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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Siona Windweaver
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:02:00 -
[2641]
 Originally by: Shard Merchant
To recap..
- Release a short news bit regarding widespread and significant change that would occur in 48 hours.
- Buried with other news minutes later.
- 50 pages of posting follow, discussing the legitimacy of this change as per the reasons given.
- Locked 50 pages of posts because a blog was posted, that repeats the same message.
- Dev blog mentions the 'business side' of this move, which the news post omitted.
- 70 pages of new postings follow.
- Thread disappears from Information Portal. Players find it and continue posting.
- Player guide gets edited to remove controversial remarks.
Without discussing the removal of "ghost training" specifically, what we have here is an attempt to pull a fast one on the players. It is easily the biggest attempted ninja nerf in the history of this game. Your customers deserve:
- More than two days of warning, so they can find out about the changes and plan accordingly
- More visible warning, like the login screen MOTD
- More transparency and honesty about the reasons by discussing all the reasons
Hard decisions are always hard, but how you handle them determines if you gain or lose respect. The player is going to feel screwed by changes that affect them poorly, and this is the equivalent of adding insult to injury.
A lot of people are willing to defend this company regardless of what they do (4S name change, t20 scandal), but this community was built on a common respect for the makers of this game even if they didn't always agree. That was eons ago.
You might not see a dip in subscriber counts, but you'll see an increase in player churn that requires more marketing money to support. You not only lose massive amounts of free word of mouth advertising, but scare away players with the amount of ex-EVE types that leave disgruntled at something you did.
Nice post.
Also, don't forget account page removal and advertising this feature as a "Bug".
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:02:00 -
[2642]
Originally by: Tito Sajic
nowhere in his post does he even imply this: "You sneaky bastards are trying a ninja-edit to remove controversial remarks!!!" Some of the other posters have, but not Shard Merchant. Is this the only comment in his post that you can quote on? Specifically what about this comment did you not agree with?
His attribution of motive for the change ignored those "other posters" and implied that CCP was being self-serving and deceptive rather than responding to player complaints by updating the guide to be current, accurate and to reflect the change made.
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ISIAM
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:03:00 -
[2643]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Dire Radiant
That it was a portrayed as a feature in the guide shows that it is not actually a bug at all.
No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Give it a rest already we know, but it still sucks massively.
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Wager
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:03:00 -
[2644]
Go CCP, too many of Zorlya's alts in space these days anyway
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Nackturion
Minmatar
Brotherhood of the Phoenix
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:04:00 -
[2645]
Quote: "how can you just remove ghost training but not the rest of the s*** people get while inactive (market orders? share payouts?)"
This does bring up an intresting point. Aside from skill training, it should be flat across the board and the same. Expired account=Can't benefit in anyway.
Though implmentation could be a bit more tricky for those who accidentally let an account lapse or have legitimate payment errors. But that could be somewhat of an easy fix I would think.
Simply give a 5 day timer on all other character aspects (buy orders, contracts, etc). After 5 days, all of those go away also. That would give the above mentioned cases time to get issues in order at the extreme.
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Xeronn
Amarr
Ordo Drakonis
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:04:00 -
[2646]
you ****in whining emorage quiters
GO AWAY
Why would you ghosttrain , when EvE is such an awessome never-boring game, and , over the course of this year, CCP has brought us so many AWESSOME features and improvements to keep us all interested
- We got an outstanding massive expansion, featuring amazing err...features, that took years and years of carefull planing and coding
- We got regula updates on such crucial features like walking in stations
-we even got a first step twards fixing lag
-massive improvenets cattering to the peacefull players , and promises for even more such improvements so the entire playerbase can be happy and cheerfull
-we even had ellections and WOOT new elections coming up.
With ALL this, the only reason you come back to eve is to enjoy a few shiny SP?! Shame on you !!! emoragequiters, when CCP works so hard to improve the game lately
I don`t even want your stuff, the PvE side of EvE is so awesssome that it keeps me addicted hours and hours at a time, i have all the stuff i need and CCP will make sure i never lose it unles i err..enter the contested lands...so keep your stuff and quit
(sidenote : if you wanna flame on this please do the enviroment a favor and just stop breathing, sorry im all out of sarcasm detectors)
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Creepin
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:05:00 -
[2647]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Dire Radiant
That it was a portrayed as a feature in the guide shows that it is not actually a bug at all.
No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Oh, cmon, the bug that was unfixable for bloody five years and coincidentally got fixed at this exact moment, mwahaha 
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The Ubernomicon
Eight year old girls
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:06:00 -
[2648]
Before the TC changes I had 4 accounts; I kept each of the subscribed 75% of the time. Occasionally a long skill like Cruiser V, BC V or AWU V would come up and I would unsub while it trained. Being able to get past a long training hump, like AWU V, without having to pay is what kept me coming back.
After the TC changes I have only kept 2 accounts active about 50% of the time.
After the this change I will not be resubscribing any of my accounts.
My decision to not resub is not entirely because of the upcoming change, but because CCP has not fixed glaring problems that have been around for over a year. 0.0 is still stagnant, titans make fleet combat unenjoyable and only increase the NEED to blog, cyno jammers used in conjunction with jump bridges force attackers to fight capitals with sub-capitals. This game is an uninteresting stagnant mess right now and this is straw that broke the camel's back.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:06:00 -
[2649]
Originally by: Nackturion
Simply give a 5 day timer on all other character aspects (buy orders, contracts, etc). After 5 days, all of those go away also. That would give the above mentioned cases time to get issues in order at the extreme.
Works for me, where do we vote?
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:07:00 -
[2650]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Dire Radiant
That it was a portrayed as a feature in the guide shows that it is not actually a bug at all.
No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
It is irrelevant whether ôghostö training was intentional or not. What is relevant is that it HAS been used as a game feature and has been advertised as such.
www.eve-players.com |
Jocho
Caldari
Warped Mining
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:07:00 -
[2651]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho
If this is so, then please, please, please enlighten everyone with how ghost training is "unfair" and causes an "inbalance" with eve
Sorry... I don't think you've got any right to rage over them cancelling your free lunch and so therefore I must believe and explain how ghost training was unbalancing? Did that seem to make sense when you were typing it?
As it happens the reason ghost training was problematic from a balance sense is that it enables people who metagame a significant advantage in skill point accumulation over people who actually play the game. (For the same amount of money invested a metagamer exploiting ghost training can earn many times more sp.) Clear? Of course, even were that not true it still doesn't translate into your right to ghost train until the end of time.
You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve. And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants. This is the point of the outrage though, as SP's are a time based leveling system, not a grind for exp system, meaning that CCP have raised the price on leveling for a bogus reason. Everyone has a right to ghost train as CCP openly allowed it and sold eve with that being one of it's main features!
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Ratio Legis
Slacker Industries
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:07:00 -
[2652]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Dire Radiant
That it was a portrayed as a feature in the guide shows that it is not actually a bug at all.
No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Oddly enough, you still choose to conveniently ignore any comment contradicting that.
Let me illustrate to you exactly how unintended the feature is. You have this, like, a switch. It can turn the feature on or off. At the start you have the feature - maybe unintendedly - on, on both Tranquility and Serenity. Then you flip the switch on Serenity, but don't flip it on Tranquility, taking the time to explain to people who were alarmed that your switch might affect Tranquility too, that you are not in fact using it on Tranquility and that they should not make 130+ page threads because of that. You make it very clear to them that you consciously didn't flip your switch.
Then some time later you come back, flip the switch and say "hey, last time I didn't intend to not flip the switch, it was an UNINTENDED FEATURE, but I'm fixing that now". And then you act surprised people yell "bullshit".
You can juggle with semantics til tomorrow, musing on whether documentation states intent for features described or not (though there's a place for unintended features in software documentation, usually called "known issues", and said feature wasn't listed under such heading), but once you start consciously supporting and publicizing your decision to keep a feature, you can no longer claim it's unintended.
So take your trolling, stow it somewhere and go annoy somebody else. This whole mess is bad enough without you helping.
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Suboran
Gallente
Victory Not Vengeance
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:08:00 -
[2653]
If this was a 'bug' why did it take 5 years to fix
If this was a 'bug' why was it promoted as a game feature
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:08:00 -
[2654]
Originally by: Creepin
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
No. It was an unintended feature which was, in effect, a bug. Documenting it doesn't change that.
Oh, cmon, the bug that was unfixable for bloody five years and coincidentally got fixed at this exact moment, mwahaha
Coincidence takes two things. What's the other thing happening "at this exact moment" that makes it a conspiracy?
And, to be clear, nobody said it was "unfixable". It was merely not fixed until now.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:10:00 -
[2655]
Wow... Took 4 clicks of the reply to topic link for it to work.
CCP, fix your forum software or I am unsubbing all of my 1 accounts, except for my main!
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
chotaire
Caldari
The Rising Stars
Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:10:00 -
[2656]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho
If this is so, then please, please, please enlighten everyone with how ghost training is "unfair" and causes an "inbalance" with eve
Sorry... I don't think you've got any right to rage over them cancelling your free lunch and so therefore I must believe and explain how ghost training was unbalancing? Did that seem to make sense when you were typing it?
As it happens the reason ghost training was problematic from a balance sense is that it enables people who metagame a significant advantage in skill point accumulation over people who actually play the game. (For the same amount of money invested a metagamer exploiting ghost training can earn many times more sp.) Clear? Of course, even were that not true it still doesn't translate into your right to ghost train until the end of time.
Catherine, this ain't getting you a job with CCP. And you won't get free items neither. I've been following your posts for quite some time now and to me you are just someone who keeps repeating that you are against everyone else, but that doesn't even make you an anti-hero.
I could've replied to each of your posts and proven them wrong or off-topic, but this is just a waste of time to invest into your hidden trolling attempts. All your future posts I will just skip reading and I hope others will follow. So much attention for nothing, duh...
It doesnt make me wonder you are either posting from one of your alts or stay alone because everyone else disagrees. The fact that you are still member of Imperial Academy after 1 year and 10 months speaks for your attitude - and for itself.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:11:00 -
[2657]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
What is relevant is that it HAS been used as a game feature and has been advertised as such.
Describing, in the player guide, the mechanism by which skill points accumulate is NOT "advertising ghost training it as a feature".
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Thorindor
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:11:00 -
[2658]
The underhanded way CCP has tried to sneak the removal of ghost training in under the radar and then tried to cover up the outrage of almost all the customer base is shocking. The customer business relationship can be more important then the product, while I don't care about the removal of ghost training, CCP's behavior is sickening. I had 3 account, then after the crap, not the changes to the game, they are fine for the most part, I dropped one. The way CCP is going soon it will be 0. Go ahead and **** us all off, without us your screwed. |
floater666
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:12:00 -
[2659]
Originally by: Xeronn
you ****in whining emorage quiters
GO AWAY
Why would you ghosttrain , when EvE is such an awessome never-boring game, and , over the course of this year, CCP has brought us so many AWESSOME features and improvements to keep us all interested
- We got an outstanding massive expansion, featuring amazing err...features, that took years and years of carefull planing and coding
- We got regula updates on such crucial features like walking in stations
-we even got a first step twards fixing lag
-massive improvenets cattering to the peacefull players , and promises for even more such improvements so the entire playerbase can be happy and cheerfull
-we even had ellections and WOOT new elections coming up.
With ALL this, the only reason you come back to eve is to enjoy a few shiny SP?! Shame on you !!! emoragequiters, when CCP works so hard to improve the game lately
I don`t even want your stuff, the PvE side of EvE is so awesssome that it keeps me addicted hours and hours at a time, i have all the stuff i need and CCP will make sure i never lose it unles i err..enter the contested lands...so keep your stuff and quit
(sidenote : if you wanna flame on this please do the enviroment a favor and just stop breathing, sorry im all out of sarcasm detectors)
I will miss intelligent players like the author of the quote, but I have had enough of CCP calling speaking of "future" implemented features as game improvements and nerfs as buffs. Luckily I have never chaged off my RL social life for a video game social life so leaving is easy.
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Rafus
Dawn of Fire
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:13:00 -
[2660]
This will have definitely been posted before but http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0810/lie.jpg .Yeah thats really a bug ccp.
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CIA1
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:14:00 -
[2661]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: ViolenTUK
What is relevant is that it HAS been used as a game feature and has been advertised as such.
Describing, in the player guide, the mechanism by which skill points accumulate is NOT "advertising ghost training it as a feature".
You do work for C.C.P.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:14:00 -
[2662]
Originally by: Jocho
You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
Originally by: Jocho
And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants.
You don't understand. A ghost trainer who has two accounts (for example) and alternates every month which one is active and which inactive can generate twice as many skill points per dollar as a person who plays the game normally.
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Catherine Frasier
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:15:00 -
[2663]
Originally by: chotaire
I could've replied to each of your posts and proven them wrong or off-topic, but this is just a waste of time to invest into your hidden trolling attempts.
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Carsidava
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:15:00 -
[2664]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: ViolenTUK
What is relevant is that it HAS been used as a game feature and has been advertised as such.
Describing, in the player guide, the mechanism by which skill points accumulate is NOT "advertising ghost training it as a feature".
Nor does it make it a bug. Please post proof that CCP considered this a bug (in those words) before yesterday's announcements. |
Bai ul
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:15:00 -
[2665]
Strike
20-30 oct i will not play
Take care CCP, this is not the way things should be done!
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Cheyenne Shadowborn
Caldari
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:15:00 -
[2666]
Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 14/10/2008 21:17:27
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled.
Unlike the first go CCP had at this, I appreciate this honest explaination. Thanks CCP.
Edit: Although calling it a "bug" is still ridiculous - it was either a design decision or plain oversight.
--
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:15:00 -
[2667]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Describing, in the player guide, the mechanism by which skill points accumulate is NOT "advertising ghost training it as a feature".
Describing a trait, facet or aspect of a mechanic in a public form is an advertisement of a feature.
www.eve-players.com |
Allen Ramses
Caldari
Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:16:00 -
[2668]
I am crying in a thread!
____________________
Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK.
Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. |
ISIAM
|
Posted - 2008.10.14 21:17:00 -
[2669]
Originally by: Catherine Frasier
Originally by: Jocho
You completely missed the point that Ghost Training was a intentional feature of eve.
It wasn't.
Originally by: Jocho
And your idea that someone can earn many more SP's is ludicrous. Maybe a million more tops due to implants.
You don't understand. A ghost trainer who has two accounts (for example) and alternates every month which one is active and which inactive can generate twice as many skill points per dollar as a person who plays the game normally.
Oh, so you've done it before?
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Mallikan
Gallente
Plundering Penguins
Anarchy.
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Posted - 2008.10.14 21:17:00 -
[2670]
Originally by: Chaos Incarnate
Quote:
CCP may find it necessary on occasion to make changes to or reset certain parameters of the persistent game world mechanics, interface or features of EVE Online in order to maintain game balance and enhance playability or performance for its subscribers. These changes may affect or cause setbacks for the characters you've created.
http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp
Mhm.
You sir, winner of the internets, win the internets. :)
---
lol.. I messed up.
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