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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.09.21 23:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 21/09/2008 23:40:26
Ive got the 411 on, gun tracking, fall off, missile distance exc.)
But still a little unclear about how increased sig radius from a MWD effects how guns track you. So far I gather that it depends on whether the guns are S,M, or L.
---In forum Info says larger guns have the hardest time hitting (repeatedly) the dead center of a large target where as medium and small guns can do it better... and obviously the smaller ones have better tracking.
My question is this:
If you beat the guns tracking, does the increase in sig radius matter? Being that you are out running the tracking speed?
And/or does the sig increase make you have to move faster in order to bleed off damage by getting closer to (or beyond) the guns tracking?
Clarification of this concept would be much appreciated.
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Zarnak Wulf
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Posted - 2008.09.21 23:42:00 -
[2]
Take a look at the tracking guide. Signature radius matters. It is part of the tracking forumula. I've run countless equations simulating x gun shooting at x target, and then the same gun getting the benefit of a target painter. There is always a higher chance of hitting the target with a larger sig radius.
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Grahv Exitus
Minmatar
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.09.22 00:26:00 -
[3]
I think what the OP is asking is that if you drastically outrun a guns tracking, would the massive increase in sig radius from using the MWD really count for anything? That if the gun just absolutely can't track you, does it matter how large of a target you present?
My guess is yes, that as you orbit the turret, eventually you'll intersect it's firing lane and the increase in sig radius will make it able to hit. But I'm not 100% on that as I've never run any experiments.
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Xori Ruscuv
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.09.22 00:31:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 22/09/2008 00:31:24
 Originally by: Grahv Exitus
My guess is yes, that as you orbit the turret, eventually you'll intersect it's firing lane and the increase in sig radius will make it able to hit. But I'm not 100% on that as I've never run any experiments.
No... unless it has changed in the last year or so, hit chance isn't based on anything like turret position or ship roll, because none of that is calculated or considered... it's just based on the turret's ability to track a turret and the ability for that turret (which has a sig res X) to hit a target (which has a sig rad Y).
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Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.09.22 01:41:00 -
[5]
Sig radius vs tracking is fairly straight forward. A 5x increase in sig radius cancels out a 5x increase in transversal.
Sig radius and transversal has the same impact on tracking.
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Jethro Jechonias
Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2008.09.22 03:56:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Sig radius vs tracking is fairly straight forward. A 5x increase in sig radius cancels out a 5x increase in transversal.
Sig radius and transversal has the same impact on tracking.
This!
More tracking, slower transversal, and larger signature radius all of the same effect on your DPS as all of the above are multiplied together in the forumla for your turret's chance to hit.
It is also important to understand that the balancing point, where turrets tracking equals angular velocity and resolution equals radius, is set for a 50% chance to hit resulting in 40% of your EFT reported DPS.
As such you want to aim to over track your target, either because of low transversal, large signature radius, or what ever means that you can.
You don't achive 100% EFT specified DPS until you are over tracking by 6.4x.
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Kadoes Khan
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Posted - 2008.09.22 06:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Sig radius vs tracking is fairly straight forward. A 5x increase in sig radius cancels out a 5x increase in transversal.
Sig radius and transversal has the same impact on tracking.
This is correct.
-=^=-
"Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity." |
Tug Garvey
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Posted - 2008.09.22 07:45:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Tug Garvey on 22/09/2008 07:45:48
Originally by: Kadoes Khan
Originally by: Gamesguy
Sig radius vs tracking is fairly straight forward. A 5x increase in sig radius cancels out a 5x increase in transversal.
Sig radius and transversal has the same impact on tracking.
This is correct.
So if i paint a target enough my Abaddon will be able to hit that nano-vagabond?
edit:wrong char but meh.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.22 07:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tug Garvey
So if i paint a target enough my Abaddon will be able to hit that nano-vagabond?
Yes (mind you, TPs are stacking nerfed too). Mind you, our geddon pilots don't have a lot of issues hitting nano-stuff now.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Galan Undris
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Posted - 2008.09.22 08:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tug Garvey
So if i paint a target enough my Abaddon will be able to hit that nano-vagabond?
edit:wrong char but meh.
An MWDing, shield extended vaga is already close to a kilometer in radius, so it's not really that hard to track to begin with ;)
Both TC's and painters are stacking penalized, but not against each other, so you can use them together to boost your tracking the same way a nano ship stacks mass reducing and speed increasing modules against each other to minimize penalties. A single tracking computer (+30%) and a target painter (+36% @lvl4 skills) will boost tracking by almost 77%.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.09.22 08:48:00 -
[11]
Keep in mind that you can shoot at target the size a small moon and still miss if it's transversal is higer than your tracking.
The guns simply do not turn fast enough and no amount of signature increase will help with that. This is the basis of speed tanking, to go fast enough to defeat tracking and missile explosions.
The place where signature matters most is for more distant targets that are going at speeds below tracking but are smaller than the signature resolution of your guns thus only allowing for light hits and near misses.
Another thing worth remembering is that if the tracking is enough to hit a target, but he is further out than optimal+2x falloff (ie. max gun range) you still have a 1-2% chance of scoring a wrecking hit regardless - this is one of the reasons why a tracking mod can be better than a 3rd or 4th damage mod.
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2008.09.22 09:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Keep in mind that you can shoot at target the size a small moon and still miss if it's transversal is higer than your tracking.
This is incorrect. There is no cutoff in the hit-chance formulas.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.22 09:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Keep in mind that you can shoot at target the size a small moon and still miss if it's transversal is higer than your tracking.
The guns simply do not turn fast enough and no amount of signature increase will help with that. This is the basis of speed tanking, to go fast enough to defeat tracking and missile explosions.
Uhhh, no 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.09.22 09:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Galan Undris
This is incorrect. There is no cutoff in the hit-chance formulas.
What you are describing is a to-hit formula based purely on gun resolution vs. sig resolution with tracking being fluff only, somehow I doubt that is the case.
If this was true then nanoes would not require rapier and neutralizers to counter, just a gun with enough range. As much as I love the Retribution for its range and the tracking ability of small lasers this is not what I am seeing.
Also does not play well with the dogma that a sieged dread has a hard time hitting a moving battleship even though the signature calcaulation should give ~50% chance.
Try having an interceptor orbit you close range with mwd on, his orbit will be wide 6-7km but unless you have a web to reduce his transversal you will have zero chance at shaking him off unless you have uber-tracking.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.22 10:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Galan Undris
This is incorrect. There is no cutoff in the hit-chance formulas.
What you are describing is a to-hit formula based purely on gun resolution vs. sig resolution with tracking being fluff only, somehow I doubt that is the case.
If this was true then nanoes would not require rapier and neutralizers to counter, just a gun with enough range. As much as I love the Retribution for its range and the tracking ability of small lasers this is not what I am seeing.
There IS no cutoff in the hit-chance formulas (teorethically, of course, you can only hold so many decimal places in a data type). However, for all practical purposes, 0.1% hit chance is totally invulnerable (hell, anything below 5-10% is de-facto useless).
Sig radius vs sig resolution is just a multiplier to the tracking speed v angular velocity.
As for nanos, my triple falloff rigged Hurricane forces them off preety easy. Hell, my arty cane forces off the slower ones very effectively too. Of course, they have enough speed and EHP to always disengage (unless you've got enough Amarr BS there, making disengagement tricky business at times). Killed quite a nice bunch of interceptors, because they don't have the EHP to disengage.
The reason why close-range orbits make you much harder to track (but you got webs to counter that) is the fact angular velocity increases sharply as you get closer, while you don't get a tracking boost up close due to distance (which is a mistake, really).
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Kazuma Saruwatari
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.09.22 10:24:00 -
[16]
5x sig radius = -5x radial/orbit/transversal speed
5x radial/orbit/transversal speed = -5x sig radius
I hope thats clear enough.
Basically, you'd want to go as fast as possible relative to whoever is shooting at you with the smallest sig radius you can show to his sensors to properly avoid damage.
Interceptors do this very well, even on AB's (for the lulz)
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2008.09.22 10:28:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 22/09/2008 10:33:11
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Galan Undris
This is incorrect. There is no cutoff in the hit-chance formulas.
What you are describing is a to-hit formula based purely on gun resolution vs. sig resolution with tracking being fluff only, somehow I doubt that is the case.
Tracking is not fluff, they are equals in the product used to calculate hit chance. Try the calculator in the tracking guide, and their relationship should become apparent. Modifying one has exactly the same effect as modifying the other.
Quote:
If this was true then nanoes would not require rapier and neutralizers to counter, just a gun with enough range. As much as I love the Retribution for its range and the tracking ability of small lasers this is not what I am seeing.
Then you're not seing right. You need long range webs and neuts to catch nanos, hit them with drones or missiles, not to hit with turrets and drive them off. Gun ships will hit nanoed cruisers if set up to do so. Interceptors are harder since they're a LOT smaller.
Quote:
Also does not play well with the dogma that a sieged dread has a hard time hitting a moving battleship even though the signature calcaulation should give ~50% chance.
A sieged dread has tracking several orders of magnitude less than even a long range BS (megabeams with lvl5 skills i siege has 0.00071 rad/s with 1000m res (2.5 penalty compared to BS guns)). That creates a veeery steep faloff, and hit chance will drop to almost zero as soon as the target moves even slightly. Have a look at the scales used on dread guns and then see what happens in the formula with those kind of numbers.
Quote:
Try having an interceptor orbit you close range with mwd on, his orbit will be wide 6-7km but unless you have a web to reduce his transversal you will have zero chance at shaking him off unless you have uber-tracking.
An interceptor is tiny, almost 1/10th the size of a cruiser (the minnie ones are less than 25m, not sure about the others), so you need almost 10 times the tracking to hit consistently at the same speed. That's why.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
The first genesis
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.09.22 10:34:00 -
[18]
Sorry but you are just wrong hirana, the others are right.
My cane got bit issues hitting nanos for much damage without fall off rigs (i should really buy them), but my harb for example can easily hit most nanos for good damage. The issue isnt hitting them, it is preventing them from just mwd'ing out of scram range and then warping out.
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Eternum Praetorian
Tupperware Party
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Posted - 2008.09.22 12:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
5x sig radius = -5x radial/orbit/transversal speed
5x radial/orbit/transversal speed = -5x sig radius
I hope thats clear enough.
Basically, you'd want to go as fast as possible relative to whoever is shooting at you with the smallest sig radius you can show to his sensors to properly avoid damage.
Interceptors do this very well, even on AB's (for the lulz)
This helps very much, thank you.
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
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Posted - 2008.09.22 12:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Galan Undris
Originally by: Tug Garvey
So if i paint a target enough my Abaddon will be able to hit that nano-vagabond?
edit:wrong char but meh.
An MWDing, shield extended vaga is already close to a kilometer in radius, so it's not really that hard to track to begin with ;)
Both TC's and painters are stacking penalized, but not against each other, so you can use them together to boost your tracking the same way a nano ship stacks mass reducing and speed increasing modules against each other to minimize penalties. A single tracking computer (+30%) and a target painter (+36% @lvl4 skills) will boost tracking by almost 77%.
And even better, the TP doesn't have to be on your won ship to get the bonus. If you're tight on midslots, have another ship in the gang use the painter (preferably something like a Vigil with a bonus) and you'll still find it easier to track - in this case with a benefit of 91% to tracking if a player with Frigate V uses it on a Vigil, or 168% (taking stacking into account) if they cram two TP on there.
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Rajere
No Trademark
Notoriety Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.22 13:40:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Rajere on 22/09/2008 13:44:26
Edited by: Rajere on 22/09/2008 13:42:59
5x Sig Radius = -5x Transversal is true, but the problem is stacking multiple bonuses with no stacking penalty for speed. If MWD was simply 5x speed, 5x sig radius, we'd be golden. But it's not.
Ishtar, T2 ODs, Nanofibers, and MWD. T1 Polycarb rigs. LG Snake set and 3% Rogues.
MWD off: Sig Radius 145m2. speed 514m/s
MWD on: Sig radius 942.5m2 (650% increase), speed 5,585m/s (1,087% increase)
In gang with Mindlinked Claymore running Skirmish warfare gang mods:
Sig radius 698.63m2 (Only a 482% increase), speed 8,687m/2 (1,690% Increase)
Note Transversal Velocity != Velocity. Not saying that.
With decent piloting skills you can realize a large % of your velocity as transversal, either manually flying or adjusting your orbit so that you're mantaining enough of your max speed to maintain transversal while also not getting out too far where the guns can actually track you due to distance (this is only a factor b/c of Scorch, other close range guns can't hit that far and long range guns can't track you regardless)
Not including stats for Overheating since generally you overheat to GTFO of dodge and are burning directly away from whatever it is you're running from, ie not alot of transversal. However the speed bonuses from overheating are definitely a factor to be considered (12.7km/s with claymore, 8.1km/s without, Also Overheating does not effect your sig radius). You can travel from Multifrequency Range to out of Scorch range faster than say a Geddon can switch his crystals (crystals switch instantly mind you) much less before the next cycle of his shots go off, say if he had scorch loaded already and fired his last round before you decided to GTFO and started overheating and burning straight out (giving him a clear low transversal shot)
How to Fail at Eve
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