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making isk Mission running v mining so imbalanced.

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Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:03:00 - [1] - Quote so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended?
Nedes Betternaem Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:07:00 - [2] - Quote Silly OP, mining is for bots.
Tobiaz Spacerats 90	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:09:00 - [3] - Quote Nedes Betternaem wrote: Silly OP, mining is for bots. So is running missions. Check the slides from fanfest, mining and mission running are just as heavily botted. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures!
Jake Warbird Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 183	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:15:00 - [4] - Quote More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair.
ACE McFACE Acetech Systems 599	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:36:00 - [5] - Quote This isnt about the goon's massive failure! i want my money back! Real men wear goggles and a Navy shirt!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate 457	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:37:00 - [6] - Quote Jake Warbird wrote: More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. By the time you can run lvl 4s in a tengu, they are shooting fluffy kittens.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:39:00 - [7] - Quote Jake Warbird wrote: More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. Thier is no chance of loseing a ship none at all. Im fine with low sec missions making isk as thier is reel risk. And trust me you have more chance of having your hulk ganked by players in high sec, than a few rats killing your mission runner unless your ******** and newb.
Markus Reese Debitum Naturae ROMANIAN-LEGION 73	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:44:00 - [8] - Quote The core of the issue is that mission running isn't affected by supply and demand. The mass alt mining has a majority that doesn't worry about isk per hour, but just the bot ATM. Result is all things industry related drop below what is considered a reasonable isk/hour line.
knobber Jobbler 141	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:47:00 - [9] - Quote Do incursions instead. Less risk, much more reward.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:52:00 - [10] - Quote in that case i demand that all bots be band.. here is how you do it CPP destroy all miners in space twice a week for a few months. Refund every one that opens i ticket within 1 hour. Ban every one els.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 1320	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:53:00 - [11] - Quote Tobiaz wrote: Nedes Betternaem wrote: Silly OP, mining is for bots. So is running missions. Check the slides from fanfest, mining and mission running are just as heavily botted. So is blobbing and gate camping and POS bashing
Nedes Betternaem Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 78	Posted - 2012.03.30 05:59:00 - [12] - Quote Asuka Solo wrote: Tobiaz wrote: Nedes Betternaem wrote: Silly OP, mining is for bots. So is running missions. Check the slides from fanfest, mining and mission running are just as heavily botted. So is blobbing and gate camping and POS bashing In actuality, everything is botted. I am relatively sure that the only person who plays eve and is not a bot is the OP. Most forum posters are actually bots as well.
Shadowsword The Scope Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:04:00 - [13] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Jake Warbird wrote: More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. Thier is no chance of loseing a ship none at all. Im fine with low sec missions making isk as thier is reel risk. And trust me you have more chance of having your hulk ganked by players in high sec, than a few rats killing your mission runner unless your ******** and newb. Hostile player activity is not to be taken into acount when balancing pve income sources. First because it's not relevant when in the same "safe" area, second because it isn't a fixed data and can change a lot over time. And mission runners get ganked on a regular basis, too. On top of that, mission running take more SP, more initial investment (a faction BS cost a ton more than a Hulk), some prior mission running experience, and require you to actually pay attention at what happens. (Even if the tengu is broken, yes. you can blame overpowered complex shield mods and oversized extenders).
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:07:00 - [14] - Quote Nedes Betternaem wrote: Asuka Solo wrote: Tobiaz wrote: Nedes Betternaem wrote: Silly OP, mining is for bots. So is running missions. Check the slides from fanfest, mining and mission running are just as heavily botted. So is blobbing and gate camping and POS bashing In actuality, everything is botted. I am relatively sure that the only person who plays eve and is not a bot is the OP. Most forum posters are actually bots as well. Dont say that im already paranoid to the point thinking my real life is full of acters like the tuman show. Last thing i need my hobbie is be me 40k bots. On the other hand.. is thier a probeing bot, im so bad at it id love to have a bot map out a system for me.
Raiykjab Federal Navy Academy 17	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:09:00 - [15] - Quote Posting in the rare non Mittani related thread on the forum. And see my sig. Eve has miners?!
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:10:00 - [16] - Quote Shadowsword wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: Jake Warbird wrote: More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. Thier is no chance of loseing a ship none at all. Im fine with low sec missions making isk as thier is reel risk. And trust me you have more chance of having your hulk ganked by players in high sec, than a few rats killing your mission runner unless your ******** and newb. Hostile player activity is not to be taken into acount when balancing pve income sources. First because it's not relevant when in the same "safe" area, second because it isn't a fixed data and can change a lot over time. And mission runners get ganked on a regular basis, too. On top of that, mission running take more SP, more initial investment (a faction BS cost a ton more than a Hulk), some prior mission running experience, and require you to actually pay attention at what happens. (Even if the tengu is broken, yes. you can blame overpowered complex shield mods and oversized extenders). so training to a raven and a noctis alt. takes more isk and time than a hulk and orca alt? im not to sure on that buddy.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:16:00 - [17] - Quote Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking.
Raiykjab Federal Navy Academy 17	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:21:00 - [18] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. Man really, join the witch hunt, the current mining system must die. If you want to kill a witch you must ignore her, forget her. If you want to fix mining, don't mine until CCP decide it's time to fix it. Eve has miners?!
Roime Shiva Furnace 388	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:24:00 - [19] - Quote Mineral prices might go up when the botted mineral supply from Drone Regios ends. Also Inferno might bring enough incentives for large conflicts to bump up the demand. Mine now, sell later! I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:27:00 - [20] - Quote Raiykjab wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. Man really, join the witch hunt, the current mining system must die. If you want to kill a witch you must ignore her, forget her. If you want to fix mining, don't mine until CCP decide it's time to fix it. I would do that. But the real miners quiting will not stop all the botters- so as far as ccp would know thier are 20k happy miner's so happy that they mine 20 hours a day. I cant belive that ccp are unaware of who the botters are. I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:29:00 - [21] - Quote Roime wrote: Mineral prices might go up when the botted mineral supply from Drone Regios ends. Also Inferno might bring enough incentives for large conflicts to bump up the demand. Mine now, sell later! I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec. O god moving level 4s to low sec.. that would work. but i bet the people running level 4s for years would quit :-). Its got my vote anyway.
Joseph Sulaco Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 20	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:30:00 - [22] - Quote Raiykjab wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. Man really, join the witch hunt, the current mining system must die. If you want to kill a witch you must ignore her, forget her. If you want to fix mining, don't mine until CCP decide it's time to fix it. That won't fix anything. If people stop mining, the market will shift to reflect this. Bots will then pick up the slack and now we are back to were we actually are now. The only people who aren't bots that mine don't do it for money, they do it to relax or watch a movie. If you want to make a difference get involved with the CSM, go to Fanfest, go to gaming conventions, and bring your concerns directly to CCP.
DarthNefarius Ssssansha'S Deathhead Einsatzgruppen 111	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:33:00 - [23] - Quote Umlike missions or mining INCURSIONS can't be botted WHY ARE INCURSIONS getting the nerf bat before boutnies are CCP... do you like botters so much more then Incursion runners? And Caesar's spirit, raging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war,That this foul deed... -á
Nedes Betternaem Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 79	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:35:00 - [24] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's. Yep, you also have to realize that banning all these bots will make everything more expensive in game. Also CCP realizes that no one in their right mind would mine as a primary profession for more than a few weeks unless it is an alt character that they mostly afk mine with or its botted.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:36:00 - [25] - Quote Joseph Sulaco wrote: Raiykjab wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. Man really, join the witch hunt, the current mining system must die. If you want to kill a witch you must ignore her, forget her. If you want to fix mining, don't mine until CCP decide it's time to fix it. That won't fix anything. If people stop mining, the market will shift to reflect this. Bots will then pick up the slack and now we are back to were we actually are now. The only people who aren't bots that mine don't do it for money, they do it to relax or watch a movie. If you want to make a difference get involved with the CSM, go to Fanfest, go to gaming conventions, and bring your concerns directly to CCP. Yeah because the CSM are great lol. Pahaps the CSM should do thier job and spend a few hours a day reading these threads and pass the valid ones onto ccp? Fire every one on the csm or just stop the csm, and hire some comunity managers.
Raiykjab Federal Navy Academy 17	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:40:00 - [26] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: I would do that. But the real miners quiting will not stop all the botters- so as far as ccp would know thier are 20k happy miner's so happy that they mine 20 hours a day. I cant belive that ccp are unaware of who the botters are. I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's. Yeah, so at some point miner = botter = good to gank Make mining and miners look like ****, make them eat dust, gank them, bully them. Then rejoice as CCP announce the long awaited mining overhaul. It's an attrition war, but as long as people "just do it", it gonna work, and it already started. Eve has miners?!
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:41:00 - [27] - Quote Nedes Betternaem wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's. Yep, you also have to realize that banning all these bots will make everything more expensive in game. Also CCP realizes that no one in their right mind would mine as a primary profession for more than a few weeks unless it is an alt character that they mostly afk mine with or its botted. Then you sir are condoneing bots in order to keep your ships and mods cheap. What about the real miners every thing looks expensive because we cant make as much money as anyone els.. To put it into perspective, we make 45% less than a mission runner, so imagine if everything you had to buy was 45% more expensive, thats how we feel now.
Nedes Betternaem Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 80	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:43:00 - [28] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Nedes Betternaem wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's. Yep, you also have to realize that banning all these bots will make everything more expensive in game. Also CCP realizes that no one in their right mind would mine as a primary profession for more than a few weeks unless it is an alt character that they mostly afk mine with or its botted. Then you sir are condoneing bots in order to keep your ships and mods cheap. What about the real miners every thing looks expensive because we cant make as much money as anyone els.. To put it into perspective, we make 45% less than a mission runner, so imagine if everything you had to buy was 45% more expensive, thats how we feel now. Oh no no, I am not defending botting at all... I hate bots. I am just saying CCP does have its reasons that they are hesitant to ban bots. And also some very powerful eve alliances use bots to fuel their nullsec functions (I will not name names, but I am relatively sure that if you have heard of them, they use bots or at least knowingly tolerate them)
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:51:00 - [29] - Quote Nedes Betternaem wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: Nedes Betternaem wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: I have to come to the conclusion that they dont care as they still get the money and do not want to lose subscriber's. Yep, you also have to realize that banning all these bots will make everything more expensive in game. Also CCP realizes that no one in their right mind would mine as a primary profession for more than a few weeks unless it is an alt character that they mostly afk mine with or its botted. Then you sir are condoneing bots in order to keep your ships and mods cheap. What about the real miners every thing looks expensive because we cant make as much money as anyone els.. To put it into perspective, we make 45% less than a mission runner, so imagine if everything you had to buy was 45% more expensive, thats how we feel now. Oh no no, I am not defending botting at all... I hate bots. I am just saying CCP does have its reasons that they are hesitant to ban bots. And also some very powerful eve alliances use bots to fuel their nullsec functions (I will not name names, but I am relatively sure that if you have heard of them, they use bots or at least knowingly tolerate them.... and CCP is a little too friendly to many of these alliances) Also you are correct, bots do make mining for the real miners that are bots far less profitable. If mining was as profitable as running missions I would mine as much as I run missions. Since its such a massive loss to mine I don't bother with it anymore. Just say it.. goonswarm are mine bots. i knew it. Thier is NO excuse not to ban all of them. Let the economey sort its self out afterwards and tweak where needed but you can balance untill the bots are gone.
Reaver Glitterstim Resurrected Darkness 88	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:53:00 - [30] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Is this working as intended? No, it isn't. CCP has for a long time been noting that mineral prices are getting out of hand. More recently, it has come to their attention that the problem is "gunmining" or that more than half of the minerals in EVE come from shooting guns (drone compounds and tech 1 modules mostly) vs. less than half from mining. That means that the popularity of mining vs. mission-running are not significant factors in their payout. Expect a fix soon(tm)...but I'm betting they do something about it as early as Inferno. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens
Thabiso Merchants of the Golden Goose 4	Posted - 2012.03.30 06:59:00 - [31] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? What kind of slow ass mission running are you up to? A good farmer with noctis support should pull 60-100m depending on how "lucky" he is - back in the day when I did mission running (well yesterday, we just moved to WH space; YAY!) I was running on 6 agents, usually farming on 4 of them - peak would be around the 100m mark and on bad days around 50m mark per hour. A good mining op should max around 20m; in other words, I'd expected mission running to pull in 3-5 times more than your mining. And yes, it does make sense - a totally pimped out mission runner can easily cost 3-4 billion isk (think officer and faction modules) and running at risk; a mining op is only in for about a billion and the risk is almost zero.
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:15:00 - [32] - Quote Thabiso wrote: Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? What kind of slow ass mission running are you up to? A good farmer with noctis support should pull 60-100m depending on how "lucky" he is - back in the day when I did mission running (well yesterday, we just moved to WH space; YAY!) I was running on 6 agents, usually farming on 4 of them - peak would be around the 100m mark and on bad days around 50m mark per hour. A good mining op should max around 20m; in other words, I'd expected mission running to pull in 3-5 times more than your mining. And yes, it does make sense - a totally pimped out mission runner can easily cost 3-4 billion isk (think officer and faction modules) and running at risk; a mining op is only in for about a billion and the risk is almost zero. You sir are a idiot. THERE IS NO RISK RUNNING LEVEL 4s none at ALL you cant die in a level 4 mission, thier is more chance of geting your hulk ganked in a high sec belt than dieing in a level 4 mission. Thier is zero risk and you dont need those faction mods you just need to know what your doing.
St Mio Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 584	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:18:00 - [33] - Quote Some things in EVE make more money than other things.
Roime Shiva Furnace 388	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:20:00 - [34] - Quote Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant. So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is: - move L4 missions to lowsec - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low - nerf module drops from missions - nerf reprossing yield severely, like 50% (this not only makes mining more lucrative, but also forces null industrials to rethink their processes - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec - revamp mission/anom/plex NPC AI, remove their damage type restrictions and make all spawns random and with huge variance - multiply faction NPC numbers in hisec, add them to low as well and give them the ability to pod outlaws - give NPCs cap and other normal player ship properties - introduce ninja mining ships - increase jump freighter fuel costs (a lot) - buff black ops battleships Then to counter mining bots: - apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes
Abim Starkiller Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:32:00 - [35] - Quote Roime wrote: Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant. So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is: - move L4 missions to lowsec - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low - nerf module drops from missions - nerf reprossing yield severely, like 50% (this not only makes mining more lucrative, but also forces null industrials to rethink their processes - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec - revamp mission/anom/plex NPC AI, remove their damage type restrictions and make all spawns random and with huge variance - multiply faction NPC numbers in hisec, add them to low as well and give them the ability to pod outlaws - give NPCs cap and other normal player ship properties - introduce ninja mining ships - increase jump freighter fuel costs (a lot) - buff black ops battleships Then to counter mining bots: - apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes sounds good to me... run for csm ill vote for you.
Roime Shiva Furnace 389	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:45:00 - [36] - Quote Thanks, but unfortunately those changes are way too big to through... but one can dream. I personally think hisec in it's current state was a huge mistake, that is now a burden for development of the game. We have too many people who are stuck with the idea of separate "PVE" and "PVP", grasp on false ideas of "opting out" and "consensual". That line of thinking comes mostly from other games I guess, where different servers have different rules. Another part of the problem is the stupid NPC AI and properties, which results in people fitting differently for shooting red crosses, and thus becoming weak against human opponents. Transition to lowsec would be much easier if you would fly a real combat ship in to NPCing as well. We have only one server. There needs to be a starter zone where you can accommodate to the harsh universe, skill up and make contacts, but after that people should be encouraged to dive into the deep end.
BeforetheStorm90 The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis 15	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:45:00 - [37] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. An activity that requires a very small amount of attention receives a small amount of isk. An activity that requires a more moderate amount of attention receives a more moderate amount of isk. Seems like it's balanced to me.
Kalathia Eginald Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 23	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:52:00 - [38] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Lets face it mining in with perfect skills. should make as much isk as mission running with perfect mission skills. And fleet mining should make as much isk as incursions... its called balance. Dont blame the bots.. i blame ccp for not clamping down harder. IP BAN ALL BOTS. how can thier be so many bots? fire the dude incharge of baning bots he is slacking. That's right as IPs never change. Oh sorry they do that is why IP bans are useless. The only thing that could possibly work, and that's at a stretch, would be IP range bans which then becomes collective punishment which is a disgusting way to act. Even then there are proxies. The majority of domestic customers have dynamic IPs, it's cheaper I can have a static IP if I want for an extra -ú5 a month. If I was banned by IP I just turn of my router wait 15 minutes turn it back on a hey presto new IP. Even if I don't turn of the router my ISP reesets it every couple of weeks automatically. Even with a "static" IP all I would have to do is pay my provider for a new one. Then whoever gets my old one is banned for doing nothing. Now how would you feel if that person was you? Can you just see the threads of people who can't log on because the IP they got was banned? As to how there an be so many it's easy. Lazy cheating scum. They are the bane of every game with an economy, yes even Runescape has them and that is a basic entry level MMO. Different things make different amounts of currency, it is just the way it is.
TheBlueMonkey Natural Progression 112	Posted - 2012.03.30 07:59:00 - [39] - Quote If everyone did more stuff that'll involve losing ships then mining would make more money. I've watched this since incursions started and there's been a worrying rate of inflation because people get into their pimped out incursion ship and never lose it and the watch their wallets get fatter and fatter. If you're sitting on more than a billion and you're not saving for something specific, you're doing eve wrong.
Chokichi Ozuwara Lucky Dragon Convenience 57	Posted - 2012.03.30 08:00:00 - [40] - Quote Somehow this must all be Chribba's fault. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Shadowsword The Scope Gallente Federation 116	Posted - 2012.03.30 08:03:00 - [41] - Quote Roime wrote: Exactly, it's terribly misbalanced - under no circumstances should hisec PVE yield that much steady isk. That is why the mission bots run rampant. The mission bots would just switch to lv3 missions. Or even more mining bots. Quote: So my total shakeup solution for EVE Online - the spaceships game is: - move L4 missions to lowsec Because making CCP lose a large number of subs when they have financing problems is a good idea. Quote: - make all 0.5 systems 0.4 and increase the amount of gates from hi to low Yeah, let's nerf logistics, they're not enough of a chore already. I'm not even sure it's possible to go from Amarr to Jita without going throught a 0.5. Quote: - disable the possibility to anchor control towers in hisec Which will help the shortage of R&D slots a ton. Overall, your suggestions look like you want ot catter only to YOUR vision of what Eve should be, while not thinking a second about the after-effects they would cause. This is a child's approach to balancing. Quote: Then to counter mining bots: - apply PI scanning interface to asteroids (visual scanning of hotspots) - make the asteroid rotate, so that you need to adjust the mining point once in a while, or when the spot depletes That might counter them a whole week. Then they'd find a way. Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players.
Marduk Nibiru Physical Chaos 138	Posted - 2012.03.30 08:04:00 - [42] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? I think you can make more blitzing.
BeforetheStorm90 The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis 15	Posted - 2012.03.30 08:09:00 - [43] - Quote Shadowsword wrote: Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players. I'm going to say that that sounds very much like a discredit to the game's pvp then a credit to the bot makers.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 2939	Posted - 2012.03.30 08:40:00 - [44] - Quote Chokichi Ozuwara wrote: Somehow this must all be Chribba's fault. I'm so fat I affect the gravity of solar systems making your ships navigation system go weird in turn making you lost in space. /c GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Follow me on Twitter @Chribba

Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns 59	Posted - 2012.03.30 09:14:00 - [45] - Quote lol lvl4 missions
TheBlueMonkey Natural Progression 112	Posted - 2012.03.30 09:30:00 - [46] - Quote I still think there's a total imballance to the isk I can make from spinning my ship
Roime Shiva Furnace 390	Posted - 2012.03.30 09:57:00 - [47] - Quote Shadowsword wrote: Overall, your suggestions look like you want ot catter only to YOUR vision of what Eve should be, while not thinking a second about the after-effects they would cause. I completely agree with the first part, if it wouldn't be MY vision, why would I speak for it? But of course I have thought about the consequences, they obviously are the reason to make these changes. Whether or not you you like them is purely subjective. However, I think my vision is very close to the basic concept of EVE: Quote: The Sandbox is the game world of EVE combined with the persistent actions of thousands upon thousands of players who interact with one another in a single-server environment. Your actions in the Sandbox can lead to the destruction of starships, the creation of a thriving corporation or the doom of an empire. Every action taken by every player affects the state of the Sandbox, and through it those actions affect every other player. The web of action and reaction in EVE leads to emergent gameplay where a single shot, business deal or even just a word can determine the destiny of thousands. Do you notice how badly mission-running conflicts with the idea of sandbox? Completing missions does not have persistent effects on the universe, or any other player. It only changes the state of the mission runner in relation to NPC entities via standings, and if you don't sell the mission loot or LP store items, but keep them or reprocess and manufacture ammunition or ships for your own use out of them, you never ever fleetingly touch the sandbox. It's sad that this is possible. You can run the same missions over and over and over and over again and behold! Worlds Collide again! What's wrong with the Damsel, she never learns? And thousands of others saved the same damn Damsel already tonight. This is not part of a persistent world. Quote: This is a child's approach to balancing. Where did I mention balancing? Quote: That might counter them a whole week. Then they'd find a way. Don't underestimate bot makers, in other games you have bots that pvp better than regular players. There are no absolute preventive measures against the human mind, that is why we dominate other species- we innovate, adapt and create without the need to wait for natural selection happening over generations. My suggestion could only make screen-scraping bots more complicated to get running optimally, why not make them work for it? Code-injected bots it obviously can't counter, but most importantly it would make mining more fun and interesting to human players- maybe this decreases the incentive to bot? My view is that the greatest reward that a sandbox can offer is sense of achievement of creating something out of nothing, by yourself. This includes a huge variety of both direct game-mechanic related things, but also the social aspects, and innovation- winning the mechanics with your brain... and the destruction of things other people create. I don't feel that EVE needs to cater to people unwilling to step into the sandbox. These people seem to be reliant on devs to continuously provide them with new, shiny content, while they should be 100% protected from whole open-world universe. While those who embrace the sandbox create content for themselves and others, and only wish for the devs to finetune the existing mechanics.
Rico Minali Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension 471	Posted - 2012.03.30 10:01:00 - [48] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? I agree 100% Drop hisec mission running rewards by 45%. While we are at it, drop hisec incursions by at least the same amount. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Akrasjel Lanate Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance 675	Posted - 2012.03.30 10:24:00 - [49] - Quote Ban all bot ant the prices will go up, like they are now.
Arrs Grazznic Poena Executive Solutions 35	Posted - 2012.03.30 10:36:00 - [50] - Quote Roime wrote: I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec. And I know that this statement is wrong!
Roime Shiva Furnace 390	Posted - 2012.03.30 10:48:00 - [51] - Quote Arrs Grazznic wrote: Roime wrote: I think everybody agrees that L4 missions need to move to lowsec. And I know that this statement is wrong! Well, you are correct, but wouldn't you agree that it is more provocative than "there is some controversy regarding the current location of level 4 missions"
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE 512	Posted - 2012.03.30 11:02:00 - [52] - Quote Mining needs love, but what it doesn't need is: a) higher income in highsec - that's the 'noob starting area' and trade-/logistic zone, or b) better mining vessels - they're already really powerful. The silly part is that people can do 'endgame' isk in a 'safe' environment. Make it appealing to mine in null, and let the highsec income be a small portion of similar level NPCing in null, that's it. shiptoastin' liek a baws
Roime Shiva Furnace 390	Posted - 2012.03.30 11:21:00 - [53] - Quote I seem to have left these unanswered: Shadowsword wrote: The mission bots would just switch to lv3 missions. Or even more mining bots. Level 3s should be balanced so that it's impossible to generate enough isk for a PLEX in a month then. Suicide gankers can keep the mining bot issue from getting out of hand :) Quote: Because making CCP lose a large number of subs when they have financing problems is a good idea. I doubt it would cause mass unsubs. Those who love EVE would adapt, don't worry. And CCP is doing fine financially according to the latest publication on that matter: http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/ Quote: Yeah, let's nerf logistics, they're not enough of a chore already. I'm not even sure it's possible to go from Amarr to Jita without going throught a 0.5. Why is going through 0.4 a problem for you? We get only random direct access to hisec, and handle everyday logistics via lowsec. Quote: Which will help the shortage of R&D slots a ton. What shortage? There are free slots in lowsec stations all the time. That's where I did my research before we anchored a lab in our pos. Attitude, that could be your problem.
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 457	Posted - 2012.03.30 11:53:00 - [54] - Quote Roime wrote: I seem to have left these unanswered: I doubt it would cause mass unsubs. Those who love EVE would adapt, don't worry. And CCP is doing fine financially according to the latest publication on that matter: http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/ Those who loved EvE before hi sec and its facilities were all of 5k concurrent players. I am sure CCP will definitely want to revert back there. Roime wrote: Why is going through 0.4 a problem for you? We get only random direct access to hisec, and handle everyday logistics via lowsec. Why is missioning a problem for you? Roime wrote: What shortage? There are free slots in lowsec stations all the time. That's where I did my research before we anchored a lab in our pos. I live across high and low sec and both have from 10 (low sec) to 30+ days queue in their stations. Not everybody live in the butth0le of the universe, low sec included. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
DonHel Aliastra Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:02:00 - [55] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? sounds like it is working to me. Rats and missions have a set amount of isk on them, minerals rise and fall to the players demand. Also sounds to me like you were probably clearing a hi sec belt, of course it's going to suck... get a mining fleet in a wormhole or hook up wih a 0.0 corp wih mining ops... you will see a major jump in that. Back when I used to mine null for a ship builder with one of my alts I was making a killing hitting the abc ores
TheBlueMonkey Natural Progression 113	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:15:00 - [56] - Quote Bots are bad.... and clearly spending 120mil for a megathron is good -¼-¼
Roime Shiva Furnace 391	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:19:00 - [57] - Quote Why so aggressive? Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Those who loved EvE before hi sec and its facilities were all of 5k concurrent players. I am sure CCP will definitely want to revert back there. You are implying that hisec has caused the popularity, which I don't think you can prove in any way. Quote: Why is missioning a problem for you? I tried to make my view very clear in the previous post- it's the only part of EVE completely detached from the rest of the sandbox. It's not a major personal problem for me. Missions and the culture born around them seem to create tensions among the player base. Quote: I live across high and low sec and both have from 10 (low sec) to 30+ days queue in their stations. Not everybody live in the butth0le of the universe, low sec included. That would imply that most people don't care for the queues, and can plan their operations around the limitations of the environment. Or just build a POS and behold, free slots. But thanks for your input, very valuable indeed.
Keen Fallsword The Scope Gallente Federation 54	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:23:00 - [58] - Quote Hmm. You are able to mine in this game ? I didn't know... But seriously CCP broke this game so badly that it is as it is - won't be better.. So yeah OP. In some point in history CCP started to be PVP based coz its cheaper to make few ships for few Euros then add PVE content..
Anthemius Heb Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 16	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:24:00 - [59] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: Jake Warbird wrote: More isk for things that shoot back. Seems fair. Thier is no chance of loseing a ship none at all. Im fine with low sec missions making isk as thier is reel risk. And trust me you have more chance of having your hulk ganked by players in high sec, than a few rats killing your mission runner unless your ******** and newb. Sorry, we all pay the same price to play the game. Your style of play is not more important than anybody elses. You are not superior. Low sec mission running is nonsensical as missions have to be run in a PvE fit ship and the gankers will no doubt be using PvP fit ships so you're giving yourself a death sentence. Unless of course you think people are going to pay for an escort of PvP ships to watch over them as they run missions, therefore reducing the income made from said missions to pay for protection. It just isn't going to happen. Sorry. People like to play the game running missions, occasional mining and hauling and maybe a little PvP thrown in sometimes. Not everybody wants to PvP all the time. If you don't like that then I'm afraid you're gonna have to just suck it up and carry on playing or find another game.
Josefius 13th Tribe of Kobol Expeditionary 58	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:25:00 - [60] - Quote Level V Mining missions unbalanced? I never ran those. You have enemies? Good, that means you stood up for something, sometime in your life. -Winston Churchill
Citizen Smif Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 88	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:34:00 - [61] - Quote Nedes Betternaem wrote: Most forum posters are actually bots as well. Confirmed.
Jessie-A Tassik Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 36	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:46:00 - [62] - Quote It's a "sandbox" where you can't War Dec the most poweful Alliances without playing billions of ISK per week. Because then Goonies engage in "meta-game" play to stop that. That's the new phrase for running like a whiny girl to Daddie CCP and saying "the Bad Man was mean to me! Stop Him!" CCP had choices to make. They could do what they want, or have a million subs. They chose to do what they want. At least they didn't let one man, the Gersh, destroy their game like he destroyed War. So there is that. Not as stupid as Trion. It's still juvenile.
Shadowsword The Scope Gallente Federation 117	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:48:00 - [63] - Quote Roime wrote: Level 3s should be balanced so that it's impossible to generate enough isk for a PLEX in a month then. Suicide gankers can keep the mining bot issue from getting out of hand : If lv3 become unprofitable for a bot, then they become utterly worthless for new players. Let's take your argument and say that a bot runing lv 3 23hours a day for a month can't win enough for a 550M Plex. That means an income caped at less than 800k/hour, and that when you have well fitted ship. Say 600k/hour for the newbie with his T1 cruiser and meta3 mods. That's probably even less than lv2 Quote: I doubt it would cause mass unsubs. Those who love EVE would adapt, don't worry. And CCP is doing fine financially according to the latest publication on that matter: http://techcrunch.com/2012/02/21/eve-online-saw-66m-in-revenue-last-year-mulls-ipo/ CCP isn't only doing EVE, and Dust and WoD aren't income sources yet If it was not going to cause mass unsubs, CCP would already have done it. The typical player doesn't love EVE, what he loves is the activities he does in the game. Second, a lot of us have multiple accounts. I have one whose sole purpose is to be an income source that can't be disrupted by wars or 0.0 situation. If lv4 where moved in low-sec, I'd hit the unsub button on that account->less money for CCP. Multiply my case by many thousands. And then add the serious mission-runners. If the vast majority of Eve's population is concentrated in high-sec, there is a reason. Bottom line, you absolutely CAN'T force somone who doesn't want to play with the pressure of pvp risk to move into low-sec. The "move L4 into low-sec" has been around for litteraly years. CCP has made a tentative with lv5 low-sec only missions. Has this caused a massive abandon of high-sec lv4? Hell no. Lv5 is among the top of the "least used" features And you want to force them to, or accept a income reduction of over 90%? They are so going to unsub, it it be ugly. If you wish to make suggestions CCP might actually listen to, you need to drop your attitude of trying to force high-sec dwellers to conform to your personnal vision of what they should be doing, and instead try to find out how to conform your objectives with what they want.
Killer Gandry V I R I I Ineluctable. 187	Posted - 2012.03.30 13:51:00 - [64] - Quote I have had a friend of mine take a look at some stats and the forums here. He saw that mining is clearly more dangerous than lvl 4 missions. Therefor he couldn't understand why mining had way less of a pay out. He can't even understand why people want to mine since next to the higher risk of being ganked and thus losing a very expensive ship would be preffered over the easier way of making an income by shooting rats. The only way to have a better chance as a miner to survive a suicide gank is by upping the tank a lot, thus decreasing the Isk income a lot more. So how ******** is that?
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 507	Posted - 2012.03.30 14:27:00 - [65] - Quote OP is a whining idiot. OP: WHA WHA ITS NOT FAIR! Lightbulb goes off in OP's head. OP: Wait! Mission make more isk? Holy crap, why don't I actually do that instead!?!?!?!? Bolded for emphasis. Stop ***** mining, because it is *** terribad and should be removed from the game if left in its current form. You make more isk running missions, then run missions. Its *** obvious! You know why mining is dangerous? 1. Zero *** risk to mine rocks, your biggest NPC foe is 7,000k isk newb frigates. NPC battle ships actually hit harder, but you have to be way smarter to keep the triggers in check and watch for the scrammers. In a hulk....activate miners...release drones...Zzzzz....Zzzzz....Zzzzz...ZERO *** EFFORT AS YOUR CARGO HOLD FILLS. 2. ** *** tank. Remove Hulks and Rettys as they are so pointless to fly, ships that require upwards of 4 months to fly adequately that are nothing more then that stupid goat in the movie Jurassic Park, before its eating by the T-rex (Hint: You train to be a target, see #3) 3. Players. Zero absolute *** risk to themselves from number 2. Hulks die fast and easy, why else do you think they are targeted so much? Besides the Butthurt about it and Oral stimulation you give towards the guy, hulk bashing is far to profitable because you can kill them with *** T1 ships. Proft = loss for you. Lets not forget, not only does their pod if -5 or more totatlly safe in highsec until they board a ship in a safe spot, but sec status is a ***** joke because thats the only penalty they face (after calculating the loss and the profit they will make from it). Make sec status actually mean something (like NPC pod you ass, taxes go up as you pay a premium to play bad ass) or buff the **** out of the hulk or zero loot drop with no salvage from the hulk (it is a pure isk sink, generating only KMs as the aggressor also loses out on everything and their ship to CONCORD_....then the ganking will happen less often. 4. You make more isk in nullsec then highsec, by mining those higher yield rocks. No different then making more isk in WH, lowsec, or nullsec. The reason Highsec looks so profitable, is because there is less risk. BUT!!!! You only make so much in highsec, you can make so much more anywhere else (factor out the risk...yes bounties and LP are much higher then in highsec WHOA! YOUR MIND IS BLOWN AWAY!!!). Highsec is just easier, because its like a minimum wage job with less hassle.
Aqriue Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 507	Posted - 2012.03.30 14:37:00 - [66] - Quote Roime wrote: - move L4 missions to lowsec You are a ***** idiot. - Select Mission - Fly high valuable ship, die to cheap ass T1 ship piloted by a risk adverse chest thumper that says he is hardcore. - Oh look, its next system (you can be caught at undock, at the gate, and in system) - Oh look, probes. So much for finishing that mission (warp out, cancel mission, take faction hit, wait for dude to leave system, well...bored off my ass log off. As I can't actually do anything for what I am paying for, why should I continue to pay CCP ?) - Active tank = loser, passive buffer tank = winner. Thats just how it is. So, have you yet figured out why highsec is what it is? Highsec is the *** lounge area where you go to relax. ...you do relize that the guys targeting mission ships are not even out to "challenge themselves" and they are just wracking up a game score without actual effort. Ask them to run a foot race against a slow drooling **....they will still get the gold medal in the end as the mouth breather licks the lines off the dirt but in real life these dudes would feel ashamed....in a video game they don't ***** care who they defeat.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate 457	Posted - 2012.03.30 15:26:00 - [67] - Quote This thread encourages ccp to move likely 50% of its PVE content away from 75% of its user base to satisfy 5% of the user base? I have some bridges, please come have a look, they are nice bridges, for sale if you are interested.
Sisohiv Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2012.03.30 15:37:00 - [68] - Quote To further confirm the reality, I don't need to haul bounties or mission payouts to Jita. I need to mission anyway to refine though. I suppose I could do Mining Missions. LOL, yea, that will happen.
Zircon Dasher 102	Posted - 2012.03.30 15:49:00 - [69] - Quote Aqriue wrote: So, have you yet figured out why highsec is what it is? Highsec is the ***** lounge area where you go to relax. ...you do relize that the guys targeting mission ships are not even out to "challenge themselves" and they are just wracking up a game score without actual effort. Ask them to run a foot race against a slow drooling **....they will still get the gold medal in the end as the mouth breather licks the lines off the dirt but in real life these dudes would feel ashamed....in a video game they don't ***** care who they defeat. Congrats on finally figuring out that some people pay for thier game by farming rats. Others pay for thier game by farming mouth breathers.
Marduk Nibiru Physical Chaos 138	Posted - 2012.03.30 15:57:00 - [70] - Quote Aqriue wrote: Roime wrote: - move L4 missions to lowsec You are a ***** idiot. - Select Mission - Fly high valuable ship, die to cheap ass T1 ship piloted by a risk adverse chest thumper that says he is hardcore. You can fly something valuable, but lvl4's are quite easy to do in the most basic fitted BS. With some skill you can do them in BC (in fact most can be slept through in a BC but some of the hard ones require some thinking). Quote: - Oh look, its next system (you can be caught at undock, at the gate, and in system) - Oh look, probes. So much for finishing that mission (warp out, cancel mission, take faction hit, wait for dude to leave system, well...bored off my ass log off. As I can't actually do anything for what I am paying for, why should I continue to pay CCP ?) That's overkill when all you need to do is fit a cloak, warp to a safe and sit. Or warp to safe and log if you don't have a cloak. Come back in a half hour, generally they're gone. Quote:** - Active tank = loser, passive buffer tank = winner. Thats just how it is. Huh?
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 435	Posted - 2012.03.30 16:01:00 - [71] - Quote Abim Starkiller wrote: so ive tested its it. My level 4 mission runnner with noctis support (bountys + selling salvage and loot in jita) - makes 45% more isk per hour than my hulk with orca support (perfect mining an refining skills selling minerals in jita). just to be clear i run level 4 security mission with caldari navy / corp police force. In a max out tengu (little i could do to improve it) I fly a maxed hulk with T2 mining drones, with a orca that has max boosters and the 3 minning links. (nothing i could do to improve it) Is this working as intended? No, your ratio is ******* terrible to be blunt. You should make 4-5x as much missioning. rembourcer ou vous ne pourez plus miner en paix !!-ánous n'aimons pas les pirate !!-áno rembource mi declare war for you
Roime Shiva Furnace 392	Posted - 2012.03.30 16:21:00 - [72] - Quote Aqriue wrote: You are a ******* idiot. I almost feel sorry to rain on your rantparade, but I've been doing my PVE almost exlusively in lowsec and whs since I could fly my first Vexor. @ Shadowsword, I'll get back to your post later, props for keeping the discussion a bit more civilised than our man Aqriue here. Now excuse me, it's playtime and I go either to die in the arms of the fiery T1 pilots, or kill them in my active tanked ship - fly dangerous o7
Rastuasi Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation 3	Posted - 2012.04.12 13:10:00 - [73] - Quote Roime wrote: Thanks, but unfortunately those changes are way too big to through... but one can dream. Another part of the problem is the stupid NPC AI and properties, which results in people fitting differently for shooting red crosses, and thus becoming weak against human opponents. Transition to lowsec would be much easier if you would fly a real combat ship in to NPCing as well. I agree with this, I would love to pvp fit all my ships and go in with autocannons a blazing and so on. Now for missions, I will say that solo tank should be allowed as there are active solo tanks in pvp, but having it so that close range fits are more viable in missions would be nice. Also, to the OP...I see just as many high sec lvl IV ganks as I do miners, so the risk is higher in missions due to the fact you are tanking the rats and THEN the attackers. Ofc missions do require more effort to gank, but saying that there is NO risk is a lie and incorrect statement.

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