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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.16 11:11:00 -
[1]
Is it me or is the CPU/Power usage on hybrids really insanely high? I can't even get 4 250mm rails on my Moa, not even close. However people can fit four+ 425mm 'scouts' very easily, and these are weapons with a dmg mod much, much higher than my Rails. I haven't gotten any proto gauss/rail but I'm kind of assuming that the cpu/power usage is still pretty freaking high.
It's bad enough that projectiles are superior to hybrids but man, I can't even FIT MORE THAN THREE ON MY SHIP AT A TIME. Either projectiles need to cost way more cpu/power or hybrids need to use less. It doesn't seem very balanced to me right now.
OK I'm done ranting. :)
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Nighthawk
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Posted - 2003.06.16 11:16:00 -
[2]
i so agree, i mean how is it that a dual 150mm cruiser railgun hurts less than a sigle 150mm frigate railgun??
--- All hail to the mighty space hamster!!! --- |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.16 12:29:00 -
[3]
Hybrids should be the most powerful weapons due to the massive cap drain and ammo. But currently projectile is the best and lasers second that. Projectiles orginal purpose was to be able to attack for a longer time..IE. not running out of cap in the battle. That cap could then be used on shield boosters ot tac shields etc. But currently projectiles got everything. So lets see for how long until CCP throws in a fix ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Psychic Sue
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Posted - 2003.06.16 13:42:00 -
[4]
basicaly there is nothing starange about the ability t ofit 4 425mm scouts and not being able to do so for 4 250mm rails.
the 250mm rails are the top NPC sold weapons they use massive power. if you'd want to compare it with projectiles you need to compare it to the 650mm's and you cant fit for of them either.
for pirate loot, I noticed that a looted weapon of one class has aprox. the same stats as the NPC weapon one class higher (dmg mod, range etc.) but only uses the power of its own class. th dual 425mm scout hhas the same base attributes like the 650mm in this case, it even uses the same icon, not the autocannon icon the normal 425mm do.
so you basically have to look for the pirate weapon of the gun 1 class lower then the 250mm rail and you will be able to fit four of them.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.16 13:59:00 -
[5]
Okay, you tell me what medium hybrid is even comparable to a 425mm Scout and I can load four of ok?
Prototype 250mm Gauss? 300 power. Coil Gun? 300 power. What else is there?
The only other choice is heavy ion blasters, or anode heavy ions, which by the way, you can't fit four of either.
So basically people using hybrids have to go with 3 guns max, which are not even as good as the scout.. ya.. ok.
Should I start training up my projectile skill now or CCP going to fix this?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.16 14:35:00 -
[6]
Psychic Sue, you are completely wrong. Dual 150mm Compressed Coils don¦t even do 1/5th of the dual 425mm Scouts. Its a clear fact that currently projectiles owns everything. Not even 4 250mm prototype rails (if you have 1200 powergrid) can compete with projectiles.
So hybrids do less damage and drains your cap compared to projectiles...ye...it¦s...balanced ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Nevron
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Posted - 2003.06.16 14:38:00 -
[7]
I have 4 heavy ion blasters on my MOA and 2 H-50 lunchers. You just need to have few energygrid upgrades (reactor control or diagnostics something).
The problem is that when using antimatter ammo I have a optimal range of less then 1km. And the few times I actually get into that range I dont have the tracking speed to get good hits.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.16 14:41:00 -
[8]
You can get 4 Ion Blasters on a Moa but it's not easy. I don't know if I like Ion Blasters.. their range is just horrible, if you can get at the right range, they are very good, but it's not easy.
Railguns are better IMO because of their range, though they tend to miss a lot because their accuracy fall off is a lot lower than their optimal range.
Bleh.. hybrids are so gimped right now.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.06.16 16:37:00 -
[9]
i fit four anode ions on a moa... you just need four reactor core boosters. the damage for each gun is around 100+ per shot if you are within range... but with the advent of warp scrambling and webifying pirates i chose to go the route of two gauss rails, one anode ion, one anode neutron. works pretty well. that way, i whittle them down with the rails, and by the time they are within range of my anodes, they are toast.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Stormer
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Posted - 2003.06.17 14:49:00 -
[10]
Why the hell noone mentions that 250mm proto rails have almost 3 times the optimum range over 425 scouts ??? Nah thats prolly not important.
If you go to 425mm optimum range you will be webified, warp jammed, possibly targetting jammed and a freaking rain of hits will pour down your back so you have to have one or two shield boosters online at all times.
Never mind what matters is that grid power requirement on hybrids is greater than projectiles and that they use cap to fire ehh?
Besides its perfectly possible to equip 5 250mm gauss protos on Maller and even 4 of those on MOA so cut the crap.
Keep up with whining!
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.17 14:55:00 -
[11]
Uhm.. rails use 300mw and a lot of CPU. You can't fit 4 250mm Prototype Gauss on a Moa. You just can't do it, even if you managed, you'd have no room for anything else.
By all means, please give me an example of a config and skills to have to accomplish this.
It's hard enough to get three mounted on a Moa, forget 4.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
BATT
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Posted - 2003.06.17 16:58:00 -
[12]
you have low slots on MOA.you can fit power reactor and power diagnostic to increase power..
use the medium slots to increase cpu..
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Denomolus
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Posted - 2003.06.17 17:53:00 -
[13]
I can comfortably fit 2 250mm rails on my vexor and still have enough power left for med and low mods. Unfortunately those are the only two weaps that I can bring online. The nice thing is, I can orbit people at 25km and pummel them for 120dmg per hit (2 hits every 5 seconds) until they give up or blow up. I would love it if they lower the power consumption, but I would still never get close enough to use the other weapons I could fit.
Use overdrives and ab's to keep out of their howitzer range and viola, you win every time. Am I the only person that has figured this out?
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Haunty Moto
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Posted - 2003.06.18 06:00:00 -
[14]
250mm railguns are nice, I use 2 of them and the optimal range is 27km with my current mods, that's better than any NPC pirate I've come across so I can just stay back and snipe them. Plus 250mm rails are more available on the market.
They're not as good for short range, so I use 1 small 150mm railgun for mid range and 2 dual 150mm prototype siege cannons for short range.
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Tnelyos
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Posted - 2003.06.24 08:37:00 -
[15]
they have to bring all the weapons into balance at some point, and since i will be flying ships that give a bonus to hybrid turret damage, i'm going to stick with them. i haven't had any unforseen dificulties while battling NPC pirates. and since player pirates are cowards, i never see any out in deep space where i operate, so they're not really a concern. :D
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.24 10:00:00 -
[16]
You see BATT, while you are loading up PD1 and CPU modules to get those hybrids on (which aren't as damaging as 425mm Scout Arts) they are loading up shield hardeners and gyrostablizers, good luck at beating them in PVP.. Can't you see it's highly imbalanced?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.06.24 10:50:00 -
[17]
denom, no you're not, most people do the same, unless they are low-range attackers, or missile throwers.
.
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Bambi
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Posted - 2003.06.24 11:20:00 -
[18]
I am just starting my combat career in earnest and have fitted a 250mm rail and a 220mm vulcan autocannon on my Vexor. I am only slowly exploring space heading into lower and lower sec rated systems. The 250mm rail can take out the easy Serpentis with 1 shot at 15km+ and the 220mm projectile is quite tasty at close range.
As I say I havent played with combat much yet....but so far I have never had my shields go below 75% on my vexor b4 they were all dead or running. I know people will say I am fighting stupidly easy pirates in a Vexor, but hey, I am alive...
I'll make it to a 0.0 system by Xmas I guess ;-P
If God made us to be just like him, then God is dumb and maybe a little ugly on the side...[F.Z] |
Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 13:01:00 -
[19]
Actually what most annoyed me (aside from it being very hard to fit a nice amount of hybrids on my moa) was that the hybrid weapon upgrade takes 50 cpu, while the other ones take 30..
The negatives keep on piling up ;)
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
Jazger
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Posted - 2003.06.24 15:37:00 -
[20]
IMO - CPU is not an issue with hybrid medium turents,
powercore is. the 300mw a 250mm rail takes is extream. ( osprey with lvl 3 in electronics and engenering has like 300+ cpu and 560 powercore. I run out of power long before runing out of cpu. w/ curent load i have almost 100 cpu free. but only 30 power corefree)
Also - range Mods For ammo and crystals have No effect. Wait, should say that, At lest On a dual 150mm ptotype, Anti matter has no effect at all.
Anti matter says it has a -60% range effect. My Dual 150mm protype, has a max range of about 22k. (op+falloff) With antimater i should have a range of about 10k or so. And yet i'm able to attack at 22k, and get good hits at about 17k.
Same with laser crystals. Cruently useing a Heavy Pulse laser, with a Ultraviliot crystal. No effecton weapon range. (But nice effect on dmg.)
also - I tried a Heavy Pulse laser and a 250mm railgun. the 250mm haveing better max range, and should have 2+ times dmg. Where the laser has only 1.5ish times dmg. but other wise, by looking at stats, the 250mm should just whipe the floor with the heavy pulse.
The 250mm was loaded with antimatter, the Heavy Pulse with that ultraV crystal.
250mm would hit for 1 to 50dmg, with an avg of about 23.
The heavy pulse laser would hit for 1 to 80dmg with an avg of around 40.
(note the dmg range listed accounts for difrenet dmg types and the effects aginst sheilds and armor. antimatter being higher aginst armor, with laser higher agist sheilds)
Now, i do have lvl 3 energy medium turent. and only lvl 1 in hybrid medium turent. But thats only a +10% difrance. Not nearly enough to accout for the 17 points or so difrance in dmg avrage. The extra 7k or so in max range is just not worth loseing out on that dmg. (as if mobs close that 7k gap i'll get mabye 3 to 5 extra shots. Of which 1 to 2 might hit.)
the Heavy pluse useing 23cap per shot. the 250mm is 25cap per shot.
the 250mm is 2.75X dmg. the Heavy pulse is 1.8X dmg.
now thier range is a bit off - the 250mm is 20k+10kfall. The Heavy plus is 6k+15kfall.
But in my useing them the heavy laser is very good at 17k and will hit 4 times out of 5 easy.
The 250mm with its 30k range, hardly ever hits at 30k-23k, starts hitting pretty good at 22k or lower.
But for a gun that says 2+ times dmg and one that says 1.5 times dmg.
The Heavy pulse wins out in dmg EVERY time, it avgs more dmg per hit, and maxes out at way more then the 250mm. uses less cap, uses less powergrid.
And doesn't need ammo.
The 250mm should just clean up, should have much greater dmg out put (given useing "best" dmg ammo, And haveing 2.5ish times dmg.), better range. And yet the heavy pulse a gun that is by its stats is a lesser weapons, beats it in every way except range.
Note- flying an osprey that adds to hybrid. and useing NO mods to effect dmg at all.
So the lesser weapons by its stats is simply far better then one, that by its stats should be very nice.
once again, i do have a +10% difrance to weapon dmg due to skills. but +10% in no way accounts for such a massive difrance in dmg. (especialy when the 250mm has almost 1 times the dmg of the laser by its stats.)
if thats the normal power of hybrids when combared to lesser weapons, Hybrids are a total joke. More powergrid, More cap per shot, and the need for ammo. And a gun that is its "lesser" beats it every time.
Thats down right sad.
Jazger
"Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 2 cents in? somebodies makeing a penny" unknowen
Edited by: Jazger on 24/06/2003 15:44:44
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.24 18:53:00 -
[21]
"Actually what most annoyed me (aside from it being very hard to fit a nice amount of hybrids on my moa) was that the hybrid weapon upgrade takes 50 cpu, while the other ones take 30..
The negatives keep on piling up ;)"
That and the fact that I haven't even seen a basic MFS BP anywhere, while it's easy to get a basic gyro BP and basic heatsink BPs used to be available.
I'm sticking with hybs myself due to the damage bonus that I get for flying a Gallente cruiser.
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Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Temujin Destovai
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Posted - 2003.06.24 23:32:00 -
[22]
Yea, generally atm most hybrid users are only still using them because they hope this gets better sometime ;o
The Chronicles of Xanadu |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.06.25 00:38:00 -
[23]
Very simple how to fix hybrids..
1. Lower the CPU cost of rails/ions across the board.
2. Lower the power grid usage.. it.. is.. INSANELY HIGH.
3. Lower the CPU usage of magnetic field stablizers... why do they use more CPU than gyros and heatsinks.. WHY?
4. Increase the damage of hybrids.. currently projectiles AND lasers outdamage hybrids by quite a bit.. and they use NO cap. Hybrids use cap AND ammo, they should do MORE damage than either, because they have BOTH weaknesses..
5. Increase the range of ions slightly.. lower than projectiles and a little lower than lasers.. but.. man right now.. you gotta be so close, it's a cruel joke to use them in combat.
6. When range factors come into play, it might be wise to look at hybrid ammo.. first of all there is no variety in hybrid ammo.. but ok maybe it should be that way. However the range penalties on the ammo is insanely high, once range factors are in anti-matter will be so horrible. Let's face it, EMP ammo is superior and only has a -35% penalty. Using antimatter ammo with an ion turret will be ridiculous..
Please CCP.. fix hybrids. =(
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.25 02:44:00 -
[24]
Of all the medium weapons, the ion blasters do the most damage.
so shush.
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Mace Windu
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Posted - 2003.06.25 03:31:00 -
[25]
With 4 Diag's, I can fit 4 Anode Ion Particle Blasters on my MOA. Even have power to spare. Keeping them firing is a different story. :)
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Damon Vile
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Posted - 2003.06.25 05:09:00 -
[26]
Damage range mods don't work for any ammo or crystal. Antimatter is the only thing worth useing right now for a hybrid. Until they fix this they shouldn't touch the weapons.
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NGRU Irbis
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Posted - 2003.06.25 05:36:00 -
[27]
Ok guys i gues i will make some of you mad, but as far as i see only Power use on Medium Hybrids little bit overboard rest of stats prety much reasonable, as for MOA users hmm well guys you knew what you getting when you choice MOA, it only good beacose of Launcher HP's and best Heavy Cruser class ship, basic shield, which not realy interesting to me, so i using Maller with all my skills and modules i got fit 2x250 Gauss, 2x Heavy Modulated Beams, 1x SB's (second set 1x250 Gauss, 3x Heavy Beams Modulated, 2xSB's), Medium Ward booster( shield booster) , 2x Cap rechargers lev1, 4 PDU lev1 and 2x Stamped Heat sinks, both Hybrids got 4.325 damamge mod, both Beams got 5.885 dam mod, Shield 1224, capacitors 1598, yes skills helps a lot modules too but i think guns prety much balanced.
Some one told Projectiles he can fit like 4-5 yes but Projectile got what range, 425 scout like 9km vs all of my guns can do 80-200 damamge at 24km, Hybrids even from 35km and ROF 3.45 sec hmm sorry no Projectile get even close to this combo, biggest range Projectile got 650 Scout like 45km total ( Optimal+fallout) but it ROF 24 seconds!!!!, none of pirates i been fighting get to me closer then 10-12km before they die, i easy engage 4X40k Crusers (40K bountys) and kill them all before i get to 25% of my capacitors.
My opinion you need to build your skills and dont try to get one or 5 big guns on char that have no skills and be biggest bad a$$ in universe(without training skills for it:) ), learn skills, make different combos before you find good one and stick to it.
MAO with trained char can fit 3x250 Gauss and still have space for Missles, each of those guns can do damn nice damamge at even 34km, + MOA have nice bonus to hybrids +5% per level, if any one interesting in skills i do have and i think good fighter should have email me i will gladly answer all your ??
Answer for some one who saing Dual 150mm medium, doing less damage then 150mm small well look at damamge modifier on those guns, Dual 150 it like botom level of medium hybrids as for 150mm small it top of the line gun for Frigates in hybrid class, here your answer.
It my opinion some will like some will hate but it what i think.:)
Good luck to all.
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Dietermann
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Posted - 2003.06.25 13:55:00 -
[28]
If they're going to make an entire cruiser line's mod be due to hybrid weapons then the weapons should be worth using or change the mods on the cruiser line. Regardless of the skills one chooses to improve, having 1/3 of the turrets ingame be relatively imbalanced compared to the other 2/3 is wrong and needs to be addressed. It stands to reason the minmatar would be outraged if projectile weapons were in this position instead.
www.pukindogs.info |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.25 16:51:00 -
[29]
Hybrids have the highest requirements, they should do the highest damage. It's that simple. No, requirements shouldn't be lowered. Hybrids have been and should be the most damaging weapons in-game, and the cost of ammo, cap and powergrids.
It WAS balanced at the end of beta. Since the extra damage came at a cost of capacitor and powergrid. But for some strange reason CCP decided to buff projectiles...
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
NGRU Irbis
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Posted - 2003.06.25 20:08:00 -
[30]
Valeria but projectile realy stuck at background for me beacose of range, none of Projectile can be even with 250 Gauss by range/ROF/damamge stats, like i say before i dont even get in range of Pirates guns before they die even those tough once 40-50K bountys.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.06.25 20:59:00 -
[31]
I have 4x 250 rails (most are prototype on the cruisers in our corp), H50 launcher, and assult launcher for turret weapons on my MoA for battle group layout. Also have 2-3 hydrocarbon after burners and various sheild or electronic warfare/enhancing gear on my MoA.
You needs good skill levels to mount 4x 250 rails on a MoA with out having to sacrifice the rest of the build potential. You also blow away most of your low slots to engineering enhancements. But 4x 250s suit our battle groups purpose perfectly in team play. Don't want to run 4x 250's during solo play myself. Want my low slots free'd up for additional gear.
I am laughing all the way during battle. Not looking forward to ammo range modifiers starting to work with the next patch though :( . Don't know if hybrids will be worth it at that point.
Edited by: The Wretch on 25/06/2003 21:04:34
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.26 01:32:00 -
[32]
Next patch a 250mm rail will have 12km range unless you enjoy using Iron Charge M.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
NGRU Irbis
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Posted - 2003.06.26 03:51:00 -
[33]
Hehe i do have now optimal range on 250 Gauss with 2x Optical trackers 34256m +12km fallout even if effect will be same -60% i will get like 20+km range on my hybrids and Radio crystals which i using now on Heavy beams have 60%+ range it mean i will hit pirates with it from about 40+km and i doing 80-180 damamge on those Beams. so i still be ok with both guns, like i say skills do all the different in this game , specialy in combat.
O btw Projectile ammo have range sideffect too like -35% so it will drop even lower then it is now too. :).
Beside all others skills only gunnery i got lev5 + all gunnery skills on market (exept Large turrets) all at level 3, Traectory Analys at lev4 , Surgical Strike at lev4, Sharp shooter at lev4.
Edited by: NGRU Irbis on 26/06/2003 04:17:12
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Bentguru
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Posted - 2003.06.26 20:44:00 -
[34]
hybrid requirements are high yes, i don't think that should change. I can currently fit 2 250MM prototype Guass Railguns and 2 Anode Ions on my Maller. And i only have 1 reactor control, it's ez. However due to the high reqs i think Hybrids should have higher damage, in fact it's ironic when the destcription says "nothing can match the destructive power of hybrid weapons" when in fact they are the weakest of the three.
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Lysithea
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Posted - 2003.06.27 06:46:00 -
[35]
Point is simple: hybrids (esp. rails, coils, gauss, etc.) are horrible right now when compared to other cruiser weaponry. They use too much power, too much cap, and their damage is pathetic.
If anyone disagrees, they are likely using something else and want to preserve their advantage. They don't want to see weapons balanced and lose the value of the dual 425's they bought.
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StarWolfer
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Posted - 2003.06.27 12:05:00 -
[36]
Seeing all these posts above, and completely agreeing with it, I just hope a Dev / GM or Polaris volunteer is reading this topic.
Almost everybody agrees that Hybrid's aren't that strong atm and if the next patch is really going to add another negative effect (Range reduction, due to the fact that Antimatter is going to have a fall-off of 60%), Hybrids are going to be practically useless?
--> You then need to get within like 10K to 15K to hit?
There goes my little Gallente race advantage, as you sort of have to move over to other weapons :(
Edited by: StarWolfer on 27/06/2003 12:05:51
Edited by: StarWolfer on 27/06/2003 12:07:15
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Drewbicus
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Posted - 2003.06.27 18:29:00 -
[37]
Which forum, if any, contains information on what changes are likely to appear in upcoming patches?
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Svenja Anneka
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Posted - 2003.06.27 19:04:00 -
[38]
Most of the clued players are hoarding the Heavy Modulated Energy Beams and 250mm Prototype Gauss Railguns, while selling all the Dual 450mm Scout Artilleries to the noobs en masse.
'Nuff said. =]
Svenja Anneka
Brutor Huntress |
Riffler
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Posted - 2003.06.28 10:17:00 -
[39]
Caldari Space Navy Design Commitee Meeting
Chair:"Right, we have a choice between projectile weapons, which use ammo but little or no energy, and lasers, which use lots of energy but no ammo. Seems we have everything we need."
Geek:"Why don't we invent a new kind of weapon, somewhere in between, a hybrid say, which pumps energy into the ammo, then fires it. It should work really well."
Chair:"OK, try that idea out, see how it goes."
Next Meeting
Chair:"How did the hybrid experiments go?"
Geek:"They do less damage, their ammo decays quickly at range, and they need far more powergrid than comparable weapons. The biggest railguns have good range, but blasters have no range at all. Basically, they suck."
Chair:"Great, we'll put them on all our ships."
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