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A Sandbox Request: Allow Bombs and Bubbles in High-Sec

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Fredfredbug4 Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control 175	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:55:00 - [31] - Quote When I was a kid, I don't remember my sandbox being placed in a minefield. Bombs should find a way into low but there is no purpose for them hi-sec. Bubbles should stay in null. There is no clear RP reason for this but there is a gameplay reason for it. Bombs, as you know are meant to blow up a bunch of ships at once (in a nutshell). The problem with putting these in hi-sec is that it would completely unbalance the game. Entire missions could be cleared with just a few bombing runs and suicide ganking would reach the point where getting ganked has less to do with not paying attention and more to do with getting spawn killed every time you undock in any ship. Bubbles are meant to restrict movement. Can you imagine how disastrous that would be in a busy place like hi-sec? Pop out large bubbles at the trade hubs and the economy essentially grinds to a halt. This paired with bombs can turn hi-sec into a WWI battlefield, everytime you leave the trench (station) you get blown up or shot.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 21:57:00 - [32] - Quote Micheal Dietrich wrote: Stations, additional pos buildings, and sealed containers are not directly blocking space lanes or interrupting other players. Bubbles will. And I personally don't feel like being stopped at every single freaking gate as I'm trying to quickly get across the system to help a corpmate out. And the ability to bubble you, at the expense of my ship, is an exact counter to your ability to rush to another location uninhibited. Suicide-ganking blocks space lanes and interrupts other players. However, it is allowed. Why should bombs and bubbles be disallowed on similar grounds? @Fredfredbug4: Please read the OP carefully, and the remainder of my posts, to see why the situations you describe would essentially be impossible.
Acac Sunflyier Burning Star L.L.C. 141	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:00:00 - [33] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: A few recent changes to game play mechanics have been a bit detrimental to the innovation-rewarding nature of the game. I like that you start off the basis of your request with a declaration without going into detail as to what these changes are. This would be very important, considering that this is the basis for your whole argument. Sometimes, the best thing to do is have a random moment of compassion.
Nedes Betternaem Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:01:00 - [34] - Quote I am a pirate, and I am tired of having to deal with CONCORD and all these rules that prevent me from having instant IWIN buttons! Why should all these people have more stuff than me? It all belongs to me, me me me me me. And no I shouldn't have to work for it, I am obviously a better player than everyone else and deserve their stuff with little to no effort from me. CCP why are you so ignorant of my obvious superiority to everyone else? I deserve and am entitled to everything everyone else has, and everyone who plays this game only plays to ensure my happiness... CCP you just don't get the hint.
FloppieTheBanjoClown The Skunkworks 1242	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:03:00 - [35] - Quote Bombs in Jita. There's a good idea. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you.
Micheal Dietrich Standards and Practices 171	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:04:00 - [36] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Micheal Dietrich wrote: Stations, additional pos buildings, and sealed containers are not directly blocking space lanes or interrupting other players. Bubbles will. And I personally don't feel like being stopped at every single freaking gate as I'm trying to quickly get across the system to help a corpmate out. And the ability to bubble you, at the expense of my ship, is an exact counter to your ability to rush to another location uninhibited. Suicide-ganking blocks space lanes and interrupts other players. However, it is allowed. Why should bombs and bubbles be disallowed on similar grounds? Current suicide ganks don't block nearly the amount of people that a bubble would and you know that. It would be like fish in a barrel. And I can't believe you are still trying to pull ship cost. 50 mil is nothing when you destroy a 1 bil freighter carrying several bil in goods. Even if it was a big deal it certainly would not be counter to being stopped at every gate between Jita and Amarr. Concorde pops the bubble on first nuetral throug it, how does that sound?
Xen Solarus Inner 5phere 92	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:06:00 - [37] - Quote Might as well argue to just remove concord alltogether!
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:09:00 - [38] - Quote Acac Sunflyier wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: A few recent changes to game play mechanics have been a bit detrimental to the innovation-rewarding nature of the game. I like that you start off the basis of your request with a declaration without going into detail as to what these changes are. This would be very important, considering that this is the basis for your whole argument. That line might set the tone for, but is definitely not the basis of my argument. I am simply making an argument for fairness, which the recent changes, such as the "boomerang method," address. These changes are fair. Either way, this thread is simply an expression of a want, and not a concrete demand. I am not exactly throwing a tantrum because the majority is disagreeing with me. In fact I will be quite satisfied if people provide concise, rational arguments for why my proposal is detrimental to the game. Of course this will not stop the majority of people from barfing out memes and "htfu" replies, even though I am not personally vested in this proposal, which I made simply to have a decent discussion of the merits of certain game play mechanics. Micheal Dietrich wrote: Current suicide ganks don't block nearly the amount of people that a bubble would and you know that. It would be like fish in a barrel. And I can't believe you are still trying to pull ship cost. 50 mil is nothing when you destroy a 1 bil freighter carrying several bil in goods. Even if it was a big deal it certainly would not be counter to being stopped at every gate between Jita and Amarr. Concorde pops the bubble on first nuetral throug it, how does that sound? A bubble is also not a direct cause of death for everyone trapped in it, but at most a two-minute hindrance of their movement. Besides, what kills the freighter isn't the bubble, but direct firepower. A bunch of Tornadoes will pop that freighter regardless of whether it gets tackled or not.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 333	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:10:00 - [39] - Quote Bombs, yes: They are, mechanically, just another AoE effect, and we can already use others like smart-bombs and ECM Bursts (trust me, the latter will guarantee you get lolololCONCORDokken'ed--thank you, falloff modifier for E-War effects!), so why not bombs? Bubbles, not just no, but **** no! (Waaaaay too OP in hisec, IMHO, and way too "easy-mode" in general. Gate-camping is already too easy, in my view, and too much a "default" for too many people--example, those lame-ass punks in Rancer--this will only encourage more of it. Not a good thing, in my view.) Also, one thing I've always pushed for: Allowing covert-cynos and bridging to/between in hisec. [lolRP] It is not implied anywhere in the lore that CONCVORD's hisec cyno-jammers are any different than capsuleer-owned ones[/lolRP], yet BLOPs can bypass the latter, so there is at least an implied reason, assuming that lore-assumption is correct. That, plus this new generation of pathetic, over-entitled, screaming little crybears need to discover the fun of cloaked torpedo-murder appearing out of nowhere. In irae, veritas.
Tarryn Nightstorm Hellstar Towing and Recovery 334	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:17:00 - [40] - Quote Xen Solarus wrote: Might as well argue to just remove concord alltogether! Why not? In irae, veritas.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 1370	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:18:00 - [41] - Quote Nick Bison wrote: Uhhh really ... so every HiSec gate can be bubbled so you can scan every ship coming thru ? Big fat no. The sad part is, good scanners can run a scan fast enough with the right gear and boosters, so we know the request for high sec bubbles are coming from the losers who need "help" from rules changes.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 249	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:21:00 - [42] - Quote rofl @ highsec bubbles in jita. CSM7 Skype Leak
Zircon Dasher 102	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:26:00 - [43] - Quote F&I is that way Since I am here though, I am totally ok with this and would like to add another item to the list. Covert Cyno.
Micheal Dietrich Standards and Practices 171	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:30:00 - [44] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: A bubble is also not a direct cause of death for everyone trapped in it, but at most a two-minute hindrance of their movement. Besides, what kills the freighter isn't the bubble, but direct firepower. A bunch of Tornadoes will pop that freighter regardless of whether it gets tackled or not. Nuets and vamps are not a direct cause of death and yet you get popped for those actions as well, why should the bubble be any different for popping, or am I no longer talking to Mr. consequences in Space here?
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:32:00 - [45] - Quote Micheal Dietrich wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: A bubble is also not a direct cause of death for everyone trapped in it, but at most a two-minute hindrance of their movement. Besides, what kills the freighter isn't the bubble, but direct firepower. A bunch of Tornadoes will pop that freighter regardless of whether it gets tackled or not. Nuets and vamps are not a direct cause of death and yet you get popped for those actions as well, why should the bubble be any different for popping, or am I no longer talking to Mr. consequences in Space here? You're putting words in my mouth. I never mentioned anything about "no popping."
Vertisce Soritenshi Varion Galactic Tragedy. 1423	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:34:00 - [46] - Quote Allow bombs in high sec but give newbie ships 100% resistance to bombs. Im all for the open PvP of EvE but newbies need a place to start without getting face raped immediately. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!!
Leemi Sobo 38	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:35:00 - [47] - Quote since i don't want to crawl 100km to the gate with a freighter ... -1 to bubbles in highsec
Percival Gates Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team 17	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:38:00 - [48] - Quote roflrofl Imagine the carnage that could be caused with a small fleet of suicidal bombers in hi sec. Find a heavily packed area and bomb with 6-7 bombers = dozens of wrecks filled with juicy loot. Forget scanning for a gank target. You can just assume that there will be a certain isk value of loot dropped per cubic kilometer of space. So, when determining if you want to bomb or not, you simply have to wait for a critical density of ships within a given bomb radius. This is why there are no bombs in high sec.
Chokichi Ozuwara Lucky Dragon Convenience 65	Posted - 2012.03.30 22:38:00 - [49] - Quote Let's just make hisec into nullsec and get on with it. Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Horza Phlebas Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:03:00 - [50] - Quote Lets do some math. 40 Bombers, instantly kill a Jump Freighter. Cost of 40 Bombers is around 1.5Billion Isk. Now its not hard to find a spot in Jita with 5 JumpFrieghters, 6 Frieghters, and 10 Hualers in the one place. 5 JumpFrieghters = 35B Isk 6 Freighters = 7B Isk 10 Hualers = 7B Isk Total Damage = 49Billion Isk damage Cost to Bombers = 1.5bi Sounds like Profit to me.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:08:00 - [51] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Lets do some math. 40 Bombers, instantly kill a Jump Freighter. Cost of 40 Bombers is around 1.5Billion Isk. Now its not hard to find a spot in Jita with 5 JumpFrieghters, 6 Frieghters, and 10 Hualers in the one place. 5 JumpFrieghters = 35B Isk 6 Freighters = 7B Isk 10 Hualers = 7B Isk Total Damage = 49Billion Isk damage Cost to Bombers = 1.5bi Sounds like Profit to me. I understand your point, but I did specifically mention that the same safeties that apply to smartbombs would apply to bomber bombs as well. That is, the bombs wouldn't work "at 0" to gates and stations. You could still nail a bunch of people who come out of a gate/get off station dock, but hey, you can do that now with smartbombs as well. Besides, after a few days of this bombing, people will (hopefully) wise up and not just autopilot through one of Jita's many gates. Player initiative and all that. If they don't, then they can only blame themselves.
Horza Phlebas Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:16:00 - [52] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Horza Phlebas wrote: Lets do some math. 40 Bombers, instantly kill a Jump Freighter. Cost of 40 Bombers is around 1.5Billion Isk. Now its not hard to find a spot in Jita with 5 JumpFrieghters, 6 Frieghters, and 10 Hualers in the one place. 5 JumpFrieghters = 35B Isk 6 Freighters = 7B Isk 10 Hualers = 7B Isk Total Damage = 49Billion Isk damage Cost to Bombers = 1.5bi Sounds like Profit to me. I understand your point, but I did specifically mention that the same safeties that apply to smartbombs would apply to bomber bombs as well. That is, the bombs wouldn't work "at 0" to gates and stations. You could still nail a bunch of people who come out of a gate/get off station dock, but hey, you can do that now with smartbombs as well. Besides, after a few days of this bombing, people will (hopefully) wise up and not just autopilot through one of Jita's many gates. Player initiative and all that. If they don't, then they can only blame themselves. Yes you can find that many freighters off a gate in Jita. Also your proposing bubbles in highsec also.. and that would catch 20-50 Ships in Jita easily. Also Smartbombs only do around 2400 Volley and require 8Slot Battleship, bombs do 8000 Volley.
Roll Sizzle Beef Space Mutiny 154	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:20:00 - [53] - Quote Lets think of the tools in a lore perspective. Bombs and bubbles, t1, t2. corporations under guidelines of the empires and concord to put in safety locks for equipment usage within highsec. Add deadspace, pirate versions of these mods with the restrictor codes ripped out. Make them illegal mods when player vice squad for drugs is finally put in place. You can now bomb targets at war in high without concord interference. Blow a neutral and concord shows up. AND white knights could scan and suspect flag you if they catch you at stations or gates. Same with bubbles. Expensive fun.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:24:00 - [54] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Yes you can find that many freighters off a gate in Jita. Also your proposing bubbles in highsec also.. and that would catch 20-50 Ships in Jita easily. Also Smartbombs only do around 2400 Volley and require 8Slot Battleship, bombs do 8000 Volley. All of these are just numbers and not arguments against my proposal. It's like saying "1400mm artillery does 237% the volley damage of tachyon beams, and therefore shouldn't be allowed in empire." If a bunch of people want to lump their freighters into a tight group in Jita, they should have the right to do so. Just like I should have the right to launch a bomb, and face the consequences of doing so. The fact that 95% of all Jita traffic goes through a single gate (voluntarily) doesn't make my proposal less valid.
Horza Phlebas Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 3	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:29:00 - [55] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: All of these are just numbers and not arguments against my proposal. Numbers are a very valid Argument. Lets take a Fleet of 300 ( The larger Alliances could get this together easily ) A fleet of 300, could effectively bubble every gate in jita indefinitely, and rain down bombs destroying EVERY ship that enters or attempts to leave jita. JITA would be shut down, and the big alliances would not care about the cost, they do it for the lol's
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:34:00 - [56] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: All of these are just numbers and not arguments against my proposal. Numbers are a very valid Argument. Lets take a Fleet of 300 ( The larger Alliances could get this together easily ) A fleet of 300, could effectively bubble every gate in jita indefinitely, and rain down bombs destroying EVERY ship that enters or attempts to leave jita. JITA would be shut down, and the big alliances would not care about the cost, they do it for the lol's Cost is actually quite a significant factor in this proposal. Not only would it cost you the price of a dictor to bubble a gate for (at most) two minutes, but they (and a lot of other T2 stuff) would rise in price both as an effect of an increase in destruction and an effect of a lot more materials being destroyed in the game's primary market hub. A dictor costs roughly 40 million at the moment. An hour of bubbles on just one gate is 1.2 billion, and 24 hours on 7 gates is 201.6 billion. That's not an insignificant amount of money, especially when you consider that there's no insurance.
Roll Sizzle Beef Space Mutiny 154	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:37:00 - [57] - Quote Destiny Corrupted wrote: Though I disagree about the "safety lock" thing. I mean, you can't really preempt the firing of an explosive device like that. Otherwise missiles would be banned too. The risk of collateral damage is too great with a free floating dumb shell from hell. Smart bombs are at least within proximity and overview helm commands can easily dictate any distance to neutrals. And missiles are even more fool proof as they self deactivate when out of range or lose site of target and have smart tracking that has, so far in current history, never jumped targets.
Destiny Corrupted Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company 316	Posted - 2012.03.31 01:39:00 - [58] - Quote Roll Sizzle Beef wrote: Destiny Corrupted wrote: [quote=Horza Phlebas]Though I disagree about the "safety lock" thing. I mean, you can't really preempt the firing of an explosive device like that. Otherwise missiles would be banned too. The risk of collateral damage is too great with a free floating dumb shell from hell. Smart bombs are at least within proximity and overview helm commands can easily dictate any distance to neutrals. And missiles are even more fool proof as they self deactivate when out of range or lose site of target and have smart tracking that has, so far in current history, ever jumped targets. Except that missiles used to do AoE damage until CCP made changes. Also, smartbombs have a set range, and still hit cloaked targets; that is, they are no less dangerous than bomber bombs in practice.
stoicfaux 906	Posted - 2012.04.02 00:39:00 - [59] - Quote Horza Phlebas wrote: Lets do some math. 40 Bombers, instantly kill a Jump Freighter. Cost of 40 Bombers is around 1.5Billion Isk. Now its not hard to find a spot in Jita with 5 JumpFrieghters, 6 Frieghters, and 10 Hualers in the one place. 5 JumpFrieghters = 35B Isk 6 Freighters = 7B Isk 10 Hualers = 7B Isk Total Damage = 49Billion Isk damage Cost to Bombers = 1.5bi Sounds like Profit to me. And then there's the other problem. There's almost no "social" cost to doing this. If a group were to perform such an extreme act of terrorism in Jita, then they would become kill on sight in Caldari space, i.e. "perma-banned" by the Caldari State. The other governments would also be quick to condemn such actions and would also reciprocate with kill on sight policies in their space. Players would be given free reign to shoot them if they ever set foot in high-space again. The terrorists' corps and/or alliances would also be sanctioned by the Caldari/Gallente/Amarr/Minmatar factions, which would comprise increased taxes on market transactions (for the restitution and widow &orphans fund,) and they could be prohibited from having towers or offices in faction space/corps, etc.. No amount of ratting, cosmos missions, tag turn-ins, etc., should be enough to redeem their faction reputations. Eve is supposed to be a game about choices and consequences. The current aggression mechanics belie that claim. Dammit, if CCP hadn't nerfed the Comet's blinking light, I could now be flying around in Jita in my "Whaaaaaambulance!" Goon Tears: -á25% Alcohol by Volume
Souvera Corvus SPORADIC MOVEMENT 32	Posted - 2012.04.02 01:39:00 - [60] - Quote Hi-sec war-dec bear wants his life made even easier than it is already.

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