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The old Minmitar BS debate "PVP perspective"

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DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:04:00 - [1] Edited by: DubanFP on 01/10/2008 23:07:08 Most arguements against Minmitar BSes center around the low AC damage, but that's not the problem. It's about how the ship, specifically the Tempest works with the turrets. I'll go ship by ship through the BSes and tell you what seems to be the hole in the minmitar BS lineup. Typhoon: It's workable but is still just a tier 1 BS. Definately has basic disadvantage against tier 2 and 3 BSes. It can stay as it is. Maelstrom: It's a shield tanker which seriously gimps it in the PVP perspective. It would be ok to have a mission sihp if the Tempest could just pick up the slack. Tempest: This is where Minmitar BS fall apart. I'll compare it to how turret DPS works compared to a Megathron. Note: both ships get the 5% damage bonus per level so in the end so I will ignore it for comparative purposes. Damage per Turret: "Following DPS are found with formula "Amo * Damage mod / RoF" base 800mm AC = 23 DPS base Neutron Blaster = 30 DPS Now lets give that AC the extra 25% RoF bonus the tempest gives. base 800mm ac = 30 DPS Nuetron Blaster = 30 DPS Now consider the fact that Megathron has a 7 turrets "of equal damage" to the Tempest's 6 "Tempest even requires BS V just to equal the thron here". The thron also gets a tracking bonus "Tempest wastes 2nd bonus just to reach Par with DPS" and the Thron also has a 7th lowslot for better tanking over the tempest. Now tell me how that is balanced? One could argue the lack of cap usage but that's not going to make up for a lost lowslot when you consider most will fit 2x or 3x damage mods. This leaves the tempest 3 tanking slots and the thron 4 tanking slots. 33% more tank makes a big difference don't you think? At least on the similer smaller ships like the rupture "1600mm plate rupture is yum" the low Autocannon PG leaves enough left for oversized plates with moderate decent damage. Unfortunately there is no 3200mm RT Plate for the Tempest. The tempest's setup winds up behind the Thron in both Damage, tank, with a wasted 2nd bonus that requires BS V just to reach par. Give the Tempest a 7th slot and it might still wind up behind in tank/bonus but at least then one could argue a cap recharger in the 5th midslot and lower PG usage could be worth considering. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:25:00 - [2] Actually the Maelstrom is quite a good AC boat. Shield tanking makes it a bad solo boat, but with just mwd/pt it can tank and spew out tons of DPS. The problem with the Tempest is that it that the Typhoon/Maelstrom can do whatever the tempest can do. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Taedrin Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Vaal Erit Actually the Maelstrom is quite a good AC boat. Shield tanking makes it a bad solo boat, but with just mwd/pt it can tank and spew out tons of DPS. If you have proper support, you could even get away with dropping the mwd/pt and give the thing one of the heaviest BS tanks in the game. Maelstrom also has the benefit of being able to fit gyrostabs without gimping it's tank what-so-ever. Quote: The problem with the Tempest is that it that the Typhoon/Maelstrom can do whatever the tempest can do. Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Taedrin EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. The Typhoon is a awesome ship, and generally the best all around Minmatar BS. The Maelstorm works for small gangs, but not solo, meaning it's got a fairly cramped niche. Tempest is, well, meh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:49:00 - [5] Heaven forfend you put missile launchers in those last two high slots that were put there to hold missile launchers. I think that ships with a split weapons system design were designed with the assumption that the second weapon system would be used. If you plan not to, then why not compare the 6-AC Tempest to ... I dunno, a 5-blaster Megathron? Might be a fairer comparison? -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:51:00 - [6] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/10/2008 23:53:48 Originally by: Becq Starforged Heaven forfend you put missile launchers in those last two high slots that were put there to hold missile launchers. I think that ships with a split weapons system design were designed with the assumption that the second weapon system would be used. If you plan not to, then why not compare the 6-AC Tempest to ... I dunno, a 5-blaster Megathron? Might be a fairer comparison? The Typhoon does it way better? Btw, the Mega can fit a torp launcher too if you really want to. Point being? Fact: if you're going to fit a Tempest with 6 turrets + 2 torps, you should be flying a Typhoon which does it way better. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:52:00 - [7] compair iit properly with ship of a smiliar class and then i will dicuss carebears are flying pinyatas my killboard stats [img]http://www.killboard.net/sigs/Armoured C/ht_16/sig.gif[/img
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:57:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 00:01:21 Originally by: Armoured C compair iit properly with ship of a smiliar class and then i will dicuss You mean another tier 2 battleship with bonuses that suggest ganking like the Megathron? _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr EMPERIAL ARMOR	Posted - 2008.10.02 00:57:00 - [9] hah hah hah The Minmatar Race, and their "ships" are inferior!!! He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:01:00 - [10] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 01:03:20 Originally by: TYCONDEROGA hah hah hah The Minmatar Race, and their "ships" are inferior!!! <---Plays as Minmitar. Hurricane is my favorite ship, I love the rupture, stabber is great, no complaints about the frigates, and they have undisputedly some of the best T2 cruisers in EVE. I love minmitar as a whole. It's just the battleships are the problem, and most of that revolves around the Tempest as my post suggested had you actually cared to read it. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Taedrin Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses. EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. Well if you take out 2x turrets from the Typhoon/Mael and throw in utility mods you will still be better than the tempest. And yes, I have t2 heavy drones, proj, siege and yes the typhoon is amazing. I say that the Tempest has a case of the Apoc syndrome. The old Apoc was dumb because all 3 amarr BS did plate gank, just the abaddon and geddon did the plate gank so much better than the apoc that the apoc was a useless ship. The Tempest does have that sweet 5th mid, but one ewar mod doesn't really cut it ever since the multispec ECM nerf. No one ever wants my opinion, but I'd give the tempest moar: -Locking range -Rof bonus replaced with optimal/tracking - +1 turret with grid to fit another 1400mm II -armor hit points than shield hitpoints -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Elmo Zumwalt FDF Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Taedrin Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses. EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. Well if you take out 2x turrets from the Typhoon/Mael and throw in utility mods you will still be better than the tempest. And yes, I have t2 heavy drones, proj, siege and yes the typhoon is amazing. I say that the Tempest has a case of the Apoc syndrome. The old Apoc was dumb because all 3 amarr BS did plate gank, just the abaddon and geddon did the plate gank so much better than the apoc that the apoc was a useless ship. The Tempest does have that sweet 5th mid, but one ewar mod doesn't really cut it ever since the multispec ECM nerf. No one ever wants my opinion, but I'd give the tempest moar: -Locking range -Rof bonus replaced with optimal/tracking - +1 turret with grid to fit another 1400mm II -armor hit points than shield hitpoints If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is.
Dracon Zethera Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:18:00 - [13] The suggestions being made in this post really astound me. Lets just make all tier 2 BS in the game fight exactly the same way with exactly the same tank strength, DPS, and slot layout. Maybe then the game will be balanced...
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:25:00 - [14] Occasionally I'll get bored and attempt to build a solid Tempest loadout. Every time I do, I always end up comparing it with the Maelstrom and/or Typhoon... and then dropping the Tempest again. It simply cannot compete, in any category, with the other Minnie BS's. So why use it at all? Forget buffs. The Tempest needs a role.
Darwin's Market	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:41:00 - [15] I was once like you nubs and thought the tempest was crap and only the phoon was worth anything at all in minmatar battleship pvp. boy was i wrong. Tempest rocks. not it's not supposed to be as strong as the other tier 2 bs, but it makes up in extra mids the geddon doesn't have and damage type selection. it's the only minmatar bs I close range empire pvp with.
Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:48:00 - [16] @ op. Train gallente bs 2? Thanks for the Maulus BPO nerf! :D
Faife Minmatar Noctiscion The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:52:00 - [17] the tempest is necessary in order to act as a stepping stone towards going vertical other than that... dunno. if you buffer tank you can fill the left over highs with neuts, use neut/ecm drones, and hopefully that will shut that mega down... and like the guy above said, if you're fitting the pest for DPS, then 6 ACs, 2 sieges. it's a split weapon ship, similar to phoon.
Space Fascist	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:59:00 - [18] But capless weapons.
Monarch Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.02 03:23:00 - [19] The Tempes is showing it's age. There was a time when a Tempest with howitzers was something to be feared and the ship of choice for fleet engagements. Now however it is quite the opposite, it's alpha strike is just better than other ships but over time it gets left behind by every other fleet ship. It's small clip (10) is the smallest one out of all battleships and in laggy engagements when reload times can take anywhere from 10-20 minutes it is a severe handicap. I have Mini bs 5 and all artillery and auto cannon specs @ 5 and I started to cross train for other ships.
PerrinAybarra Bad Temper's	Posted - 2008.10.02 03:44:00 - [20] somewhere along the way the longest range weapon platform in game has become the shortest ranged weapon but only older players will remember that in the description as it has been removed. For all minnie lovers of eve give us back our 200 optimal range without rigs. I'm beginning to see the tempest returning to the 2004 era where flying it was a 1 trick pony of any type of effectiveness.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.02 05:58:00 - [21] Tempest is still king of long range instant alpha strikes though, you gotta give it that.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:17:00 - [22] typhoon is good becouse it uses heavy dornes and misiles. NOT that crap large projectiles.
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:19:00 - [23] Autocannons shouldn't equal blasters, unless the blasters are using longrange (null) ammo. This is not part of my sig. ...Or is it?
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.02 09:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Tempest is still king of long range instant alpha strikes though, you gotta give it that. It doesnt mater anymore really. HP buff made Tempest's alpha strike only matter against paper thin cruisers, and even that is not a given --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Another Forum'Alt Autocannons shouldn't equal blasters, unless the blasters are using longrange (null) ammo. Then perhaps autocannons with ship bonuses should equal blasters? Fyi the typhoon does more damage with 4x neutron blasters and 4x torps than it does with 800mm autocannons.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Elmo Zumwalt If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is. Raven pilots don't have a argument, given they posses the single most damaging short range weapon in the game, doing more raw damage then neutron blasters (while having much longer range). So we can safely ignore them in the case.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:39:00 - [27] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 02/10/2008 10:39:13 Giving all Projetiles twice the current falloff might work very well ... think about it. (plus, Scorch is still broken) How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Elmo Zumwalt If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is. Raven pilots don't have a argument, given they posses the single most damaging short range weapon in the game, doing more raw damage then neutron blasters (while having much longer range). So we can safely ignore them in the case. This. Pre-torp-boost, this would have been a legitimate complaint. But, to allow the Typhoon to use torps effectively (no room for more than 4x launchers), instead of giving the Raven additional launcher hardpoints, they just massively boosted torps to give the equivalent of 8x launchers with only 6x slots used.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:23:00 - [29] There is a real simple argument to be made here. When given the choice of tank, gank, isk, and flexibility there is no equal to the phoon. Other races at least have options in BS's. If a minny is flying something other then a phoon they really like that ship, the phoon is so much better at everything. Triple plate, damage mod, LAR, 2 EANM's. Then go to town with whatever weapons fit your needs: Torps? Cruise? Autos? Artys? Remote Repping? Neuts? Smartbombs? Sentries? Heavies? Med? Light? EWAR drones? The damn thing does it all and much better then the other two. I've even seen a shield tanked phoon work.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 02/10/2008 13:29:38 Originally by: DubanFP Typhoon: It's workable but is still just a tier 1 BS. Definitely should have the basic disadvantage against tier 2 and 3 BSes. It can stay as it is. Maelstrom: It's a shield tanker which seriously gimps it in the PVP perspective. It would be ok to have a mission ship if the Tempest could just pick up the slack. Tempest: This is where Minmitar BS fall apart. I'll compare it to how turret DPS works compared to a Megathron. Note: both ships get the 5% damage bonus per level so in the end so I will ignore it for comparative purposes. I'm not sure what game you're playing but in eve typhoons are one of THE best and nastiest battleships around and tempests are VERY common in every aspect of the game. Everything from soloing, low sec rr fits to fleet snipers. Sorry but you really need to l2p or just stop whine and train another race if you cant see the use of your races ships. This minmatar whine has gone far enough. Not alot of tempests flying around.............. When we put out the call for BS's in the minny militia, we get phoons. LOTS of them.

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