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The old Minmitar BS debate "PVP perspective"

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DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:04:00 - [1] Edited by: DubanFP on 01/10/2008 23:07:08 Most arguements against Minmitar BSes center around the low AC damage, but that's not the problem. It's about how the ship, specifically the Tempest works with the turrets. I'll go ship by ship through the BSes and tell you what seems to be the hole in the minmitar BS lineup. Typhoon: It's workable but is still just a tier 1 BS. Definately has basic disadvantage against tier 2 and 3 BSes. It can stay as it is. Maelstrom: It's a shield tanker which seriously gimps it in the PVP perspective. It would be ok to have a mission sihp if the Tempest could just pick up the slack. Tempest: This is where Minmitar BS fall apart. I'll compare it to how turret DPS works compared to a Megathron. Note: both ships get the 5% damage bonus per level so in the end so I will ignore it for comparative purposes. Damage per Turret: "Following DPS are found with formula "Amo * Damage mod / RoF" base 800mm AC = 23 DPS base Neutron Blaster = 30 DPS Now lets give that AC the extra 25% RoF bonus the tempest gives. base 800mm ac = 30 DPS Nuetron Blaster = 30 DPS Now consider the fact that Megathron has a 7 turrets "of equal damage" to the Tempest's 6 "Tempest even requires BS V just to equal the thron here". The thron also gets a tracking bonus "Tempest wastes 2nd bonus just to reach Par with DPS" and the Thron also has a 7th lowslot for better tanking over the tempest. Now tell me how that is balanced? One could argue the lack of cap usage but that's not going to make up for a lost lowslot when you consider most will fit 2x or 3x damage mods. This leaves the tempest 3 tanking slots and the thron 4 tanking slots. 33% more tank makes a big difference don't you think? At least on the similer smaller ships like the rupture "1600mm plate rupture is yum" the low Autocannon PG leaves enough left for oversized plates with moderate decent damage. Unfortunately there is no 3200mm RT Plate for the Tempest. The tempest's setup winds up behind the Thron in both Damage, tank, with a wasted 2nd bonus that requires BS V just to reach par. Give the Tempest a 7th slot and it might still wind up behind in tank/bonus but at least then one could argue a cap recharger in the 5th midslot and lower PG usage could be worth considering. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:25:00 - [2] Actually the Maelstrom is quite a good AC boat. Shield tanking makes it a bad solo boat, but with just mwd/pt it can tank and spew out tons of DPS. The problem with the Tempest is that it that the Typhoon/Maelstrom can do whatever the tempest can do. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Taedrin Gallente Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Vaal Erit Actually the Maelstrom is quite a good AC boat. Shield tanking makes it a bad solo boat, but with just mwd/pt it can tank and spew out tons of DPS. If you have proper support, you could even get away with dropping the mwd/pt and give the thing one of the heaviest BS tanks in the game. Maelstrom also has the benefit of being able to fit gyrostabs without gimping it's tank what-so-ever. Quote: The problem with the Tempest is that it that the Typhoon/Maelstrom can do whatever the tempest can do. Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Taedrin EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. The Typhoon is a awesome ship, and generally the best all around Minmatar BS. The Maelstorm works for small gangs, but not solo, meaning it's got a fairly cramped niche. Tempest is, well, meh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:49:00 - [5] Heaven forfend you put missile launchers in those last two high slots that were put there to hold missile launchers. I think that ships with a split weapons system design were designed with the assumption that the second weapon system would be used. If you plan not to, then why not compare the 6-AC Tempest to ... I dunno, a 5-blaster Megathron? Might be a fairer comparison? -- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:51:00 - [6] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/10/2008 23:53:48 Originally by: Becq Starforged Heaven forfend you put missile launchers in those last two high slots that were put there to hold missile launchers. I think that ships with a split weapons system design were designed with the assumption that the second weapon system would be used. If you plan not to, then why not compare the 6-AC Tempest to ... I dunno, a 5-blaster Megathron? Might be a fairer comparison? The Typhoon does it way better? Btw, the Mega can fit a torp launcher too if you really want to. Point being? Fact: if you're going to fit a Tempest with 6 turrets + 2 torps, you should be flying a Typhoon which does it way better. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:52:00 - [7] compair iit properly with ship of a smiliar class and then i will dicuss carebears are flying pinyatas my killboard stats [img]http://www.killboard.net/sigs/Armoured C/ht_16/sig.gif[/img
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.01 23:57:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 00:01:21 Originally by: Armoured C compair iit properly with ship of a smiliar class and then i will dicuss You mean another tier 2 battleship with bonuses that suggest ganking like the Megathron? _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr EMPERIAL ARMOR	Posted - 2008.10.02 00:57:00 - [9] hah hah hah The Minmatar Race, and their "ships" are inferior!!! He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:01:00 - [10] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 01:03:20 Originally by: TYCONDEROGA hah hah hah The Minmatar Race, and their "ships" are inferior!!! <---Plays as Minmitar. Hurricane is my favorite ship, I love the rupture, stabber is great, no complaints about the frigates, and they have undisputedly some of the best T2 cruisers in EVE. I love minmitar as a whole. It's just the battleships are the problem, and most of that revolves around the Tempest as my post suggested had you actually cared to read it. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.02 01:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Taedrin Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses. EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. Well if you take out 2x turrets from the Typhoon/Mael and throw in utility mods you will still be better than the tempest. And yes, I have t2 heavy drones, proj, siege and yes the typhoon is amazing. I say that the Tempest has a case of the Apoc syndrome. The old Apoc was dumb because all 3 amarr BS did plate gank, just the abaddon and geddon did the plate gank so much better than the apoc that the apoc was a useless ship. The Tempest does have that sweet 5th mid, but one ewar mod doesn't really cut it ever since the multispec ECM nerf. No one ever wants my opinion, but I'd give the tempest moar: -Locking range -Rof bonus replaced with optimal/tracking - +1 turret with grid to fit another 1400mm II -armor hit points than shield hitpoints -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Elmo Zumwalt FDF Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Taedrin Except fit a utility high slot without losing the benefit of your bonuses. EDIT: I should also mention that with a highly skilled character and player, the typhoon is an incredibly versatile ship. The problem is that in order to get any usefulness out of it, you have to have projectiles, missiles, drones, cap AND armor skills trained. Well if you take out 2x turrets from the Typhoon/Mael and throw in utility mods you will still be better than the tempest. And yes, I have t2 heavy drones, proj, siege and yes the typhoon is amazing. I say that the Tempest has a case of the Apoc syndrome. The old Apoc was dumb because all 3 amarr BS did plate gank, just the abaddon and geddon did the plate gank so much better than the apoc that the apoc was a useless ship. The Tempest does have that sweet 5th mid, but one ewar mod doesn't really cut it ever since the multispec ECM nerf. No one ever wants my opinion, but I'd give the tempest moar: -Locking range -Rof bonus replaced with optimal/tracking - +1 turret with grid to fit another 1400mm II -armor hit points than shield hitpoints If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is.
Dracon Zethera Gallente Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:18:00 - [13] The suggestions being made in this post really astound me. Lets just make all tier 2 BS in the game fight exactly the same way with exactly the same tank strength, DPS, and slot layout. Maybe then the game will be balanced...
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:25:00 - [14] Occasionally I'll get bored and attempt to build a solid Tempest loadout. Every time I do, I always end up comparing it with the Maelstrom and/or Typhoon... and then dropping the Tempest again. It simply cannot compete, in any category, with the other Minnie BS's. So why use it at all? Forget buffs. The Tempest needs a role.
Darwin's Market	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:41:00 - [15] I was once like you nubs and thought the tempest was crap and only the phoon was worth anything at all in minmatar battleship pvp. boy was i wrong. Tempest rocks. not it's not supposed to be as strong as the other tier 2 bs, but it makes up in extra mids the geddon doesn't have and damage type selection. it's the only minmatar bs I close range empire pvp with.
Monkey Saturday Unknown Soldiers	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:48:00 - [16] @ op. Train gallente bs 2? Thanks for the Maulus BPO nerf! :D
Faife Minmatar Noctiscion The Black Isle	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:52:00 - [17] the tempest is necessary in order to act as a stepping stone towards going vertical other than that... dunno. if you buffer tank you can fill the left over highs with neuts, use neut/ecm drones, and hopefully that will shut that mega down... and like the guy above said, if you're fitting the pest for DPS, then 6 ACs, 2 sieges. it's a split weapon ship, similar to phoon.
Space Fascist	Posted - 2008.10.02 02:59:00 - [18] But capless weapons.
Monarch Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.02 03:23:00 - [19] The Tempes is showing it's age. There was a time when a Tempest with howitzers was something to be feared and the ship of choice for fleet engagements. Now however it is quite the opposite, it's alpha strike is just better than other ships but over time it gets left behind by every other fleet ship. It's small clip (10) is the smallest one out of all battleships and in laggy engagements when reload times can take anywhere from 10-20 minutes it is a severe handicap. I have Mini bs 5 and all artillery and auto cannon specs @ 5 and I started to cross train for other ships.
PerrinAybarra Bad Temper's	Posted - 2008.10.02 03:44:00 - [20] somewhere along the way the longest range weapon platform in game has become the shortest ranged weapon but only older players will remember that in the description as it has been removed. For all minnie lovers of eve give us back our 200 optimal range without rigs. I'm beginning to see the tempest returning to the 2004 era where flying it was a 1 trick pony of any type of effectiveness.
Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.10.02 05:58:00 - [21] Tempest is still king of long range instant alpha strikes though, you gotta give it that.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:17:00 - [22] typhoon is good becouse it uses heavy dornes and misiles. NOT that crap large projectiles.
Another Forum'Alt	Posted - 2008.10.02 08:19:00 - [23] Autocannons shouldn't equal blasters, unless the blasters are using longrange (null) ammo. This is not part of my sig. ...Or is it?
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation	Posted - 2008.10.02 09:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Tempest is still king of long range instant alpha strikes though, you gotta give it that. It doesnt mater anymore really. HP buff made Tempest's alpha strike only matter against paper thin cruisers, and even that is not a given --- Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again!
Strill	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Another Forum'Alt Autocannons shouldn't equal blasters, unless the blasters are using longrange (null) ammo. Then perhaps autocannons with ship bonuses should equal blasters? Fyi the typhoon does more damage with 4x neutron blasters and 4x torps than it does with 800mm autocannons.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Elmo Zumwalt If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is. Raven pilots don't have a argument, given they posses the single most damaging short range weapon in the game, doing more raw damage then neutron blasters (while having much longer range). So we can safely ignore them in the case.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.10.02 10:39:00 - [27] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 02/10/2008 10:39:13 Giving all Projetiles twice the current falloff might work very well ... think about it. (plus, Scorch is still broken) How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Elmo Zumwalt If you give the tempest a 7th hardpoint, then raven pilots are going to complain that their ship doesn't get a 7th hardpoint either. Anyways, I think the debate misses the point entirely. Instead of looking at the tempest by itself, we should be looking to buff artillery instead. Auto-pest is pretty cool as it is. Raven pilots don't have a argument, given they posses the single most damaging short range weapon in the game, doing more raw damage then neutron blasters (while having much longer range). So we can safely ignore them in the case. This. Pre-torp-boost, this would have been a legitimate complaint. But, to allow the Typhoon to use torps effectively (no room for more than 4x launchers), instead of giving the Raven additional launcher hardpoints, they just massively boosted torps to give the equivalent of 8x launchers with only 6x slots used.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:23:00 - [29] There is a real simple argument to be made here. When given the choice of tank, gank, isk, and flexibility there is no equal to the phoon. Other races at least have options in BS's. If a minny is flying something other then a phoon they really like that ship, the phoon is so much better at everything. Triple plate, damage mod, LAR, 2 EANM's. Then go to town with whatever weapons fit your needs: Torps? Cruise? Autos? Artys? Remote Repping? Neuts? Smartbombs? Sentries? Heavies? Med? Light? EWAR drones? The damn thing does it all and much better then the other two. I've even seen a shield tanked phoon work.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Angelic Eviaran Edited by: Angelic Eviaran on 02/10/2008 13:29:38 Originally by: DubanFP Typhoon: It's workable but is still just a tier 1 BS. Definitely should have the basic disadvantage against tier 2 and 3 BSes. It can stay as it is. Maelstrom: It's a shield tanker which seriously gimps it in the PVP perspective. It would be ok to have a mission ship if the Tempest could just pick up the slack. Tempest: This is where Minmitar BS fall apart. I'll compare it to how turret DPS works compared to a Megathron. Note: both ships get the 5% damage bonus per level so in the end so I will ignore it for comparative purposes. I'm not sure what game you're playing but in eve typhoons are one of THE best and nastiest battleships around and tempests are VERY common in every aspect of the game. Everything from soloing, low sec rr fits to fleet snipers. Sorry but you really need to l2p or just stop whine and train another race if you cant see the use of your races ships. This minmatar whine has gone far enough. Not alot of tempests flying around.............. When we put out the call for BS's in the minny militia, we get phoons. LOTS of them.
Makavelia	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:41:00 - [31] My 2c Phoon - great for fleet/small gangs Tempest - imo just a bigger version of the hurricane.. so fit it like one and fight in fall off.. good cheap solo ship for most situations Mstorm - Rating/exploration/missions/sniping tank and spank If i got it wrong please say ^^ but it looks to me we have a bs for most situations
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.02 13:52:00 - [32] Edited by: The Djego on 02/10/2008 13:54:26 Why people still dooing this? Any time people compare the DPS of her BS to a Neutron fitted Mega. And under Neuts, capless weapons are extremly usefull, wouln¦t lost my last Navy Mega with capless guns... I would not say the Pest is fine as it is(because it is not realy) Mealstorm and Phoon are. Mealstorm fitted right nearly reach 1.1k DPS at 3km and got fare more overall range, far better Tank for example. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.02 14:07:00 - [33] Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 02/10/2008 13:54:26 Why people still dooing this? Any time people compare the DPS of her BS to a Neutron fitted Mega. Yeah, that is fallacious. A better comparison would be the Raven which is also capless and has more range to boot I'd agree that Maelstorm and Typhoon are fine (even though I intensely dislike the active tank bonus on the Maelstorm - the only bad things about the Maelstorm are some deficencies of projectile turrets rather then anything else) - it's the Tempest which is the horribly lacking ship. Originally by: Angelic Eviaran This minmatar whine has gone far enough. It is just starting. Although, agreed on the Typhoon being a good ship - it is. Switching its shield and armour HP (the only minor gripe with it left) around would make it a perfectly fine ship design, and largely immune from projectile weapon sucking issues. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Arrath Jair	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:48:00 - [34] Edited by: Arrath Jair on 02/10/2008 15:49:31 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 02/10/2008 13:54:26 Why people still dooing this? Any time people compare the DPS of her BS to a Neutron fitted Mega. And under Neuts, capless weapons are extremly usefull, wouln¦t lost my last Navy Mega with capless guns... I would not say the Pest is fine as it is(because it is not realy) Mealstorm and Phoon are. Mealstorm fitted right nearly reach 1.1k DPS at 3km and got fare more overall range, far better Tank for example. Guess how much capless weapons do when your tank shuts down, as the tank is never capless. Of course, that doesn't hold true for passive fits. But then again, minmatar ships always have worse EHP and your capless weapon won't save you in 90% of the cases. Worse EHP and worse dps = you lose even though you're using capless weapons. I'm a 52mil minnie pilot and I only fly them. I do know what I'm talking about ;)
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.02 15:52:00 - [35] Originally by: Arrath Jair Edited by: Arrath Jair on 02/10/2008 15:49:31 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 02/10/2008 13:54:26 Why people still dooing this? Any time people compare the DPS of her BS to a Neutron fitted Mega. And under Neuts, capless weapons are extremly usefull, wouln¦t lost my last Navy Mega with capless guns... I would not say the Pest is fine as it is(because it is not realy) Mealstorm and Phoon are. Mealstorm fitted right nearly reach 1.1k DPS at 3km and got fare more overall range, far better Tank for example. Guess how much capless weapons do when your tank shuts down, as the tank is never capless. Of course, that doesn't hold true for passive fits. But then again, minmatar ships always have worse EHP and your capless weapon won't save you in 90% of the cases. Worse EHP and worse dps = you lose even though you're using capless weapons. I'm a 52mil minnie pilot and I only fly them. I do know what I'm talking about ;) THIS. By the time you cap out a mega, you will be dead.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:34:00 - [36] I dunno what you guys are gassing on about, really. It's been mathematically proven (as much as anything can be in a video game where you don't have the actual source) so many times that Minnie BS's are just flat inferior at pretty much everything. It wasn't fixed in this patch, and in the proposed speed patch they're further nerfing them. In the end, I know I'll win most of my fights based on intelligence, tactics, and raw skillpoints... and that I'll lose some fights that I could have won if I'd bothered to train a battleship race worth a damn. Them's the breaks, eh? I've seen posts here, gamedev, features/ideas, and everywhere else. Remember kids: CCP DOES NOT CARE, SAVE YOUR BREATH. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. -Liang --
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:37:00 - [37] Originally by: Liang Nuren I dunno what you guys are gassing on about, really. It's been mathematically proven (as much as anything can be in a video game where you don't have the actual source) so many times that Minnie BS's are just flat inferior at pretty much everything. It wasn't fixed in this patch, and in the proposed speed patch they're further nerfing them. In the end, I know I'll win most of my fights based on intelligence, tactics, and raw skillpoints... and that I'll lose some fights that I could have won if I'd bothered to train a battleship race worth a damn. Them's the breaks, eh? I've seen posts here, gamedev, features/ideas, and everywhere else. Remember kids: CCP DOES NOT CARE, SAVE YOUR BREATH. Sorry, but that's the way I feel about it. -Liang BUT THEIR GUNS ARE CAPLESS!1!1! Ahem..But i came ot an astounding revelation just now, CCP ACTUALLY care! I know! Its crazy but true. Check out the cit. torp thread in features/ideas, after enough rallying from the players about cit. torp issues, NOZH agreed that they need a buff for torp hp \o/ More news later as this story unfolds x) Awesome EVE history
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.02 16:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Arrath Jair Edited by: Arrath Jair on 02/10/2008 15:49:31 Originally by: The Djego Edited by: The Djego on 02/10/2008 13:54:26 Why people still dooing this? Any time people compare the DPS of her BS to a Neutron fitted Mega. And under Neuts, capless weapons are extremly usefull, wouln¦t lost my last Navy Mega with capless guns... I would not say the Pest is fine as it is(because it is not realy) Mealstorm and Phoon are. Mealstorm fitted right nearly reach 1.1k DPS at 3km and got fare more overall range, far better Tank for example. Guess how much capless weapons do when your tank shuts down, as the tank is never capless. Of course, that doesn't hold true for passive fits. But then again, minmatar ships always have worse EHP and your capless weapon won't save you in 90% of the cases. Worse EHP and worse dps = you lose even though you're using capless weapons. I'm a 52mil minnie pilot and I only fly them. I do know what I'm talking about ;) Not if you die a slow death, delivered from a Neut Domi. Well im a 43 M Gallente speced Pilote(I can fly Mini ships to but Gallente suits me better as it comes to playstyle) and I lost most of the ships simply by caping out and loosing the DPS before I run out of HP. Gess how mutch active Tank is mounted on a Neutron Blasterthron? A single Large Rep with nearly now resistances at all to patch up the HP buffer(with a Med Cap booster) that runs out of cap quick even without Neuting. 2 Plates, a ANP and a DCU in general in my case, so if you loose the DPS, the hole ship is mostly worth nothing at all. My Navy Thron was indeed activetanked with 2 Reps, that didn¦t realy make it if you aint have the cap to fire and a Mega allways turns off reps before the guns, quite simple, cause repping didn¦t win fights... Fights against Pests and Phoos are not easy, because if you loose the DPS, you loose the fight, no matter how many EHP on your fitting. And neuting down a Mega is not realy hard, actualy it is quite easy. Think people with 52 M SP(but not a single entry in BC) should know this... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:00:00 - [39] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 17:02:50 Originally by: The Djego Not if you die a slow death, delivered from a Neut Domi. Well im a 43 M Gallente speced Pilote(I can fly Mini ships to but Gallente suits me better as it comes to playstyle) and I lost most of the ships simply by caping out and loosing the DPS before I run out of HP. Gess how mutch active Tank is mounted on a Neutron Blasterthron? A single Large Rep(talking about AWU 5 fittings here) with nearly now resistances at all to patch up the HP buffer(with a Med Cap booster) that runs out of cap quick even without Neuting. 2 Plates, a ANP and a DCU in general in my case, so if you loose the DPS, the hole ship is mostly worth nothing at all. My Navy Thron was indeed activetanked with 2 Reps, that didn¦t realy make it if you aint have the cap to fire and a Mega allways turns off reps before the guns, quite simple, cause repping didn¦t win fights... Fights against Pests and Phoos are not easy, because if you loose the DPS, you loose the fight, no matter how many EHP on your fitting. And neuting down a Mega is not realy hard, actualy it is quite easy. Think people with 52 M SP(but not a single entry in BC) should know this... I would like to point out that the "tempest is ok" guy is the one that doesn't actually use Minmitar. What you're describing is a single situation in which the tempest has an advantage that it normally would not. You can't say in "this situation" it has an advantage and expect it to be fair. What we're describing is a mathmatical comparison of the Tempest to another ship of a similer class and function and it's quite clear it comes up very short. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Tuncan Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:05:00 - [40] I don't understand why should we be equal with Amarr,Gallente or Caldari's? Amarr pew pew'd us and enslaved us, this is why laserz own autocannons Gallente saved our arses, we give em credit Caldari is the most technologic guys. So it's fine that our tech and weapons sucks. Courage not always sufficient =).
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:09:00 - [41] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: The Djego Not if you die a slow death, delivered from a Neut Domi. Well im a 43 M Gallente speced Pilote(I can fly Mini ships to but Gallente suits me better as it comes to playstyle) and I lost most of the ships simply by caping out and loosing the DPS before I run out of HP. Gess how mutch active Tank is mounted on a Neutron Blasterthron? A single Large Rep(talking about AWU 5 fittings here) with nearly now resistances at all to patch up the HP buffer(with a Med Cap booster) that runs out of cap quick even without Neuting. 2 Plates, a ANP and a DCU in general in my case, so if you loose the DPS, the hole ship is mostly worth nothing at all. My Navy Thron was indeed activetanked with 2 Reps, that didn¦t realy make it if you aint have the cap to fire and a Mega allways turns off reps before the guns, quite simple, cause repping didn¦t win fights... Fights against Pests and Phoos are not easy, because if you loose the DPS, you loose the fight, no matter how many EHP on your fitting. And neuting down a Mega is not realy hard, actualy it is quite easy. Think people with 52 M SP(but not a single entry in BC) should know this... I would like to point out that the "tempest is ok" guy is the one that doesn't use one. What you're describing is a single situation in which the tempest has any advantage that it otherwise would not. What we're describing is the mathmatical comparison of the Tempest to another ship of a similer class and function. Care to read my post? Quote: I would not say the Pest is fine as it is(because it is not realy) Mealstorm and Phoon are. Also I only stated that capless Weapons are not useless and that you do(what many people do) allways compare the DPS to a Neutron Mega at optimal Range. A ship that is the heavyest Damagedealer around but have lots of Drawbacks for it(what most of the people allways don¦t mention because they don¦t fly Neutron Megathrons etc)... ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:10:00 - [42] Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen Originally by: Rhatar Khurin Tempest is still king of long range instant alpha strikes though, you gotta give it that. It doesnt mater anymore really. HP buff made Tempest's alpha strike only matter against paper thin cruisers, and even that is not a given Plus, this only holds true at certain portions of "long range". At extreme range (i.e. lock limit) the Tachy Apoc can lay down soul crushing alphas. Sure you'd lose tank doing it (almost all of it really) but if hard hitting alpha is what you want the Apoc with Tachys just does it so much better. At true "long range" the higher alpha of the Pest is offset by the simple fact that the resulting ship is flimsier and will quickly lose a sustained fight at normal "long range" (i.e. about 160 - 180km)
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 17:21:00 - [43] Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 17:23:51 Originally by: The Djego Also I only stated that capless Weapons are not useless and that you do(what many people do) allways compare the DPS to a Neutron Mega at optimal Range. A ship that is the heavyest Damagedealer around but have lots of Drawbacks for it(what most of the people allways don¦t mention because they don¦t fly Neutron Megathrons etc)... I never said no-cap was useless, but simply that it's not going to come close to saving you from an otherwise inferior ship in most situations. If you're fighting a gank setup ship "easily 1000+ DPS" and his cap runs out before one of you is dead then he's obviously doing something wrong. From the opposite side, a tanking perspective, the Tempest winds up short a tanking slot and again it winds up inferior. Now top it off the fact that it requires BS V just to match par on a per turret basis "which it also has less of" while using up your second bonus "thron gets a tracking bonus" at the same time. No cap is a bonus, yes, but there is no way in hell it's going to make up for ALL of those shortcomings. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.10.02 18:03:00 - [44] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 02/10/2008 17:23:51 Originally by: The Djego Also I only stated that capless Weapons are not useless and that you do(what many people do) allways compare the DPS to a Neutron Mega at optimal Range. A ship that is the heavyest Damagedealer around but have lots of Drawbacks for it(what most of the people allways don¦t mention because they don¦t fly Neutron Megathrons etc)... I never said no-cap was useless, but simply that it's not going to come close to saving you from an otherwise inferior ship in most situations. If you're fighting a gank setup ship "easily 1000+ DPS" and his cap runs out before one of you is dead then he's obviously doing something wrong. From the opposite side, a tanking perspective, the Tempest winds up short a tanking slot and again it winds up inferior. Now top it off the fact that it requires BS V just to match par on a per turret basis "which it also has less of" while using up your second bonus "thron gets a tracking bonus" at the same time. No cap is a bonus, yes, but there is no way in hell it's going to make up for ALL of those shortcomings. Even thinked about that you have to MWD in range? Getting jammed by ECM Drones while dooing next to no damage at all but loosing cap to stay in range? Don¦t start fight after undocking with 100% Cap? Loosing your DPS while waiting for the Cap booster to reload? Simply things that happen in day to day pvp but not in EFT. Im simply sick of people that say omg it has more DPS, fix my ship. I actualy don¦t care if you understand this or not, but there is a reason why people start skilling Amarr/Caldari the last 12 Month and im simply **ed if people compare her DPS whise with a Neutron Mega without even knowing what they talking about. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Arazel Chainfire The first genesis Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.10.02 20:30:00 - [45] Ok... stop complaining that it will "take the place of the neutron mega" You are forgetting several more things about it. Lets compare: Per gun, projectiles and autocannons do equal damage (counting lvl 5 bonuses on both ships) But Pest - 6 turrets 75m3 drone bay 5 mid - 6 low Mega - 7 turrets 125m3 drone bay 4 mid - 7 low This means that even if you did give the pest 1 more turret, it could equal the damage of the mega's turrets. However, the mega would still have the advantage of 50m3 more drone bay, and being able to fit either 1 more damage mod or 1 more tanking module than the pest, while the pest gets a spare mid. When I fly the mega, i usually have 2 magstabs and 5 tanking slots - even with 7 turrets, there would be no way that the pest could equal my damage AND my hp. The only downside that the mega has over the pest is that its guns take cap. -Arazel Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Mutual Incomprehension is one of the Four Horsemen of most internet arguments, I guess, along with Unfettered Hostility, Overwhelming Vagueness, and Lack of Evidence.
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2008.10.02 22:38:00 - [46] do not forget to take into account that there is more then straight dmg when considering balance, if it was only about dmg all races would use the same turrets. Range has always been one of the biggest things autocannons have going for em. on top of that tracking etc come into play, I dont know off hand how these stats compare with a mega but trying to do a comparison of the turrets is folly without taking these into account.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.10.02 23:43:00 - [47] You're forgetting the utility of the other two high slots. Fit torps or some neuts. And you also have the utility of a 5th mid for various things. If the speed nerf ends up ruining webs, the Tempest will be the only other BS that both armor tanks and is able to fit dual webs w/o sacrificing the holy trinity of mwd/scram/injector along with two webs. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Cat Molina Minmatar Psychotic Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.02 23:48:00 - [48] Raven = heavy-hitting missile boat Scorpian = ECM Rokh = Sniper Dominix = Drone Boat Megathron = In-Your-Face-Blasters (ouch) Maelstrom = "Close-Range Sniper" (when compared to Rokh) Typhoon = In-Your-Face-Projectiles/Missile/Drones (ouch) Tempest = ???????? A shame really... it's a pretty ship.
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.03 00:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Shardrael do not forget to take into account that there is more then straight dmg when considering balance, if it was only about dmg all races would use the same turrets. Range has always been one of the biggest things autocannons have going for em. on top of that tracking etc come into play, I dont know off hand how these stats compare with a mega but trying to do a comparison of the turrets is folly without taking these into account. Just notice, that you will be forced to fight in web range. 1 on 1, It's hard to stop the mega pilot going into web range. Why? Because he will simply overheat the MWD and the web for one or two cycles. In bigger gangs, if you get called primary, you will be webbed for sure. You just can't keep your distance from the Megathron pilot for ever. You are not going to be faster than MWD overheating mega, if you don't use overheat yourself. And since you can't turn your own overheating in the middle of your MWD cycle...the fight will be soon in web range, where you will be outdamaged or outtanked, or both. If you can keep your distance at 20km: At 20km range, Mega pilot can have around 500-600 DPS with Neutrons + Null + ogres (95k EHP), while Tempest will have around 600-700 DPS with 800mm AC's + Barrage + hammerheads (80k EHP). Raven and Apocalypse will not have any problems hitting you at 20km range. But you are not going to be able to stay in that 20km range anyway... About the tracking of the Tempest, compared to the tracking of the Megathron: 800mm AC's on Tempest + Barrage = 0.0405 Neutron Blaster Cannons on Megathron + Null = 0.05582 800mm AC's on Tempest + EMP = 0.054 Neutron Blaster Cannons on Megathron + AM = 0.07442 Don't forget, that Megathron have 7.5% tracking bonus per level, and Tempest does not have this one. ---
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.03 00:09:00 - [50] Edited by: DubanFP on 03/10/2008 00:13:21 Originally by: murder one You're forgetting the utility of the other two high slots. Fit torps or some neuts. And you also have the utility of a 5th mid for various things. If the speed nerf ends up ruining webs, the Tempest will be the only other BS that both armor tanks and is able to fit dual webs w/o sacrificing the holy trinity of mwd/scram/injector along with two webs. Actually i've been trying in vain to actually have enough CPU/PG leftover on the Tempest to make use of both the mid-slots. I'm starting to think it's impossible. Especially if you want to actually use that "impossible to fit" mid-slot cap for a dual rep. Also you say range. ACs with barrage may work well on smaller vessels but on the larger ones the range with void L actually outclasses Large AC's falloff. 20km Optimal is a lot better then 30km Falloff if you actually plan on warp scrambling your target "goodbye DPS to falloff". And to top it all off what the guy above me said about tracking and the Megathron's tracking bonus makes it track a lot better too! _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.03 00:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Volt Taar If you can keep your distance at 20km: At 20km range, Mega pilot can have around 500-600 DPS with Neutrons + Null + ogres (95k EHP), while Tempest will have around 600-700 DPS with 800mm AC's + Barrage + hammerheads (80k EHP). Umm, no. Megathron with Neutrons and Null will have 11km optimal + 16km falloff. Tempest with 800mm's and Barrage will have 6km optimal and 30km falloff. I put these in the tracking guide and the point at which autocannons' hit chance is equal to that of blasters (and is better from that point onward) is approx. 17,5 km. At 24km, the far edge of T2 warp disruptor range, autocannons have roughly 18% better chance to hit. Now let's look at the damages: With 2 damage mods on both, before accounting for drones, the Megathron will have 663 DPS and the Tempest 583. Using Ogre II's on both the Megathron gets another 317 and the Tempest 190. So before accounting for range or tracking, Megathron has an edge of 26.8% more damage. Now if we take the best case scenario for the Tempest with it getting 18% better chance to hit (assuming transversal is too low to give the megathron any advantage due to tracking) and reduce that amount from the Megathron's weapon damage, it will do (663 * 0.82 + 317) / (583 + 190) = 1.1134 = 11.3% more damage. Now, let's consider that in an average fight, chances are there is some transversal. With a realistic estimation of 180m/s transversal input into the tracking guide, the result is that the 18% advantage is reduced closer to 10% and at all ranges smaller than the 17,5km the Megathron will have roughly 6% better chance to hit, which obviously converts straight to that much extra damage on average. So unfortunately the 'great falloff' isn't, afterall, so great. ----------------------
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.03 01:20:00 - [52] Originally by: Jin Entres Lots of letters So unfortunately the 'great falloff' isn't, afterall, so great. Man, that was my point. Even at 20km range, Tempest is outclassed by any other tier 2 BS. And as I was saying, you can't keep that range for a long time anyway. ---
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 04:24:00 - [53] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 01/10/2008 23:20:04 Most arguments against Minmitar BSes center around the low AC damage, but that's not the problem. Stopped reading here. Projectiles suck, falloff sucks. It's not the ships, it's the weapons. Take a good look at all the minmatar cruisers and BCs that are good. Wait, it's 2. The rupture and the hurricane. Why? They can actually maneuver and fit oversized plates with ACs. Falloff penalties are horrendous, and there's so many more complaints I have with ACs that I won't even start. Fake edit: I read the rest of your post. You're not far off, you just went in the wrong direction. You take several factors: one less lowslot, low fittings, crap sensor str, crap base HPs, 9% less DPS ammo etc and you come up with a blasterboat with less armor and less range. Falloff penalties are so huge that fighting in falloff isn't really an option at all, and trying to maintain some sort of range advantage or range dictation isn't even remotely possible.
goodby4u Valor Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.03 06:52:00 - [54] Its not the dps, let me explain what happened to the tempest. Back in the day any tempest pilot worth his salt flew with a multispec jammer and an active tank, this gave him the ability to tankngank aswell as have that ewar every once and a while.... In that era mid slots>low slots because 1 jammer was able to shut down a ship very well. However when they were nerfed that made the tempest's 5th med rather useless passed a sensor booster or target painter which hardly gave it the edge over the megathron... But soon after the jammer nerf ccp buffed all the armor amounts, this set in motion a chain of events that led to 90% of the decent pilots buffer tanking because there was no point in active tanking anymore with the amount of armor you can stack on your ship and damage mods to make you ganksauce. After this for most bses it became lowslots>midslots and the tempest was at a huge disadvantage because it trades a low for a mid.... Not to mention the nos nerf nerfing any minmatar pilot from even thinking of putting nos in the other highs(they could pack neuts but meh). Personally, I dont know how to fix this, I just know that atm the tempest serves little to no purpose in eve besides a yar ship from hell.
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.03 06:52:00 - [55] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 01/10/2008 23:20:04 Most arguments against Minmitar BSes center around the low AC damage, but that's not the problem. Stopped reading here. Projectiles suck, falloff sucks. It's not the ships, it's the weapons. Take a good look at all the minmatar cruisers and BCs that are good. Wait, it's 2. The rupture and the hurricane. Why? They can actually maneuver and fit oversized plates with ACs. Falloff penalties are horrendous, and there's so many more complaints I have with ACs that I won't even start. Fake edit: I read the rest of your post. You're not far off, you just went in the wrong direction. You take several factors: one less lowslot, low fittings, crap sensor str, crap base HPs, 9% less DPS ammo etc and you come up with a blasterboat with less armor and less range. Falloff penalties are so huge that fighting in falloff isn't really an option at all, and trying to maintain some sort of range advantage or range dictation isn't even remotely possible. Just as a odd question but what ever happened to the double dmg bonus givin to projectiles specifically at optimal+falloff? I once remember them being best at that falloff limit. This has also always been my experience aswell and my main which is currentelly deactivated for long term training, flies basically nothing but minni. Now as a comment on the Minmatar philosophy, which applies to the BS lineup aswell. Its about variety, or utility. The Gallente philosophy is to get in your face and blast you to death. What I wonder is why everyone seems to think the pest sucks so bad when its just the ruptures big brother. Everyone compares the DPS of the mega and the pest, well if you fly the pest as a big rupture, it does exactelly what the rupture does to gank thoraxs, to the mega. The dps isnt where your strengths are in the tempest, as with the rupture. The stregths of the tempest are its ability to fit a heavy nos and nuet in the utility highs, its 5th mid allowing it to fit either a tracking computer, any other multitude of parts. the tank is just better than the ruptures, allowing you to fit 2 plates instead of one like the ruppy. Rigs are also an option on the BS's. ECM drones are the tempests biggest friend IMO, you are stupid if you put anything else in your dronebay with a tempest. All in all I'm saying if you fly it like a ruppy youll be a whole lot happier, and a whole lot more succesfull. To compare the hurricane in this situation is rediculious, the BC lineup of ships arent a step before a BS, but an entire seperate path of ships, extending on the medium weapons class.
murder one Gallente Invincible Reason	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:15:00 - [56] Originally by: Volt Taar Originally by: Jin Entres Lots of letters So unfortunately the 'great falloff' isn't, afterall, so great. Man, that was my point. Even at 20km range, Tempest is outclassed by any other tier 2 BS. And as I was saying, you can't keep that range for a long time anyway. Double webs keep blaster ships where you want them, you can dictate your range at will. Putting a few neutralizer in the highs will fix the Amarr ships up, but as for torp Ravens, well... I hope they're not fitting a web. I like flying the Tempest now and then just for some variety. I'm always impressed with it, not having to be so worried about my cap or my range, but then again I fly it with max skills so I guess it's like any other BS- if you have all your support skills at level 4 and aren't running any implants you're gonna die. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Zionysus	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:29:00 - [57] Why dont you stuff a tracking disruptor in your handy 5th mid and see how well that megathron hits you. also keep in mind that AC's are ridiculously easy to fit when compared to other weapon systems. The things Id like to see with the tempest are either- remove the ROF bonus, replace with another damage bonus-increase grid a little. result-MOAR ALPHA. or, take a low, move it to a mid, give it more base shield, and then you can buffer tank on shields, stuff lows with damage mods. also this would require a speed/agility boost which is needed anyways, since the minmatar bs's should be the most agile and the fastest (relatively).
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.03 09:34:00 - [58] Originally by: murder one Double webs keep blaster ships where you want them, you can dictate your range at will. How does one web them at 20-24km? And even if one could, one would be dealing less damage and have less tank. ----------------------
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:00:00 - [59] Edited by: DubanFP on 03/10/2008 15:00:33 Originally by: Zionysus Why dont you stuff a tracking disruptor in your handy 5th mid With what CPU that wont' gimp your setup that much more. Not to mention you'll probebly bearly make up for Megathron's tracking bonus while having 1 less lowslot. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:01:00 - [60] Originally by: murder one Double webs keep blaster ships where you want them, you can dictate your range at will. Putting a few neutralizer in the highs will fix the Amarr ships up, but as for torp Ravens, well... I hope they're not fitting a web. I like flying the Tempest now and then just for some variety. I'm always impressed with it, not having to be so worried about my cap or my range, but then again I fly it with max skills so I guess it's like any other BS- if you have all your support skills at level 4 and aren't running any implants you're gonna die. 1) Dual webing works only in web range. 10km with t2 web, 13km with overheated web. Compare other tier 2 BS's DPS and tracking at that range. Then compare the tank on those tier 2 BS's with the Tempest tank. 2 heavy neuts on Tempest will not shut down a megathron with heavy cap booster (800's) and buffer tank in time to save you. Neuts will only help with active tanks, and ships that don't have cap boosters. (We are talking about PvP setups, right?) 2) I too have minmatar BS 5, 9mil gunnery, good tank skills (both armor and shield), good drones skills, most of the support skills on 5... But still, I don't see a reason to use Tempest in fleets, when I can have better results with Maelstrom. (Better range, better alpha, better tank, easy to fit) And I dont see a reason to use Tempest in close range, where Typhoon can have 2x the Tempest tank and the same damage. The only thing Tempest does better than a Typhoon in close range is dual-webbing. And if you think that this is enough, then go to point 1) and read again please . Tempest simply needs a role. Then it needs some changes that will make it better than Maelstrom or Typhoon in that role. Like higher alpha & better range for fleet sniping role. Or better range/tank/damage for close range role. The thing is, that in the time when Tempest was a great ship, it was used with 2xNOS + Active tank + ECM most of the times. Now NOSses don't work. Active tank is not so good for fleet fights or big gangs, because we have such nice buffer tanks now. (Hello to trimark rigs). ECM on unbonused ships is not good at all. Those are a lot of small changes, that were pushing the Tempest down in the list of usefull ships. ---
Zionysus	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:39:00 - [61] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 03/10/2008 15:00:33 Originally by: Zionysus Why dont you stuff a tracking disruptor in your handy 5th mid With what CPU that wont' gimp your setup that much more. Not to mention you'll probebly bearly make up for Megathron's tracking bonus while having 1 less lowslot. try getting a 3% cpu/3% grid implant. 8x 800mm II 2x arby siege 1x t2 mwd 1x scram 1x web 1x medium cap booster 1x balmer TD 2x 1600 RT plate 2x eanmII 1x dcII 1x LAR/gyro 3x trimarks not as ganky as some other bs out there, but the tempest has its advantages. is it perfect? no, but giving it 7 turrets would screw up balance pretty bad, as would making it another 8/4/7 bs.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:10:00 - [62] Originally by: murder one You're forgetting the utility of the other two high slots. Fit torps or some neuts. And you also have the utility of a 5th mid for various things. If the speed nerf ends up ruining webs, the Tempest will be the only other BS that both armor tanks and is able to fit dual webs w/o sacrificing the holy trinity of mwd/scram/injector along with two webs. As usual when carrying the gallente flame, you forget little aspects. Like the fact that Gallente has 2 battleships also with armor tanking and 5 mids.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:11:00 - [63] Originally by: Zionysus not as ganky as some other bs out there, but the tempest has its advantages. is it perfect? no, but giving it 7 turrets would screw up balance pretty bad, as would making it another 8/4/7 bs. That's like saying, it'd be another working BS - 8/4/7 > 8/5/6 for nearly all purposes.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.03 22:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Muad'' Dib on 03/10/2008 22:02:22 One of the problems i personally see with AC's is that their range sucks ass. Minnie ships live by dealing damage from where let's say gallente ships can barely hit, but because of the natural big range of large weapon systems, and the fact that the range of the webb stays the same on all ship classes, from frigates to battleships, webbing for battleships evolves from 'dictating range' to 'keeping him there so he doesn't escape'. By webbing your opponent in a Tempest you do not kite outside that opponents weapon range anymore. Even at 9km, an Electron Blaster Mega will hit with his guns - 500 tops dps, about 50-60% of times and with his drones 100% - and t2 heavy's have quite a lot of HP, which is enough to overcome his very weak tank. I don't even have to mention the Neutrons that hit 70% of times with close range ammo at 10km, even more so now that faction ammo was introduced that gives 15% bonus to damage. Sure Void L gives 20% bonus to damage, but at the price of 50% falloff, increased cap consumption, and crappier tracking. Back before faction ammo, you could argue that a gank-mega, would need void to do any damage and a tempest could kite that gank-mega at 9km, now you can not ! The tracking disruptor boost - ability to reduce falloff as well, sure helped the Tempest, but in the end, it's still just too little, too late. Either the Tempest needs more damage, gun-wise, possibly from 7th turret or perhaps with a revision of AC's; or, the other large weapon systems need revision, together with webbing stats. Untill then, good Tempest pilots will still triumph over other crappier pilots in ships more inherently 'good', but if that same pilot meats another good pilot in a good ship, he will die horribly, because he is in a sub-standard ship.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:16:00 - [65] Originally by: Lance Mercer Just as a odd question but what ever happened to the double dmg bonus givin to projectiles specifically at optimal+falloff? I once remember them being best at that falloff limit. This has also always been my experience aswell and my main which is currentelly deactivated for long term training, flies basically nothing but minni. Okay, such a thing has never existed. Your average forum dweller will tell you that minmatar should be fighting at optimal+falloff, but that doesn't detract from the fact that any weapon delivers 38.5% of it's paper DPS, tracking INDEPENDENT, at optimal + falloff. Quote: Now as a comment on the Minmatar philosophy, which applies to the BS lineup aswell. Its about variety, or utility. The Gallente philosophy is to get in your face and blast you to death. Quite right. It was the death of utility mods that really put the nail in the coffin. Nos, TD, ECM, Damps... you name it, it's nerfed. Nano nerf just makes them awful. Quote: What I wonder is why everyone seems to think the pest sucks so bad when its just the ruptures big brother. It has to do with D180mm ACs and the 1600 plate. Without these two things in combination, the rupture isn't a good boat. Think of an electron rax with an 800 plate. Quote: Everyone compares the DPS of the mega and the pest, well if you fly the pest as a big rupture, it does exactelly what the rupture does to gank thoraxs, to the mega. Uh, no. Rupture can fit a full rack of medium projectiles with a 1600 (not to mention 3/5 slot split). Thorax can't. Both battleships can fit large weapons and as many plates as they please. The PG on the tempest isn't exactly abundant either. Quote: The dps isnt where your strengths are in the tempest, as with the rupture. The stregths of the tempest are its ability to fit a heavy nos and nuet in the utility highs, its 5th mid allowing it to fit either a tracking computer, any other multitude of parts. No, because utility is worthless now. Heavy neuts are great and all, but when you're doing 300 DPS at 20km, everyone else is laughing at you while your armor evaporates. Quote: the tank is just better than the ruptures, allowing you to fit 2 plates instead of one like the ruppy. Rigs are also an option on the BS's. ECM drones are the tempests biggest friend IMO, you are stupid if you put anything else in your dronebay with a tempest. All in all I'm saying if you fly it like a ruppy youll be a whole lot happier, and a whole lot more succesfull. No. The tempest doesn't work like a rupture. You're simply contradicting yourself. Rupture is a plate and rack of guns, fullstop. Tempest when flown like that gets slaughtered. But use utility you say! Sure, i'll put in a multispec ECM in my 5th medium slot. Quote: To compare the hurricane in this situation is rediculious, the BC lineup of ships arent a step before a BS, but an entire seperate path of ships, extending on the medium weapons class. Actually, it's quite valid. It shows that the strengths of those two minmatar ships lie in OVERSIZED PLATE AND MEDIUM GUNS. You don't seem to grasp this.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.03 23:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Space Fascist But capless weapons. This guy knows what he's talking about.
Megan Maynard Minmatar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.10.04 00:21:00 - [67] Astro hit the head on the nail. Minnies have gone downhill since they nerfed utility slot items. I remember when a single nos rifter was pretty much standard fit.
Skallebank Minmatar Mentis Fidelis Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.10.04 11:44:00 - [68] umm tempest has 2 spare slots one for neut one for smartie or 2 nuets ect. plus 900 dps firing explosive damage id say poor megathron tbfh. But in the interest of arguments sake I'm going to undock my tempest and my alts mega and kill myself and see who wins. ill keep u posted. FREEDOM OF SPEECH WHATS THAT ?
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.04 12:28:00 - [69] Originally by: Skallebank umm tempest has 2 spare slots one for neut one for smartie or 2 nuets ect. plus 900 dps firing explosive damage id say poor megathron tbfh. But in the interest of arguments sake I'm going to undock my tempest and my alts mega and kill myself and see who wins. ill keep u posted. Poor megathron? Ok let's take similar fits on both: Tempest 6 800mm II w/ RF EMP L 2 Heavy Unstable Neut 1 100MN MWD II 1 Warp Disruptor II 1 Medium Electrochemical Injector 1 Stasis Webifier II 1 'Balmer' TD 1 DCU II 3 Gyro II 2 1600mm II 3 Trimark I 3 Ogre II Megathron 5% CPU implant 7 Neutron Blaster II w/ CN AM L 1 Heavy Unstable Neut 1 100MN MWD I 1 Faint Warp Prohibitor 1 'Langour' Web 1 Medium Electrochemical Injector 1 Internal DCU 3 Magstab II 1 EANM II 2 1600mm II 3 Trimark I 5 Ogre II And let's compare the performance: DPS: Tempest 944, Megathron 1252 Result: Megathron wins by 32.6% EHP: Tempest 85,139, Megathron 103,057 Result: Megathron wins by 21% Neuting: Tempest 2, Megathron 1 Result: Tempest wins by 100% (1) Utility: Tempest 1 mid (TD), Megathron +37,5% tracking bonus Result: Somewhat equal? Other: Tempest -60 sig, +12% velocity, capless guns, big falloff, easier to fit, Megathron Null, ~6% more cap, more cargo for boosters Result: Tempest wins So in the end, it's a tradeoff of a significant portion of your damage and tank for some minor benefits. Of course they need to count for something, but the current ratio is unreasonable because gank and tank are the most important dimensions for battleships in order for them to fill their role. P.S. I realize that most people don't fit a neut on the mega. Ditching it will help with the fitting problems, but I wanted to show that it can be fitted.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.10.04 12:42:00 - [70] Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 04/10/2008 12:42:44 You're still counting on the damn guns' optimal. With projectile turrets, you aren't working under such ideal circumstances, unless you happen upon a Megathron or some other ship that lets you get that close. And even then, likely only for a short time or with other problems. Also... Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Space Fascist But capless weapons. This guy knows what he's talking about. TWO! Two Large Autocannons! Ah ah ah! FOUR! Four Large Autocannons! Ah ah ah! SIX! Six Large Autocannons! Ah ah ah! How much cap is that, children? Zero! No cap! Ah ah ah ah! How much does that leave you with? Still less than the other races! Ah ah ah ah- SMACK! ...
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 17:54:00 - [71] I enjoy this. Everybody that supports a Tempest buff is using plain and simple numbers while everyone who goes against it is using very personalized opinions while pointing out things that don't really come into play anyawys. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.04 18:13:00 - [72] Originally by: DubanFP I enjoy this. Everybody that supports a Tempest buff is using plain and simple numbers while everyone who goes against it is using very personalized opinions while pointing out things that don't really come into play anyawys. I don't like to throw out names, but there's a poster in general that exemplifies this statement. This is also the basis for all arguments against a minnie boost in the 50 page thread.
Amaris Echitase	Posted - 2008.10.04 22:52:00 - [73] Personally I like the Tempest it is a fun ship to fly.....against Angels. Where do people pull the DPS numbers from for Auto Cannons? I always thought the further out into fall of I fought, the more fractional my max theoretical damage became. Oh sure my tank stays the same which compared to most other BSs is basically one or two steps above honour tanking. I don't know, maybe I'm playing a different game? What happens in game and in EFT are two entirely different things.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.04 23:08:00 - [74] Originally by: Amaris Echitase I always thought the further out into fall of I fought, the more fractional my max theoretical damage became. This works great on cruisers but Large lasers with void L has a half decent optimal + falloff and a Lasers sport the best optimal range. Considering you have to fight within 24km to keep your target to scram and that battleships can't rely on high speeds to make sure they don't get web and it becomes a non-issue on battleships. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.05 00:58:00 - [75] All I want for Minmatar BS: 7% damage increase for all large projectile weapons Damage bonus instead of ROF on Maelstrom (DPS = same as before 7% damage boost) EMP and Carbo lead made equal to other T1 short and long range ammo (boost EMP, nerf carbo lead) Remove optimal penalty on Hail; also change falloff penalty on Void to 25%. Possibly change Tempest to 4 med / 7 low layout, but TBH I'd still never fly it over the Maelstrom (which is ownage solo, with web and point fit, despite what others might say) signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
kessah Suicidal Tendencies Ltd	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:39:00 - [76] My opinion of the Tempest is it needs -1 low slot +1 medium slot. Shear versatility is the above and beyond winner of any popular ship. It is in effect imho ofc, a Minmatar Raven or should be.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.05 01:43:00 - [77] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 05/10/2008 01:44:45 I agree with you on it needing versatility, but I disagree that it should come in the flavor of med slots; the two spare highs however make for some interesting variations. That said a six med shield tempest is something I might actually fly, IF they give it enough CPU that is. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
emf Amarr Knights Of the Black Sun	Posted - 2008.10.05 09:47:00 - [78] but capless guns... Dunno why so many people seem to think the typhoon is good. Having to put 2 types of damage mods just ruins it. Join Knights of the Black Sun today. Contact emf in game.
Jeetah	Posted - 2008.10.05 11:44:00 - [79] Originally by: DubanFP It's just the battleships are the problem Not just the battleships, but any minatar ship above BC class, but i won't start another whinnig thread on the naglfar (requiring more training time than other dreads, and still having worse tank, and lower dps) :(
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:29:00 - [80] It's all classes, because of the guns. Take a look at the claw and stiletto - they could be great ships, but they're some of the worst inties because their weaponry is balls. There's 3 minnie ship that are worth a damn, Rifter, Rupture, and Hurricane. Rifter, because it has lots of fitting room due to low PG requirements by ACs. Rupture, because it can fit a 1600mm plate due to the low PG requirements by ACs and the Hurricane, because.. well, you get the picture. Excluding logistics, dictors, stealth bombers etc which are nearly indentical, I feel these are the only 3 ships that are near the top or are at the top of their class. And the hurricane is debatable, I would put it closely behind a drake and harbinger. The typhoon perhaps as an honorable mention, though it has many issues that need to be addressed first. At the moment it's just a poor armor tanked raven.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.05 15:34:00 - [81] Edited by: DubanFP on 05/10/2008 15:35:21 Originally by: AstroPhobic Rifter, because it has lots of fitting room due to low PG requirements by ACs. Rupture, because it can fit a 1600mm plate due to the low PG requirements by ACs and the Hurricane, because.. well, you get the picture. Have you even flown a hurricane? the 1600mm plate is just a bonus. A full gank cane's DPS is second to none. I'll fight a Harbinger or Drake ANY day. Even those pain in the ass no-tackle drakes. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Zarnak Wulf	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:03:00 - [82] How would you fix the Tempest? Change the slot layout? Wait for a projectile buff? Add a 7th turret? Maybe make it the fastest and lightest BS after the speed nerf? Ala Fleet Issue Stabber? I've read the 7th turret arguement. What else can be done?
Haniblecter Teg	Posted - 2008.10.05 16:35:00 - [83] Minnie's cant alpha anymore. Add subsystem damage and allow projectiles to have a greater chance at inflicting it. AC's are fine, they have the best range. ----------------- Friends Forever
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:10:00 - [84] Originally by: DubanFP I have to disagree with those sentiments. The Hurricane is an ungodly DPS machine. The added 1600mm plate is just a bonus. I'll fight a Harbinger or Drake ANY day. Even those pain in the ass super-tanked no-tackle drakes break under heavy Cane fire. Hmm. Even with 425s/hail/3 gyros, 2x ham/cn missiles (can't fit 1600 plate), it does 800 DPS. The harby with 7 HPL/AN MF/3 HS does 760. I'd call it about even (and actually favor the harby a bit) due to the range, with the cane at 1.5 + 5km and the harby at 7.5 + 5km. Also the option of scorch is invaluable. However, the biggest distinction is the tracking penalty of hail. Especially with the upcoming web nerf, tracking becomes all the more important and our lack of a true RF EMP kills us. Not only is 3 damage types stupid (switch to fusion plox), but it does 9% less DPS than other high damage ammo and that really kills us with faction ammo. I'm not saying it's a bad boat, I like it a lot, but without that 1600 plate it's simply mincemeat for a hamdrake or a well kitted harby. Quote: The Rupture holds true but it's strength is in that it doesn't give up that much DPS for the plate. The rifters strength is versatillity with great damage. It doesn't really tank. The stabber, which you failed to mention, is a great nanoboat. Agreed with the exception of the stabber, which won't be able to nano postpatch. 6/3/3 is pretty lame too, I'd opt for a 5/4/3. Quote: I think all of those ships are excellent. Superb even. Look at them, they all work very well. The problem with the tempest is NONE of the above holds true for it. It can't fit a massively oversized plate like the Rupture while retaining DPS, it's not high damage and versatile like the rifter, it doesn't have the gank of the hurricane, and it's no nano-boat. Right, but you see the reason that those other ships are good have nothing to do with projectiles really. They're broken, for every class. If CCP decided to follow their current minmatar mold, those 3 ships would be worthless. The rifter would have much less fitting (char. of minnie ships), the rupture would be 5/4/4 (char. of our double dmg bonus ships), and the cane would have 5 turrets, following the logical progression of our gank ships. Quote: The Tempest has picked up every single bad trait of the Minmitar fleet while missing every single good one, but the other ships do have some very good traits that make them well worth using. Right, and combined with a decent weapon system, imagine the possibilities.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 17:12:00 - [85] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg AC's are fine, they have the best range. I'm sorry, what? I'd like to see you expand on that, because ACs have undoubtedly the worst range of any weapon system.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.05 19:54:00 - [86] Edited by: DubanFP on 05/10/2008 19:56:52 Originally by: AstroPhobic the upcoming web nerf, ... Agreed with the exception of the stabber, which won't be able to nano postpatch. 6/3/3 is pretty lame too, I'd opt for a 5/4/3. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Notice how CCP hasn't even mentioned the nano-nerf since it got flamed to hell? I'm surprized so many people still tote it around as fact considering how ignored it is and how heavily flamed it was. If it's not dead it's probebly been shelved for a while. Originally by: AstroPhobic If CCP decided to follow their current minmatar mold, those 3 ships would be worthless. That's just it. They didn't follow the minmitar mold and it worked out beautifully for almost everything Minmitar. Why ruin that balance for one pitiful ship that breaks the entire Battleship line. The only problems is that the only battleship with the bonuses that suggest gank "tempest" can't even gank. Make it so it can actually do what it's designed to do and at least then it'll have some usefulness. Originally by: AstroPhobic Right, and combined with a decent weapon system, imagine the possibilities. It's called a "nerf". What you're suggesting would be the death of everything that currently attracts people to Minmitar to make it more like Gallente/Amarr. Why not just fix the Tempest instead? That and maybe give Artillery a boost, but ACs work fine. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:28:00 - [87] Originally by: DubanFP I've said it before and i'll say it again. Notice how CCP hasn't even mentioned the nano-nerf since it got flamed to hell? I'm surprized so many people still tote it around as fact considering how ignored it is and how heavily flamed it was. If it's not dead it's probebly been shelved for a while. I can't say anything about it, in fact I've been quite busy with things more important than eve. I'll try to keep things "current". Quote: That's just it. They didn't follow the minmitar mold and it worked out beautifully for almost everything Minmitar. Why ruin that balance for one pitiful ship that breaks the entire Battleship line. What balance? Minmatar doesn't have a balance. Their ships follow no mold. It's all over the place. The only thing consistent is speed, but in the one important class (interceptors), we still fail. There is no set mold for minmatar ships to use as advantage. Minnie ships basically fall under two categories: Armor plated AC double damage bonus ship, or some odd combination of missiles, guns, drones, speed and medium slots. The first category is good in theory, but gets blasted to hell and back by every other race's ganktank. The second category has been slowly nerfed in the last 2 or so years. Quote: The only problems is that the only battleship with the bonuses that suggest gank "tempest" can't even gank. Make it so it can actually do what it's designed to do and at least then it'll have some usefulness. This I agree with. 7 turrets, more fitting, a high for a low. Neuts belong on the phoon (honestly, why use AC + neuts instead of Torps + neuts?). The tempest simply cannot compete with ships like the armageddon, megathron, raven, or abaddon. Quote: It's called a "nerf". What you're suggesting would be the death of everything that currently attracts people to Minmitar to make it more like Gallente/Amarr. Why not just fix the Tempest instead? That and maybe give Artillery a boost, but ACs work fine. No, they don't. I have voiced my suggestions for improvement multiple times, none of them making minmatar more like the other races. I understand the importance of each race to have their own flavor, but when the flavor is fail, adding a little bit of other races isn't a bad thing. Quote: P.S. I can get a hurricane to fit a 1600mm plate with 800 DPS. In fact my current setup gets 840DPS, a 1600mm plate, and i don't even have 100% level V skills either. I know I can get it up at least another 15 DPS with 1 or two skills. I'm not seeing it. Full rack of 425s with hail, 3 gyros, 2 HAM IIs with CN torrent, 4 hobgobs and a hammerhead, max skills, gives me 809 DPS. You can play implants and stuff, but that would apply to the harby too. With my less than perfect drone skills, I get about 750 out of the above.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.05 20:53:00 - [88] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg AC's are fine, they have the best range. No, they don't. They have the worst range. They've got best falloff, but you have to keep in mind that you do 39.5% of your DPS output at optimal+falloff - which is fail. At any rate for ranged shooting, Amarr does by far the best out of all close range weapon systems. The ranges of Scorch-loaded lasers are immense. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:21:00 - [89] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Haniblecter Teg AC's are fine, they have the best range. No, they don't. They have the worst range. They've got best falloff, but you have to keep in mind that you do 39.5% of your DPS output at optimal+falloff - which is fail. At any rate for ranged shooting, Amarr does by far the best out of all close range weapon systems. The ranges of Scorch-loaded lasers are immense. Where is everyone getting there math from?? A cracker jack box? Its pretty clearly states in the turrets guide that you do 50%dmg at optimal+falloff. Now unless CCP has givin yall a more indepth look into the mechanics of the game than that, and your choosing not to tell us, then I assume that the DEV who wrote that tatorial was right.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 21:25:00 - [90] Originally by: Lance Mercer Where is everyone getting there math from?? A cracker jack box? Its pretty clearly states in the turrets guide that you do 50%dmg at optimal+falloff. Now unless CCP has givin yall a more indepth look into the mechanics of the game than that, and your choosing not to tell us, then I assume that the DEV who wrote that tatorial was right. The dev didn't account for hit quality. It's OBVIOUS that hit quality scales with falloff. Go to 2x falloff of a weapon and tell me how many excellent hits you get - wait, i'll tell you, it's 0. There's a chance of a perfect hit at every range, but the excellents dissapear somewhere within 1x falloff.
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.05 22:18:00 - [91] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Lance Mercer Where is everyone getting there math from?? A cracker jack box? Its pretty clearly states in the turrets guide that you do 50%dmg at optimal+falloff. Now unless CCP has givin yall a more indepth look into the mechanics of the game than that, and your choosing not to tell us, then I assume that the DEV who wrote that tatorial was right. The dev didn't account for hit quality. It's OBVIOUS that hit quality scales with falloff. Go to 2x falloff of a weapon and tell me how many excellent hits you get - wait, i'll tell you, it's 0. There's a chance of a perfect hit at every range, but the excellents dissapear somewhere within 1x falloff. Ok you still failed to tell me where your getting your math from.. 39.5%??? and yes at 2x falloff+optimal you have 0% chance to hit, that means 0 excellent hits. Im amazed Astro that you have learned to point out the mundane and truelly obvious.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.05 22:39:00 - [92] Originally by: Lance Mercer Ok you still failed to tell me where your getting your math from.. 39.5%??? and yes at 2x falloff+optimal you have 0% chance to hit, that means 0 excellent hits. Do I really need to hold your hand while doing elementary math? 100% chance to hit at optimal. 102% of paper DPS done due to hit quality (99% chance of hits ranging from 1.5 to 0.5x, 1% chance of 3x). 102% DPS. 50% chance to hit at optimal + falloff. 77% of paper DPS done due to hit quality (99% chance of hits ranging from 1.0 to 0.5x, 1% chance of 3x). 0.5(.77)= 38.5%. Quote: Im amazed Astro that you have learned to point out the mundane and truelly obvious. I'm amazed that you managed to graduate from grade school while unable to do things like scale numbers, use percents, or spell "truly". However I didn't feel the need to point this out until now.
Night Tripper Es and Whizz	Posted - 2008.10.05 23:58:00 - [93] capless weapons, choice of damage types best alpha ingame you don't know you were born
Cypress Cavalero Redemption or Retribution	Posted - 2008.10.06 00:38:00 - [94] to the op, learn to play- Dont cry about how the megathron can outgank your tempest based on eft numbers at 0km -of course it can, its a mega, your not taking into account the tracking/falloff advantage a skilled tempest pilot can take on a mega WITHOUT a boost. Did you realise you could move in space whislt pressing f1-f8 0.o
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.06 01:24:00 - [95] Originally by: Night Tripper capless weapons, choice of damage types best alpha ingame you don't know you were born Funny, that sounds like torpedos, not projectiles. Try again thanks?
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.06 01:58:00 - [96] Edited by: DubanFP on 06/10/2008 01:59:24 Originally by: Cypress Cavalero to the op, learn to play- Dont cry about how the megathron can outgank your tempest based on eft numbers at 0km -of course it can, its a mega, your not taking into account the tracking/falloff advantage a skilled tempest pilot can take on a mega WITHOUT a boost. Did you realise you could move in space whislt pressing f1-f8 0.o Have you ever even flown the Tempest? Anyways we went over it and Falloff = useless on large ships. We actually used numbers. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.06 02:23:00 - [97] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/10/2008 02:25:14 Originally by: Lance Mercer Ok you still failed to tell me where your getting your math from.. 39.5%??? and yes at 2x falloff+optimal you have 0% chance to hit, that means 0 excellent hits. For your pleasure, the hit quality formula, optimized for octave (it's free, works under linux, and I like it. If matlab is more to your liking, im preety sure it works under it too): optimal_penality=max(0,range-optimal) to_hit=0.5((optimal_penality/falloff)2) actual_dps=eft_dps(min(to_hit,0.01)3+max(0,(to_hit-0.01))*(0.99+to_hit)/2) Tested. Have fun with it Tracking guide says nothing about hit quality. It just states to hit chances. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lance Mercer	Posted - 2008.10.06 05:31:00 - [98] Edited by: Lance Mercer on 06/10/2008 05:33:40 Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 06/10/2008 02:25:14 Originally by: Lance Mercer Ok you still failed to tell me where your getting your math from.. 39.5%??? and yes at 2x falloff+optimal you have 0% chance to hit, that means 0 excellent hits. For your pleasure, the hit quality formula, optimized for octave (it's free, works under linux, and I like it. If matlab is more to your liking, im preety sure it works under it too): optimal_penality=max(0,range-optimal) to_hit=0.5((optimal_penality/falloff)2) actual_dps=eft_dps(min(to_hit,0.01)3+max(0,(to_hit-0.01))(0.99+to_hit)/2) Tested. Have fun with it Tracking guide says nothing* about hit quality. It just states to hit chances. Ok wait...since when did turret damage become chance based? Where Did CCP post the formula for this within there program language? Or did one of you math junkies decide to try and create a formula to simulate tracking vs. transversal velocity vs. velocity vs. signiture radius of target vs. rads/s of turret in question vs. range? P.S. I have highlighted the portion of your post to aid you in the answer... How can people try to create the answer when CCP themselves release the real info.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.10.06 08:16:00 - [99] In before someone claims the Tempest has OK DPS because 2 Tempests can beat 1 Mega! How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.06 11:18:00 - [100] And i'm also in before any idiots who claim the Tempest sucks because it have lower DPS and a little bit crappier tank than a Megathron, Geddon, Domi etc. Check out my new flash web page 'Quantum Singularity'
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.06 11:24:00 - [101] Originally by: NightmareX And i'm also in before any idiots who claim the Tempest sucks because it have lower DPS and a little bit crappier tank than a Megathron, Geddon, Domi etc. "I'm also in before any idiots who claim the Tempest sucks because it's sub-par to competitors." Ooook Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Lamonadetomare Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:03:00 - [102] want a fix for minmater ships and eve in general? remove rigs from the game.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:28:00 - [103] Originally by: Lance Mercer How can people try to create the answer when CCP themselves release the real info. Just like everything else, people observed, came up with a hypothesis, tested it, found computed results matched test results, and after that accepted it as valid. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.06 23:41:00 - [104] Originally by: Lance Mercer Ok wait...since when did turret damage become chance based? Where Did CCP post the formula for this within there program language? Do you even play eve? One who has played even a week can tell that excellent hits do more damage than light hits. This is called hit quality. Hit quality ranges from 1.5x to 0.5x with a 1% chance of 3x. Quote: Or did one of you math junkies decide to try and create a formula to simulate tracking vs. transversal velocity vs. velocity vs. signiture radius of target vs. rads/s of turret in question vs. range? Hit quality is separate from tracking. All DPS numbers are assuming the turrets have a tracking of an unlimited rad/s. Quote: P.S. I have highlighted the portion of your post to aid you in the answer... How can people try to create the answer when CCP themselves release the real info. That's like saying CCP released information that the grass is green, but no information that sunflowers are yellow, therefore sunflowers CANT be yellow. Duh.
Halock	Posted - 2008.10.07 07:00:00 - [105] Astro, stop arguing with the fool please, keep the old saying in mind.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.07 12:30:00 - [106] Originally by: Cypress Cavalero to the op, learn to play- Dont cry about how the megathron can outgank your tempest based on eft numbers at 0km -of course it can, its a mega, your not taking into account the tracking/falloff advantage a skilled tempest pilot can take on a mega WITHOUT a boost. Did you realise you could move in space whislt pressing f1-f8 0.o Tracking advantage? Guess what, neutrons on a Mega track better than 800mm autos on a Tempest. Falloff advantage? Yes there is a falloff advantage, but the Mega has an optimal advantage, and comparing Null to Barrage, an 800mm II doesn't have a better hit-chance than a Neutron II until ~ 19km. If you take into account the Mega having one extra damage mod the tempest doesn't have, as well as the extra drone bay, the Tempest doesn't out-damage the Mega until you get past warp disruptor range. Also, at that range the damage output of autocannons would have a hard time breaking a T1 cruiser, much less a Mega. Of course in a pure 1v1 situation the Tempest could fit a tracking disruptor. but pure 1v1s don't happen much on TQ. Solo play isn't about flying a ship thats good at 1v1, but a ship that is good against 1v2+. Anyway, I'm done complaining about the tempest since I'll never fly it over the Maelstrom for gang or solo anyway (armor sucks for pvp TBH), and I'm perfectly happy with my Mael. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.07 23:56:00 - [107] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 07/10/2008 23:56:48 Originally by: Halock Astro, stop arguing with the fool please, keep the old saying in mind. Hrm, there's no harm in educating the ignorant. It only becomes problematic when you start using opinions or emotions to dictate your argument (also known as downshifting your brain from the neo-cortex to the limbic system ), therefore "dragging you down to their level". All's good if you stay one level above.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.08 00:56:00 - [108] Originally by: AstroPhobic Edited by: AstroPhobic on 07/10/2008 23:56:48 Originally by: Halock Astro, stop arguing with the fool please, keep the old saying in mind. Hrm, there's no harm in educating the ignorant. It only becomes problematic when you start using opinions or emotions to dictate your argument (also known as downshifting your brain from the neo-cortex to the limbic system ), therefore "dragging you down to their level". All's good if you stay one level above. The problem is they lack the higher gears to up-shift into so there is no way they can comprehend what you have to say, much less argue with it. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.08 02:18:00 - [109] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter The problem is they lack the higher gears to up-shift into so there is no way they can comprehend what you have to say, much less argue with it. This is the beauty of forums, as I'm not really arguing with the person, rather the idea. There's lots of people who read and don't bother to post, people who might even see his argument as valid. Trust me, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with one idiot, but readers at times may need additional guidance.
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.08 11:48:00 - [110] Edited by: DubanFP on 08/10/2008 11:52:54 Originally by: AstroPhobic This is the beauty of forums, as I'm not really arguing with the person, rather the idea. There's lots of people who read and don't bother to post, people who might even see his argument as valid. Trust me, I wouldn't waste my time arguing with one idiot, but readers at times may need additional guidance. Yeah I see your point, but the way I see it is this. You may be smarter then the brick, but does that make it a good idea to whack it against your forhead repeatedly in the hope that it breaks? _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.09 00:23:00 - [111] Originally by: DubanFP You may be smarter then the brick, but does that make it a good idea to whack it against your forhead repeatedly in the hope that it breaks? I have a strong forehead... and time to kill. Yarrrr.
General Sadistis	Posted - 2008.10.09 00:51:00 - [112] TEMPEST TRIBAL ISSUE... nuff said sure it takes lvl 5 battleship but it also has 8 guns which makes the bonus more worth it also i shield tank my tempest and it is SICK...
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 01:00:00 - [113] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/10/2008 00:59:53 Originally by: General Sadistis TEMPEST TRIBAL ISSUE... nuff said sure it takes lvl 5 battleship but it also has 8 guns which makes the bonus more worth it also i shield tank my tempest and it is SICK... Is this a joke? There's only a handful of them in the entire game. They cost billions if you can even find one.. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.09 01:16:00 - [114] 8/10, I nearly put my mouse on the reply button.
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.09 02:00:00 - [115] Quote: "Capless weapons!!!" What about the capless weapons? Projectiles are not the only capless weapon in the game. Missiles are capless too. Raven and Tempest both have 6641 capacitor with all skills on 5.(4980 with MWD) Torpedo Raven with tackling gear and shield buffer tank can have around 94k EHP, 1107 raw DPS at 30km (around 850 DPS after the signature radius damage reduction) and can choose the damage type. Lasers need cap, don't need to reload and don't need a lot of ammo in the cargo bay = more cap charges in cargo. More than that, lasers have the best base optimal range. Apocalypse = 9375 capactor. (7031 with MWD) With megapulses 3x heat sinks II and MF, it uses 28 cap per second (15 per gun, 8 guns, ROF around 4,3 sec). Let's say we have Tempest with MWD and Apocalypse with MWD. Apocalypse have 2051 more cap than Tempest. 28 cap per second = 73 seconds shooting, before that extra 2051 capacitor is all used. And we all know, that extra standart capacitor size means extra peak cap recharge. Sure, it's very nice to use heavy neut's and fight laser boats with no cap boosters on board, but it will be PvP Tempest setup against PvE Apocalypse setup fight, and we are not talking about those here. BTW, it's funny, Apocalypse don't have any damage bonuses, and still can have 890 raw DPS on 21km optimal + 10km falloff, 90k EHP. (743 with scorch L , 62+10 range) [Sarcasm] Tempest have both damage and ROF bonus, but...oh, well it have capless weapons too! More than that! You can use Barrage L and get nice range - 6km optimal + 30km falloff! It's great, because you have 3 times more falloff than Apocalypse with Scorch L, and 10 times worse optimal range! And even more that that! You can actually choose the damage type, if you want to loose some of your raw DPS or range. [/Sarcasm] ---
Zionysus	Posted - 2008.10.09 09:32:00 - [116] Originally by: Volt Taar Quote: "Capless weapons!!!" What about the capless weapons? Projectiles are not the only capless weapon in the game. Missiles are capless too. Raven and Tempest both have 6641 capacitor with all skills on 5.(4980 with MWD) Torpedo Raven with tackling gear and shield buffer tank can have around 94k EHP, 1107 raw DPS at 30km (around 850 DPS after the signature radius damage reduction) and can choose the damage type. Lasers need cap, don't need to reload and don't need a lot of ammo in the cargo bay = more cap charges in cargo. More than that, lasers have the best base optimal range. Apocalypse = 9375 capactor. (7031 with MWD) With megapulses 3x heat sinks II and MF, it uses 28 cap per second (15 per gun, 8 guns, ROF around 4,3 sec). Let's say we have Tempest with MWD and Apocalypse with MWD. Apocalypse have 2051 more cap than Tempest. 28 cap per second = 73 seconds shooting, before that extra 2051 capacitor is all used. And we all know, that extra standart capacitor size means extra peak cap recharge. Sure, it's very nice to use heavy neut's and fight laser boats with no cap boosters on board, but it will be PvP Tempest setup against PvE Apocalypse setup fight, and we are not talking about those here. BTW, it's funny, Apocalypse don't have any damage bonuses, and still can have 890 raw DPS on 21km optimal + 10km falloff, 90k EHP. (743 with scorch L , 62+10 range) [Sarcasm] Tempest have both damage and ROF bonus, but...oh, well it have capless weapons too! More than that! You can use Barrage L and get nice range - 6km optimal + 30km falloff! It's great, because you have 3 times more falloff than Apocalypse with Scorch L, and 10 times worse optimal range! And even more that that! You can actually choose the damage type, if you want to loose some of your raw DPS or range. [/Sarcasm] I agree on your points with the Raven, however there are a couple things Id like to clear up. Amarr Bs's have relatively small cargo holds, so no, less room for charges. also, they have the most expensive ammo, so while not having to carry tons of it in space, its still worth a lot. Lasers also have the worst tracking and are harder to fit.
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.09 12:48:00 - [117] Originally by: Zionysus I agree on your points with the Raven, however there are a couple things Id like to clear up. Amarr Bs's have relatively small cargo holds, so no, less room for charges. also, they have the most expensive ammo, so while not having to carry tons of it in space, its still worth a lot. Lasers also have the worst tracking and are harder to fit. Some numbers: Tempest - 600m3 cargo. Apocalypse - 675m3 cargo. Who needs more space for ammo? Tempest with AC's (EMP) = 6 guns x 100 ISK every 3 seconds. Apocalypse with megapulses (MF) = 8 guns x 250k ISK every time you loose the ship. Apocalypse - 2 000 000 ISK - unlimited MF shooting, no reload times. Tempest - 17 280 000 ISK = 24 hours shooting EMP, you will need 7200 EMP L ammo for every hour. Yes, lasers are harder to fit and have worse tracking. They have some very nice benefits to counter that. Like higher ammo base damage: MF L = 28 Em + 20 Thermal damage (48) EMP = 20 Em + 8 Kin + 16 Expl damage (44) Like a lot better optimal range: MF L + megapulses on Apocalypse = 21+10 (62+10 with Scorch) EMP L = 800mm AC's on Tempest = 3+20 (6+30 with Barrage L) And just to show you the picture after you fit those lasers: Tempest (Damage and RoF bonuses), 800mm AC's (EMP L), 3x gyro setup = 80451 EHP, 814 DPS. Apocalypse (Lasers range and capacitor usage bonuses), megapulses (MF), 3x heat sink setup = 90581 EHP, 796 DPS. I can understand your point, that any advantage goes with some disadvantages. I'm OK with that point. Some disadvantages are OK to have (like amarr have great optimal range at the cost of worse tracking and some cap usage), but we have almost all of the disadvantages at once for only one advantage - capless weapons . Worse cargo, worse range, worse base ammo damage, worse tank, worse capacitor size, reloading times...its just not worth it. ---
DubanFP Caldari Kylia Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.09 20:28:00 - [118] volt you missed his fitting issue. Mainly that the Amarr ships have that much more PG to use and that CPU on the tempest is tight. _______________ "Cheap" and "Lame" are words created by people who refuse to admit they have been completely and utterly outclassed.
Volt Taar Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.09 21:25:00 - [119] Originally by: DubanFP volt you missed his fitting issue. Mainly that the Amarr ships have that much more PG to use and that CPU on the tempest is tight. Well, all the ships have some fitting issues of their own. It's the final result after the ship is fitted that is more important. For an example: In fleet, Apocalypse can't fit Tachyons or Megabeams without fitting modules, but can fit Dual Heavy Beams and still shoot to 183km optimal (3x optimal rigs), have MWD, Cap booster (to counter neuts), Cap stability (one Cap relay II), DD tank (2x1600mm plates+EANM), 2x heat sinks. This is something, that Tempest can't do. ---

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