This is a great idea.

I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL

Surely you must have missed the part of the OP where he says that only CCP must know the names(I feel you bro, reading is hard).

Oh, that's right! Nobody at CCP EVER leaks any information, ever. Just ask Hilmar about that................

Surely you must have missed the part of the OP where he says that only CCP must know the names(I feel you bro, reading is hard).
On-topic : Supported. It's time people learn to differentiate between a game and RL.

I read your post, very interesting analysis and opinion and I was clearly about to /sign.

Then I just remembered Prencleeve video, the RL threats and comments about Alex RL information and I can't sign any more.

By the way, CSM candidates should not even have to present themselves IRL for this very same reason. Does CCP guard or another CCP member tells you his RL name, tells you his RL life CV whatsoever? -no, and if they do it's a big mistake.

This is an internet video game, where internet anonymous nerds do whatever/whatsoever from killing pixels to act like pedos, threat people RL, bullie, have racist comments more often than they say hello to someone else, girls don't exist or they're gay/played by men, most guys are gay, and so on and so forth.

So because of the above, I can't agree with you, this can take proportions that go beyond reason.

Huh?

Currently, to run for the CSM, you are required to divulge your RL identity not only to CCP, but to the entire community. The idea is that CSM candidates should not be required to do so (except to CCP, of course, but this is already done through your account info)

Wow. The amount of Goons and other NullBears posting as opposed to 'Carebears' is again very revealing.

Something is fishy.

I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Especially with the way some sectors of EVE players s***talk (they just don't know when enough is enough though), even this extreme talk is probably not serious, just NOT thinking and more than likely it is (again) alcohol influenced.

Better to deal with law enforcement (with NO delay) if necessary like last night on a case by case basis ahould this arise again in the future.

Upd: EVE needs to have the 'bad boy on the block" reputation, but now it seems more like the 'psychotic idiot on the block'. Alliance and Corp members need to 'eyeball' thier members better. These behaviors are usually evident in some fashion BEFORE these things happen. But then the type they hang around with probably think it's funny.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Update 3: Re-read the article about all of this. I'd be careful (I can't stress that enough) and REALLY BE SURE that was not somebody's idea of a bad joke on that radio show. Something seems staged about it. THAT needs to be looked into as well.

Besides, a CSM composed of anonymous Toons will not be taken very seriously at all, and may as well not exist.

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL

Well, TBH, if this really happened, I believe it will be 'THE LAST STRAW'.

CCP, in order to protect themselves since the playerbase is too immature to even have a finger in the political pot without threatening to literally kill and **** people..............

.......they will probably have no choice but to disband the CSM permanently.

Thank you Mr. Alexander Gianturco.

Well, TBH, if this really happened, I believe it will be 'THE LAST STRAW'.

CCP, in order to protect themselves since the playerbase is too immature to even have a finger in the political pot without threatening to literally kill and **** people..............

.......they will probably have no choice but to disband the CSM permanently.

Thank you Mr. Alexander Gianturco.

3rd page and still pretty much it's JUST ANOTHER GOONFEST here.

CCP, do not fall into this trap.

The Meta-Game sure has bitten back.

The Meta-Game is proving to obviously be a REAL BAD IDEA after all.

I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Especially with the way some sectors of EVE players s***talk (they just don't know when enough is enough though), even this extreme talk is probably not serious, just NOT thinking and more than likely it is (again) alcohol influenced.

Better to deal with law enforcement (with NO delay) if necessary like last night on a case by case basis ahould this arise again in the future.

Upd: EVE needs to have the 'bad boy on the block" reputation, but now it seems more like the 'psychotic idiot on the block'. Alliance and Corp members need to 'eyeball' thier members better. These behaviors are usually evident in some fashion BEFORE these things happen. But then the type they hang around with probably think it's funny.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Update 3: Re-read the article about all of this. I'd be careful (I can't stress that enough) and REALLY BE SURE that was not somebody's idea of a bad joke on that radio show. Something seems staged about it. THAT needs to be looked into as well.

Besides, a CSM composed of anonymous Toons will not be taken very seriously at all, and may as well not exist.

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL

I generally agree with the need for caution, but I do have one issue with this, and it might even be the reason why CCP chose to publish names in the first place, I dunno.

If the real names off applicants are removed from the process, doesn't that increase the chance of a player with a poor reputation using an alt to run for the CSM?

There may be players who would not vote for a certain candidate because of a past action (say The Mittani) or because of a poltical association (a certain alliance etc) but who would vote for his publicly unknown alt that is 'untainted' by a colourful past.

While revealing a real world identity could be abused, it also helps to identify individual players from largely anonymous character identities that can be legitimately bought or sold.

If real names were removed from the process, there should be another means of identifying players beyond the character name they choose to compete with.

An alt of The Mittani would still benefit from the channelled support of Goonswarm, but be freed of much of the current controversy now on his shoulders. Is that right?

I've heard a decent amount about the threats Mittens has received.
So, I support this as well, and suggest that perhaps evetv/fanfest should stop using players' real names as well and just use character names, just like they do with the CCP employees.

Not broadcasting players' real names, whether restricted to the csm or not, will help players and CCP avoid further media slandering in the future

Edit: While taking out the country might be a good idea, without the names, they don't mean much. Some people might vote because someone from their country is running, so perhaps keep a category about what primetime they fall under or something. It's still vague while still potentially enabling regional voting for anyone who actually might do that (for whatever reason)

So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP.
-Liang

I agree, but I would like to amend your proposal. Any CSM delegate - or an EVE Online player for that matter - that discloses personal information pertaining another player, or if he or she commits an act - both in-game or OCC - that is illegal (like inciting to suicide), should be banned permanently. Reporting the crime to authorities by CCP should be mandatory.

I agree, but I would like to amend your proposal. Any CSM delegate - or an EVE Online player for that matter - that discloses personal information pertaining another player, or if he or she commits an act - both in-game or OCC - that is illegal (like inciting to suicide), should be banned permanently. Reporting the crime to authorities by CCP should be mandatory.

Extensive leeway are given to people who play the game. They can grief, gank, kill, bash, destroy, all for the purpose of good laughs. It's the "sandbox" - whatever that means.

But those who have great privileges should also have great responsibility. You can't commit not even ONE illegal act. You cannot break the laws of your host country by inciting people to harass your enemy until he suicides.

That's where the line must be drawn. That is the fact that many here are conveniently dismissing. This proposal -as it is - will only protect CSM delegates, who are already powerful players within the game.

We regular players should be also protected from them. And I am not talking about a 30-day ban.

We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet.

Signed

Anyone whos ever heard of the one corp who went to a dudes house just to kill his power to kill his supercap needs to sign this (this isnt a made up story)

That didn't actually happen - Mittens refused to dig up the dude's address for RA.

I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Especially with the way some sectors of EVE players s***talk (they just don't know when enough is enough though), even this extreme talk is probably not serious, just NOT thinking and more than likely it is (again) alcohol influenced.

Better to deal with law enforcement (with NO delay) if necessary like last night on a case by case basis ahould this arise again in the future.

Upd: EVE needs to have the 'bad boy on the block" reputation, but now it seems more like the 'psychotic idiot on the block'. Alliance and Corp members need to 'eyeball' thier members better. These behaviors are usually evident in some fashion BEFORE these things happen. But then the type they hang around with probably think it's funny.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Update 3: Re-read the article about all of this. I'd be careful (I can't stress that enough) and REALLY BE SURE that was not somebody's idea of a bad joke on that radio show. Something seems staged about it. THAT needs to be looked into as well.

Besides, a CSM composed of anonymous Toons will not be taken very seriously at all, and may as well not exist.

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL

But those who have great privileges should also have great responsibility. You can't commit not even ONE illegal act. You cannot break the laws of your host country by inciting people to harass your enemy until he suicides.
.

Oh, that's right! Nobody at CCP EVER leaks any information, ever. Just ask Hilmar about that................

Also, the TIMING of this is suspicious. Late on a Friday Night. CCP gone and only a few hapless GM's around for the next 48 hours. How convenient.

You forget one thing - controversy does not mean someone cannot get elected. As long as this was not dodging a ban on running for CSM - CCP would need to investigate, using real names and billing info which they and only they should possess - then there is no reason why Mittens or Darius or anyone else who has made themselves infamous by their actions should be able to stand.

Plus the alt would need to develop a good reputation before non-voting bloc members would vote for him. If Mittens stood for election for CSM using an unknown alt, and commanded all goons to vote for him, he would receive goon votes and maybe a dozen more of so. If he stood as The Mittani, he would receive all goon votes and hundreds, if not thousands, of non-goons who like his attitude or policies.

As shown by the voting results of CSM 7, an unknown toon without the support of a voting bloc will gather no votes. Even high profile but inept candidates received a pitiful number of votes. To get elected, you either need the support of a voting bloc - goons will vote for The Mittani, whether standing as The Mittani or an alt - or you need to be a competant, high profile candidate who has been a key part in the community for a number of months, potentially years. So these concerns about alts 'abusing' the system really are minimal, especially compared to candidates personal contact details potentially being abused, a la mittensgate.

Tonight I listened to Eve Radio where the CSM spoke about The Mittani Scandal and then The Mittani and Nyphur talked about the consequences and fallout of associating real life name with overly sensationalist terms. The conversation was much less dramatic than I expected and I'm very thankful that Nyphur was so willing to work with The Mittani. Eventually they even made up and almost e-hugged. How cute.

However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.

At any rate, at the end of the show, someone posted The Mittani's real life address and someone else said they were headed that way to **** The Mittani's wife. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this said, but I've learned a lot about the way CCP handles it since the last time I saw it so directly. And just to be clear: CCP takes these threats very seriously and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's received a visit from their local law enforcement tonight.

So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP. The real life information of current CSM members is already available, but that's no reason for future members to potentially be put in similar real life situations.

We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet. Maybe even people like you.

-Liang

You dont want to give up your name, dont run for CSM.

You run more risk of being harassed on facebook then you do being on the CSM.

Any IRL harassment that may occur on can easily be taken care of by the local authorities and a petition to CCP.

Most of the fallout and continued fallout can be laid squarely at Mittens feet.

That Eve Radio stunt was pathetic. Next time try having someone one with an opposing view point that wasnt bullied into changing his tune on. It was nothing but propagandist fluff by cheerleaders.

I generally agree with the need for caution, but I do have one issue with this, and it might even be the reason why CCP chose to publish names in the first place, I dunno.

If the real names off applicants are removed from the process, doesn't that increase the chance of a player with a poor reputation using an alt to run for the CSM?

There may be players who would not vote for a certain candidate because of a past action (say The Mittani) or because of a poltical association (a certain alliance etc) but who would vote for his publicly unknown alt that is 'untainted' by a colourful past.

While revealing a real world identity could be abused, it also helps to identify individual players from largely anonymous character identities that can be legitimately bought or sold.

If real names were removed from the process, there should be another means of identifying players beyond the character name they choose to compete with.

Posting of The Mittani's real life address is harassment (invitation to mischief) beyond anything he said or did at Fanfest.

Threat to his wife is no joke. Can never tell who is a sick joker and who is truly deranged, but that's not for CCP or any of us to sort out. That's for the police to investigate.

But just as in RL, if you want to run for any kind of office, it's not unreasonable to require that you give up some of your expectation of privacy and that you accept greater responsibility for all your words and actions.

You are going to speak for us, be one of our public faces. We should know and be able to verify who you are, not your in-game persona. Your in-game self may be a villain; your real-life self honorable. But it might also be the other way around.

Many good reasons not to want that kind of scrutiny. Some bad. Either case, don't stand for office.

Knowing the real person matters.
.

Exactly, this is either a knee jerk reaction or more liang being a propaganda shill for the mittani. The suggesting is short sighted and silly.

These people represent all of the players. You know the risks of losing the anonymity shield going in. We cannot and should not have people with that kind of shield to hide behind making input calls into development cycles.

They are still elected representatives. I want to know the man as much as the character he uses in game when i vote for them. The IRL person matters more to me then their characters. I cant get and honest gauge of jack crap about a person if they are hiding behind their avatar and the persona of the avatar.

Knowing the real person matters.

People act very different when they think they are Anons.

When Voting for a CSM rep, you should be voting for the person. Not the character they play in game. Since that person is the one that will be making the calls and giving input. Not the character.

This suggesting is just crazy.

You know the risks of losing the anonymity shield going in.

In my opinion, anonymity for CSM candidates won't work.

At the end of the day, toons are pixels on a screen. The people on the CSM are the players, the people behind the toons. Since those people are representing the players as a whole to CCP, the players need to know who the people behind the toons are, because (in most cases) those people are very different from the toons they play.

Not signed.

I don't support this. If someone wants to be among the few representing the entire player-base, and have such perks as an all-expense paid trip to Iceland, they can do us the courtesy of revealing such basic information as their name and country of residence. For me, it is more the principle here. I could maybe get behind striking their country, but not their name. I think running for CSM should involve opening up to the playerbase enough to share their real name.

I don't support this. If someone wants to be among the few representing the entire player-base, and have such perks as an all-expense paid trip to Iceland, they can do us the courtesy of revealing such basic information as their name and country of residence. For me, it is more the principle here. I could maybe get behind striking their country, but not their name. I think running for CSM should involve opening up to the playerbase enough to share their real name.

... We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information ...

Wasnt and issue before.

All the sudden mittens gets in trouble, and its a jihad to hide from the public.


Dont want to give up your name, dont run.

Wasnt and issue before.

All the sudden mittens gets in trouble, and its a jihad to hide from the public.


Dont want to give up your name, dont run.

Wasnt and issue before.

All the sudden mittens gets in trouble, and its a jihad to hide from the public.


Dont want to give up your name, dont run.

Let me quote a piece of the OP here, because I think it really addresses your objection on the basis of courtesy nicely:

This does nothing but bring about an obvious exploitable situation.

This makes it entirely TOO easy to run counter "shadow campaigns" and pack your voting bloc.

Oh, that's right. The GOONS are all for this. Makes sense NOW.

Well most of the time I agree with you Liang, but that is absurd. The argument has been abused countless times in history (only when convenient ofc). By that logic, all persons somehow exposed to publicity would have to run with pseudonyms. Imagine RL politics running anonymously lol. And it doesn't end there. If you want to keep anonymity for CSM members you'd have to avoid public appearances or broadcasts (at least with voice and image scrambling) because someone might identify them. And quite obviously with prominent use of facebook noone seems to give a fck.

CSM happens in meatspace and the idea to make it work like a virtual space is bound to fail. Also, revealing some personal details adds some accountability to the CSM candidacy which I find highly desirable.

I have to agree with RogueOperator, if you're not ok with that, don't run.

Signed, but with a caveat:

While I agree that giving real life information about CSM members and candidates to the sociopathic collective known as 'EVE players' is generally unnecessary, there is one circumstance where this information is relevant.

I have seen several candidates attempt to win over voters by telling us about their personal life, work experience, etc. If the CSM is anonymous and the voters have no way of verifying such information, then candidates should not be allowed to use their personal life as a platform for election.

Other than that little caveat, I'm 100% in agreement... video games are not worth RL threats and harrassment, and CCP needs to protect the players who step up to the challenge that is the CSM.

/Yargle

This does nothing but bring about an obvious exploitable situation.

This makes it entirely TOO easy to run counter "shadow campaigns" and pack your voting bloc.

Oh, that's right. The GOONS are all for this. Makes sense NOW.

More or less,

Note that its goon supporters and pets/alts that are pushing this.


It also opens the door for fraud against the voting players.

And how does you having his name make that person come out?

Bottom line, though, is that I want someone who's campaigning for a position where he will be representing me to feel a level of personal accountability for post-election actions, and I don't feel like making candidates (or CSM representatives) anonymous is a good answer to situations like the recent threats to Alex et al. A better answer to those threats is temporary bans handed out by CCP, I think.

Bottom line, though, is that I want someone who's campaigning for a position where he will be representing me to feel a level of personal accountability for post-election actions, and I don't feel like making candidates (or CSM representatives) anonymous is a good answer to situations like the recent threats to Alex et al. A better answer to those threats is temporary bans handed out by CCP, I think.

They have a level of personal accountability that comes from NDAs and contracts with CCP. The player base does not need their real name, country of origin, address, resume, or any other real life information to guarantee this.

I thought personal consequences for spaceship game actions was what got us in this whole mess in the first place?

]Umm, no. Alex plays The Mittani, but he isn't the toon (I hope). What he did IRL is what got us into the current little mess.

... as Mittens is catching a lot of RL harassment over this. ...

Yeah. I know. Sucks, TBH, and I feel for him (even though I've never met him). I think he should forward some of the more egregiously offensive stuff to CCP and hold their toes to the fire to help do something about it. A few 30 day bans would be a good place to start.

But I think complete anonymity will breed a star chamber atmosphere and ultimately destroy what good the CSM is capable of doing.

If players are to vote for CSM candidates, though, I feel those candidates also have a level of accountability to the players that vote for them. Without that accountability, the CSM might as well be a star chamber. I don't feel like I need all the little details of the player's life, but I do feel that CSM members (or candidates) owe me a bit more than some random player.

As for protecting CSM candidates (and members, past and present), I honestly think that this is something CCP should step up a bit on. If someone makes RL threats against a CSM, then CCP should take some action. I'm aware that CCP's current policy is that out of game communications are no business of CCP's (and I know of some sickening RL threats that have been made over the years where CCP said "contact your local law enforcement if you think they're serious"), but I feel that they do have a responsibility to people who are in the "public eye" as CSM members beyond the general policy.

While I won't argue against the your contention that CSM candidates/members need more "protection" than they get today, I don't feel that anonymity is the right way to get it.

Yeah. I know. Sucks, TBH, and I feel for him (even though I've never met him). I think he should forward some of the more egregiously offensive stuff to CCP and hold their toes to the fire to help do something about it. A few 30 day bans would be a good place to start.

But I think complete anonymity will breed a star chamber atmosphere and ultimately destroy what good the CSM is capable of doing.

Tonight I listened to Eve Radio where the CSM spoke about The Mittani Scandal and then The Mittani and Nyphur talked about the consequences and fallout of associating real life name with overly sensationalist terms. The conversation was much less dramatic than I expected and I'm very thankful that Nyphur was so willing to work with The Mittani. Eventually they even made up and almost e-hugged. How cute.

However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.

At any rate, at the end of the show, someone posted The Mittani's real life address and someone else said they were headed that way to **** The Mittani's wife. This isn't the first time I've seen something like this said, but I've learned a lot about the way CCP handles it since the last time I saw it so directly. And just to be clear: CCP takes these threats very seriously and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's received a visit from their local law enforcement tonight.

So with all of this in mind, I believe that the CSM white paper should be amended in such a way that the CSM candidates (and eventual CSM members) real names and countries of origin are not given to the player base as a whole - but strictly to CCP. The real life information of current CSM members is already available, but that's no reason for future members to potentially be put in similar real life situations.

We as a player community have proven that we are not responsible enough, not mature enough, and not sane enough to be trusted with this information and this proposal is meant to help our upcoming CSM candidates - those whose real names aren't known yet. Maybe even people like you.

-Liang

At this point I will support your topic to remove people's real life names from the process on the provisio it goes further and makes any unauthorized link to somebody's personal detals, photographs a eula breaching offence punishable by a signifcant ban.

Out of game harrassment/bullying must be completely outlawed in Eve online if this game is to repair its toxic reputation in the wider gaming community

Serious question: Would you include the Eve-O forums as ingame or out of game? As much of the meta gaming happens here. And not just here, but on unofficial forums, where everyone API registers as their main toon - is that ingame, as people are still only displayed as their toon, or out of game, as it is out of the control of the gms?

I do agree that out of game harrassment should be cracked down on when proven, but where do you draw the line between ingame and out of game. Its a grey area, and I personally do not know the answers.

EDIT: Also, the comment on your real life photo page is clearly tongue in cheek, and not a serious accusation - but your real life photo has no business being on that website without your permission, so should be removed (along with the comment).

Serious question: Would you include the Eve-O forums as ingame or out of game? As much of the meta gaming happens here. And not just here, but on unofficial forums, where everyone API registers as their main toon - is that ingame, as people are still only displayed as their toon, or out of game, as it is out of the control of the gms?

I do agree that out of game harrassment should be cracked down on when proven, but where do you draw the line between ingame and out of game. Its a grey area, and I personally do not know the answers.

This is not real life, and these are not real life politicians. Please separate the two quite firmly in your mind.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I am extremely concerned about the people who keep insisting that real life information is required to keep CSM candidates/delegates accountable.

4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1

Way to cherry pick the arguments you reply to... At least you implicitly agreed that it would be impossible to guarantee a candidates anonymity.

Now onto the argument you did reply to: It doesn't suit your proposal, but for most part the line between game in RL is a blurry one. And unless you see it from a RPing perspective, the CSM are RL player representatives, not of in-game characters. In fact, apart from their interest focus, very little of the CSM is not RL.

Also, tell me more about your paranoia about people that would prefer representatives to drop anonymity. Do you think it doesn't add accountability or do you not want that? The latter is only of concern for people that intend to **** people off, in which case you shouldn't be in the CSM (or do you disagree with that as well?).

LOL!

Kudos to The Mittani for remaining a true Internet Spaceship Spy Guy. He has the balls and resoursefulness to turn even his curent sh*tty situation to the advantage of Goons in the future.

1. Get your real life adress (which is easy to find anyway) posted anonymously.
2. Get one of your henchmen to threaten raping your wife on EVE radio.
3. Get another one of your henchmen (Liang the OP) to spin this into a crybaby story that victimizes Mittens himself.
4. Turn it into a whoring campaign against CCP to anonymize CSM memberships - i.e. make CSM accessible to hordes of aspie sociopaths from Goonswarm.
5. ????!!!!
6. PROFIT!!!1

tell me more about accountability and anonymity, npc alt

Way to cherry pick the arguments you reply to... At least you implicitly agreed that it would be impossible to guarantee a candidates anonymity.

Now onto the argument you did reply to: It doesn't suit your proposal, but for most part the line between game in RL is a blurry one. And unless you see it from a RPing perspective, the CSM are RL player representatives, not of in-game characters. In fact, apart from their interest focus, very little of the CSM is not RL.

Also, tell me more about your paranoia about people that would prefer representatives to drop anonymity. Do you think it doesn't add accountability or do you not want that? The latter is only of concern for people that intend to **** people off, in which case you shouldn't be in the CSM (or do you disagree with that as well?).

I'd be really interested to see your thoughts on stage 5. In our experience, the CSM is a hell of a lot better when it's got competent, social, sane people on it. Just compare the success of CSM 6, led by Comrade Chairman Mittens, to any of the other ones.

I completely agree, which is why I think Mittens deserves to remain in CSM7.

I also think CCP is every bit as responsible for the f*ck up at the Alliance Panel as Mittens. The panel was moderated by a CCP employee, who made no comment when Mittens was reading from his side about The Wis, and did nothing to reprimand Mittens when he urged his minions to help The Wis become an hero.

My conclusion: CCP messed up, but unlike Mittens who at least had the decency basic PR awareness to take responsibility and apologize, CCP is trying to get away with scapegoating Mittens and make him the only one who has to pay.

I still can't see how making CSM candidates disclose their names gets in the way of bringing more competent, sane and social individuals in. Your own words prove my point: CSM6 had no anonymous members and still did a great job.

As I told Jade last night: if I'd had any clue about the RL harassment he went through, I'd have included his story as evidence of how deranged our player base can be in the OP. RL harassment over a video game is simply not acceptable - regardless of if its someone harassing The Mittani, Jade Constantine, or you

And frankly, if you want to discount what happened to The Mittani: Jade Constantine's story is enough for me to have made this proposal

-Liang

It makes no difference to the fact you are spinning R/L harassment stories to garner support for some other agenda, one that has nil to do with stopping R/L harassments in Eve
...
You can back off now and make this about Jade Constanine or whoever, but the fact you spun this story after the farce on eve radio involing Mittens' wife has done your case poor service. It only reminded everyone that anonymity is most often not a shield against RL harassments, but rather a cover to people who are most likely to conduct such harassments
...
Back to your proposal - I'm sorry, it makes no sense, it's evil, it's stupid and it must die. Luckily, CCP will throw it out of the window regardless of how many support it gets.
CSM members are public figures who willingly chose to make their involvement with the game go past their in game character into the real world. This entails some commitment, part of which is deanonymization.

Exactly how would "anonymizing" the CSM throw it open to hordes of anyone. The only people you could exclude by knowing their IRL names is people whose name you already know. The only real danger would be alts of current or past CSM members and candidates plus the few players that have already disclosed their name.

Blah blah, ad hominem, blah blah, kindergarten slurs, blah blah, logical fallacies
-Liang

more emo rage

-Liang

See, aspie, anonymizing the CSM will make it open to hordes of people who would otherwise not have run, because "meh, I have to tell everybody my name and stuff".

Usually those who make a great deal of their privacy and anonymity online, do so not out of fear of being harassed. It surely isn't about their wives being harassed, you figure out why

So to begin with, this campaign for anonymizing CSM is hypocritical and wrong in the way it spins R/L harassment stories as justification.

If you're going to campaign for CSM anonymity, at least do it honestly. Say that you want CSM to be open for anons. For people who like to speak their minds freely online. Not having to be polite, considerate or even humanly decent. Those who like to vomit all over with all those pesky values and tedious social norms they've been stuffed with since prepuberty. Those who enjoy to express their true feelings about helping a blind old lady cross the street - hell, pushing her under the bus for teh lulz is the real thing!

That's something I could at least dignify with a serious reply. Liang's offer is a joke and mockery to our intelligence.

BTW, if there's anything I respect Mittens for, it's his willingness to forfeit his anonymity and run about in this game with his real identity known to everyone. He doesn't mind the accountability that comes with this "outing". This is the only thing that indicates a genuine real life personality behind the in game character. This is why his apology as Alex does have merit, even though I still adamantly believe he only posted it as damage control vs CCP.

Ok, I must admit I didn't quite understand some of your arguments, specifically those criticizing Liang's proposal, so I'm just going to ignore them in my response. Let's hope no one notices, I don't like to appear dumb or illiterate or anything :/

What you call "Aspies", or any person that has significant dysfunction that may impair their ability to serve properly, are going to pretty easy to spot during the campaign process. I don't think disclosure of their real life names has anything to do with it.

You may be correct that it lowers the bar a bit for that type of person to cast an entry into the race, but I don't think that type will do well.

Heck I barely know you and I suspect you are a loon. Wasn't that hard to figure out.
But really I just said it because I'm pissed that you called me an aspie.

Engaging me in rational debate really is futile.

Hmm... nothing to respond to the point. More ad hominem? Nah, will only hint I am angry and pwned.
OK, I'll play the passive aggressive card:
You're IMPOSSIBLE to talk with!

Did I summerize it correctly?

That said it is pretty clear that allot of people take this game too seriously. Mittani once mentioned in a podcast how some eve playing lawyer kept getting harrassed in real life by goons sending faxes to his office (or something like that).

Yeah, revealing R/L info about yourself may have consequences on the internet. If you eventually mess up, or **** off some anonymous people, you may end up being harassed.
All I can say to that is: deal with it ~10058~ (c) All rights reserved.

Just so I can be clear on the argument people have against this proposal:

Nobody knows that Liang Nuren = The Mittani
Liang Nuren runs for CSM
Because the RL names of the candidates are not revealed Liang is elected to the CSM
Mittens can go back to ruining EVE

Did I summerize it correctly?


Seems to me that unless CCP has some issues with RL names not being released to the playerbase (wierd laws or something) it should have been in place years ago.

Maybe I misunderstood the complaint though.

Yep, sounds reasonable.

It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.

Yep, sounds reasonable.

It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.

I say to not cave in to those particular elements within EVE. They will have 'won'.


Especially with the way some sectors of EVE players s***talk (they just don't know when enough is enough though), even this extreme talk is probably not serious, just NOT thinking and more than likely it is (again) alcohol influenced.

Better to deal with law enforcement (with NO delay) if necessary like last night on a case by case basis ahould this arise again in the future.

Upd: EVE needs to have the 'bad boy on the block" reputation, but now it seems more like the 'psychotic idiot on the block'. Alliance and Corp members need to 'eyeball' thier members better. These behaviors are usually evident in some fashion BEFORE these things happen. But then the type they hang around with probably think it's funny.

Update 2: I see the GOONS are really FOR this. And MAINLY Goons. I smell a rat. CSM and CCP really better THINK HARD before doing away with RL names. Seems to me like someone is trying to pull a stunt and get away with something anonymously. More than likely they have found an exploit of a sort. I'd be REAL careful here.................

Update 3: Re-read the article about all of this. I'd be careful (I can't stress that enough) and REALLY BE SURE that was not somebody's idea of a bad joke on that radio show. Something seems staged about it. THAT needs to be looked into as well.

Besides, a CSM composed of anonymous Toons will not be taken very seriously at all, and may as well not exist.

Signed, James Causey, Palm Harbor, FL

Signed.

The people that are against this are literally trying to say that RL identities hold someone more accountable because of the implication of RL reprisals. Holy **** you mentally unstable sociopaths need to get a life.

If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain?

Obvious projection is obvious.

If RL identities don't amount to any additional accountability, and are in fact meaningless to your conduct in the world of New Eden, why do you support changing the current situation and "anonymizing" CSM? What's there to gain?

Obvious projection is obvious.

I am not really sure on this one. How far does this go?
If CSM meet in iceland are they supposed to only talk to other in person using their ingame name? Would it be a violation of the Eula if someone accidently refered to someone else by their real name?

However, there's an important take away to be had here: what could have been a story about a drunk mostly anonymous ******* making an exceptionally stupid comment at Fanfest became so much more because of the use of a real name. The news elements fed off of each other with all making various untrue allegations towards not The Mittani - but the player behind The Mittani. And really, this is hardly the first time that someone's real life name has come up in terms of their actions on the CSM - for instance there are several people who have been accused (but not "convicted") of breaking the NDA and now their real life is similarly affected. So effectively: the use of a real name takes things to the next level. And this is going to be true any time someone's real life name is used - whether that person is The Mittani, Jade Constantine, Liang Nuren, or yours.

Stick it into the NDA, boom problem solved in a manner with legal recourse.
Supported

Everyone who watches fanfest needs to sign an nda?

Should the csm appear with masks on to protect their identities?

In what way do RL names add any sort of accountability that doesn't involve some level of RL harassment?

The only way they add to 'accountability' is by the hanging threat of defamation or RL threats. That's just not tolerable.

Also other then Alex and Eva, who else on the CSM have openly self promoted themselves outside of Eve?

Do you not find it funny that the only 2 CSM members that have had issues outside of the game, because of the game, have both been very vocal, very self promoting, always courting the media outside of Eve?

I personally believe that in both cases being on the CSM had very little to with anything.

As I said before, their real life names were already known on the internet because they chose to tell the world, not because they were on the CSM.

If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.

-Liang

I have seen many pictures come out from fanfest of popular players in their natural form. I still have no idea who they are, where they are from etc.

Cearain, you're trying to make this proposal into something it's not. Are you really so dense that you can't understand it?

-Liang

I was totally unaware what happened to Jade and again, I find it a totally reprehensible act, yet I also find it funny how many members of Goonswarm were on the forums saying what was said about Alex to be terrible, yet them themselves are just as bad.. double standards here I think....

As for Larkonis Trassler, before this post I had never heard of him. Did a quick google search and found he was kicked off the CSM for using insider information to make isk. None of the articles I found including CCP's official statement mentioned anything regarding NDA.

Lets be honest here, it makes no difference whether we know their rl names or not, personally I would not.

What I would like to add is, I do not know if Alex was a member of the Goons or was personally involved, or was in charge at the time those personal attacks were made on Jade, but if he was, then I would sincerely hope he now has a better understanding of what it is like being personally attacked and maybe, just maybe, he makes sure that whilst he is leading the goons, he does his best to make sure it doesn't happen again to anybody else.

If its so easy to understand what you are proposing, why not answer the questions I pose?

Yep, sounds reasonable.

It might make sense to require CSM members to reveal any "public figure" alts, though. At least require that if you have been in the CSM before, you run under the same character name again. It would be weird if we could not use information on past performance in the CSM while making voting decisions. :)

Obviously, real identities will be revealed when people meet each other for RL, be it for CSM or for Fanfest or just local meets. But EULA/TOS already forbids you from posting that information to the forums, ingame, etc.

If you read the thread, Jade Constantine has some pretty serious issues spring up without being so vocal and self promoting... furthermore the constant accusation leveled at Darius III of breaching the NDA could potentially have RL implications. Larkonis Trassler also could be looking at similar problems.

-Liang

I don't know about Jade. But as far as the nda, if real life people are violating real life contracts, it can have real life consequences. Why is this bad? This is good right? I mean that gives extra protection that csm will play by the rules. If the only thing that happened was some sort of in game thing then csm would be more likely abuse the information they receive right?

Line your questions out in one single post in a concise format.

-Liang

You are confused. I'm not complaining about consequences for breaking real life contracts. I'm talking about how the CSM candidates and members having real life information available implicitly makes accusations of breaking the NDA a matter of RL importance. I'm talking about RL defamation and character assassination derived from the RL information that's just given out for no reason at all.

-Liang

What do you mean forums ingame "etc"?

Are we able to post it on failheap challenge?
What about other mediums that have nothing to do with eve?

When massively reports the names of the csm members (because the csm showed up at a public event like fanfest) will all employees of massively have their eve accounts banned?

If people make their identity public by showing up in person with others it is sort of hard to unring the bell.

Is ccp supposed to police the internet for any mention of somones name and then try to track down who released it and then see if they have an eve account?
And why are they doing this again?

Is it because someone somewhere said something stupid to the guy who was telling people, who said they were considering ending their lives, to go ahead and kill themselves?

It should be a matter of real life importance. Its a real life NDA and real life accusations of its breach by real life people. This is a good thing because csm is a group of real life people who sometimes run based on their real life accomplishments.

If ccp wrongly defames anyone for violating the nda then they would be subject to the laws of the relevant jurisdiction.

I agree with your first sentence. I am confused what your issue with this is.

Currently, CSM candidates have to announce their real life identities and locations to the Eve public. As recent events have shown the Eve public will not handle this information in a mature manner, it is proposed that future CSM candidates do not have to publicly reveal their RL identities.

CCP's forums are covered by CCP's EULA and TOS. This is readily apparent.



It's worth mentioning that CCP has banned people for posts on 3rd party sites that claimed EULA/TOS violations. However, at this point you're basically talking about a systematic campaign of harassment and RL character assassination. I honestly can't believe I'm having this conversation with you. What in the hell makes you think its any more ok to do this about CSM members than it is about you or me?
-Liang