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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Udonor
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:25:00 -
[61] - Quote
What no cries from the other side about religious tolerance?
Church of Darwin: Bullies exist to make sure the weak don't breed.
Always a few honest true believer types. Just don't make your love of EVE too obvious to the RL world.
I still want to play in the house CCP built. Please don't incite the mob to set it on fire. |
Courthouse
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
219
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Welcome to our new Sony overlords. May your stay be as long and successful as your run at Star Wars Galaxies was. |
Michiko Kat Sterling
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:This game is changing and will continue to change, the days of Fanfest being a bunch of drunks hamming it up was over the minute that CCP partnered with Sony and entered the mega corp world of entertainment.
It is sad to see so much Goonie whining here the last couple days. I thought tough guys and bad guys were made of stiffer stuff.
I would hate to think the Goons consider carebears as the only people capable of tears, but apparently I was mistaken. I for one would love to see a goon fleet massed against a high sec fleet of everyone who doesnt like them. Let it be decided on the field of battle just like the old days.
The time is over for forum posts i guess, time to duke it out in low sec. |
Andrea Griffin
204
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 01:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
I expect many of the events at FanFest to be loud, funny, informal, and contain some adult language from time to time, but the behavior at the Alliance Panel this year was pretty distasteful overall. It's difficult to show Eve to my friends and entice them to play when some of the largest alliances in Eve take to the stage and spend the whole time acting like immature prats.
This was my opinion before the whole Mitanni Incident, but what happened there was the final straw for me. I'm very happy to hear that CCP will be keeping a closer eye on things to keep them going out of control.
I'm not looking for the awkward, utterly sterile corporate atmosphere either; there's a lot of room in between and, really, if people could just tone down the language somewhat that would be a big improvement. Just a nudge in the opposite direction. A little more class.
It's a shame that the whole event this year is going to be remembered for a few seconds of drunken audio. Hopefully next year will be better.
Also, my Quafe shirt is awesome. : > CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Crovan
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 02:06:00 -
[65] - Quote
In the immortal words of half a dozen shirtless devs, HTFU. |
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 02:28:00 -
[66] - Quote
Quote:CCP in no way condones the harassment of players
So what game am I playing?? Let me get my hulk and head back to hi-sec and test this one.... I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1105
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 02:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
Desert Ice78 wrote:Quote:CCP in no way condones the harassment of players So what game am I playing?? Let me get my hulk and head back to hi-sec and test this one....
EVE Online is a harsh, cruel world. The people populating EVE Online are referred to as "capsuleers", "characters" or (in still-can't-recite-the-alphabet circles) as "toons". (pardon me while I go have a hot shower to wash that taint off my soul)
It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges.
While not necessarily a crime in most jurisdictions, recommending a course of action in the virtual world with the intent of achieving some negative outcome in the real world is at the very least morally shady.
Clear as mud?
|
Bojan Z
Kernel of War Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 02:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
I'm glad I was at this year Fanfest. I'm not likely to be at the next one. |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 02:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Navigator wrote: CCP in no way condones the harassment of players,
You have got to be kidding me. That line had to be a joke. CCP most certainly does condone this type of behavior. It is encouraged and lauded and bragged about and used as a point of advertisement. You push it all over the internet that Eve is the place where people are allowed to treat others as poorly as possible. The worse you treat others the better and the more press time you give it.
Further if anyone complains about the culture that CCP has purposefully and intentionally created of people mistreating others they are referred to the song written and preformed by Perma Band, and band consisting purely of CCP Devs and employees, in which they are told in no uncertain terms to " Harden The **** Up ".
You condone this behavior, You encourage it, You foster it, You cultivate it. I suspect the only reason you choose to deny it here and now is because someone in your legal department got a hold of you and told you that if this guy does kill himself you guys could be held liable for it. This dev blog is a disclaimer to try and disassociate CCP from any accountability for it's actions.
As far as the law is concerned this may server to insulate you from any financial punishment but in the world of action and consequence what happened on that Alliance panel is a direct result of the environment that you, CCP, have willfully and intentionally created, fostered and nurtured. You may be able to fool the law of the land but you can't fool the law of action and consequence.
|
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
86
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:06:00 -
[70] - Quote
This
Quote:It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges.
Don't blame CCP, blame The mittani, he is the one that forgot about the EULA! Shame on him, becouse he wasted all the votes of people that trusted in him!
Eve is serious business! But this is also a game! No one plays it to be greefed! And CCP should Really enforce this! People should have fun playing it! not being told to suicide! Also CCP should take what is said and reported in the forum more seriously!
Also I really hope that CCP fix other greefing mechanisms in game! Enough of AFK cloakers! |
|
Atrum Veneficus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
Here is the official Goonswarm Federation response to CCP "growing up" and throwing The Mittani under the bus.
http://i.imgur.com/J42oU.gif
Enjoy! |
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:07:00 -
[72] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges.
While not necessarily a crime in most jurisdictions, recommending a course of action in the virtual world with the intent of achieving some negative outcome in the real world is at the very least morally shady.
Clear as mud?
This is far from the first time that mitani himself not to mention the goons as a whole or the player base in general have harassed someone with the stated intent of causing emotional harm to the real person behind the toon . The only difference that I see in this particular situation is that mittens was drunk enough to say it how it is. A sober person would have know not to actually say what mitani said but the intent and actions other than that have been replicated countless times in Eve and openly supported by CCP.
Mitani did not attack the guy in the real world. Mitani did not give out the guys real name nor any other personal information. Mitani did not ask anyone to harass the man in anyway in the real world. He gave out the guy's character name and told people to harass the character in game, with the hopes of causing the actual human behind the character emotional harm, grief and shame to name a couple. It's called griefing and it happens in eve all the time and is openly encouraged by CCP. The only difference here is that mitani openly stated if someone wanted to push the guy to kill himself then do so. Had Mitani instead invited people to grief this guy until he sank into a depression which lead to alcoholism or caused him to kick and abuse the neighbors' dog or something short of suicide we would not be reading an apology from Mitani or CCP. |
Skyreth
Revelation of Wrath
9
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
Goon tears best tears. If people can't tell what sort of behavior is acceptable, their loss.
If Mitt had not told people to go and abuse that person, and had not given out the name...he'd have gotten away rather unaffected. But telling people on a live feed to find this person and abuse them is way beyond EVEs usual "tough love" play style.
As for if this were a real government official; If a real government official had told people on television to contact someone and abuse them to make them kill themselves...Yeah, they'd get the boot. Or at least, they would in any country with a sense of self respect and decency.
This was also an action against the EULA on a far more public and open venue than in-game. A venue anyone with any intelligence would have figured would not be appropriate for such remarks. But then...he does represent Goonswarm...so yeah...
That being said, I'll stand by the guy that was targeted by Mitt. No one deserves that sort of thing. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Tribal Conclave
86
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:
It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges.
While not necessarily a crime in most jurisdictions, recommending a course of action in the virtual world with the intent of achieving some negative outcome in the real world is at the very least morally shady.
Clear as mud?
This is far from the first time that mitani himself not to mention the goons as a whole or the player base in general have harassed someone with the stated intent of causing emotional harm to the real person behind the toon . The only difference that I see in this particular situation is that mittens was drunk enough to say it how it is. A sober person would have know not to actually say what mitani said but the intent and actions other than that have been replicated countless times in Eve and openly supported by CCP. Mitani did not attack the guy in the real world. Mitani did not give out the guys real name nor any other personal information. Mitani did not ask anyone to harass the man in anyway in the real world. He gave out the guy's character name and told people to harass the character in game, with the hopes of causing the actual human behind the character emotional harm, grief and shame to name a couple. It's called griefing and it happens in eve all the time and is openly encouraged by CCP. The only difference here is that mitani openly stated if someone wanted to push the guy to kill himself then do so. Had Mitani instead invited people to grief this guy until he sank into a depression which lead to alcoholism or caused him to kick and abuse the neighbors' dog or something short of suicide we would not be reading an apology from Mitani or CCP.
And do you realy think that if i kill someone whille drunk I can blame the alchool?
He was suposed to be an example....
Also he was not arrested... he just got banned and removed from the CSM... this is as virtual as his offense... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1105
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 03:33:00 -
[75] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: This is far from the first time that mitani himself not to mention the goons as a whole or the player base in general have harassed someone with the stated intent of causing emotional harm to the real person behind the toon.
[citation needed]
The ice interdiction, hulkageddon, etc: all brilliant strategies to gain commercial advantage within the game. In game activities impacting in game activities.
Can you provide some references to situations where players engaged in particular campaigns with the intent of causing emotional harm to the real person behind the character?
|
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
91
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:This Quote:It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges. Don't blame CCP, blame The mittani, he is the one that forgot about the EULA! Shame on him, becouse he wasted all the votes of people that trusted in him! Eve is serious business! But this is also a game! No one plays it to be greefed! And CCP should Really enforce this! People should have fun playing it! not being told to suicide! Also CCP should take what is said and reported in the forum more seriously! Also I really hope that CCP fix other greefing mechanisms in game! Enough of AFK cloakers!
EULA = End User License Agreement A document describing users rights and obligations with respect to a piece of software.
Last time I checked, it doesn't apply to marketing events, much less to non-employees at a marketing event. "The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
91
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Skyreth wrote:Goon tears best tears. If people can't tell what sort of behavior is acceptable, their loss.
If Mitt had not told people to go and abuse that person, and had not given out the name...he'd have gotten away rather unaffected. But telling people on a live feed to find this person and abuse them is way beyond EVEs usual "tough love" play style.
As for if this were a real government official; If a real government official had told people on television to contact someone and abuse them to make them kill themselves...Yeah, they'd get the boot. Or at least, they would in any country with a sense of self respect and decency.
This was also an action against the EULA on a far more public and open venue than in-game. A venue anyone with any intelligence would have figured would not be appropriate for such remarks. But then...he does represent Goonswarm...so yeah...
That being said, I'll stand by the guy that was targeted by Mitt. No one deserves that sort of thing.
The CSM is not a government entity. It is a customer advocacy group, or at best a panel of customers.
"The Mittani isn't even gone for a day and CCP's management is already making bad decisions."
THE MITTANI for CEO of CCP 1-800-273-8255 |
IsTheOpOver
88
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:25:00 -
[78] - Quote
"CCP finds this behavior morally reprehensible."
Good show CCP.
From the sound of Alex in his State of the Goonion he was pretty much ok with everything CCP did up until this blog.
April 28th eh? Alrighty then!
|
Desert Ice78
Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us
84
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:28:00 -
[79] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Desert Ice78 wrote:Quote:CCP in no way condones the harassment of players So what game am I playing?? Let me get my hulk and head back to hi-sec and test this one.... EVE Online is a harsh, cruel world. The people populating EVE Online are referred to as "capsuleers", "characters" or (in still-can't-recite-the-alphabet circles) as "toons". (pardon me while I go have a hot shower to wash that taint off my soul) It is entirely possible to have a virtual world where violence and treachery are the expected behaviour between characters, while still enforcing standards of behaviour between players in the real world. If you were playing Mortal Kombat, your character is expected to smash the snot out of the opponent. If you were to smash the snot out of the other player, you'd be going to court facing assault charges. While not necessarily a crime in most jurisdictions, recommending a course of action in the virtual world with the intent of achieving some negative outcome in the real world is at the very least morally shady. Clear as mud?
Indeed it is. I'm going to get a Mack, fit it with a civilian shield booster, sit in a Gallente ice belt and decry to all and sundry in local that I am mentaly unstable..... I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg
CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused. |
Gevlin
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
121
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:32:00 -
[80] - Quote
Please include the following Administrated Controls to be in place:
1. Require people on the panel to be sober. 2. Insure that any reference to an individual names are removed from any slide show. 3. Put player created (IE CSM Panel, Alliance Panel, open mike night) content to be televised delayed at the end of the presentations ( like the security presentation was completed. )
This is your fan fest please keep it under control. Apparently you can't rely on the eve community and the media to react responsibly. I agree with several people: CCP needs to focus most of eve's recources on FIS, but the development of WIS still needs to continue, just as a slower and more efficient pace. In eve I wish to be more than just a machine. |
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Yakumo Smith
The Forsakened Companions
27
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:50:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP sets the tone of Fanfest with it's events.
You can't have drunken quizes on one hand and demands for sobriety and people to "grow up" on the other. |
Dek Kato
eHarmony Inc. Brushie Brushie Brushie
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 04:58:00 -
[82] - Quote
This entire debacle has done more damage to my opinion of CCP than the long string of mismanagement that led up to Monoclegate and Incarna. Overreacting to the yellow journalism that made this story as big as it was will do nothing but harm the sandbox. This is blatant kowtowing to those same crappy gaming sites, who by the way won't cover this action or update their inaccurate articles (many of which as good as claimed this was basically a CCP sanctioned gangbang of one player). The damage has been done, but CCP has decided that rather than accept the risk that comes with their sandbox, they'd rather abuse their EULA by apparently including real life actions outside of the game. Or do presenters sign waivers acknowledging that by presenting, they are agreeing to abide by in-game rules? I rather doubt it. Also they're apparently ignoring the fact that THEIR moderator allowed it, and that THEY broadcast these comments MULTIPLE TIMES.
Mittens comments were not OK, but in the end absolutely zero harm was done, and the player in question has openly admitted that he doesn't really care. Disenfranchising 10k voters (thus making a sham of the CSM...again) and then threatening the entire culture of Fanfest, great response. I was dead set on getting to Iceland next year, but honestly now I can think of far better uses of the money given that I now have no clue what the event will be like. Maybe we can start breathalyzing panelists! Hell, better breathalyze at the door and stop the pub crawls, EULA breaking content might occur!
Stop living in fear of the media, CCP. I do understand that you're trying to control your legal liability here should a player actually do something as a result of comments like these, but this is a **** poor reaction. Next dev blog you post about "growing up", please include a link to for unsubscribing from for my convenience. |
Alcaeus Cetsuun
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 05:15:00 -
[83] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:CCP Navigator wrote: CCP in no way condones the harassment of players,
You have got to be kidding me. That line had to be a joke. CCP most certainly does condone this type of behavior. It is encouraged and lauded and bragged about and used as a point of advertisement. You push it all over the internet that Eve is the place where people are allowed to treat others as poorly as possible. The worse you treat others the better and the more press time you give it. Further if anyone complains about the culture that CCP has purposefully and intentionally created of people mistreating others they are referred to the song written and preformed by Perma Band, and band consisting purely of CCP Devs and employees, in which they are told in no uncertain terms to " Harden The **** Up ". You condone this behavior, You encourage it, You foster it, You cultivate it. I suspect the only reason you choose to deny it here and now is because someone in your legal department got a hold of you and told you that if this guy does kill himself you guys could be held liable for it. This dev blog is a disclaimer to try and disassociate CCP from any accountability for it's actions. As far as the law is concerned this may server to insulate you from any financial punishment but in the world of action and consequence what happened on that Alliance panel is a direct result of the environment that you, CCP, have willfully and intentionally created, fostered and nurtured. You may be able to fool the law of the land but you can't fool the law of action and consequence.
This really. I don't think for a second MOST people take all the BS bravado about being "hard" and evil etc. seriously. And I truly doubt permabands song was meant to be taken seriously in any way..at least I hope so. If it was..lol :p
We are all sitting in front of PCs playing an online video game in the end. Can't get much softer than that I'm sorry to inform everyone. There ARE hard, mean and tough people on this planet...none of them sitting at home whining on some forum.
But clearly some people do take all this too seriously. So I hope CCP is being sincere here. The past couple days after seeing what happened and also so many of the responses it is apparent A LOT of people have really lost perspective and need a reality check at least. |
Reiisha
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc. Dawn of Transcendence
99
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 05:34:00 -
[84] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:CCP Navigator wrote: CCP in no way condones the harassment of players,
You have got to be kidding me. That line had to be a joke. CCP most certainly does condone this type of behavior. It is encouraged and lauded and bragged about and used as a point of advertisement. You push it all over the internet that Eve is the place where people are allowed to treat others as poorly as possible. The worse you treat others the better and the more press time you give it. Further if anyone complains about the culture that CCP has purposefully and intentionally created of people mistreating others they are referred to the song written and preformed by Perma Band, and band consisting purely of CCP Devs and employees, in which they are told in no uncertain terms to " Harden The **** Up ". You condone this behavior, You encourage it, You foster it, You cultivate it. I suspect the only reason you choose to deny it here and now is because someone in your legal department got a hold of you and told you that if this guy does kill himself you guys could be held liable for it. This dev blog is a disclaimer to try and disassociate CCP from any accountability for it's actions. As far as the law is concerned this may server to insulate you from any financial punishment but in the world of action and consequence what happened on that Alliance panel is a direct result of the environment that you, CCP, have willfully and intentionally created, fostered and nurtured. You may be able to fool the law of the land but you can't fool the law of action and consequence.
There's a difference between players and characters.
CCP never condoned player harassment. It's in the TOS.
Character harassment however is just fine.
I'm very sad to see that so many people don't see or even understand the difference.
|
Mutheer Lelmata'eb
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 05:39:00 -
[85] - Quote
I like how devs seem to make a thread and then run away, never answering a question as to how the eula applies to "out of game actions." |
Skyreth
Revelation of Wrath
12
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 06:14:00 -
[86] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Skyreth wrote:Goon tears best tears. If people can't tell what sort of behavior is acceptable, their loss.
If Mitt had not told people to go and abuse that person, and had not given out the name...he'd have gotten away rather unaffected. But telling people on a live feed to find this person and abuse them is way beyond EVEs usual "tough love" play style.
As for if this were a real government official; If a real government official had told people on television to contact someone and abuse them to make them kill themselves...Yeah, they'd get the boot. Or at least, they would in any country with a sense of self respect and decency.
This was also an action against the EULA on a far more public and open venue than in-game. A venue anyone with any intelligence would have figured would not be appropriate for such remarks. But then...he does represent Goonswarm...so yeah...
That being said, I'll stand by the guy that was targeted by Mitt. No one deserves that sort of thing. The CSM is not a government entity. It is a customer advocacy group, or at best a panel of customers.
A lot of people come up with the argument that a real politician would not lose their job over something like this, so I was arguing against it. Thats all.
|
Madame Fanney
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
4
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 06:18:00 -
[87] - Quote
You know itGÇÖs not CCPGÇÖs fault The GREAT Mitt-ens decided to take something too far, HeGÇÖs the one who put CCP in the position to HAVE to do something.
I find myself deliciously scrolling through to find the goon (the new pubies) whiny crying posts.
Goon tears are like Gold SNOT SNOT!!
|
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
582
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 06:20:00 -
[88] - Quote
Dev blog wrote:It is moments like this that remind us that there are people beyond the characters we encounter and everyone in the EVE universe should always treat other players with a base human level of respect and decencyGÇöwhether enemies or not. We would be remiss not to use this as a chance to revise our event and communication strategies.
CCP and the community of EVE Online need to understand this, and we, CCP, will be taking serious steps towards fostering a better environment at our panels and beyond. Thank you.
EVE online is a game where we can explore a "darker side" of human interaction. Non-consentual PvP, scamming, etc. are all things that make this game great. But in such an environment, we have to be more careful about when we hurt the player behind a character. Every player has to take more responsibility for their actions, and be more mindful of respecting other players.
I understand that this is not easy for all players. But if you can't keep yourself in check, if you can't be mindful of another player's feeling, if you can't respect the player behind an enemy character, EVE is not a good game for you. |
Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
487
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 06:24:00 -
[89] - Quote
Madame Fanney wrote:You know itGÇÖs not CCPGÇÖs fault The GREAT Mitt-ens decided to take something too far, HeGÇÖs the one who put CCP in the position to HAVE to do something. "something" is covered by ban, removal from the CSM and public apology
threatening to give up on fanfest (you know, that event where players and devs get stupidly drunk together) and turn it into a politically correct mini-blizzcon is something else entirely.
don't invite NVidia or Sony reps if they can't handle it but please don't kill fanfest. |
IsTheOpOver
89
|
Posted - 2012.03.29 06:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
Yakumo Smith wrote:CCP sets the tone of Fanfest with it's events.
You can't have drunken quizes on one hand and demands for sobriety and people to "grow up" on the other.
I agree with this.
It's also the reason why a perma-ban would have been far too severe.
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