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Rick Galshin
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I've been playing at several different career paths, I've taken to the market and earnt more isk than I can spend with my current skills, and I'm pouring the non-invested cash into ships to help get rookies into PvP.
I've run myself up to level 4 missions (should I wish to hang around long enough to complete them), have briefly touched on mining, had some success ninja looting and salvaging, done some manufacturing and traded a few BPOs around. I've done a little solo nullsec PvP (with little success so far), and even some white-knight anti-piracy work
I have come across one profession in eve that I want to pursue long term: Fleet Commander
Having seen the various videos of small, well managed fleets turning the odds against much larger foes, and seeing firsthand the difference a well versed fleet commander has on even small gangs, I want to know what I have to do to get there
So far I'm working with Stellar Vix and msmall squads of rookies in lowsec/shallow nullsec, and some highsec shenanigans too. I'm not too keen to join a player Corp just yet as I still have a fair bit to learn from this position. Are there any Guides worth reading, any particular players/Corps I should be talking to, and generally any places I would go to get FC experience after SWA
All opinions/trolls welcome. |
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
9
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's p simple, join a pure pvp corp (yes that means leaving your beloved NPC corp) pvp under experienced FC s for a year or two, observe what they do and why, understand game mechanics and tactics used by your fleet and enemy fleet, and then you're good to go.
First you have to learn to pvp yourself, then think about FCing others. For now , a good start would finding a good rupture fit, and hint, it's not this one :
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12799465 |
Bernie Nator
Talocan Hive Talocan United
152
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
What you should do is find a nice group of pvp'ers, and ask them to train you how to not be bad at pvp. It's the fast track to learning to fc. |
Darthewok
Perkone Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.03.31 14:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Try joining RvB for a bit. Because it is quite informal, you will get a few opportunities to FC small gangs. You're not going to learn everything there, but at least you get a start. CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
171
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Posted - 2012.03.31 15:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Get the hell out of an NPC corp. Then get into fleets with a good FCs. Does not really matter where you start. Easy way is to join some Militia or RvB (easy part of the easy way) and figure out who there is the guy who actually knows their stuff (harder, as a pro-tip it is probably not the guy who talks most about how awesome they are). You can also look for corps that seem good at what they do and try and get in.
Fly with many FCs. When in fleets, try to follow the FC's reasoning - why did he do this or that, what intel made him to change his mind, etc. Try to keep the field in your head and think about what you would do if you were the FC. Ask (after the operation) if you did not understand something.
Then just start doing it. And do not get discouraged when you lose ships (you will) and people call you names for it (they will). Try to learn from every fleet, whether it was a success or failure.
Takes a year or two to get there if you put your mind into it and have some pvp experience to begin with. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
113
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Posted - 2012.03.31 17:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
The path to being an FC is simple, learn every aspect of the game that could affect you, beyond that is simply a matter of being capable of processing what can be a very large amount of information. Fly with other good pilots under good FC and learn what to do. All PVP experience is good, including solo. Learn to communicate clearly and quickly, scouting is a good way to practice this
Lear -The common fits and capabilities of most ship -Your enemy (tactics, their mentality, capabilities, moral etc.. -Your pilots (capabilities, ship classes, moral etc.. -The mechanics of the game you are likely to encounte -The area of space you are likely to engage in (distance between gates etc...
Be aware o -Spacial awareness, both hostile and friendly on gri -Your scouts positionin -Logistic stability both friendly and hostil -Heat levels (are you overloading your fleet too little or too much -Aggression timer
As other posters have said it will probably be at least a year, more likely 2 of fairly frequent flying before you can expect to do all these reliably.
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Fleet Warpsujarento
State Protectorate Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2012.03.31 17:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
To some extent it's true that you have to know the game pretty well. You can't FC if you don't know every ship in the game and what its role is. You have to know likely weapons ranges, likely fits, and have a pretty good idea of game mechanics.
That said, a big part of being an FC is simply taking the initiative to say "I'm forming a fleet at 1600 EVE, bring shield BCs." As long as you have some experienced people in fleet with you, and you make it clear that you want them to tell you when you're missing something, or doing something wrong, you can't go too far wrong.
I've known some players who are completely derp when they're on their own, but actually make pretty decent FCs with the right people around them. |
Heredom
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
7
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Posted - 2012.03.31 19:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lock out wrote:It's p simple, join a pure pvp corp (yes that means leaving your beloved NPC corp) pvp under experienced FC s for a year or two, observe what they do and why, understand game mechanics and tactics used by your fleet and enemy fleet, and then you're good to go. First you have to learn to pvp yourself, then think about FCing others. For now , a good start would finding a good rupture fit, and hint, it's not this one : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12799465
Done, signature edited with perfection!... |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
99
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Posted - 2012.03.31 20:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
The first step of becoming a FC is just being bold and taking command when nobody else does.
The second step is listening to your pilots for advice, but you being the one that decides.
The third step is looking back at whatever went wrong and trying to learn from your mistakes.
There is one major downside to being an FC though: there is no way back. Once you've stood up and taken command, everyone expects you to continue leading them. Many FCs burn out because of all the bullshit and politics they have to deal with. So that's why:
The fourth step is learning to delegate. Don't try to do everything yourself, tell others to do it for you. http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif
How about fixing image-linking on the forums, CCP? I want to see signatures! |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
384
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Posted - 2012.03.31 21:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
It doesn't take a year of ground floor experience if you're out there every night, getting fights. And yeah, the first and biggest step is just stepping up and taking dudes out. The second step is getting over your initial welps. |
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Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2
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Posted - 2012.04.01 00:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Learn to PvP. Then think about FC'ing someone else.
EVE has enough FCs who have no clue how EVE PvP works. The truly successful ones are the few that take the time to learn PvP and then apply themselves to lead others. |
Pulgy
Shadows Of The Federation Drunk 'n' Disorderly
53
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Posted - 2012.04.01 01:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Lock out wrote:It's p simple, join a pure pvp corp (yes that means leaving your beloved NPC corp) pvp under experienced FC s for a year or two, observe what they do and why, understand game mechanics and tactics used by your fleet and enemy fleet, and then you're good to go. First you have to learn to pvp yourself, then think about FCing others. For now , a good start would finding a good rupture fit, and hint, it's not this one : http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12799465 This. By the way I hope you have the patience of a saint if you really want to be an FC. No range? No problem!Join the Church of the Holy BlasterGäó . A Hybrid religion. |
Rick Galshin
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.04.01 02:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wow thanks for all the responses and advice.
Yes please ignore that ruppy fit, it was a pretty specific build to take on a manticore/dramiel duo that had a friend trapped in nullsec. Once the dram/manti decided not to engage, I had no use for it so engaged the first thing I saw. Lessons were learnt from a battle which I couldn't win, and I thanked the two for what was a disappointingly simple, but informative fight.
So it sounds like I'm basically going to be spending the next few weeks getting fights everywhere I can, hopping into any fleets I can get into with decent FCs, and generally throwing a ship into any fight that won't be over in the first 5 seconds.
I'm not a fan of the idea behind Red vs Blue, but damn they do get a lot of fights judging by the wrecks I see around highsec.
Thank you all for the helping lay out a rough path to follow. |
Clementina
The Scope
61
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 04:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lots of good advice in this thread, from people who probably know more than me. Some things I'll add though.
First, you might have noticed the 'shakes' of PvP already. They get worse when you're a fleet commander. You've got to be able to command fleets even when you're afraid and there is more to be afraid of; not only the loss of your ship and pod, but also the defeat of your crew. Eventually you'll get use to it though.
Then for some experience, when you're in a fleet with someone else commanding, try to pay as much attention as you would when you yourself would be fleet commanding. Usually the FC is thinking harder than everyone else (and comes home more exhausted then everyone else), but you should think about what they are doing when you're out.
Also there are several jobs that go into fleet commanding; giving directions, scouting, target calling, processing intelligence, setting up bonuses, inviting people to the fleet. If you want to be a sane fleet commander at the end of the day, you'll find a way to farm out scouting, bonuses, and invitations at a minimum.
Last thing that needs to be said here is that geography is important. If you're going to be operating in a region you should get the maps for that region from dotlan. Also know that high-sec, low-sec, wormhole space, and 0.0 are different. Know when you're fighting under gate guns and know who the locals are for any particular place. If you're going to be in faction warfare, also know that complexes can allow you to hide, allow your enemies to hide, or set you up to be ganked depending on what the complexes allow in. Eve who can be useful as well.
Good Luck, one thing you'll notice is that there is never an organization which has an overabundance of Fleet commanders, you'll have fun I'm sure. |
are34
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Northern Coalition.
2
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Posted - 2012.04.01 15:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Intigo wrote:Learn to PvP. Then think about FC'ing someone else.
EVE has enough FCs who have no clue how EVE PvP works. The truly successful ones are the few that take the time to learn PvP and then apply themselves to lead others.
this was by far the best and most simple post, please learn to pvp yourself rather than learning to pvp with others. If you get used to solo'ing then your not limited by other players either nto being around or not wanting to go/no isk/complaining and all that other crap. It also helps alot to learn game mechanics and how other people react to certain situations. |
Xi 'xar
Mise en Abyme
17
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Posted - 2012.04.01 16:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Take a couple of agony unleashed classes and then continue to fly with them as an allumni. Honestly, nothing taught me more about hearding cats than the incredible competence of their FCs. http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/explore-low-sec/ http://reduplication.wordpress.com/category/live-low-sec/ http://mrsnypes.blogspot.com/2010/07/burnt-lands.html
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Red Teufel
Blackened Skies THE UNTHINKABLES
48
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Posted - 2012.04.01 16:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
start small. start with running some gate camps. set yourself up an off grid safe about 1,000-2,000k away. then stage some scouts in the surrounding systems. when a targets jumps in you can decide to warp down and kill it. |
SOHCNightmare
Lions Of Judah Intrepid Crossing
1
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
I would say one of the most important qualities of being an FC (Not one myself, just speaking from observation) Is understanding all ships roles and abilites and how to counter them. Engaging ships without knowing what their capabilities are can be extremely detrimental. -Kill it with fire. |
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
78
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Posted - 2012.04.01 21:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
No way just anyone can "learn" to be a good FC. You are it or you ain't. |
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
33
|
Posted - 2012.04.01 21:53:00 -
[20] - Quote
Intel intel intel.
Get your intel straight and you'll be winning fights.
Eve is a bit of chess and most battles are determined before even the first shot is fired. (multiple accounts and a network help a lot here)
Flurk Hellbron wrote:No way just anyone can "learn" to be a good FC. You are it or you ain't. The number of "good" FC's in Eve is so low that with mediocre skills and a lot of effort you still will be successful. |
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Trinkets friend
Obstergo Persona Non Gratis
280
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Posted - 2012.04.02 05:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Make sure your voice doesn't sound like a troll gargling rocks or a castrato pig in an ironworks, and you'll be fine.
Sobriety and plenty of sleep also helps. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
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Hrett
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
52
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Posted - 2012.04.02 05:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
I am not a FC, but have lead some small fleets in the past and 'stepped up' in small gangs when the FC pops. That doesn't make me an FC though. I have also been the pvp leader in whatever group I am with in most other MMOs I have played - eve is far harder.
So, I can't give you any advice from a FC perspective - but I can from the grunt perspective. So here are some things that I am surprised no one has mentioned:
1. SPEAK FIRMLY AND LOUDLY AND OFTEN when in fights or close to them. It doesn't have to be salient, or true, or even correct - but you must speak. I don't recall ever being in a fleet flight where there was more than 5 seconds of dead air that wasn't immediately floowed by an instant derppittyderpdderp after. I caused one last night, and there were only 4 of us. I have listened to two more fleet destructions i the last days that were caused by silence. Speak. Say each target or order twice. Bob is primary, bob is primary - dweedle is secondary, dweedle is secondary. - if you speak really fast, you can get out a tertiary before you have to start repeating the cycle.
2. Pretend like you know what you are talking about and say it with conviction. In the long past, I flew with FCs who had trouble turning on ther computers or tying their shoes. But in fleets - its like Gregory Peck or the Duke inspiring you to victory.
3. Delegate. Even if you are dreck - hire people to make you look good. Chatterbox - you scout. Mr. Paramoid - you are our -1. Blondie with the big rack (of missiles!) get in that bait-drake and shake your thing. Shifty - you call recons, cynos and incoming blobs. That will leave you with the glory of target calling targets.
4. Dear god, don't do it if you are tired. Drunk is perfectly acceptable though. To keep with the theme above, drunks usually have no problem flapping their jaw and giving orders. Tired will get you dead air and dead air will get your gang wiped.
And hurry up will ya? We need some more FCs. ;) |
Bengal Bob
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
24
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Posted - 2012.04.02 09:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hrett wrote: Bob is primary, bob is primary
I hate you!
Bob is NEVER primary, or there will be no cheesecake. |
Touk
Astro Defence Industry The First Blood
0
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Posted - 2012.04.02 11:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Flurk Hellbron wrote:No way just anyone can "learn" to be a good FC. You are it or you ain't.
everyone can learn to FC, but only a few are good FC's |
Halete
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
47
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Posted - 2012.04.02 11:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good luck. I'd love to learn to FC, but first I have to stop paying a subscription for chat-rooms and the occasional flying into a gate-camp. Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Khanh'rhh
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
993
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Posted - 2012.04.02 11:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Get over your nervousness by FCing in RvB, but leave before you start trying to learn tactics.
As fun as RvB is, FCing arranged fights is not really learning to FC - you will learn more about FCing when trying to find a fight. I would go further and say 75% of it is finding a fight (and methods therin) 20% is having a plan when it happens, and 5% is not ******* up. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Red Venu Khardula
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.04.02 17:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
As a former field commander in NBT:M I cannot add anymore than what has already been said. Learn to pvp ( learn weapons,what they can and cannot do, what modules do, what ship types can and cannot do and there speicallty ) then find as many fleets you can and LISTEN to the FC and how he talks and commands. Take the time and lead small roams, when I was an fc I let the mechs choose my tactics not the other way around i.e. let the pilots of you small fleet bring what they want and then work with that setup. That made me learn allot when I was in mech4 but in the end when I left NBT:M I had a 75% win ratio even out-tonned and out manned.
Good luck because being an fc can be one of the most rewarding experiences and some of the best fights I have ever been in. |
Tanaka Sekigahara
United Space Marine Corp
67
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Posted - 2012.04.02 21:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rick Galshin wrote:So I've been playing at several different career paths, I've taken to the market and earnt more isk than I can spend with my current skills, and I'm pouring the non-invested cash into ships to help get rookies into PvP.
I've run myself up to level 4 missions (should I wish to hang around long enough to complete them), have briefly touched on mining, had some success ninja looting and salvaging, done some manufacturing and traded a few BPOs around. I've done a little solo nullsec PvP (with little success so far), and even some white-knight anti-piracy work
I have come across one profession in eve that I want to pursue long term: Fleet Commander
Having seen the various videos of small, well managed fleets turning the odds against much larger foes, and seeing firsthand the difference a well versed fleet commander has on even small gangs, I want to know what I have to do to get there
So far I'm working with Stellar Vix and msmall squads of rookies in lowsec/shallow nullsec, and some highsec shenanigans too. I'm not too keen to join a player Corp just yet as I still have a fair bit to learn from this position. Are there any Guides worth reading, any particular players/Corps I should be talking to, and generally any places I would go to get FC experience after SWA
All opinions/trolls welcome.
All the advice given is great. Take it all and learn it all.
I myself will not trouble you with ships and fittings and game strategy, others can tell you that, but in the end, you have to learn to command, to THINK like a general.Learning the idiosyncrasies of the game will not teach you this. If f you REALLY want to be a good FC, learn how to wage war.That is a study in itself.
At the center of everything you do as an FC should be the decision cycle. Use the other advice in this thread for specific ways to get inside the enemies decision cycle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_%28military_strategist%29
Study war, and its basic nature. This is the best your going to get akin to a crash course.80 services worldwide have there officcers read " Warfighting"
http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/service_pubs/mcdp1.pdf
Command style is unique to each FC.In the end, one must make the commanders intent clear to sub commanders, and then not micromanage. Micromanagement will not be necessary if there is a comman basis in training.You can get some further ideas here
http://www.ramblemuse.com/rmtp/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Widder_2002_Auftragstaktik_MilRevr.pdf
.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The above i consider essential for an serious wargamer in any game
If you want to get good, and apply modern military theory and have a thorough understanding of maneuver warfare You can get the "Maneuver warfare handbook", By William Lind.
http://www.amazon.com/Maneuver-Warfare-Handbook-Westview-Military/dp/086531862X
anything by Lind is good
Finally, last but not least
"Sherman" By B.H. Lidell Hart. Serious students of warfare know the name.
http://www.amazon.com/Sherman-Soldier-Realist-American-ebook/dp/B0022NGE80
The Germans read it and came up with the Blitzkreig.
All the above is modern military theory.All of it applies to eve, or can be applied to EvE.6 months you can go through it in your spare time.They dont teach you this stuff in EvE ( although you will see the best FCS have some adaption of most of it somewhere in what they do.)
In short, what wins wars IRL wins them in EvE as well.Same command and decision making principles apply. |
Torothin
Wrecking Shots Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
|
Posted - 2012.04.03 00:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Start taking out gangs, familiarize yourself with ship types, and get experience through leading fleets. Start with cruiser sized ships and work your way up from there. Good luck! |
Halete
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2012.04.03 05:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
No offense intended of course, but I always thought that recommending military theory reading material was redundant when someone says they want to be an FC.
Chances are, they have some pretty good knowledge about military theory, or are capable enough thinkers to come to the same realizations as they could from reading that kind of material.
You know what's better than reading about military tactics? Actually FCing and working on internet spaceship tactics. Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
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