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A Jammers worst enemy

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Traumathon	Posted - 2008.10.08 10:09:00 - [1] Hi!! I'm still pretty new at the game but now have a nice stockpile of cash to spend. So..... I am looking for input on some ideas. I was considering seting up a ship to target and take out jammers. Cloak/torps was my first thought but I'm not sure if this would be a vaiable route to take. My main concern is that once i'm found out to be a jam killer I'll become a primary target so need to plan accordingly. I'm fine with something squishy as long as it can get away fast but want as much bang as I can get. Any suggestions on what route I should take on this? Keep in mind that I'm new to the game so I may not be familiar with some abbreviations. If you could please type items so I can easily find them in the market search it would be much appreciated.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.10.08 10:16:00 - [2] Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers. Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers. Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one). Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus. Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon.
asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds	Posted - 2008.10.08 11:28:00 - [3] Edited by: asdfasfasaxfsdgfhds on 08/10/2008 11:29:04 I have flown in 0.0 gangs for 3 years now and for some reason it's happened to fall upon me to target and kill ewar ships that were in the gangs we were going up against. I always fly a raven in gangs and my fits have always beeen critisized by others but my kill death ratio speaks for itself and usually hush's the critics. So with that said, I fit 6 T2 Cruise launchers and use faction or t2 missles. 3 T2 sensor boosters to lock them fast. Now here's the tactical tip, do not warp with your gang, wait about 2-3 seconds and show up last or near last upon arrival of the engagement. By the time you've arrived the hostile ewar ships have usually targeted and started jamming the ships in your gang precieved as the highest threat. That is the critical moment for you. Find them in the overview by ship type, preclick your high slots so all ur missles fly at once and let them loose. Now my cruise missles fly very close to 12k/second with a rate of fire just under 8 seconds, so this is gonna do two things. Smart ewar pilot is going to recieve the first volley and be omgwtf his missles fly fast and warp out thereby taking his ewarness off the field. Less then smart ewar pilot is gonna be liquified once he recieves the second volley and go pop! So you see, you don't need any "special" modules on your ship to be effective against ewar ships. You need tactics and that's it. PS: I never fit eccm unless it's in a differant gang set up, but that's another topic.
Aveng3X Underworld Protection Agency The Crimson Federation	Posted - 2008.10.08 12:11:00 - [4] A dampening Caracal is pretty cool, 2 damps, 2 sensor boosters, afterburner, sorted. You can screw up their lock range and hurt them with long range missile bombardment :) __________________________ Any views expressed are not necessarily the views of my corporation or alliance. YARR!
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2008.10.08 12:11:00 - [5] Stealth bombers can actually be a real pain to jamming ships - they're unlikely to actually kill anything more than a Griffin when solo, but the range and alpha of cruise missiles means that they should at least be able to get decent hits on. As you grow your bomber wing, the alpha gets better (more chance to instapop larger targets such as Falcons) and it's a lot more difficult, and costly even if successful, for the ECM ship to keep all the bombers jammed and thus stay on the battlefield. Of course, you do still have the general issue of justifying the stealth bombers' place in the fleet above other ships (e.g. cruise Raven which in terms of damage is equivalent to two bombers), but they can be nice for newer players without tip-top support skills who would otherwise be very vulnerable in the short-range area, and as a reliable form of supplementary long-range DPS. Asides from this there are lots of discussions on the usefulness of stealth bombers...
The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.08 12:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers. Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers. Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one). Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus. Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon. No..., this can't be true! So many counters to an un-counterable ship? Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly. Thankyou Merin for educating the great unworthy, unwashed and ignorant EvE public. __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Hans Ryko	Posted - 2008.10.08 12:45:00 - [7] +1, back to anti-jammer school falcon nerfers!
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.08 13:12:00 - [8] Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: Merin Ryskin Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers. Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers. Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one). Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus. Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon. No..., this can't be true! So many counters to an un-counterable ship? Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly. Thankyou Merin for educating the great unworthy, unwashed and ignorant EvE public. Lousy effort. 1/10 for trolling. -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!!
darkmancer	Posted - 2008.10.08 13:20:00 - [9] I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Stork DK Minmatar Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2008.10.08 13:24:00 - [10] nanohuginn with 1-2 eccm =] -----

Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.08 14:46:00 - [11] Originally by: darkmancer I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though No, I think stealth bomber alpha maxes out at about 3000 - about 2750 with max skills and 3 damage mods. An unfitted, max skilled falcon has 5500 EHP to EM damage. Two might be able to instapop it; three probably will if it's untanked, four will do it. One will get it to warp out though, and this is probably the best use for stealth bombers. High alpha, high locking range, high sensor strength, high scan resolution, no targeting delay, good range, and relatively low skill requirements compared to Merin's list. A good thing to stick low-skilled players into, that can dish out some reasonable damage, and is unlikely to be called primary so that the player can actually stick around and have some fun - while providing a hard-to-fill and very valuable role in the gang. Merin - good use for stealth bombers, c/d? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.08 15:08:00 - [12] Originally by: darkmancer I suspect a max skilled Amarr stealth bomber may be able to insta pop a falcon, you may need rigs to do it though nah your looking at 3 or 4 vollies. 2 if you have max skills and get lucky.
LadyLubU2 Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.08 15:17:00 - [13] A jammer's worst enemy? That ME! ME YES ME! -- Sig: NARF FALCONS!!! Don't troll those ignorant falcon fanbois. Applebabe
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.08 15:34:00 - [14] Lag. On a more serious note, I'd go with the cruise raven. If you go with armor buffer and ECCM + sensor boosting in the mids, you can be remote repped and be useful both against EW and other long range ships aswell as anything up close. Sure cruises are not the wtfpwnage in dps that torps are but when you can just spam away at any range and do good damage to pretty much all sized ships, who cares. Obviously any gang shouldn't have too many of such ships but one or two and your resistance to ECM is considerably higher. ----------------------
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.08 15:46:00 - [15] Yup, armor tank raven. Our specialty Boink!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:14:00 - [16] Originally by: The Tzar Originally by: Merin Ryskin Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers. Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers. Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one). Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus. Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon. No..., this can't be true! So many counters to an un-counterable ship? Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly. Thankyou Merin for educating the great unworthy, unwashed and ignorant EvE public. Yeah, really great counter. More ECM. --
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:17:00 - [17] ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:26:00 - [18] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/10/2008 16:27:26 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Best overall: ECCM Scorpion with cruise launchers and Caldari racial jammers. Best for making it warp out: ECCM Rook with Caldari racial jammers. Best for killing it: multiple fleet sniper battleships (it will jam you if you only have one). Best for killing it without slowing down your gang with battleships: ECCM Cerberus. Best for taking out ECM while still being amazingly useful when no ECM shows up: Falcon. This. Originally by: The Tzar So many counters to an un-counterable ship? Read this all you pathetic ECM crybabies and sort out your fleets accordingly. You can't be that stupid, can you? 1/10 for the attempt. Trolling shouldn't be that obvious tbh. Originally by: Gypsio III ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field. Valid commentary, the longer fights last the worse ECM is a counter to ECM. Meaning, not very valid commentary for small gangs. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
BiggestT Caldari Space Oddysey Pupule 'Ohana	Posted - 2008.10.08 16:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Gypsio III ECM is not an ideal counter to ECM ships because ECM cannot remove ECM ships from the field. lol exactly, it simply shifts the favour, which is all that really matters Though i dont like hte "fight fire with fire" attitude towards counters, the other counters merin said are probably more the "poper" counters Awesome EVE history Missiles ba-oom!
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:04:00 - [20] I think just a small wing of interceptors (the damage ones: Crusader, Taranis, ...) could be pain for a Falcon. It's a interceptor! Why not intercept something with it My point is: these interceptors don't even have to reach the Falcon. Just it's approach could be disturbing enough ^^ And those interceptors are no wasted fleet role imo. They are useful in many ways - especially after a potential speed change.

The Tzar Malicious Intentions	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Cpt Branko You can't be that stupid, can you? 1/10 for the attempt. Trolling shouldn't be that obvious tbh. ROFL it appears I am 'that stupid' as this wasn't meant as a troll. True a few of the suggestions have been ECM as a counter to ECM but there are many (if undesirable) fight fire with fire scenarios in EvE. Just two ECCM cerbs, two will screw up as many falcons as your opponents can provide. Lock falcon, fire two missiles, rinse repeat. Cerbs are generally not high on the jam list..., not until more people fly like Gypsio and lets hope that day never happens __________________________________________ 'Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear intelligent until they speak' __________________________________________
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:16:00 - [22] Interceptors are trivial to jam. But they can still act as a warp-in point for other, less jammable ships. As for ECM as a counter to ECM, yeah, in a small, short fight it works well enough, in that whoever gets the first jam in tends to dominate the fight. Although you really want your ECM to be jamming the enemy BS, rather than attempting to jam enemy recons. But in longer fights, the ability to remove the ECM boat from the field, whether by popping it or forcing it to warp off-grid, not only removes the enemy ECM threat, but also frees up your jammers.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Gypsio III Interceptors are trivial to jam. But they can still act as a warp-in point for other, less jammable ships. As for ECM as a counter to ECM, yeah, in a small, short fight it works well enough, in that whoever gets the first jam in tends to dominate the fight. Although you really want your ECM to be jamming the enemy BS, rather than attempting to jam enemy recons. But in longer fights, the ability to remove the ECM boat from the field, whether by popping it or forcing it to warp off-grid, not only removes the enemy ECM threat, but also frees up your jammers. I agree with this. The common whine of "ECM is overpowered because ECM is the only good counter" is only true in smaller fights with a handful of ships on each side. In a falcon v. Falcon jam fest what really happens is one falcon gets the jam and uses at least 2 (most falcon pilots have 2 caldari jammers handy) jammers in the process. If you brought your own falcon as a "counter" all you have essentially accomplished is. . . you're consuming two jammers. Eventually the opposing falcon misses a jam and the now unjammed (and probably terrified given the falcon relies mostly on jamming magic to surive) falcon throws an absurd quantity of jammers on the other falcon - and it goes back and fourth until someone wins the battle. In a short battle, he who jams first wins. In a long battle all you've done is achieved parity by using one ship to negate the usefulness of another ship (and vice versa). Sure, shooting at a falcon might not kill it but you WILL force it from the field - and all those times the falcon isn't hanging around means you can expend those guns helping aid the real battle.
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.08 17:55:00 - [24] Keep interceptors around the fight, looking out for specifically falcons and stealth bombers. Even if the falcons do not warp away but keep you permanently jammed, you're being an asset to your fleet by disabling some jammers.
adriaans Amarr Ankaa.	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:03:00 - [25] 4-5x ECCM recon ship -sig- Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
Jin Entres Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Keep interceptors around the fight, looking out for specifically falcons and stealth bombers. Even if the falcons do not warp away but keep you permanently jammed, you're being an asset to your fleet by disabling some jammers. But one ship for one mid slot is not really a good tradeoff. If you have a significant numbers advantage, the ECM is a non issue and instead getting the jammer on your list of kills is more important. But if you've got close to equal numbers, how your ships contribute to the fight becomes rather significant. And fielding interceptors for anything but reconnaissance and fast tackling isn't very viable. A single damage dealer ship occupies 1 ECM at worst, 2 on average and kills or forces the jammer to warp out at best. So worst case scenario it's as useful as that interceptor. ----------------------
Greckor Monmouth THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:15:00 - [27] anti-falcon falcons actually work very well. We have used them, and to great effect, but then again, we dedicate a ship solely to takking out the falcon blobs. anti-falcon falcon- ecc, sensor booster, caldari jammers :)
MalVortex Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:29:00 - [28] Nanocurse TBH. Recon sensor strengths, fast, can kill its cap very very quickly (stops future jamming), drones will always force the Falcon to leave even if you do get jammed (+FOFs too depending on your highs).
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.08 18:43:00 - [29] Originally by: MalVortex Nanocurse TBH. Recon sensor strengths, fast, can kill its cap very very quickly (stops future jamming), drones will always force the Falcon to leave even if you do get jammed (+FOFs too depending on your highs). This. Fast curse is the most dangerous ship for a falcon pilot. others may be more effective at making you leave, but not more effective at killing.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2008.10.08 19:13:00 - [30] Originally by: Gypsio III Interceptors are trivial to jam. But they can still act as a warp-in point for other, less jammable ships. As for ECM as a counter to ECM, yeah, in a small, short fight it works well enough, in that whoever gets the first jam in tends to dominate the fight. Although you really want your ECM to be jamming the enemy BS, rather than attempting to jam enemy recons. But in longer fights, the ability to remove the ECM boat from the field, whether by popping it or forcing it to warp off-grid, not only removes the enemy ECM threat, but also frees up your jammers. Originally by: Jin Entres Originally by: Grarr Dexx Keep interceptors around the fight, looking out for specifically falcons and stealth bombers. Even if the falcons do not warp away but keep you permanently jammed, you're being an asset to your fleet by disabling some jammers. But one ship for one mid slot is not really a good tradeoff. If you have a significant numbers advantage, the ECM is a non issue and instead getting the jammer on your list of kills is more important. But if you've got close to equal numbers, how your ships contribute to the fight becomes rather significant. And fielding interceptors for anything but reconnaissance and fast tackling isn't very viable. A single damage dealer ship occupies 1 ECM at worst, 2 on average and kills or forces the jammer to warp out at best. So worst case scenario it's as useful as that interceptor. I agree, interceptors are easy to jam and in a ship vs. ECM module calculation not better than every other ship. But when comparing all possible counters against Falcons an interceptor is much more useful and versatile for a small fleet than other spezialized ships like sniper battleships or stealth bombers -> especially when the speed change hits! Small ships are faster, webber are weaker... I'd say a nice playing field for high damage interceptors - beside this anti-ECM issue. An own Falcon as counter against opposing Falcons is not such usful in a "non-Falcon-situation" imo because it has to be specialized against Caldari sensors. A bunch of damage interceptors is valuable against almost every ship I could imagine (again: at least after a possible speed change). And they fill many roles in a fleet: scouts, tackler, warp in markers, damage dealer against other fast stuff...and Falcon annoyance ^^



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