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Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:14:00 - [31] Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2008 05:14:35 Originally by: Kulmid The ISK that you paid for it is not flowing out of the economy. If there is 1million total ISK in the economy, and you pay 500 thousand ISK for a module, then you destroy that module, there is still 1million ISK in the economy. Not an ISK sink. just for clarification purposes, ISK sink = ISK removed from the economy, not something that holds ISK value. Destroying a module would help cause inflation, not work against, like an ISK sink does. lol that is not how it works. Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m.
Oregon sinful The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:29:00 - [32] Edited by: Oregon sinful on 21/09/2008 05:30:13 Originally by: Veldya lol that is not how it works. Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m. The problem is you are accounting assets as isk. Assets are indeed WEALTH however they are not isk. the total Gross value for your system may indeed be 2million isk in wealth, however the net isk actually in the system is 1million until player A goes out and shoots a rat for 100k. __________
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.21 05:48:00 - [33] Originally by: Oregon sinful The only place ISK is actually generated is from missions/npcing. All the other ISK in the game now is the same ISK as it's passed around. Without Bounties on NPC's or rewards for missions no new isk would be introduced into the economy. NPC trade goods are bot a isk faucets (when sold) and a isk sink (when brought). Last year there were some pretty furious threads as some alliance was using the titan jump bridge and a fleet of reighters to move NPC goods from a region to another, apparently with several billions of gains every trip. No idea if it is still done. Another BIG isk faucet is ship insurance. Every time a ship is destroyed isk enter the economy. Originally by: Oregon sinful And the only time any isk is ever removed from the game is when someone buys something from an npc, pays a cspa charge or removes a characture from the game. So as a matter of fact there really is only one isk faucet, the other ways of "making" money are all down to finding good/effecient ways of getting someone else to give you the isk that's already in the economy in return for a product. As Per INFLATION there really is inflation because while you can argue that T2 Prices have dropped dramatically that is a very twisted argument because of, invention. The reason and the sole reason T2 is cheaper is because of invention. If it wasn't for invention I'm sure that Cap recharger II's would still be 15 million each. The fact that a 3rd party reached in to the system and changed something so intricate and completely reformed the fundamentals of the market, makes that pov argument null. If you really want to measure inflation you have to take a sample of low value, not necessarily price... meaning unimportant, seldom bought items, Mid value and high value items and compare price increases for all samples. I think you'll find that while t2 has been reduced in price most everything else has gotten a little more expensive. The problem is that there are no adequate baskets to measure inflation: - mineral prices are influenced by the insurance (NPC activity); - T1 module prices are influenced by mineral prices and T1 drops in missions; - T1 ship prices are influenced by insurance; There are only 3 things with little influence from NPC actions: - faction stuff dropped only by NPC and not sold in the store; - T2 ships and modules; - ship components for T2 and capitals. No one of those is a good indicator for inflation. Maybe you can add capital ships price.
Kulmid Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.09.21 06:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Veldya lol that is not how it works. Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m. Just because you have something that is of ISK value does not mean it is ISK in the economy. Say you rat in the drone regions, if you loot the alloys and sell them, that is not and ISK faucet, by your definition it would be. You would think CCP would have added things like, "Amarr", "CCP", "Microwarpdrive", etc. to their forum dictionary.
Mika Meroko Minmatar Crayon Posting Inc	Posted - 2008.09.21 07:56:00 - [35] have to add in: to really cal inflation, you use everyday commodities... and yeah... T1 and T2 have been dropping in prices.. it hurts my wallet too, being a manufacturer.... but materials cost (with the exception of morphite and selected moon minerals which are.. errrm, yeah..) dropped as well.. overall, I see deflation... not inflation... if its inflation, your 100 mill now will not buy you anywhere as much as before..(say 2 yrs ago..) while now in eve-reality, 100 mill can buy ALOT of stuff compared to before... and yeah, is silly to go with officer mods when determining this.. (even faction can be farmed..) you are talking about luxuries here... common item (amno, ships, T1 and even T2) is the standard to see how much buying power your isk has.... and the GTC thing... theres an whole other issues with Isk-seller (the farms) snapping them all up... Originally by: CCP Atropos I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.09.21 08:44:00 - [36] The only ISK injection in this game is from NPC Bounty, mission payouts and insurance payouts. ISK sinks are NPC market items like T1 BPO's, Insurance setup fees, clone fees and npc office and factory rental costs. Everything else is ISK flowing from one player to another (even GTC's dont magicaly spawn isk) and thus have nothing to do with inflation.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:05:00 - [37] Edited by: Tippia on 21/09/2008 09:08:15 Originally by: Veldya lol that is not how it works. Actually, it is. You're mixing up two separate types of wealth. Quote: Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m. No. Property is not ISK and ISK is not property. Even though you can exchange one for the other, you can't count them in terms of eachother because there is no set relationship between the two. There is no such thing as a "1M-ISK-module" — only some particular item that has been assigned an arbitrary and completely changeable price. Player A has 1M ISK. Blayer B has an SPRII. The total wealth of the economy is 1M ISK and 1x SPRII Player A buys the SPRII. The total wealth of the economy is 1M ISK and 1x SPRII Notice that the cost of the SPRII doesn't matter: he could have bought it for 50 ISK or 500k or 1M, and the economy wouldn't have changed — the total would still be 1M ISK + 1x SPRII. (If he managed to buy it for 2bn on some non-existing credit, the situation becomes a bit more fun, though). Player A destroys the SPRII. The total wealth of the economy is 1M ISK. All that has happened is that some property has left the system. The amount of ISK remains the same. This is why ship destruction is actually an ISK faucet: the property is gone, but the insurance payout creates ISK out of nowhere and adds it to the economy.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.21 09:40:00 - [38] Originally by: Veldya Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2008 05:14:35 Originally by: Kulmid The ISK that you paid for it is not flowing out of the economy. If there is 1million total ISK in the economy, and you pay 500 thousand ISK for a module, then you destroy that module, there is still 1million ISK in the economy. Not an ISK sink. just for clarification purposes, ISK sink = ISK removed from the economy, not something that holds ISK value. Destroying a module would help cause inflation, not work against, like an ISK sink does. lol that is not how it works. Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m. You're doing it very very wrong. Assets != ISK. Items changing hands, items blowing up is NOT ISK leaving the economy. We will not walk in fear of one another.
Antoine Lefevre Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:13:00 - [39] Insurance creates huge amounts of isk. I think CCP should control SCC so that even though it's an npc corporation it should make profit.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:25:00 - [40] Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2008 11:27:00 Too many moronic comments to quote. Say you own **ing Microsoft and have no cash in your bank, are you ing wealthy or not? Jesus ing christ, how thick are you people? ASSETS CAN BE ING CONVERTED INTO ISK I was running low on isk and converted a gist type C XL SB into 1.5b isk, the money in the bank seem **ing real to me.
Antoine Lefevre Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Veldya ASSETS CAN BE ****ING SOLD FOR ISK Fixed
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:29:00 - [42] Originally by: Antoine Lefevre Originally by: Veldya ASSETS CAN BE ****ING SOLD FOR ISK Fixed It is still part of the wealth of EVE. If it sits in your bank or sits in other forms of assets is irrelevant. It is still a part of the economy. A lot of people sit on a freaking fortunes in minerals and goods, irrespective what cash they have on hand they are freaking loaded.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Veldya Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2008 11:27:00 Too many moronic comments to quote. Say you own **ing Microsoft and have no cash in your bank, are you ing wealthy or not? Jesus ing christ, how thick are you people? ASSETS CAN BE ING CONVERTED INTO ISK I was running low on isk and converted a gist type C XL SB into 1.5b isk, the money in the bank seem **ing real to me. Just go away ok, youre not helping your cause any. We will not walk in fear of one another.
Antoine Lefevre Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:31:00 - [44] Originally by: Veldya Originally by: Antoine Lefevre Originally by: Veldya ASSETS CAN BE ****ING SOLD FOR ISK Fixed It is still part of the wealth of EVE. If it sits in your bank or sits in other forms of assets is irrelevant. It is still a part of the economy. A lot of people sit on a freaking fortunes in minerals and goods, irrespective what cash they have on hand they are freaking loaded. What does assets have to do with the amount of isk in the game? You're probably in the wrong thread.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:42:00 - [45] Originally by: Antoine Lefevre What does assets have to do with the amount of isk in the game? You're probably in the wrong thread. Someone quoted something I said that items being destroyed is not money leaving the economy. Then started this ****ed discussion. Saying items, minerals, etc do not count as part of the economic system is just ****edly stupid the poor CCP economist must be writhing in pain laughing at these economic threads.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:43:00 - [46] Originally by: Evelgrivion On average, what is the net total of ISK added to the economy each day? How much is added from the faucets (Ratting, NPC commodities, Mission payouts, insurance)? How much goes into the sinks (Taxes, Manufacturing costs, Blueprints, Starbases and Modules, Outpost components, Clone Costs, Insurance policies, Office Rentals, etc)? Just curious. What's in it for CCP in letting us know this data? What's the benefit to us as the playerbase in knowing just how out of wack the economy is? Don't get me wrong. I'd like to know this stuff as well. It just occurs to me that from CCP's perspective, it may be something they aren't exactly dying to tell us. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.09.21 11:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Veldya Originally by: Antoine Lefevre What does assets have to do with the amount of isk in the game? You're probably in the wrong thread. Someone quoted something I said that items being destroyed is not money leaving the economy. Then started this ****ed discussion. Saying items, minerals, etc do not count as part of the economic system is just ****edly stupid the poor CCP economist must be writhing in pain laughing at these economic threads. What you are missing is that the discussion wasn't about the "economic systems" but the "isk quantity in the economic system". Two very different things.
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Veldya Someone quoted something I said that items being destroyed is not money leaving the economy. Then started this ****ed discussion. Saying items, minerals, etc do not count as part of the economic system is just ***edly stupid the poor CCP economist must be writhing in pain laughing at these economic threads. No-one is saying that assets aren't part of the economic system. What they are* saying is that assets are not money. ISK is money. Items and minerals are assets. You can (usually) trade one for the other but they are not the same thing. Assets leaving the system does not decrease the amount of ISK any more than ISK leaving the system decrease the amount of assets. Likewise, you cannot "convert" one to the other (with a couple of exceptions) like you describe — only trade them against eachother. Assets and money are completely separate entities that exist side-by-side in the economy. If you could just convert them, then a Raven would be exactly, say, 100M ISK (to use some random number), and 100M ISK would buy you exactly 1 Raven. If you look at the market, you'll notice that this isn't the case: since you're trading rather than converting, what you have to pay for that Raven, and how much you can get for those 100M ISK is in constant flux. The only value you can be sure of is that one Raven is worth exactly one Raven; 100M ISK is worth exactly 100M ISK. The second you try to express the value of one in terms of the other, you're only dealing with guesstimates. The exceptions to this rule, all of which are NPC-related, are: Buying from NPCs (LP store, skill books, BPs, trade goods): Converts money into assets (ISK sink, item faucet). Selling to NPCs (trade goods): Converts assets into ISK (ISK faucet, item sink). Insurance payout: Converts assets into money (ISK faucet, item sink).
Jovoich Infestation. The Church.	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:24:00 - [49] /me would love to see a WOW topic on the ingame economy. When anyone ever questions me as to why I play a 'kids' game, I think I will just linky em to this. P.s. any free stuff going begging?
Jovoich Infestation. The Church.	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:30:00 - [50] Edited by: Jovoich on 21/09/2008 12:30:03 double post FTW!
Kyle Klanen	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:49:00 - [51] Originally by: Veldya I was running low on isk and converted a gist type C XL SB into 1.5b isk, the money in the bank seem ****ing real to me. Ok so if the player who bought that shield booster from you losses it because his ship died does the ISK get removed from your wallet? no it does not.
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.09.21 12:55:00 - [52] Actually, EVE (and CCP) is falling into the same trap that has plagued MMO's since the early MUD days. The problem is that the games creators don't want people to stop playing, so they don't want anyone to 'lose'. In EVE this means that everyone is allowed to progress to bigger and more expensive ships quite fast, and that moneymaking is not a real problem for anyone (20-30m/hour for L4 missioning). This manifests itself in game currency flowing faster into the game than out, and it will eventually kill the economy of the game in question. Items that are under some constraints will continue to rise in value, while other items with no real constraint will become more and more 'worthless' in the sense that the cost of them will be proportionately less of players accumulated wealth over time. In the old MUD's this showed itself in older players having so much money that they'd routinely give out cash to newbie in amounts that the newbie couldn't even spend! In EVE it shows itself in rising prices of rare items, alliances building wast numbers of (super)caps, in the BS now being 'throwaway' ships (while T1 cruisers/frigates aren't used anymore), and in alliances increasingly funding ships for their players... All in all, the economy IS becoming unravelled, and anyone who'd played a MUD in those days can see it. It follows the classic MMO pattern for 'inflation', which is NOT comparable with real-world inflation. CCP will eventually have to take steps, or just see the economy of EVE become pointless. They need to increase the flow of ISK out of the game, and possibly invoke some feedback mechanisms that control that flow dependent on how much money is owned by presently active characters (with some kind of harsh definition of 'active'). The one thing they could immediately do is remove insurance! Insurance both acts as a floor under mineral prices (which is unhealthy in itself), but also provides a large unhealthy game-currency infusion. Other measures could be: 1. Change ALL blueprints to require some amounts of components sold ONLY by NPC's (refining doesn't recover them) 2. Higher jump-clone costs (much higher). Cost of 'jump' dependent on distance. 3. Raise prices for station factories/labs significantly when producing 'high-end' stuff. 4. Reduce ISK inflow in general (halve ALL bounties maybe???). #1 of the above fits nicely with a monitoring mechanism for available ISK. If the ISK/char drops then the price of the goods could be reduced, and reversely if the amount rises. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Polymeric Jane	Posted - 2008.09.21 13:03:00 - [53] I would raise taxes on market transactions! This is where the isk is. This would be an efficient and sustained (right word?) regulation method. I would not touch any of the mechanics mentioned before (missions, insurance, etc.). They are as they are to have fun with the game. If I had to run missions for a week 24/7 to compensate for the loss of a BS I would lose the fun in eve.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 13:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: Veldya Edited by: Veldya on 21/09/2008 11:27:00 Too many moronic comments to quote. Say you own **ing Microsoft and have no cash in your bank, are you ing wealthy or not? Jesus ing christ, how thick are you people? ASSETS CAN BE ING CONVERTED INTO ISK I was running low on isk and converted a gist type C XL SB into 1.5b isk, the money in the bank seem **ing real to me. Just go away ok, youre not helping your cause any. Hes the idiot that claimed you could making 100mil an hour chaining spawns in venal in an ishtar. Logic and reasoning doesn't apply.
Gamesguy Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 13:19:00 - [55] As for inflation, eve isn't really suffering from inflation. The real world equivelent of whats happening to eve would be a rise in the general standard of living/individual purchasing power. This is great in real life, but bad for eve, as it basically means everybody is more or less rich and losses are pretty meaningless.
Evanade Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.09.21 14:12:00 - [56] Originally by: Gamesguy This is great in real life, but bad for eve, as it basically means everybody is more or less rich and losses are pretty meaningless. The problems that arise from this is that several 'fixed' values, like ship built cost, starbase purchase and maintenenace cost (arbitrary values set by ccp) now start to become more and more meaningless as people gain more wealth. The rapid ISK value increase of officer and deadspace items over the past 18 months testifies to this, people can more easily afford the 'regular' things, thus they have ISK to waste on expensive goodies. --------------------------- sok alt - main got banzored
Anahid Brutus TunkbwahCorp GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.21 15:26:00 - [57] Originally by: Gamesguy As for inflation, eve isn't really suffering from inflation. The real world equivelent of whats happening to eve would be a rise in the general standard of living/individual purchasing power. hm you're right of course, eve does not have a problem with excess money being printed
Von Kleist Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.09.21 15:38:00 - [58] Originally by: Gamesguy As for inflation, eve isn't really suffering from inflation. The real world equivelent of whats happening to eve would be a rise in the general standard of living/individual purchasing power. This is great in real life, but bad for eve, as it basically means everybody is more or less rich and losses are pretty meaningless. err, I agree with this post.
Evelgrivion Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.21 19:11:00 - [59] I'd love to have the figures for the original post; can we have them, CCP?
Hegbard	Posted - 2008.09.21 21:06:00 - [60] Originally by: Veldya lol that is not how it works. Okay, let me use your example. Eve only has two players, player A and Player B. Player A has 1m in isk, Player B has 0isk but has a module worth 1m isk. That means the total isk in the economy is 2m. Player A buys the module from player B so now Player A has 0 isk but a module and player B has 1m isk and no other assets. Player A destroys the module, he now has 0 isk and no assets so the total isk in the economy has dropped from 2m down to 1m. It's so easy to shred this to pieces. Player A has 0 ISK Player B has a module "worth 1m ISK" Now what? Does the economy have 1M ISK in it? Let's say that player B needs to pay rent for his hangar in a station and that rent is 1M ISK. What does he do? He can't magically convert his module to ISK. Therefore, the amount of ISK in the system is 0. Even using your numbers. Player A has 1M ISK. Player B has a module "worth 1M ISK". Both need to pay 1M rent for hangars. Now what?

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