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bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 09:28:00 - [31] Just look at Gallenet ships. 90% of them are designed as solo-capable boats: Hype - Close range blaster ganker/tackle kit/active tank Mega - Close range blaster ganker/tackle kit/buffer tank/decent sniper Domi - Close range drone ganker/tackle kit/buffer or active tank Rax - Close range blaster ganker/tackle kit/buffer Vexor- Close range or nano drone ganker/tackle kit Deimos - Close range Ganker/tackle/buffer Ishtar - (currently) nano drone ganker/tackle kit With the only real differences between the combat ships being what weapon system they use within scrambler range, and with successive EWAR nerfs rendering mid-slots uselss for anything other than shield tanking or packing tackle kit, Gallente combat boats basically ALL DO THE SAME THING. And suffer hugley in fleets as a result.
Gimpb Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.09.24 09:29:00 - [32] Edited by: Gimpb on 24/09/2008 09:31:40 Specialization wise, tackling isn't going out of style and at least that's still a forte for gallente and minmatar. It might not be glamorous but someone's gotta do it. The web changes don't seem like a bad thing though. Yes, the change is a direct hit to larger turret ships but honestly I don't think that's a bad thing. Smaller ship classes should be more than a poor man's alternative to a BS or nano, they should be ship classes with distinct advantages that can be exploited and currently those niches seem much to small. That's how things are intended to be I think but a variety of factor are preventing it: nanos, neuts, drones, 90% webs, and a tracking formula that allows low orbital velocity to compensate for sig radius. I can't disagree that it would be nice for minmatar and gallente to be more than "good tackler".
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.09.24 09:43:00 - [33] Originally by: Hugh Ruka you don't mwd to the next target after initial warp in. you warp out and wait for new target assignment ... think in wings and fleet organisation ... it does not work on BS/BC level maybe ... And then you lose X ships, where X is the number of ships in the hostile fleet with a warp disruptor fitted. Brilliant plan, kill one target, lose half your fleet. Quote: rails on galente ships ... well do you have any other option to gain some range ? of course it is not up to par with range on bonused caldari or lasers, but it's about the only option ... Yes, there's an awesome option: don't fly Gallente. Unless you're a RPer, you don't try and force the wrong tool to do the job, you train the right tool.
Lubomir Penev	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:10:00 - [34] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 3) Every ship fills every role. Every ship is expected to fit web/scram, bring high dps, do its own tanking, etc. Yeah Gallente ships are never seen in RR gangs, and are prohibited from fitting rails. Unwritten rule and you get banned if you violate it. -- I'm done whining about AFs, it looks like they are making them right \o/
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:13:00 - [35] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:34 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:01 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The proposed nerf means a webbed target will have 4x the transversal, dropping blaster damage to near-zero. Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:34 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:01 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The proposed nerf means a webbed target will have 4x the transversal, dropping blaster damage to near-zero. Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs. Which Blaster ships?!?! Rax and Deimos have 3 mids, Mega has 4 but even plated needs at least a Medium Injector or its cap lasts about the same time as an abadonns when you factor in all the MWD'ing. Hype's have an extra mid slot sure, but requiring it to be used for an additional web instead of ECCM/dual Medium Injector (essential for an ion fit) TC is just an outright nerf to an already crappy ship. Astarte, 4 mids, needs an injector. So that leaves the Domi. Which is a drone boat.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:23:00 - [37] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:24:05 Originally by: bldyannoyed Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:34 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:01 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The proposed nerf means a webbed target will have 4x the transversal, dropping blaster damage to near-zero. Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before and totally ignores the existance of the new mwd-killing warp scramblers. Wich is a crazy assumption at best. Besides, alot of blaster ships have room to fit 2xwebs. Which Blaster ships?!?! Rax and Deimos have 3 mids, Mega has 4 but even plated needs at least a Medium Injector or its cap lasts about the same time as an abadonns when you factor in all the MWD'ing. Hype's have an extra mid slot sure, but requiring it to be used for an additional web instead of ECCM/dual Medium Injector (essential for an ion fit) TC is just an outright nerf to an already crappy ship. Astarte, 4 mids, needs an injector. So that leaves the Domi. Which is a drone boat. Ive seen alot of passive setups though. Anyways, still doesnt change the fact that it wont be 4x transversal. ----------------------------------------- [Video] Support Barrage
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:31:00 - [38] The Domi can easily fit 2 webs certainly. But then the Domi is an exceptionally good ship, and anyone pretending otherwise needs help. And it says a lot about the Gallente rep bonus when passive tanking is often still preferable. I have flown these ships, and even passive they need an injector, its that simple. Gank Megas arent cap stable running theyre guns, blasters dont use much less cap than pulse lasers after you factor in the amarr cap reduction bonus, add the constant MWD'ing and even passive blaster boats (including those that wasted a rep bonus to passive fit) need an injector. Which means no dual web.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:42:00 - [39] Originally by: bldyannoyed I have flown these ships, and even passive they need an injector, its that simple. Gank Megas arent cap stable running theyre guns, blasters dont use much less cap than pulse lasers after you factor in the amarr cap reduction bonus, add the constant MWD'ing and even passive blaster boats (including those that wasted a rep bonus to passive fit) need an injector. This. Also, when I flew Megathron (switched to Raven a long time ago), I would have _loved_ to have a target MWDing at web range. People didn't do it, though - it doesn't really hurt my tracking with the MWD sig radius bloom, it runs them out of cap really fast and it hurts their own tracking. Thus, MWD turn-off is a non-issue for orbit fights - the web nerf is indeed an effective quadrupling of transversal. (You can try to reduce that with your own maneuvering, but plated BSs don't do that too well.) -- Gradient forum
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:46:00 - [40] Ur missing something their merin.. In a large fleet a gallente ship can specialise. In a large fleet you simply fit many damage mods etc, and ur sole role will be dps. However i do agree that the fact lasers>proj/blasters makes gallente and minmatar ships a tad gimped. Over all, quite a nice summary.. Awesome EVE history
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:47:00 - [41] Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 10:47:33 What I don't understand in this argument about blasterships and tracking is how do you get into a situation where you are mwding faster then your opponent (obviously because nothing other then a blastership would want to be close to you) but when reaching web range you suddenly lose the range and transversal dictation. It doesn't add up. This whole blaster ship whine is uncalled for tbfh.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:53:00 - [42] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 24/09/2008 10:54:14 Very well written although I have no clear idea what the purpose of it is. All you do is Recite the differences in ship design philosophies and their relationships and use it as a precursor to a discussion on where the Gallente and Matar will be after the speed limits. Mentioning faction warfare only serves to muddy the argument as it has nothing to do with it. On the Amarr/Matari front the war is primarily being fought in small gangs <10 with the large bonanzas being sporadic/intermittent at best (weekends and some evenings). The gangs are comprised of everything that is deemed required, be it tackle, E-War or DPS. I think both sides have grown tired of the constant blobs that grind everything within 10 jumps to a halt and are getting back to basics. Gallente are close range high damage, Matari rely on high speed with below average damage, Caldari have long (finite) range with average damage and Amarr have above average damage and range with below average damage type. All this is per design and unless you are part of a corporation following a specific dogma, nothing prevents you from flying whichever ship best suits a given engagement. Personally I hope that ECM is getting looked at in conjunction with the speed limits as the jamming ships will neigh impossible to reach/kill/drive-off without nano-hacs - unless you are a sniper fleet that is
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:57:00 - [43] I will also state this.. Gallente may not be fastest, longest hitting, best tanking etc.. But damn they are great all rounders.. Say hello to my scorpion, it cant undock and readily pvp without at least 3 ppl in a gang for me (1 to tackle, one for dps). If i have to fit tackle, mwd etc, i really gimp my ships role, so i have to specialise, its not all grass is greener stuff you know. Tho i will agree that i kinda prefer caldari's situation atm ;P (I doubt id solo anyway hehe) Awesome EVE history
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.09.24 10:58:00 - [44] Thanks Merin its a good read and foremost true. Im all gallente battleship and blaster specced, and feel exactly the same way you wrote it all down. At least i agree on this way more than on your raven-stealthbomber thread BOOST GALLENTE!!!!!! NOT BECAUSE WE SUCK BUT BECAUSE WE NEED IT!!!!!!! *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:01:00 - [45] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 10:47:33 What I don't understand in this argument about blasterships and tracking is how do you get into a situation where you are mwding faster then your opponent (obviously because nothing other then a blastership would want to be close to you) but when reaching web range you suddenly lose the range and transversal dictation. It doesn't add up. This whole blaster ship whine is uncalled for tbfh. Becasue any non-nano pvp ship fits a web (whenever it possibly can) as soon as the Blaster ship has MWD'd into web range BOTH ships get webbed and stop moving. Theres also the fact that Eve tracking is ****ed, and orbiting a stationery target still induces transversal, whereas what should happen is the same aspect of your ship remains facing your target and your guns dont need to move. Then theres the 4.5KM optimal, and as everyone knows the closer you get to a target the harder it gets to hit for the same transversal velocity (becasue angular velocity increases exponentially as you get closer to a target). So basically, you get to 5km, orbit very slowly as you're both webbed and hope you win. Nerf webs to 60% and the target keeps moving, your plated blaster ship handles like crap meaning dictating transversal/range is very difficult and all it adds up to whopping great blaster nerf.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:01:00 - [46] Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 11:03:01 Originally by: bldyannoyed Becasue any non-nano pvp ship fits a web (whenever it possibly can) as soon as the Blaster ship has MWD'd into web range BOTH ships get webbed and stop moving. Theres also the fact that Eve tracking is ****ed, and orbiting a stationery target still induces transversal, whereas what should happen is the same aspect of your ship remains facing your target and your guns dont need to move. Then theres the 4.5KM optimal, and as everyone knows the closer you get to a target the harder it gets to hit for the same transversal velocity (becasue angular velocity increases exponentially as you get closer to a target). So basically, you get to 5km, orbit very slowly as you're both webbed and hope you win. Nerf webs to 60% and the target keeps moving, your plated blaster ship handles like crap meaning dictating transversal/range is very difficult and all it adds up to whopping great blaster nerf. Wait your plated blaster ship handles like crap? Ok what are you facing and why are you plated when people above where whining that they couldnt fit 2 webs because they needed boosters for the reppers?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 11:05:26 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 24/09/2008 11:04:15 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:34 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 24/09/2008 10:14:01 Originally by: Merin Ryskin The proposed nerf means a webbed target will have 4x the transversal, dropping blaster damage to near-zero. Actually 4x transversal is not even remotely true. That assumes that all ships post nano nerf have the same travel speed as before... Which they generally do, unless you are talking about nanos. Non-nano targets will move roughly the same (virtually the same when talking about non-MWD speeds), which means you'll have 4x transversal to them. You're mixing things up intentionally. You will have issues hitting non-MWDing targets at blaster optimal and closer in a Mega with 60% web on it. Anyone using MWD in webrange now is being silly anyway, the 550% tracking boost you give the opponent is preety significant, you know? Often you get less of a speed bonus (mass/thrust) in a (typically plated) close-range ship with MWD on then 5.5x bonus. EvE tracking is messed up because it does not use distance as a factor. So, you'd require infinite tracking to hit at 0 metres Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Ok what are you facing and why are you plated when people above where whining that they couldnt fit 2 webs because they needed boosters for the reppers? Noob, people need a cap booster to run the guns on a Gallente BS. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 11:03:01 Originally by: bldyannoyed Becasue any non-nano pvp ship fits a web (whenever it possibly can) as soon as the Blaster ship has MWD'd into web range BOTH ships get webbed and stop moving. Theres also the fact that Eve tracking is ****ed, and orbiting a stationery target still induces transversal, whereas what should happen is the same aspect of your ship remains facing your target and your guns dont need to move. Then theres the 4.5KM optimal, and as everyone knows the closer you get to a target the harder it gets to hit for the same transversal velocity (becasue angular velocity increases exponentially as you get closer to a target). So basically, you get to 5km, orbit very slowly as you're both webbed and hope you win. Nerf webs to 60% and the target keeps moving, your plated blaster ship handles like crap meaning dictating transversal/range is very difficult and all it adds up to whopping great blaster nerf. Wait your plated blaster ship handles like crap? Ok what are you facing and why are you plated when people above where whining that they couldnt fit 2 webs because they needed boosters for the reppers? You're an idiot. You're plated because active tank sucks in PvP, and you have an injector because even plated the combinatin of heavy MWD use and Blaster drain (not noticeably less than lasers) WILL CAP YOU OUT VERY FAST. Simple innit.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:08:00 - [49] Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 24/09/2008 11:08:25 Originally by: Cpt Branko Noob, people need a cap booster to run the guns on a Gallente BS. In case you haven't flown a BS, guns and MWD at BS level take far far more cap then on BC / cruiser / frigate level. And what exactly are you trying to kill in your BS? Frigs? What other BS can hit smaller ships post nano patch when they go under their guns?
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:09:00 - [50] Originally by: bldyannoyed You're an idiot. You're plated because active tank sucks in PvP, and you have an injector because even plated the combinatin of heavy MWD use and Blaster drain (not noticeably less than lasers) WILL CAP YOU OUT VERY FAST. Simple innit. Thats why alot of ships have a utility high to fit nos. L2p. Time to rethink fits instead of whining. Time to l2p and fit a nos on that blaster ship.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:18:00 - [51] LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL A Nos will offset the cap drain of maybe 2 of your guns, assuming you even have sufficient grid/cpu to fit a heavy. Which Gallente ships dont. Its you who needs to "L2P". Or actually playing at all might be a start. I mean what do you actually fly? Cos it sure as shit aint Gallente.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:20:00 - [52] Originally by: bldyannoyed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL A Nos will offset the cap drain of maybe 2 of your guns, assuming you even have sufficient grid/cpu to fit a heavy. Which Gallente ships dont. Its you who needs to "L2P". Or actually playing at all might be a start. I mean what do you actually fly? Cos it sure as shit aint Gallente. Actually a plated mega with nos has more then enough cap to run guns and burst around with its mwd. YOU need to l2p and stop whining.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:25:00 - [53] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: bldyannoyed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL A Nos will offset the cap drain of maybe 2 of your guns, assuming you even have sufficient grid/cpu to fit a heavy. Which Gallente ships dont. Its you who needs to "L2P". Or actually playing at all might be a start. I mean what do you actually fly? Cos it sure as shit aint Gallente. Actually a plated mega with nos has more then enough cap to run guns and burst around with its mwd. YOU need to l2p and stop whining. Post the plated Mega fit that has enuff fitting for a Heavy Nos. No really. I'm interested.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:31:00 - [54] Originally by: bldyannoyed Post the plated Mega fit that has enuff fitting for a Heavy Nos. No really. I'm interested. [Megathron, New Setup 1] Internal Force Field Array I Adaptive Nano Plating II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Warp Disruptor II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ancillary Current Router I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Ogre II x5 There you go. Now you can stop crying.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 11:36:00 - [55] Ewwwwwww. Barely 100K EHP, 60 mill in rigs and the awesome agility boost that is 3 plates. If its all the same to you I'll keep fitting a Medium Injector in that 4th mid and fly a ship that while gimped in a gang, isn't simply gimped full stop.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:07:00 - [56] Originally by: bldyannoyed Ewwwwwww. Barely 100K EHP, 60 mill in rigs and the awesome agility boost that is 3 plates. If its all the same to you I'll keep fitting a Medium Injector in that 4th mid and fly a ship that while gimped in a gang, isn't simply gimped full stop. Im sorry you feel that way. That your battleships should be able to do it all when other battleships cant hit small orbiting targets either.
Cautet Killer Koalas Kingdom of Butan	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:17:00 - [57] Nice OP, some valid points but some incorrect assumptions (in my view). I'm not going to go into blaster boats. I have always found them to be situational at best. And also there are plenty of good Galenti setups without using blasters so I can avoid touching on them. Galenti does have some nice boats which are able to perform some very varied roles very well. Fleet sniper: Whatever anyone says the Mega is a decent fleet sniper. Comparing it to the Rokh it outdamages the rokh at most ranges. Comparing anything to the Apoc is tricky because the Apoc is probably the best fleet sniper at the moment. Nano: Ishtar is a lovely nanoship that can pack a real punch. It has drawbacks, but so do most ships. Remote Rep gangs: Domi is a great RR ship. The mega is also a very popular choice. RR rep gangs alone make every Caldari pilot need to cross train. Interdictors: Does it's job. Inty's: Ranis is decent. Carrier: Very good Dread: Very good (perhaps the best all round) I haven't touched on every shiptype, and I have missed lots of good ships, just illustrated in every size of gang there is a Galenti ship that is very good. Cross training: Galenti and Caldari are very lucky in the ease of crosstraining. NB: Nano-nerf has not yet finished testing. Be patient. NB2: RR gangs are actualy very popular.
bldyannoyed Killed In Action	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:20:00 - [58] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Originally by: bldyannoyed Ewwwwwww. Barely 100K EHP, 60 mill in rigs and the awesome agility boost that is 3 plates. If its all the same to you I'll keep fitting a Medium Injector in that 4th mid and fly a ship that while gimped in a gang, isn't simply gimped full stop. Im sorry you feel that way. That your battleships should be able to do it all when other battleships cant hit small orbiting targets either. Did you read the thread? It's not about small orbiting targets. Noone ever said it was, certainly not me. It's about how Blaster ships are becoming increasingly irrelevant in gang PvP and how solo PvP is on it's way out. It's about how the changes on sisi are going to nerf the shit out of blaster boats (60% webs will screw blasters). On sisi even webbed BS move fast enuff to reduce blaster damage at 5KM, and ships agility and mass has been screwed so badly even getting into range in the first place is a trial, let alone trying to stay there. It's about how Blasters dont even do that much more damage than far longer range weapon systems. Torpedoes and Mega Pulses make Blasters a joke. Christ, a Raven can do more dps at 30km than a Mega can at 5km, and Mega Pulse lasers lose probably only 5-10% dps compared to blasters and have 4 or 5 times the range. Generalised ships (pretty much the entire Gallente line-up) are rapidly becoming pointless. Thats the bone of contention here.
Angelic Eviaran	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:32:00 - [59] Originally by: bldyannoyed It's not about small orbiting targets. Noone ever said it was, certainly not me Ok its not about small orbiting targets then. Originally by: bldyannoyed On sisi even webbed BS move fast enuff to reduce blaster damage at 5KM, So its about webbed BS. Ok but do you know how much dps the other BS loses by orbiting your "poor" blaster BS? Originally by: bldyannoyed Christ, a Raven can do more dps at 30km than a Mega can at 5km And since when did a mega need a TP to do full damage with its turrets? Originally by: bldyannoyed Thats the bone of contention here. The bone of contention is that youre exaggerating instead of adapting.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.09.24 12:38:00 - [60] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran <sniping about single sentences deleted> Ok, I'll bite - what do you fly, and if it is Gallente, why? What, in your opinion, is a good reason to fly/train Gallente now instead of going for Amarr or Caldari? -- Gradient forum

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