.
: O )
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deadEd
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:22:00 -
[26]
Another fine example of a "people don't play this game the way I want them to CCP fix pls!" kind of idea.
An idea like this will end 1 of 2 ways - Mission runners happily eating a small tax, or forming a 1 man corp to dodge restrictions if they're any stricter than that. Yes, this makes them technically vulnerable, but I can't imagine a 1 man corp is terribly appealing to any corp looking to wardec (especially when the 1 target is going to do what they can to avoid fighting).
Still, I guess it's a nice way to screw newbies over until they get into a corp of their own. |
Drake Draconis
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: deadEd
Another fine example of a "people don't play this game the way I want them to CCP fix pls!" kind of idea.
An idea like this will end 1 of 2 ways - Mission runners happily eating a small tax, or forming a 1 man corp to dodge restrictions if they're any stricter than that. Yes, this makes them technically vulnerable, but I can't imagine a 1 man corp is terribly appealing to any corp looking to wardec (especially when the 1 target is going to do what they can to avoid fighting).
Still, I guess it's a nice way to screw newbies over until they get into a corp of their own.
Screwing noobs is never a prospect I wan't to see in any game at any time. Unless it's someone who refuses to learn....
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deadEd
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Screwing noobs is never a prospect I wan't to see in any game at any time. Unless it's someone who refuses to learn....
And that's the attitude that leads to these stupid suggestions - this idea that people have to play the game a certain way. If some random wants to stay in highsec and run missions or mine scordite all day, what's the harm?
Mind you, there's definitely a problem with missions in empire (the risk/reward ratio is completely screwed up), but players in NPC corps are just a small symptom of that problem. Changing this will fix approximately nothing.
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Miukie
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:38:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Miukie on 16/09/2008 17:39:05
Originally by: Mr Merenque
well, thanks for your replies so far. I just want to make clear, that my intension was not to nerf nor force players to anything. If someone enjoys playing alone, that's fine. But he shouldn't get rewarded for that!
And what is my reward exactly?
Originally by: Mr Merenque
All serious player corps have taxes (except those holdings...). Giving them immunity to pvp and zero tax at the same time is unfair compared to the casual players.
Being serious or not as nothing to do with a corp taxe and if those casual player feel this is an unfair advantage all they have to do is join a NPc corp just like I did. But no...I have to change to way I play the to meet there need right?
Originally by: davet517
Here is the fundamental question you have to ask: Do PvE only players belong in this game? If your answer is no, sure, make it as unattractive for them as you'd like. If your answer is yes, what you really ought to be doing is improving the PvE content in empire, 'cause it sucks. The fact that we have PvE only players in this game at all is just a testament to how deeply averse some players of MMOs are to PvP.
I believe that would be the perfect time for CCP to answer this simple question. I æm not holding my breath on this; I know they wont answer. But that would take care of the issue regarding the NPC corper and the level 4 mission.
Edit: And obviously not supported
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Mr Merenque
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Posted - 2008.09.16 17:48:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Mr Merenque on 16/09/2008 17:49:07
erm, sorry guys. it seems you get this thing completely wrong.
@deaded
what has my proposal to do with the way i play this game? I have no benefit of this.
AGAIN, while recruiting players refused cause they pay no taxes in NPC corp!!!!!!
AGAIN, this is about fairness and balancing, not nerfing, not newb bashing, not forcing players to play the game like i do.
@ Miuki
You reward is that you can farm all day in high sec immune to any loses and don't pay any taxes, while all other players do. That's unfair and i can't see any reason why players in NPC corp should not pay taxes. Please enlighten me, why shouldn't they? Does State War Academy not pay office rents ect? 
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