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Viliny Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:37:00 - [61] The continuing offers of "Power of two" don't help your case at all... CCP wants us all to have 5 accounts.
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:37:00 - [62] again, first point, I don't want name changes. I don't want any mechanical changes at all. I like the way things work rather well as far as character names and alts work. alternate characters exist as meta. its fine for that purpose, its a game. Many things like super concord were designed from that very perspective to keep highsec safe when not even the Borg could come close to that level of efficiency (and having a god GM hand in play just to punish those who do evade concord, somehow.) second point again - I play world of warcraft as well (at the moment playing it more since I hadn't in almost a year) and when I'm on a PvP server, you know what I do in the odd chance I get corpse camped? Logoff, and log onto another server, another character so my boredom ceases. in EVE and WoW, there are many times in which I will be powerless to remedy the situation like being camped, regardless. Being able to logout and switch to something else my opponents can't target is good. they're not after me after all, they're after my character! third - as I said, its a game. Things in for convinience, actions that are purely meta because you can look up a guidebook, strategy guide online, etc are perfectly fine. Logging out in a system with no stations to use the ability to vanish in space and stop being a target because you could see on your alt 3 jumps up to a chokepoint that hostiles are incoming, is A-OK given the way how broken actual mechanics are to defend yourself while earning money. Another one bites the dust.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:42:00 - [63] Originally by: Viliny The continuing offers of "Power of two" don't help your case at all... CCP wants us all to have 5 accounts. Its like people don't even bother reading the thread before responding to it. ^____^ Who would have thought? On the internet! Originally by: Delichon The OP is right. Eve should not be "a second job that you have to pay for." It should be "the only job that you have (and you have to pay for)." The OP should be elected for all seat of CSM immidiately. Finally someone recognizes my brilliance! I always knew i was special. The girls used to think i was strange throwing quarters at them, but it helped me learn how people work. (you have to put the coins in the slots and then turn the little thing and the egg pops out)
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:49:00 - [64] Originally by: Kage Psychodin again, first point, I don't want name changes. I don't want any mechanical changes at all. I like the way things work rather well as far as character names and alts work. alternate characters exist as meta. its fine for that purpose, its a game. Many things like super concord were designed from that very perspective to keep highsec safe when not even the Borg could come close to that level of efficiency (and having a god GM hand in play just to punish those who do evade concord, somehow.) You feel safe because you know how things work and you dont want them to be messed with. That concord thing however is somewhat meaningful, that's the only real approach i see to arguing against me, but first you would have to figure out a way to associate what i want with me wanting 'realism', and then show how concord is not 'realistic'. And that sort of argument rarely fairs well in games. Quote: second point again - I play world of warcraft as well (at the moment playing it more since I hadn't in almost a year) and when I'm on a PvP server, you know what I do in the odd chance I get corpse camped? Logoff, and log onto another server, another character so my boredom ceases. in EVE and WoW, there are many times in which I will be powerless to remedy the situation like being camped, regardless. Being able to logout and switch to something else my opponents can't target is good. they're not after me after all, they're after my character! Thats a bad example because pvp in WoW is a joke, and doubly so on gank servers. Also comparing a mechanic in eve with one in WoW is not a smart move ^____^ And saying eve is fine because its pvp is like WoWs pvp would probably make you enemies somewhere. Quote: third - as I said, its a game. Things in for convinience, actions that are purely meta because you can look up a guidebook, strategy guide online, etc are perfectly fine. Logging out in a system with no stations to use the ability to vanish in space and stop being a target because you could see on your alt 3 jumps up to a chokepoint that hostiles are incoming, is A-OK given the way how broken actual mechanics are to defend yourself while earning money. Thats right, actual mechanics are broken. That is another thread however.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Vabjekf Edited by: Vabjekf on 03/10/2008 06:25:56 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Vabjekf Its like two posts up made one post up appear just to emphasize its point. Oh universe! You never let me down. Or maybe everyone who has posted in this thread, is just my alt. ¼_¼ I take it this means you wont be sending me the money? That would probably be against the EULA somewhere. Besides as previously implied, stated, and/or suggested elsewhere im not asking you to do what you want to charge me for. But nearly outlining the reason why that is the optimal state of the game and anyone who does not lead a life of pure holy altlessness is simply taking up evil upon themselves to fit in with the evils of the system currently. Clearly common people cant be expected to resist, nor can a theif stealing food so he does not starve be blamed. But actions need not comply with ideology. In fact if your actions DO comply with what you believe in its probably more a sign that you have compromised your idea or rightness to correspond with what you are comfortable preforming. But I did consider it momentarily for a mostly unrelated reason... just to try and visualize if it would be a worthwhile boost to my internet fame. Then i realized people probably wouldn't bother remembering me as 'that person who payed the guy to delete his alts'. So i decided against it. Haha good answer! But consider: I, personally (and I realise that you have nothing to "prove" this except my word and the difficulty of finding anyone to plausibly assert otherwise) do not use my alts to forum-shitpost scam, spy, pirate or steal. I use them to "catch up" to older players and train more skills faster. To a certain extent they increase my earning potential, but in practice the delta is pretty minimal most of the time. The only real exception being scouting with my main for my alt in a Blockade Runner - which I cba to do any more. I've found that being "rich" is more convenient than necessary.
Kathryn Dougans Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:57:00 - [66] Originally by: Vabjekf The girls used to think i was strange throwing quarters at them, but it helped me learn how people work. (you have to put the coins in the slots and then turn the little thing and the egg pops out) Wait, what? Don't ask me about the cows.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.03 07:57:00 - [67] I used an alt to hold my money when i got rid of my last character and made this one.
Kage Psychodin Caldari The Empire Nation Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:01:00 - [68] Vabjekf, don't evade my second question. Any form of PvP costs you something. even if its the simple act of running to your body, and then possibly dying again before you had a chance.(time) Being camped is being camped. it causes a loss of time, and boredom. In WoW I can log off and play a different character. I should be able to do the same here as I do. That is one of the benefits of playing a console or computer game. (at least a benefit I feel exists and SHOULD exist. third question - I don't feel those mechanics are broken at all. Quite a few are unfair, broken balance wise in case of ship power and such, perhaps. (it is solely up to CCP though) However, given the power of Two offers, its not so much that "No alts one account" is really even a valid way to approach the problem. Just look at the offer. CCP really DID design mechanics and perhaps even alt scouting, and the ability to hide and cook level 4s for a hundred mil a day in NPC corps as their actual intent. Thet are the sole arbiters on it, and given this is a game, its not erm...fallacious? for them to think and decree so. Another one bites the dust.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.10.03 08:41:00 - [69] Well. Getting rid of alts would give some good results indeed, however it is not going to happen bcos how integrated are alts already in EVE. And ofc poor noobs would cry even harder if guys with 8 accounts get 'condensed' into one 'ubercharacter' with 200 mil SP.
ramzahn Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.03 09:00:00 - [70] My first introduction to role-playing games happened in the form of the "Eye of the Beholder" games from Westwood. I, regrettably, never knew the classical Pen & Paper variant. For me that implied always steering a group of adventurers through dark and dangerous dungeons. I came to love that aspect. Caring for a group, multitasking them, and having the power of their different strengths, but also had to observe their personal weaknesses. Operating with an "Alt" brings part of that multitasking (and multi-personal) demand back to me. And I like that.

Newbear	Posted - 2008.10.03 09:12:00 - [71] Preposterous! One account per person is like having only one wife! How can you live off the income of just one woman? You westerners are so strange. Click here for my High Security POS Service
Metaller Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.10.03 11:30:00 - [72] Originally by: Vabjekf Alts are what kills low sec. Alts are what destroys pvp. Alts are what screw up politics. you have no idea! Ever tried living as -5.0 sec status in low sec? Alts are your only way to get supplies into low sec. And you need alot of supplies for low sec if you do pvp. Low sec would be much emptier if those alts werent there.
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.10.03 12:17:00 - [73] Edited by: Euriti on 03/10/2008 12:18:33 I'd quit if I couldn't have my second pvp char or my trade/industry alts. I'd quit if I couldn't get personal logistics to low sec as a pirate. I'd quit if ratting was my only isk making ability. OP you are dumb.
EglantinFinfleur Ecpyrosis	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:06:00 - [74] Originally by: Kage Psychodin 3. as to your silly metagame argument, when I play D&D (yes, dungeons and dragons, good old pen and paper with books kind) I'm not my character entirely. I view it as a set of skills, feats, class levels and racial features. Most people who play D&D view it as this. Metagaming is fine. Most fantasy and RPG universe are silly anyway to get into it, and IMO EVE is one of them. Its perfectly fine to have mechanics in place for no other reason then metagame balance and fairness. Its a Game, not the real world. (such as being able to leave your current character and play another.) Are you really sure it's still a game? The lowest and most philistine internet instrument -wikipedia-, tells us that according to the definition of a game, it has the followings elements, amongst others: - separate: it is circumscribed in time and place - uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable - governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life - fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality Clearly not circumscribed when you multi-box. Clearly not uncertain when you scout with alt, have alts docked ready to save your butt. Clearly not governed by different rules from everyday life when more money means more characters (for multiple boxes and accounts). And more importantly, clearly not fictitious: Most people don't play a game, they enact themselves or their unrestrained behavior, through a virtual world. Just like Goons don't play EvE but Something Awful, most players just want to get ahead of some other player -not played character-, by any means necessary. This is why this virtual world is called a griefer's paradise. For example, you can alt bait and alt gank to get your kicks, knowing that the harsh consequences are only in it for the other fool, who hasn't got alts to scout/bail him out. In this case, you haven't outplayed a character through your own character, you've taken advantage of different standards, rules being different for the two players (one has alts, the other not). As Vabjekf truthfully stated, players can get away with being jackasses and go all the way becoming them, because they can use alts and transfer their persona to another ingame character. Originally by: Kage Psychodin third question - I don't feel those mechanics are broken at all. Quite a few are unfair, broken balance wise in case of ship power and such, perhaps. (it is solely up to CCP though) However, given the power of Two offers, its not so much that "No alts one account" is really even a valid way to approach the problem. Just look at the offer. CCP really DID design mechanics and perhaps even alt scouting, and the ability to hide and cook level 4s for a hundred mil a day in NPC corps as their actual intent. Thet are the sole arbiters on it, and given this is a game, its not erm...fallacious? for them to think and decree so. Do you really want to know while you're being camped in 0.0, unable to undock from you alliance base? That's because half of the guys in your alliance, upon seeing raiders entering the area with an adequate force, just dock and log their alt to run level 4 missions in highsec space. Also, do you want to know why 0.0 life is total garbage and the relations between players so lamentable? - One account one alt players mine/rat to get isk - They get flak for making money from the real pvpers, who alt-run missions in highsec and don't engage till they have twice the numbers of their opponent - First group of players gets ganked in belts, gets called stupid by second group who weren't protecting their space but running missions, while waiting for first group of players to get in pvp ships to go and roam. Apart from the horrendous gameplay issues alt creates, they really make the general behavior of the average player in this game to get worse and worse. I wouldn't have predicted Loftys at release for example.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.03 13:21:00 - [75] This exact same thread appears every month or so. I say we allow 0 of these threads per account. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Black Tahee1	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:08:00 - [76] NC alt spotted who is ****ed off losing all their stuff because spies on their networks let the enemy know what they are doing.
Frances Ducoir Gallente Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion	Posted - 2008.10.03 14:52:00 - [77] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 03/10/2008 14:54:23 Originally by: Tiberius Maddox It's hard to overstate just how much more meaningful and gritty EVE's gameplay would be if everyone had a single character. Everyone would then have to face the consequences of his/her actions, both good and bad. Bounty hunting would work. Scammers would actually have to think before acting. Fleet warfare might just evolve into something a little more meaningful than a godawful blob/lagfest from hell. Sadly, I see no desire on CCP's part to make this happen, and it probably would be impossible anyway. So... the EVE universe will continue on its present path. THIS! i think 1 alt is ok, but NO multiple accounts. additionaly, the character with less skillpoints should get an "alt" flag, and the one with more skillpoints a "main" flag. ofc thats not a 100% secure identifier, because ppl could just skill their "alt" to have more sp, but at least this needs some effort. this would give ppl the possibilty to say "show me your main, and i'll trust you". ppl would finally have to take the consequences for their actions. snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Trovax Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:25:00 - [78] Multiple toons allow people to play eve when they get war dec'd for no reason at all and they did not want or do not want to participate in said war. They also allow those that DO want to participate in wars to get themselves a new ship from high sec without having to worry about gettin shot down so they can go have fun again. If peeps couldn't do that THEN there would be no one to fight, and eve would become quiet (as the OP suggested). Its so easy to declare war these days and costs peanuts (which i think should be revised by CCP to reflect todays eve universe), and not everyone want to be involved. Why should those war dec'in have all the fun when we all pay the same to play eve? I think the OP is being selfish and hasnt thought enough about his post. In some cases, its cheaper to declare war than it is to rent an office. Surely that cant be right? Theres a few things that need to be brought up to date in todays eve universe, but either they have no plans to do so, or they just have alot to do and things are in the works. We all know the CCP gods work their thrusters off to bring us an ever evolving gaming universe. anyways, think ive put my point accross (maybe not clearly, i have a hard time putting thoughts into words ) "I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant"
Traidor Disloyal The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Vabjekf There would be no more threat of 'alt spies'. Newer players would have an easier time intigrating into the community and not run off after a month or so. 0.0 would open up for neutral characters since the general trust level of the game has gone up. They would bring trade. There would be empire prices in 0.0. The extra movement between high sec and 0.0 would populate low sec and pirates would have more targets. The extra activity in general in low sec would make it safer bringing more mission runners to low sec and even miners. There would be no falcon alts. No probe alts. No forum alts. If you wanted to scam you would do it on your main. Has my next trick I will have world peace. --------------------------------------------- Love is having a second account with a cov ops pilot
Planks Unjustified Ancients of MuMu	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:28:00 - [80] Originally by: Zeba Die. /signed

LT Kayvaan	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:30:00 - [81] Originally by: Tiberius Maddox It's hard to overstate just how much more meaningful and gritty EVE's gameplay would be if everyone had a single character. Everyone would then have to face the consequences of his/her actions, both good and bad. Bounty hunting would work. Scammers would actually have to think before acting. Fleet warfare might just evolve into something a little more meaningful than a godawful blob/lagfest from hell. Sadly, I see no desire on CCP's part to make this happen, and it probably would be impossible anyway. So... the EVE universe will continue on its present path. Well that and getting rid of second accounts would drop the 300,000 people on a single server, to something about half of that. As about half this games subscribers are alts.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.10.03 15:54:00 - [82] Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 03/10/2008 02:57:13 Singular people should be made to use Singular characters on singular accounts? No metagaming at all? Let me get my head around this, 1 account/character per person? I find this concept most bizarre. A place where people can't meta farm roids to save time? No consequence throwaway alts that get huge restrictions put on everyone elses main that would no longer exist? No risk free coward scam alts? No risk free coward corp thief alts? No risk free noob ship scouts? NO WAI!! GO DIE!!! Yes CCP would force people to pay them much less money for the good of the game??? The game has been designed to NEED multiple accounts to encourage money into their pockets, not the other way around. What kind of ****ing airy fairy fantasy land are you living in? I suppose next you're going to be asking for politicians that care about the common people, and then teenagers who run neighbourhood watch schemes in their community while balancing a job with long hours and safe sex with a long term partner. Haha, madness!
Korizan	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:09:00 - [83] The problem is you are asking CCP to fix the human factor in the game. Remove alts, fine done. Now everyone is running ,multiple accounts. Remove them, how ? IP blocking, not full proof and can hurt people playing in dorms or 2 people playing in the same household. MAc address, same as IP it can be tricked and it is even easier with multiple computers. Okay what about the accounts checking them. Well first you would have to remove GTC's from the game as that is a glaring hole. And once again there are ways around credit cards as well. The point being no matter what you do people will find a way if they want to. All the items below are the human factor ,people choose to do them they are not FORCED into it. Spying Ganking Suicide Ganking Blob warfare. Cyno Alts GUnner Alts Trade alts blah blah blah. Granted you can put in game mechanics to make it hard to do some things but in the end it is the players who decide. This is a PVP game which means player run game. IF this was WOW or Everquest where the object is to beat the game PVE then you can go back to the creators and say fix it. But for the most part (NOT ALL) WE ARE TO BLAME FOR THE CURRENT STATE OF EVE. And removing alts is NOT the answer. And I will admit sometimes I really hate alts but take the good with the bad cause you can't have everything.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:23:00 - [84] I dont usually post just to insult someone, but in this case, I will make na exception. Your an idiot, and obviously to poor to afford a second account.
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.10.03 16:32:00 - [85] It would make Eve far more interesting. But.. -CCP make alot of money from multiple accounts. -The entire game is DESIGNED on PURPOSE for needing more than 1 account in a great number of situations. -Even if they wanted to change it, they could never enforce it. So stop suggesting it already. It's never going to happen.
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:25:00 - [86] Originally by: Metaller Originally by: Vabjekf Alts are what kills low sec. Alts are what destroys pvp. Alts are what screw up politics. you have no idea! Ever tried living as -5.0 sec status in low sec? Alts are your only way to get supplies into low sec. And you need alot of supplies for low sec if you do pvp. Low sec would be much emptier if those alts werent there. You are not looking at the big picture. With out alts you would not need to leave low sec for supplies, because there would be heavy trade all through every sec. All you would have to do in low sec is pay a very small mark up. To everyone else. So far every other argument i have seen against no alts is just citing another broken part of the game as being 'less broken' with alts. Thats not a good argument
Vabjekf	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:35:00 - [87] Originally by: Kage Psychodin Vabjekf, don't evade my second question. Any form of PvP costs you something. even if its the simple act of running to your body, and then possibly dying again before you had a chance.(time) Being camped is being camped. it causes a loss of time, and boredom. In WoW I can log off and play a different character. I should be able to do the same here as I do. That is one of the benefits of playing a console or computer game. (at least a benefit I feel exists and SHOULD exist. No, the problem here is not 'not being able to log onto another character when you get gamped', its 'getting camped' in the first place. Not only does it mess you up, having you unable to undock (or get your body), which itself is a reason to eliminate it from the game, it also wastes the time of the people bothering to camp you if you run off to another character. So everybody loses! Remove such forms of camping=p That is the solution. Quote: third question - I don't feel those mechanics are broken at all. Quite a few are unfair, broken balance wise in case of ship power and such, perhaps. (it is solely up to CCP though) So they are not broken, just unfair and broken in terms of balance. right.... Quote: However, given the power of Two offers, its not so much that "No alts one account" is really even a valid way to approach the problem. Just look at the offer. CCP really DID design mechanics and perhaps even alt scouting, and the ability to hide and cook level 4s for a hundred mil a day in NPC corps as their actual intent. Thet are the sole arbiters on it, and given this is a game, its not erm...fallacious? for them to think and decree so. They did not design this, they facilitate it because it makes them more money. They know people want alts so they make these offers to try and get people to go ahead and bite already and get some. Again, we are discussing how eve would be better with no alts, not whether or not ccp would ever do it (or even if it would be possible to implement at this point in the game ((probably not)valid lisp code!)). Much in the same way gates themselves are a bad idea, and the game would have been better off if gates were not a part of it. The hardware limitations make this an impossibility however. That does not prevent us from looking at gates and realizing how stupid they are. But gates had to exist, so the game was designed around them. If i would say 'remove gates!' people would all think on the small scale, about how that would remove gate camping zomg. Some people would like that, most probably would not, but both are missing that with out gates the entire mechanics of the game would be different and you would not need gate camping to pewpew people or to defend areas, because with out gates the game would have been designed to work with out gates! ^___^ Think about the impossible, because one day it may no longer be impossible but you will be unable to even recognize its possibility because you are so conditioned to dismissing it.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.03 17:35:00 - [88] The OP is correct, 1 character per player only would have made Eve a better game. That Eve would have become a very different Eve though, and Eve as it is now just wouldn't be suited to such a restriction. Shame really, but I think this idea is going to remain a dream. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Jobby Minmatar UNITED STAR SYNDICATE R-I-P	Posted - 2008.10.03 19:49:00 - [89] Originally by: Zeba Die. Seconded. And hurry, you're wasting valuable oxygen. TIA.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.10.03 20:43:00 - [90] No alts would overall probably improve EVE, make it a far more interesting game. But it would also make it too time consuming to do any meaningful amount of anything in, so I'd quit. - DesuSigs



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