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joydivisionn	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:18:00 - [1] Hey all, After a couple of months in the drake i switched to the raven. more dps was the keyword for me. But after using it for a while, im not verry happy with the active tanking. Is there someone who is having experience with a raven's tank setup as in the drake? that is pully passive (ofcourse with the rigs). and before everyone starts yelling, no, i cant find a passive raven on battleclinic.
Evanade Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:20:00 - [2] Raven or navy raven cannot passivetank, not enough base shield. Rattlesnake can, however. --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored
Felix Dzerzhinsky Caldari Wreckless Abandon G00DFELLAS	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Evanade Raven or navy raven cannot passivetank, not enough base shield. Rattlesnake can, however. Its not about base shields, its about shield recharge. Battleships have terrible shield recharge rates - which is why passive tanking does not work for for battleships. Buffer-tanking however is a totaly different story. ---- GO BLUE!!
joydivisionn	Posted - 2008.09.19 11:51:00 - [4] EFT tells me that with my current skills the recharge time is around the 340 sec's. with a total of 12750 shield capacity. (effective hp is 46,346) but on the other hand, it has over 10k effective hp more than the drake with the same setup. What is buffertanking?
Evanade Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Originally by: Evanade Raven or navy raven cannot passivetank, not enough base shield. Rattlesnake can, however. Its not about base shields, its about shield recharge. Battleships have terrible shield recharge rates - which is why passive tanking does not work for for battleships. Buffer-tanking however is a totaly different story. Actually it is about base shields, because even with terrible recharge, alot of base shield will still result in a good passive tank (see: rattlesnake) --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored
Gul Rashen Perkone	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:25:00 - [6] Edited by: Gul Rashen on 19/09/2008 12:26:11 Originally by: joydivisionn i cant find a passive raven on battleclinic. Ask yourself why. Raven+Passive Tanking=Bad Idea Only Missile-BS that can fit a good passive tank is the rattlesnake. If you wanna stick with the raven use an active, permaboost setup. Otherwise train for the Rattlesnake or the Nighthawk.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:38:00 - [7] Originally by: joydivisionn What is buffertanking? Having enough raw hitpoints (well, "effective hitpoints") that the enemy cannot remove them all before they are dead. If you had 1 million armour HP, for example, you could generally just go into the mission and kill everything without worrying about repairing the damage - since all the NPCs would be dead far before you received enough damage to get through your armour. Then typically you'd go and rep back at a station (with shields you can just dock, but I didn't want to mention them because the passive recharge can confuse things a little). Buffer tanking is generally more viable in PvP, where fights are over quickly and it's generally not possible/desirable to try and full repair/boost/regen the incoming damage, rather than in PvE, where a sustained tank is fairly easy to fit and you're taking damage for a large amount of time.
Mikael Mechka	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:39:00 - [8] Ok, I've not piloted Caldari battleships, but I'll summerise the arguements against a passive tanked Raven. (it's one of those big things where people move from the drake up to a Raven and expect to be able to passive tank it like the drake, resulting in many many forum threads.) Shield HP and shield recharge. In order to have an effective passive tank, you need the shield HP high and the shield recharge low. Battleships have poor shield recharge, making it harder to passive tank. The base HP doesn't help the recharge either. Despite the higher base HP battleships have over battlecruisers, the recharge rate is much much slower. Active tanking is the usual setup for a raven, you need to compensate for the poor recharge and you do so with a shield booster. Yes it eats cap like mad, but there are very few setups that can permatank, those that do tend to need rigs. (No pvp setup I know is designed to permatank either) In regards to buffer tanks: this means stacking as much HP on the main tank (in this case, the shield) in order to give you those few extra seconds to finish your opponent before they finish you. Fitting an obscene amount of large shield extenders on your raven/drake will give you a buffer tank (and in the case of the drake, probably a very good passive tank too, especially if you have shield recharge mods in the lows, or rigs).
Thercon Jair Minmatar InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:45:00 - [9] I guess this is so because a BC or even Cruiser can fit a large shield extender, while a BS can still only fit a large shield extender. Coupled with the fact that they both have around the same number of medium slots while the drake gets a 5% resistance bonus to shields it's pretty obvious that the drake comes out on top, probably even passively recharging more HP than the booster could. Real men do it the hard way: fly Minmatar!
Ljonynja	Posted - 2008.09.19 12:58:00 - [10] I was reading this thread some time ago. Looks to me like the problem is not that the passive Raven is bad, more that the active one is better in pretty much every way. Unless you just happen to have a passive tank fetish.

joydivisionn	Posted - 2008.09.19 15:54:00 - [11] ok, first of all, thx for the reactions, i realy appreicate your input. And yes, flying the passive drake has stolen my heart, no hassle with cap troubles, no forgetting to switch on the modules (yes, i realy forgot that....) so atm i see as only option to save up isk and look for a rattlesnake..... i concider myself as a passive tanking addict so better give in to that then trying setups which will set me back another 200 mil in the end by losing the raven.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.19 17:37:00 - [12] Felix Dzerzhinsky said "Battleships have terrible shield recharge rates - which is why passive tanking does not work for for battleships." Your very wrong as I have been flying passive shield tanked regen battleships for years without any problem. Passive tanking works fine. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
0rch1d	Posted - 2008.09.19 23:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Pottsey Felix Dzerzhinsky said "Battleships have terrible shield recharge rates - which is why passive tanking does not work for for battleships." Your very wrong as I have been flying passive shield tanked regen battleships for years without any problem. Passive tanking works fine. Hmmm . . . alright I'll bite: Please explain, and post some example loadouts, particularly a Raven one. Thanks.
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire	Posted - 2008.09.20 06:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Pottsey Felix Dzerzhinsky said "Battleships have terrible shield recharge rates - which is why passive tanking does not work for for battleships." Your very wrong as I have been flying passive shield tanked regen battleships for years without any problem. Passive tanking works fine. dont you mean shield buffered navy throns? big difference between passive tanking drake style and getting a complimentary 100 dps tank to go with your 35k shield wall
Zo5o Gallente Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.09.20 08:51:00 - [15] I think a CNR can be passive tanked but it would need all the low slots for it, meaning no BCS's, so it would pretty much suck.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.20 11:08:00 - [16] There is nothing that says you CAN'T passive tank a PVE raven (and I hope to god we're talking about a PVE raven), but you'll find that the result is not particularly spectacular. The resulting tank is actually substantially flimsier than a Drake's. I find that with my skills, even if I sacrifice every slot I have to a passive tank I achieve a flimsier tank than the 3 LSE II 3 Hardner II, 2 BCS 2 SPR Drake, and to top it all off I don't actually do any more damage in the Raven when I go down that route. A LOT of players who fly a Drake try to passive tank a Raven thinking the same trick they used in a smaller ship would work in a larger ship. It can be done but it's certainly not effecient and won't give you the security blanket you're looking for. If you REALLY must go for a tank that's fantastically sturdy and requires no management the best option is an XL booster perma tank. With decent skills it's actually surprisingly simple to achieve, and only requires the use of Cap Power Relays (and decent cap skills). Or, if you're really antsy the super expensive deadspace boosters can be acquired, giving you a stronger tank that's easier to sustain indefinitely. Using such a safety blanket should only be done unil you get the hang of missions. Perma boosted setups sacrifice a fair amount of DPS and general utility and it's not necessary. I rarely have to actually shield boost in any given room in a level 4 mission, and I end up using the booster to top my shields back off before I jump to the next room. I don't even rig my mission raven because I don't need the extra tank or cap stability and I can't actually put on a rig to increase DPS thanks to a lack of CPU.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Elitist Cowards	Posted - 2008.09.20 13:19:00 - [17] My Raven was equipped with the following: HIGH 06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I 01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1 01 x SALVAGER I MEDIUM 04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS 01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM 01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER LOW 01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL 01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I 01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I 02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I DRONES 02 x WARRIOR I DRONES 03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES UPGRADES 01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I 01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Sidus Isaacs	Posted - 2008.09.20 13:37:00 - [18] Originally by: Dristra My Raven was equipped with the following: HIGH 06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I 01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1 01 x SALVAGER I MEDIUM 04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS 01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM 01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER LOW 01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL 01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I 01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I 02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I DRONES 02 x WARRIOR I DRONES 03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES UPGRADES 01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I 01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I Was is the right word for it. Now stop spamming this crap.
Radcjk Caldari Dark Star LTD	Posted - 2008.09.20 13:56:00 - [19] Originally by: joydivisionn And yes, flying the passive drake has stolen my heart, no hassle with cap troubles, no forgetting to switch on the modules Thats the trap of passive tanking as well. As soon as a new player learns to use it, they give up on nearly any other legitmate PvE and especially PvP tactic in favor of trying to passive tank every thing they fly because its easy mode in action.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.20 17:10:00 - [20] Edited by: Pottsey on 20/09/2008 17:11:20 Hardtail said " dont you mean shield buffered navy throns? big difference between passive tanking drake style and getting a complimentary 100 dps tank to go with your 35k shield wall" No I don't mean buffer tanks I mean 400 to 1000 DPS tanks, fit some purger rigs T2 if you can, 2 invul fields or better yet two single hardeners and a bunch of shield extenders. Fill the lows with 1 or 2 PDS and SPR's T2 or use beta SPR's if you need CPU. Depending on the battleship that's a 800 to 1000 dps tank against serps which I fight. More then enough, normally I go for damage mods and aim for a 650dps tank. 0rch1d said "Please explain, and post some example loadouts, particularly a Raven one." Fairs enough you want stups but I don't fly Ravens. My Kronos is High's x4, 425mm railguns T2 Mid x2 large shield extender x2 Dread Invul Field Lows x2 PDS x2 SPR x3 Damage mod Rigs x2 Purgers T2 (sometimes I skip the damage mods for more tank and I always try and be in a gang an alt or freind for the 15% hitpoint bonus which in turn boosts HP regen. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)

Betray Caldari The Substitutes	Posted - 2008.09.20 21:10:00 - [21] ehh...u can try the dual pithi b-type setup:) I think Thats as far as it gets...And it have a very nice dps... Hi: Cruise launchers and tractor beams... Med: 2 Pithi B-type Small Shield Booster 1 Shield Boost Amplifier 3 Shield Hardeners.(1 invul 2 racial) Low: 4 Ballistics Control System 1 Damage Control Since more dps was the keyword for you, the 4 BCU pretty much doubles ur DPS:) And the tank is not bad either,should be enough for most if not all lvl 4's There is a thread right now about this setup...you can look in there for a bit... -Betray-
VaderDSL Personal Vendetta Vendetta Alliance.	Posted - 2008.09.21 01:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 20/09/2008 17:11:20 Hardtail said " dont you mean shield buffered navy throns? big difference between passive tanking drake style and getting a complimentary 100 dps tank to go with your 35k shield wall" No I don't mean buffer tanks I mean 400 to 1000 DPS tanks, fit some purger rigs T2 if you can, 2 invul fields or better yet two single hardeners and a bunch of shield extenders. Fill the lows with 1 or 2 PDS and SPR's T2 or use beta SPR's if you need CPU. Depending on the battleship that's a 800 to 1000 dps tank against serps which I fight. More then enough, normally I go for damage mods and aim for a 650dps tank. 0rch1d said "Please explain, and post some example loadouts, particularly a Raven one." Fairs enough you want stups but I don't fly Ravens. My Kronos is High's x4, 425mm railguns T2 Mid x2 large shield extender x2 Dread Invul Field Lows x2 PDS x2 SPR x3 Damage mod Rigs x2 Purgers T2 (sometimes I skip the damage mods for more tank and I always try and be in a gang an alt or freind for the 15% hitpoint bonus which in turn boosts HP regen. I can't get this setup to do anything remotely like that Pottsey 1000DPS tank? Using your setup of 2 SPR's II, 2 PDS II, Purger II and using Kinetic / Thermal Hardener. 20000 shiled HP's roughly (that's with my Gnome 5%'s plugged in and my Siege Warfare Link in a fleet + all shield skills at V) 440 seccond shield recharge. Gives roughly 45 shields per second from that formula, but at *2.4 at peak, roughly that's just above 105hp/s. Am I missing something?
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 01:57:00 - [23] Here comes pottsey with his passive shield tanked megas again... What does it take to convince you a single (faction) lar tanks well enough for any mission? Not to mention the fact you cannot fit a tracking computer and more important an afterburner, wich can cut soooooo much more missiontime than that lame passive tank of yours ever will do. Passive tanking any battleship for missions is in every single case suboptimal. Please, if people try to convince you it isnt, dont lissen to them. It doesnt nessecairly have to be bad, but its suboptimal at best. *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
Irata Skyfire Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:27:00 - [24] I find this an interesting topic since I recently played around a bit in EFT with a passive CNR setup. Now I'm not saying that such a setup is any good, or does really work, since I never really tried it out, and actually never even tried passive tanking at all, but I just couldn't see what could be wrong with it: High x1 Drone Link Augmentor x7 Cruise Missile Launcher II Mid x2 Large Shield Extender II x2 Invulnerability Field II x1 Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field x1 Caldari Navy Heat Dissipation Field Low x2 Shield Power Relay II x3 Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Rigs x3 Core Defence Field Purger II Additionally, I was using the Zainou 'Gnome' KVA2000 and Zainou 'Gnome' KYA2000 Hardwirings for additional shield capacity and recharge rate. Now of course this is a rather expensive setup, but still shouldn't be any more expensive than a gist xl booster based one, and since the really expensive parts are the rigs and hardwirings, it shouldn't make you a profitable suicide target, which was what original got me thinking about this. With my current skills I get a peak self-recharge of 124shield/sec, which is even a tiny bit better than the 120shield/sec a t2 xl booster would provide, with resistances of EM 72.5 Therm 77.9 Kin 69 and Exp 74.1 , which look quite acceptable to me too. Is a passive drake tank really that much better ? And does a passive tank really have to be that much better to run lv4 missions ? Or does this setup have any other significant drawbacks over an active tanking one that I'm overlooking ? Maybe someone with actual ingame experience in that area can comment please ?
Magmus42	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:30:00 - [25] I tried a passive tanked Raven for a little while. It's real cheap, as it requires only tech 2 modules. But you will have a hard time fitting damage mods in the lows, and your tank will be gimped a bit if you are using torps and rigs for missile range. In this case you are better off dropping a few mils for some small pith boosters and fitting an active tank. The torp Raven can fit a decent active tank and still use 2-3 BCUs depending on skills and mods. The reason battleships suck relatively for a passive tank is because there is no BS-sized shield extender (XL). A battlecruiser can fit a LSE which increases its shield HP (and shield recharge/second) by 50%. For a BS, a LSE gives maybe +20% shield HP. Really there should be a XL shield extender for BS which gives maybe +4000 shield HP. This could be pretty uber, however.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Magmus42 I tried a passive tanked Raven for a little while. It's real cheap, as it requires only tech 2 modules. But you will have a hard time fitting damage mods in the lows, and your tank will be gimped a bit if you are using torps and rigs for missile range. In this case you are better off dropping a few mils for some small pith boosters and fitting an active tank. The torp Raven can fit a decent active tank and still use 2-3 BCUs depending on skills and mods. The reason battleships suck relatively for a passive tank is because there is no BS-sized shield extender (XL). A battlecruiser can fit a LSE which increases its shield HP (and shield recharge/second) by 50%. For a BS, a LSE gives maybe +20% shield HP. Really there should be a XL shield extender for BS which gives maybe +4000 shield HP. This could be pretty uber, however. As always, it's a question of balance. There is no shield tanking equivalent for the 1600mm plate unfortunately, we make do with the equivalent of 800mm. If there were XL extenders then you may find Rokhs with a passive tank of well over a thousand DPS and people would cry foul. Since shields regenerate naturally and armor does not the tradeoff is you have a lower EHP than an armor tank but a more effecient active tank. Unfortunately, the active tank is pretty much a thing of the past for most ships and PVP situations because the EHP tank has proven itself superior time and again. Besides, if you wanted a raven that can slap on a few XL extenders along with all those handy torpedos for PVP you'd either have to utalize fitting mods that further reduce your meagre low slots or have a terribly gimped fitting. Our ships are stupidly tight on PG once you start loading short ranged missiles.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:00:00 - [27] Edited by: Pottsey on 21/09/2008 09:04:01 VaderDSL said *"Gives roughly 45 shields per second from that formula, but at 2.4 at peak, roughly that's just above 105hp/s. Am I missing something?" I use 2.5 but even with 2.4 that's a little more than one large amour repairer and you have a shield buffer as well. If one large amour repairer is all you need then 105 HP/s sec shield regen is enough. The buffer gives you time to lower incomeing DPS so the HP regen can tank it. If you need more tank use less damage mods and more PDS/SPR's. Without faction gear it's a 439dps tank solo or 504dps in a gang or 651dps with gang assist. The 800 to 1000 dps passive shield tank setups are without damage mods. 2 or 3 PDS depending if you have the cap implants and the rest SPR should be around about a 1000dps tank give or take a little or over 1200 with gang assist. But I think that level of tanking is over tanking and your better off with more damage, less tank. arbalesttom said "Here comes pottsey with his passive shield tanked megas again..." What does it take to convince you a single (faction) lar tanks well enough for any mission? " It was said you cannot passive tank battleships. I was just proving you can passive tank the mega, Domi, Hyper and Kronos without faction gear without a problem. My generic setup fits on any Gallante battleship and works. No need for faction amour repairers Yes 1 single faction lar tank is enough for missions. You don't need to convince me of that as I already know it's true. But if you're flying with a friend for the 10 to 15% hitpoint boost then the none faction passive tank setup matches the faction lar tank pretty closely and the passive tank does just as much damage with a rack of 425mm railguns and 3 damage mods. Sure if your flying solo the faction lar tank does come out on top by a little bit over the none faction passive tank. But I perfew that hitpoint buffer and low cap drain over the very low buffer and high cap drain of an amour tank. But really both work fine in missions without a problem which is all I wanted to get across. No one ever said the passive tank was better than an amour setup, only that the passive tank setup works well. arbalesttom said "Not to mention the fact you cannot fit a tracking computer and more important an afterburner, wich can cut soooooo much more missiontime than that lame passive tank of yours ever will do."** So you fit 3 damage mods, AB, tracking computer and still have enough tank without cap problems? Please show me this setup. I couldn't get it working with the afterburner. Unless you only use the afterburner for short bursts or only after the rats are dead and amour repairers are off. In Which case I would swap the AB for a web. Anyway I don't agree on am AB or tracking computer, they hardly save you any time. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:14:00 - [28] Edited by: Pottsey on 21/09/2008 09:15:12 arbalesttom said "Passive tanking any battleship for missions is in every single case suboptimal." If you want subopitmal try this one , yes I really do have this ship and fly it for fun for lvl 3's. I guess it could work for lvl 4's but not dared risk it yet as its only a fun mess around ship. Domi Lows x7 SPR's Mids x5 Shield Rechargers Rigs x3 Purgers T2 Drones only due to no cap and I don't have projectile skills. 814dps tank on serps with gang assit, 604dps with gang, 525 solo. 48 second shield recharge. That's 48 seconds from 0 to 100%. I must time it one day but it's something silly like 10seconds from 25 to 70%. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
People Eater No Limit Productions Capital Storm	Posted - 2008.09.21 15:14:00 - [29] Edited by: People Eater on 21/09/2008 15:16:10 I used a passive tanking Raven a LOOOOONNNNG time ago when I first began playing eve before trying an active setup. It had it's upsides like going afk for a few minutes for a few missions and it's downsides such as doing much less dps and the tank isn't good enough for many lvl 4's. That being said, here is a setup that you could use if you really have your heart set for a passive Raven lol. Highs: 6x cruise missiles 2x tractor beam/salvager/whatever Mids: 3x Hardeners 3x Large Shield Extender II's Low's: 6x Shield Power Relay II's (you're missing out on a bunch of ballistic control systems here ) Rigs: 3x Core Defense Shield Purgers Drones: Medium drones of your choice Now you get around 19,219 shield hp with a 243 second recharge meaning your shields raw regeneration rate is in the area of 197hp/sec at 30% shields. ((19,219 / 243) x 2.5) Arbalest cruise missiles will be doing around 240 dps with moderate skills and non-faction ammo and t2 hammerheads around 150. Not that significant. You can screw around with the setup as you see fit for whatever use, but really active tanking is the way to go :)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.09.22 02:03:00 - [30] Originally by: People Eater Edited by: People Eater on 21/09/2008 15:16:10 I used a passive tanking Raven a LOOOOONNNNG time ago when I first began playing eve before trying an active setup. It had it's upsides like going afk for a few minutes for a few missions and it's downsides such as doing much less dps and the tank isn't good enough for many lvl 4's. That being said, here is a setup that you could use if you really have your heart set for a passive Raven lol. Highs: 6x cruise missiles 2x tractor beam/salvager/whatever Mids: 3x Hardeners 3x Large Shield Extender II's Low's: 6x Shield Power Relay II's (you're missing out on a bunch of ballistic control systems here ) Rigs: 3x Core Defense Shield Purgers Drones: Medium drones of your choice Now you get around 19,219 shield hp with a 243 second recharge meaning your shields raw regeneration rate is in the area of 197hp/sec at 30% shields. ((19,219 / 243) x 2.5) Arbalest cruise missiles will be doing around 240 dps with moderate skills and non-faction ammo and t2 hammerheads around 150. Not that significant. You can screw around with the setup as you see fit for whatever use, but really active tanking is the way to go :) This is what I hate about the passive ship. In return for the safety blanket of a capless tank that's fairly sturdy I get a ship that does less DPS than my Drake (Using T1 missiles my HML Drake delivers 415 DPS and sports a slightly sturdier tank). The Raven may work in such a fashion but you sacrifice the one real benefit of using a Raven over a Drake - damage. Also, as a side note the standard raven only has 5 low slots but you indicate 6 on your fitting.



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