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Myra2007
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.24 14:25:00 -
[91]
Just to nitpick a little:
5x Megathrons will die horribly to 3x Armageddons and 2x Falcons.
This is not a problem at all and has nothing to do with overspecialization
of megathrons. 5 Armageddons die to 3 Megathrons and 2 Falcons just as easily. While i largely agree with your analysis (who wouldn't) statements like this are a bit deceptive.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.09.24 14:37:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 14:38:41
 Originally by: Myra2007
Just to nitpick a little:
5x Megathrons will die horribly to 3x Armageddons and 2x Falcons.
Quoting that as a issue is being completely deceptive and mis-constructing the issue in order to kill the discussion. It's, in short, a intentional mis-direction.
The issue is that 2 Armaggedons are better then two Megathrons. 2 Abbadons and it's not even worth discussing.
In a sub 5 man gang, the gang with Armaggedons/Abbadons instead of Megathrons simply does a better job. In anything from 5 men to N, the gang with Armaggedons/Abbadons is still better, meaning they do small, medium and big gang better, and solo just as well if you consider the Abbadon. 
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Katy Karkinoff
Minmatar
Psycho Chicks
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Posted - 2008.09.24 14:40:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
...with Minmatar getting "win button nano setups
Uhhh, no. Actually the Vagabond (the pinacle minmatar nano-ship) is pretty much a mediocre nano-ship and some say it is one of the worst. They get eaten by Curses, they have terrible range and terrible cap. Curses/Ishtars destroy tanks and do huge non-tracking DPS, a Sac can perma mwd and do a good amount of missile DPS. Zealots can pew pew with pulse at enourmous ranges and a Cerb @150km going 2.5km/s takes forever to catch.
Minmatar are cetainly NOT the nano-race.
Other than that point, your post is good, what is the point of a blaster ship if you cannot catch anything?
It is a very sharp edge between blaster ships being able to catch everything and everything being able to get away from balster ships and laugh at them.
But as you are, I am bored waiting for the new balance changes to arrive on Sisi so all this arguing is pretty much moot.
Wrong. Vaga will go the fastest for the cruisers period, giving it the most survivability. On top of that, the disgusting buffer and shield resists it has makes it the most difficult to work through. And while being in deep fall off may be obnoxious, it still deals enough damage to kill its usual targets (ratters). And it cant have its weapons blown up. You sir, probably do not play eve.
My perspective comes from flying the ishtar and flying with friends who fly the sac and vaga.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.09.24 15:24:00 -
[94]
First of all sorry for posting my comment without reading all 4 pages of previous posts.
The longer I think about the role differenced/advantages/disadvantages of different races, the more I come to the conclusion that diversity wins Eve.
The beauty about this game is, that you are not nailed down to one specific race. You can fly the Arazu? Fine, a few days (exaggerated but you get the point) to get you into a Falcon, soon after that a Rapier or Pilgrim. If you have the possibility to warp right on top of the target(s), why not bring a Megathron? If you know you are in for a long range engagement, bring some good snipers and leave the Megathron at home.
At the end of the fight the winner will usually be the one who had the better information and could prepare in advance.
That does not mean that necessarily all ships are perfect in their specific role - I still do believe that e.g. damps (though not being utterly useless) deserve some subtle but noticeable buff. But overall nobody is really forced to stick to one race exclusively.
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Gimpb
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.09.24 15:27:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Gimpb
Specialization wise, tackling isn't going out of style and at least that's still a forte for gallente and minmatar. It might not be glamorous but someone's gotta do it.
Unfortunately, that someone isn't Gallente/Minmatar. Which kind of tackler do you want?
Interceptor/interdictor? Pick one at random, all of them do the job equally well. You might as well just use the Caldari/Amarr version, since you already have the skills.
Heavy tackler? Caldari have the best HIC, Minmatar the second-best, and Gallente the worst. I guess the Vagabond and Rapier count too. Minmatar aren't quite as screwed here, but this sure isn't the Gallente role.
What I was referring to there is blaster boats with a disruptor and web holding down targets, not so much the specialized tacklers. There's a place for dictors, hictors, recons, and ceptors but I don't see those ships aren't a replacement for a standard point. They're great for initially getting a hold on something but all it takes is a single BS leaning on any of them to shut em down. Even a hictor, as tough as they are, can be shut down in short order with neuts. It's not the same story with a plated blasterthron--getting rid of that is a little more challenging.
So I guess what I'm saying is there's a place for specialized tackling ship classes but the longer an engagement goes on the more important it is to have regular points in addition to your T2 tackling ship classes... at least imo.
Quote:
Quote:
The web changes don't seem like a bad thing though. Yes, the change is a direct hit to larger turret ships but honestly I don't think that's a bad thing.
Blaster ships require a web to hit the target. The proposed nerf means a webbed target will have 4x the transversal, dropping blaster damage to near-zero. And of course there's the increased problems getting into range in the first place...
Quote:
Smaller ship classes should be more than a poor man's alternative to a BS or nano, they should be ship classes with distinct advantages that can be exploited and currently those niches seem much to small.
They are. The problem is the smaller Gallente-style ships are just as useless as the bigger ones. There's very little reason to ever fly a Deimos or Muninn over a Zealot, Cerberus or Eagle.
I guess what I'm saying is if there's a problem with blasters where a blaster ship can't hit a ship of the same size fairly well, then that's a problem and they should adjust blasters but keep the web changes.
But a BS having trouble hitting cruisers is no problem to me.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:11:00 -
[96]
Originally by: H Lecter
The longer I think about the role differenced/advantages/disadvantages of different races, the more I come to the conclusion that diversity wins Eve.
True.
Quote:
If you have the possibility to warp right on top of the target(s), why not bring a Megathron?
Because of your previous statement: diversity wins Eve. The Mega is not diverse, and can only react to the single threat that you see before you. The moment that something else happens, you're boned... where other battleships ::cough-Geddon-Apoc-Abbadon-Raven-cough:: have the diversity to engage at range.
Quote:
At the end of the fight the winner will usually be the one who had the better information and could prepare in advance.
Also true, but part of the information that you know is realizing that the unexpected can happen.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:13:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Katy Karkinoff
Wrong. Vaga will go the fastest for the cruisers period, giving it the most survivability. On top of that, the disgusting buffer and shield resists it has makes it the most difficult to work through. And while being in deep fall off may be obnoxious, it still deals enough damage to kill its usual targets (ratters). And it cant have its weapons blown up. You sir, probably do not play eve.
My perspective comes from flying the ishtar and flying with friends who fly the sac and vaga.
I am an Ishtar pilot. I've got 4 or 5 of the things to a single Vagabond right now. I love my Ishtars.... and I've killed lots of things with them (from solo to not), so take my word when I say this:
Nano ships are dead on the test server. 100% inescapably dead. This includes the Vagabond.
-Liang
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Take Enemy
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:22:00 -
[98]
Cache cleared. |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:22:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Gimpb
I guess what I'm saying is if there's a problem with blasters where a blaster ship can't hit a ship of the same size fairly well, then that's a problem and they should adjust blasters but keep the web changes.
But a BS having trouble hitting cruisers is no problem to me.
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to understand that the issue of battleships hitting cruisers is limited to close range ships only. Here's why: The tracking formula makes no allowances for range.
The comparative tracking between a MP II with multi at it's optimal vs a blaster at it's optimal is pretty astounding (in a bad way for blasters), but the problem is worse than that. Moving 1km further in actually reduces your DPS much more significantly for the blaster ship than for the pulse ship (this is because each meter that you move further in is a much higher percentage of the total range).
Then, after you've been screwed over once by having a range issue, it gets compounded by having a sig radius vs sig resolution multiplier. Thus, we can see that laser ships actually have no problems hitting cruisers at their intended operation range, while cruisers are literally (and I do mean literally) 100% immune to blaster fire.
-Liang
--
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:24:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Myra2007
Just to nitpick a little:
5x Megathrons will die horribly to 3x Armageddons and 2x Falcons.
This is not a problem at all and has nothing to do with overspecialization
of megathrons. 5 Armageddons die to 3 Megathrons and 2 Falcons just as easily. While i largely agree with your analysis (who wouldn't) statements like this are a bit deceptive.
To nitpick a little further:
5 Geddons vs 5 Throns, 5 geddons win hands down. The problem gets vastly more exacerbated as N goes up. The Falcon that you're throwing out is something of a red herring, though it is applicable.
To nitpick even further:
5 geddons and 2 falcons vs 5 throns and 2 falcons and the geddons still win. There is simply no good reason to ever use a thron in gang.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:25:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Also torp ravens don't fit well in armor centric RR gangs, one of their biggest drawback.
Actually, they do. Just fit plates, 2 RR in the extra highs, and cruise missiles. Also, fit ECCM and sensor boosters so that you can hit out to 200+km and your gang is 100% immune to Falcons....
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:28:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Bleedingthrough
But I would think this is different in fleet battle:
Would not 20+ cheap suicide Megas warping directly in an enemy fleet from
a safe spot (to a ceptor/recon whatever) have a large impact on the battle?
ThatĘs how IĘd use them. But I have little experience with this sort of
operations.
I've seen this tactic used. It works ok if you can pull it off... the problem is actually pulling it off against anyone that has a clue. Also, it almost explicitly requires that this happen in NPC space (lowsec, NPC 0.0) because you have to have brought close range battleships to a fleet fight that's going to happen at 200km (and bringing close range battleships while thier 200 battleships pound your fleet to oblivion from 200km is silly).
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:29:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Angelic Eviaran
...
Wow, you're a terrible troll. Please come up with something semi intelligent if you're going to troll, otherwise it will be hard for CCP to see what the problem is. You're increasing the signal to noise ratio. Please stop.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:29:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs.
Actually, it is. We've been over this before, Lyria, and you tucked your tail then too. Shall we repeat?
-Liang
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BiggestT
Caldari
Space Oddysey
Pupule 'Ohana
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:32:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs.
Actually, it is. We've been over this before, Lyria, and you tucked your tail then too. Shall we repeat?
-Liang
Already repeated in the falcon thread x)
Awesome EVE history
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:32:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs.
Actually, it is. We've been over this before, Lyria, and you tucked your tail then too. Shall we repeat?
-Liang
Liang vs Lyria fight n¦149783172843743 GO!
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Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:34:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
constructive post
I am scared! Liang just agreed in 2 of 3 points with me
What I meant about the Megathron was that it is a tool for a situation. Having it available in the fleet is nice. The ship itself does not need to be overly versatile, the fleet as a whole should. Why not have an Apoc, a Baddon and a Neut Domi in fleet as well?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:40:00 -
[108]
Originally by: H Lecter
What I meant about the Megathron was that it is a tool for a situation. Having it available in the fleet is nice. The ship itself does not need to be overly versatile, the fleet as a whole should. Why not have an Apoc, a Baddon and a Neut Domi in fleet as well?
I know what you meant about the Mega - it's a tool for the situation. There are three problems with it though:
- It's "specialized" in doing something that no longer exists.
- It doesn't have the diversity to deal with the situation that is all too common (that what you see is often not what you get)
- Other ships do have the diversity to deal with those situations, and as an added bonus do 95% of everything the thron does (Even if you 100% discount travel time).
So, while the situation may appear (at first) to be one that favors the Thron... how quickly does that change, and how often? And should you spend 190M to outfit a battleship that can be used once every couple of months, or should you spend 190M to outfit a ship that can do everthing the above can and lots more?
-Liang
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Omarvelous
Caldari
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:45:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 24/09/2008 16:45:03
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Also torp ravens don't fit well in armor centric RR gangs, one of their biggest drawback.
Actually, they do. Just fit plates, 2 RR in the extra highs, and cruise missiles. Also, fit ECCM and sensor boosters so that you can hit out to 200+km and your gang is 100% immune to Falcons....
-Liang
Why why why - do people armor RR shield tanking ships.
Up until recetly armor tanking close range BS were the only choice for gankfests, so most pvp BS are armor tankers - hence RR armor gangs.
I would rather see that raven and other Caldari/shield tankers - fit RR shield transfers (it can be done - Caldari ships have the highest cpu/grid ratio to support these mods).
RR Shield is superior to RR armor - and I hope caldari pilot stake advantage of it instead of gimping their dps/tank to fit armor RR.
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.09.24 16:49:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
- It's "specialized" in doing something that no longer exists.
OK got you on that - my brain somehow tries to refuse the upcoming reality of the speed nerf.
This freaking harmony is killing me
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 17:05:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Why why why - do people armor RR shield tanking ships.
Up until recetly armor tanking close range BS were the only choice for gankfests, so most pvp BS are armor tankers - hence RR armor gangs.
I would rather see that raven and other Caldari/shield tankers - fit RR shield transfers (it can be done - Caldari ships have the highest cpu/grid ratio to support these mods).
RR Shield is superior to RR armor - and I hope caldari pilot stake advantage of it instead of gimping their dps/tank to fit armor RR.
So that I can fit a mid rack full of sensor boosters and ECCM...
-Liang
--
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Omarvelous
Caldari
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.09.24 17:13:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 24/09/2008 17:13:39
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Omarvelous
Why why why - do people armor RR shield tanking ships.
Up until recetly armor tanking close range BS were the only choice for gankfests, so most pvp BS are armor tankers - hence RR armor gangs.
I would rather see that raven and other Caldari/shield tankers - fit RR shield transfers (it can be done - Caldari ships have the highest cpu/grid ratio to support these mods).
RR Shield is superior to RR armor - and I hope caldari pilot stake advantage of it instead of gimping their dps/tank to fit armor RR.
So that I can fit a mid rack full of sensor boosters and ECCM...
-Liang
Psshhh - and give up the Raven's dps advantage? Maybe...
I'd fly a Scorp for the SB boosting ECCM purpose (yep and give up its ecm advantage - I'll leave the ECM to the T2 ships).
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 17:16:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Omarvelous
Psshhh - and give up the Raven's dps advantage? Maybe...
I'd fly a Scorp for the SB boosting ECCM purpose (yep and give up its ecm advantage - I'll leave the ECM to the T2 ships).
The scorp doesn't have a velocity bonus to its cruise missiles (and thus actually is too short ranged to hit other ecm ships). I've actually put a fair amount of thought into that fit. ;-)
-Liang
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.09.24 19:15:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
The scorp doesn't have a velocity bonus to its cruise missiles (and thus actually is too short ranged to hit other ecm ships). I've actually put a fair amount of thought into that fit. ;-)
-Liang
This puts perspective on the Widow vs. the Rattlesnake as well...
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Gimpb
Sturmgrenadier Inc
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.09.24 19:24:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Gimpb
I guess what I'm saying is if there's a problem with blasters where a blaster ship can't hit a ship of the same size fairly well, then that's a problem and they should adjust blasters but keep the web changes.
But a BS having trouble hitting cruisers is no problem to me.
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to understand that the issue of battleships hitting cruisers is limited to close range ships only. Here's why: The tracking formula makes no allowances for range.
The comparative tracking between a MP II with multi at it's optimal vs a blaster at it's optimal is pretty astounding (in a bad way for blasters), but the problem is worse than that. Moving 1km further in actually reduces your DPS much more significantly for the blaster ship than for the pulse ship (this is because each meter that you move further in is a much higher percentage of the total range).
Then, after you've been screwed over once by having a range issue, it gets compounded by having a sig radius vs sig resolution multiplier. Thus, we can see that laser ships actually have no problems hitting cruisers at their intended operation range, while cruisers are literally (and I do mean literally) 100% immune to blaster fire.
-Liang
I hear ya, and I understand the tracking formula. One of the things I've actually suggested before is perhaps they should cap the tracking / orbital velocity ratio at 1 and cap the sig radius ratio at 1. That would effectively separate the two factors and prevent low orbital velocity from compensating for a bad sig ratio, as you're describing.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.24 19:57:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs.
Actually, it is. We've been over this before, Lyria, and you tucked your tail then too. Shall we repeat?
-Liang
Ok tell me this, what ship is orbiting your blaster ship that you cant hit?
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[Video] Support Barrage |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 20:02:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Ok tell me this, what ship is orbiting your blaster ship that you cant hit?
Pick one? Blaster ships on the test server (with the web changes that we're talking about here) have trouble hitting battleships - even at the range they supposedly deal "spectacular" damage.
Seriously, I kinda can't wait for the patch to it so that I can score oh so many LOLMAILS from ******s that read your posts proclaiming how awesome blasters are. And after all this time, Lyria, and you still can't let it rest.
You mercilessly campaign for Amarr boosts and nerf everyone else. And if their ships are so bad you can't find a legitimate complaint to nerf them, then, of course, their pilots need to just stop whining because their ships are "fine". Honestly, Lyria, the best indication that a ship is in deep trouble is the fact that you haven't started a "nerf ship X" thread recently.
-Liang
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.24 20:03:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 20:05:05
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 20:03:52
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Ok tell me this, what ship is orbiting your blaster ship that you cant hit?
Pick one? Blaster ships on the test server (with the web changes that we're talking about here) have trouble hitting battleships - even at the range they supposedly deal "spectacular" damage.
Seriously, I kinda can't wait for the patch to it so that I can score oh so many LOLMAILS from ******s that read your posts proclaiming how awesome blasters are. And after all this time, Lyria, and you still can't let it rest.
You mercilessly campaign for Amarr boosts and nerf everyone else. And if their ships are so bad you can't find a legitimate complaint to nerf them, then, of course, their pilots need to just stop whining because their ships are "fine". Honestly, Lyria, the best indication that a ship is in deep trouble is the fact that you haven't started a "nerf ship X" thread recently.
-Liang
Ok what other turreted battleship can hit other battleships with the so called non-blaster-weapons-that-dont-suck while the blaster BS cant hit it back? Would be really intresting to hear.
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[Video] Support Barrage |
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
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Posted - 2008.09.24 20:05:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Ok what other battleship can hit other turreted battleships with the so called non-blaster-weapons-that-dont-suck while the blaster BS cant hit it back? Would be really intresting to hear.
The Raven distinctly comes to mind. Now, tell me what your Geddon can't hit at 15km (hint: there isn't anything the Geddon can't hit at 15km once the speed patch roles through).
-Liang
--
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.09.24 20:06:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 20:06:09
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Ok what other battleship can hit other turreted battleships with the so called non-blaster-weapons-that-dont-suck while the blaster BS cant hit it back? Would be really intresting to hear.
The Raven distinctly comes to mind. Now, tell me what your Geddon can't hit at 15km (hint: there isn't anything the Geddon can't hit at 15km once the speed patch roles through).
-Liang
Can abaddon, geddon, apoc, maelstrom and tempest hit you while you cant hit them in your blasterrange?
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[Video] Support Barrage |
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