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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Cincannatus	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:22:00 - [1] Cause a decline in Character prices? I'd love to pick up a cheap toon...Or are they just whining like normal???
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:23:00 - [2] Moar Whinage, nothing else...
Moirae Arachnea	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:26:00 - [3] They are just whining because they are getting their EVE on EASY taken away from them. MA
Tippia Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:26:00 - [4] More importantly: will they do the sane and proper thing and give me all their stuff?
Cincannatus	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:33:00 - [5] jeez. that sucks. im a 'new' player with like 6-7 mn Sp....and it kinda sucks that there are people always ahead of me in SP.... but i mean....i cant even afford a toon.... maybe at half price..i'd be open....and all these people saying lovely stuff like minus3 accounts got me all excited... even though the maths behind people not paying for accounts but using the ghost trains kinda escapes me. Damn it must be terrible to be poor in real life and not have 10 pounds to spare a month to spare for a game.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Tippia More importantly: will they do the sane and proper thing and give me all their stuff? I asked first __________ Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail?
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Cincannatus Cause a decline in Character prices? I'd love to pick up a cheap toon...Or are they just whining like normal??? Nope, because an account has to be active for the character to be sold. However those websites - and we all know who they are - where eve accounts can be purchased... try shopping there.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr EMPERIAL ARMOR	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:39:00 - [8] Theres only one thing I know for sure: Tortun Nahme is going to die from alcohol poisoning. He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:43:00 - [9] Originally by: TYCONDEROGA Theres only one thing I know for sure: Tortun Nahme is going to die from alcohol poisoning. The only thing stopping me from logging my alts to post more threads to expedite this is that I wouldn't get a killmail.
TYCONDEROGA Amarr EMPERIAL ARMOR	Posted - 2008.10.13 23:44:00 - [10] He who defends Everything, Defends Nothing!

Armoured C Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:01:00 - [11] we need less winage on this forums ... i hope they do leave =) no i dont give me there stuff and then leave.. that a better alterantive The EvE LifeÖ Blog bringing you the blogs that really matter working in conjunction with EVE Network NewsÖ
ollobrains2 Gallente New Eve Order Holdings	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:42:00 - [12] combats some of the gold farmers to. Have to pay either gtc-etc or accounts now
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 00:51:00 - [13] Originally by: ollobrains2 combats some of the gold farmers to. Have to pay either gtc-etc or accounts now Please explain how an ISK farmer makes more money from an inactive account than one which is, oh I don't know USED TO MAKE ISK 23/7. HELLO MCFLY! Speeeeeeeeeaking of ISK farmers. If the poor ickle database was under so much load then perhaps we could all help by pointing out some areas of excessive demand. Starting with Igunn.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:01:00 - [14] I've got jello left but who has something to mix it with? Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:03:00 - [15] Ban everybody who uses the word "toon".
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Tortun Nahme I've got jello left but who has something to mix it with? Delicious fruit pieces? __________ Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Umbra Synergy	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:08:00 - [17] while those are probably better for me, and could contribute to mking sure im not sick tomorrow they aren't any fun Applebabe ate my signature :( but the fish hat forgives! Nemotology is the EvE religion of choice!
Jimer Lins Gallente Noir. Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 01:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Cincannatus Cause a decline in Character prices? I'd love to pick up a cheap toon...Or are they just whining like normal??? Just whining. God, I really wish they'd quit and go away for real. That'd make my millenium. Corp and Personal killboard
Darkeen Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.14 03:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Gamer4liff Ban everybody who uses the word "toon". Does this include you? Regards, Jason Brisbane
SharpMango 14th Legion	Posted - 2008.10.14 09:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Darkeen Originally by: Gamer4liff Ban everybody who uses the word "toon". Does this include you? I think gamer4liff just got introduced to Godel's incompleteness theorem =D

Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 09:15:00 - [21] No, we "whiners" ("whiner" in this context meaning people who have been lied to and screwed over repeatedly by a certain company) will continue to play, most likely. Well, about 75% of us. Minus our alts. You see, the consistent customer base of CCP has been the enduring users - you know, the cap ship pilots, the maxed-out-in-one-ship-type people, etc. We are also the ones who usually like to PvP and have alt accounts so we can earn money and cross train... ...except that... CCP has decided to treat us to a continuing serving of crap. So, yeah, maybe I'll stick around...I have friends in-game who I actually enjoy playing with and whatnot. I'm certainly not playing because I like CCP. In fact, if I thought it would do any good I'd be making little effigies of their company and burning them on little altars. Alright, not that extreme. But every time I start to think well of them again, they do something either A) incredibly bone-headed and mean, or B) incredibly mean and boneheaded. It's getting old. -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.14 09:38:00 - [22] Is there any sort of graph showing subscription numbers over time? It'd be interesting to see if any of the controversial nerfs actually did cause a wave of account cancellations. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.14 09:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Cincannatus Cause a decline in Character prices? I'd love to pick up a cheap toon...Or are they just whining like normal??? It's more likely the character prices will go up. Less people will ghosttrain alts for isk. I know at least a few players who kept their pvp expenses supported by character training/selling on alt accounts. Those guys will close their extra account and either sell GTC's (they paid for chara transfer before, could as well buy GTC's and sell for isk now), start to farm isk, or quit.
Johann Jeneau Gallente Cricas Portuguese Korp	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:15:00 - [24] I never did ghost training before but was going to do because of GTC prices, anyway i have to thank CCP for open my eyes, it's stupid to metagame, i will not be quiting (unless my friends quit, then i will quit for sure) but from my 3 accounts i will simple keep 2 chars i really need in one account. And no i wont sell the other chars (1 almost capital pilot meh, the other a perfect miner meh meh), never know when a friend or i will need them. What i really want now is that CCP keeps with this crusade of making Eve a fairer world and ends the GTC for ISK selling, simply the most unfair stuff in this game by far! I like my steaks bloody as hell
Shen Li	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:28:00 - [25] Same-o. I was thinking about starting another alt for fun on a Trial account, Ghost-train him for a bit then activate the account for a month and transfer it. But obviously that's no longer an option and I won't pay a third account just for that. So in my case the Ghost nerf lost 1-2 months subscriptions I might have paid otherwise :)
Grarr Dexx Amarr The Cosa Nostra La Cosa Nostra Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:38:00 - [26] Demand will stay the same, but offer will go down... They'll start raising like this, and I'll never get my revelation or archon alt for a decent price like this!
Twinme	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Twinme on 14/10/2008 10:46:54 I was going to reactivate a few accounts at end of October as their long skills would have been finishing by that time. Now I don't care to reactivate them. carrier pilot...
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 10:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 14/10/2008 10:51:46 Would be much more interesting if CCP knew how much SP had been gained via 'ghost training', removed it, and gave it to the currently active, paid-up accounts by divided it up equally between them all. ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Narcogen Gallente IBO CORP	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:05:00 - [29] Originally by: Shen Li Same-o. I was thinking about starting another alt for fun on a Trial account, Ghost-train him for a bit then activate the account for a month and transfer it. But obviously that's no longer an option and I won't pay a third account just for that. So in my case the Ghost nerf lost 1-2 months subscriptions I might have paid otherwise :) I am consistently amazed at the economic knowledge displayed by the players of a game that has such a vibrant economy. For every account they lose that is ghost training, CCP loses X months of GTCs where for every fiscal year X < 12 (since otherwise there would be no point). In fact it is more than likely significantly less than 12 or else the advantage gained by ghost training would be minimal. So for the quantity of ghost trainers, there is a percentage that won't give up their gains to date and will convert to full accounts, and there is a percentage that are doing the ghost training because they have more accounts than they can afford to keep active, and they will let those characters lapse. CCP has to have calculated that the value of X is such that even if a low percentage of ghost trainers convert, that the increased revenue generated by a small number of permanent accounts more than compensates for the lost revenue of ghost training accounts that are only active a small percentage of the time. In addition whatever system resources are consumed by those inactive ghost training accounts can be reclaimed at no cost, since they were generating minimal income anyway and will no longer be consuming resources. CCP has presented the system resource issue as being primary, with gameplay fairness second, while largely ignoring the revenue issue. Revenue is clearly the primary issue here, and I think most of the pushback CCP are getting over this is related to that fact. Still after five years I think CCP probably have a very good idea of how much revenue they will lose from ghost trainers, how much they will gain from the smaller percentage that activate their accounts and keep them activated to train, and how many will emoragequit. Yet people still insist that this will kill Eve, that CCP do not know what they are doing, and that this move will backfire. Based on what, I wonder?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Cincannatus Cause a decline in Character prices? I'd love to pick up a cheap toon...Or are they just whining like normal??? Account has to be active to transfer the char. Transferring char costs RL money, only gain is isk, someone quitting isn't going to need the isk. Disabling ghost training means it will cost more RL money to train a high SP Char. The actual result will likely be that legitimate char prices actually go up. Illegitimate ones possibly down.

Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Narcogen CCP has to have calculated that the value of X is such that even if a low percentage of ghost trainers convert, that the increased revenue generated by a small number of permanent accounts more than compensates for the lost revenue of ghost training accounts that are only active a small percentage of the time. In addition whatever system resources are consumed by those inactive ghost training accounts can be reclaimed at no cost, since they were generating minimal income anyway and will no longer be consuming resources. It's a complete and utter LIE that ghost training accounts take up any extra resources. The only resource they take up is space in the database, the same as all inactive accounts, training or not. More resources will actually be taken up to stop ghost training, than it is taking up, since currently there is no need to check if skills train until you login, thus only accounts that login take resources. This will now take resources for accounts that don't login, and aren't active. What CCP is trying to say with this, is that they'd rather a customer that didn't actually login, at the expense of having several customers that may reactivate after an absence due to the 'gift' they get for resubscribing. Quote: CCP has to have calculated that the value of X You give them too much credit. They don't even know what X is, they can't even get Y right. Quote: CCP has presented the system resource issue as being primary, with gameplay fairness second, while largely ignoring the revenue issue. Revenue is clearly the primary issue here, and I think most of the pushback CCP are getting over this is related to that fact. CCP, expenses in ISK (which dropped), Revenue in USD/Euro, which means that in real terms their revenue should have increased lately. If it hasn't it's because people are leaving the game. I suspect they are hugely, because they think the game sucks or they just don't have the spare cash, or can no longer afford GTCs. The result of this unfortunately may be a short term gain, this month. But it will be a huge long term loss, as players who thought about quitting but kept a skill training, now bite the bullet and never come back. I guarantee you, if they come back for just one month extra, they have paid 100x what keeping their char on the server forever costs CCP. Quote: Yet people still insist..., that CCP do not know what they are doing. I can give a lot of examples of that. I have an implant in my head that has done nothing since it was introduced over a year ago, and while this would be incredibly simple to just reimburse for, they have insisted that it would be fixed soon for over a year. Next patch even (despite 2 major expansions since then). Quote: CCP has presented the system resource issue as being primary, with gameplay fairness second, while largely ignoring the revenue issue. Revenue is clearly the primary issue here Revenue is the ONLY issue here. If it was game play fairness they would remove ghost RP gain etc, which actually effects other players. Skill training does not effect the economy at all. The system resource simply doesn't exist, and is a blatant lie. It's all about the money, and the money that they get this month, rather than their overall money long term.
Aclyn Seriy Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:12:00 - [32] This whole issue is one giant crock of shit. CCP just want to make money, which given the state of their economy is pretty fair imo. The ragequitters most likely wont go anywhere, they just like to scream alot. The GTC sellers will wet themselves with excitement and promptly price themselves out of business and in 6 months this will be history. Just another day in EVE. Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:15:00 - [33] Funny thing is, why would CCP say "no more off-pay training" since they know that people would cancel accounts due to it and it wouldn't bring new customers to compensate. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:30:00 - [34] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: TYCONDEROGA Theres only one thing I know for sure: Tortun Nahme is going to die from alcohol poisoning. The only thing stopping me from logging my alts to post more threads to expedite this is that I wouldn't get a killmail. I still dont understand why people think ghost training is fair. You using a service that you pay for, without paying for it. When your account goes inactive, your character should be completely frozen. Period. Thats just the way it is, and there is no argument. It's a fair business practice. If you want to cancel your accounts because CCP wants to make money (that it rightfully earns) please, go ahead and cancel them. At the very least the whiners actually cancelling would remove whines from the forums! It's like... self moderation! _______________________________________ Sig? where. There's no sig here.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Funny thing is, why would CCP say "no more off-pay training" since they know that people would cancel accounts due to it and it wouldn't bring new customers to compensate. Because people won't really cancel their accounts, and smart paying customers like me who have multiple accounts that they pay for and dont use half the time anyway, look at the whiners and laugh at how pathetic (and poor) they are. And new people are still coming to eve. Eve is not dead, and its not going anywhere. SJ do a skit on ghost training for the CCP shop. I DEMANDZ IT. _______________________________________ Sig? where. There's no sig here.
Demitria Fernir Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:36:00 - [36] Character Price will skyrocket. _______________________________________________ 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101 I will Conquer My Signature Somewhere in the future 10100110010100101010011010100101001100101110101
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:37:00 - [37] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 13:38:34 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 13:37:36 Originally by: Brigsby5987 Because people won't really cancel their accounts, and smart paying customers like me who have multiple accounts that they pay for and dont use half the time anyway, look at the whiners and laugh at how pathetic (and poor) they are. And new people are still coming to eve. Eve is not dead, and its not going anywhere. SJ do a skit on ghost training for the CCP shop. I DEMANDZ IT. Yeah i know people will come to EVE and it's not dead, but removing ghost training wouldn't increase revenue as much as lessen it. Kind of why i asked the people using money as a reason to legitimize their complaints For your information; check the thread, ghosts are already there Now show me love for i see what people wants in the future and give it! My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Brigsby5987 Caldari 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 13:38:34 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 13:37:36 Originally by: Brigsby5987 Because people won't really cancel their accounts, and smart paying customers like me who have multiple accounts that they pay for and dont use half the time anyway, look at the whiners and laugh at how pathetic (and poor) they are. And new people are still coming to eve. Eve is not dead, and its not going anywhere. SJ do a skit on ghost training for the CCP shop. I DEMANDZ IT. Yeah i know people will come to EVE and it's not dead, but removing ghost training wouldn't increase revenue as much as lessen it. Kind of why i asked the people using money as a reason to legitimize their complaints For your information; check the thread, ghosts are already there Now show me love for i see what people wants in the future and give it! thats awesome. It's still completely legit to remove ghost training even if people do rage quit. Honestly if your going to rage quit over having to actually pay for a game, to train your character, then you need to take a serious step back from eve anyways. I am a poor college student making 8 an hour, living on my own, and i get no help from anyone, and even I am able to pay for multiple accounts (about 5 mmo accounts) and still put a couple hundred into savings every month. If I can do it, so can you. Unless you don't know how to make a budget _______________________________________ Sig? where. There's no sig here.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Brigsby5987 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Funny thing is, why would CCP say "no more off-pay training" since they know that people would cancel accounts due to it and it wouldn't bring new customers to compensate. Because people won't really cancel their accounts, and smart paying customers like me who have multiple accounts that they pay for and dont use half the time anyway, look at the whiners and laugh at how pathetic (and poor) they are. And new people are still coming to eve. Eve is not dead, and its not going anywhere. SJ do a skit on ghost training for the CCP shop. I DEMANDZ IT. Originally by: Jade Constantine -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No support here. I really don't see whats wrong with asking people to pay their subscriptions while training skills. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about making the change at only 48 hours notice, directly after running a promotion to encourage people to start a second account. And then lying about why they did it. And then lying about it being a bug. And then deleting proof that they lied. Do you see what's wrong with those? I'm mildly peeved about losing ghost training; I won't bother with my dread alt any more; CCP will lose the 3 or 4 1-month subscriptions it would have taken to train him and and the 20 euro transfer fee and I won't get a dread alt to help support my alliance. CCP and I both lose out here. I guess I'll have that account as insurance in case anything happens to one of my mains, or maybe I'll win the lottery and have the time and money to manage another active account. Who knows. I'm absolutely incensed by the high-handed, dishonest and extremely disrespectful way in the way that CCP removed ghost training. First we were fed some utter guff about "game balance" and "complaints", then they tried to claim that inactive characters place a high load on the database , then an outright lie that ghost training was a bug - many times disproven, including with a screen shot of Wrangler's OWN FORUM POST advising players of this feature, I mean "bug", and finally they grudgingly semi-admitted that they just want the money. We were lied to. We were treated like idiots, and told it was for our own good. We were lied to again. Dishonesty and disrespect are the issues here. Frankly this affair has destroyed what little faith I had left that CCP have a long term interest in EvE. My characters represent a very considerable investment for me, and now I'm wondering if I should realise that investment while it's still worth anything.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:04:00 - [40] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 14:06:05 Lied to? Loss of trust? Dishonesty? Disrespect? Aren't these a bit big words for people who have leeched basically free gametime? Of people who get every expansion free? Who get the game for free? You're lucky i'm not the community manager And to REALLY drive a nail in the casket; If you took the power of two offer, you have 6 months left on that "other char who won't be able to ghost train" My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.

Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:35:00 - [41] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 14:06:05 Lied to? Loss of trust? Dishonesty? Disrespect? Aren't these a bit big words for people who have leeched basically free gametime? Of people who get every expansion free? Who get the game for free? No. They are in fact the factually correct words that accurately describe what happened. Originally by: Sheriff Jones You're lucky i'm not the community manager Well thanks for putting at least some postive spin on the day's events. We are lucky and I am thankful. Originally by: Sheriff Jones And to REALLY drive a nail in the casket; If you took the power of two offer, you have 6 months left on that "other char who won't be able to ghost train" Yes, effectively increasing the cost of training an alt by removing an advertised feature immediately after running a promotion on second accounts is what many would call a "nail in the coffin". That kind of trickery - while it may not be illegal - leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. CCP have run down their reserves of player trust and goodwill and complete ****ups like this only do more damage. I used to be one of CCPs biggest defenders against their accusers, on the gound that most of the things they were being accused of were against their own obvious self-interest. I can no longer plausibly put forward this defence, even were I inclined to.
Kurt Gergard Caldari Custodes Mandati Imperii	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:52:00 - [42] About rage quiters - they won't quit theyll just cancel second accounts (i will and the second one used to be active for about 6-8 months a year ) so effectivly ccp just lost money and i think will loose a lot. ================================================ "No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:09:00 - [43] Originally by: Kurt Gergard About rage quiters - they won't quit theyll just cancel second accounts (i will and the second one used to be active for about 6-8 months a year ) so effectivly ccp just lost money and i think will loose a lot. Exactly. I have 2 alt accounts waiting to re-sub, 1 with a skill which finishes - in a piece of hilarious irony - tomorrow morning. Now I shant bother. So this decision has cost CCP 30 euros of my money. I'm not "rage quitting", I'm not "emo whining"; I've just seen the cost of training my alts approximately doubled, and decided that it's too expensive to continue doing so.
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:16:00 - [44] People rarely rage quit and stay away. CCP just erode your will to play until it's meh. Sunday night 250k accounts and around 34k were logged in thats really poor although good news for those who like real time play. But I can understand why CCP are scratching for cash after seeing their figures on another thread they're healthy at status quo but wouldn't take much to shove their head under the water. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:45:00 - [45] Stopping people from training on an inactive account seems quite silly really. Clearly the intention of someone who trains an inactive account is for them to come back to the game. This will simply harm long term players and discourage them from coming back when they take a break. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
Kalmanaka Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:47:00 - [46] The best part of this is that the bigger the rage threads get, the more justified the change is. Ghost training is being removed because so many people abuse it. The more people that cry and whine, the more CCP's decision is validated. So please, all emo ragers, keep posting. You're only reinforcing the fact that this is a necessary change. WoW is that way ---> Estimate != Reality What you want != What you get You whine != Someone cares Learn to deal with it. -Abrazzar
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:50:00 - [47] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 15:51:42 Originally by: Malcanis Yes, effectively increasing the cost of training an alt by removing an advertised feature immediately after running a promotion on second accounts is what many would call a "nail in the coffin". That kind of trickery - while it may not be illegal - leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. CCP have run down their reserves of player trust and goodwill and complete ***ups like this only do more damage. I used to be one of CCPs biggest defenders against their accusers, on the gound that most of the things they were being accused of were against their own obvious self-interest. I can no longer plausibly put forward this defence, even were I inclined to. I've looked at the manual. I've looked at the game box. I've looked at promotional videos. Promotional sites. And even newbie help section. I've yet to see this "promoted feature: You can train without paying!" And by the way, i don't count a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy as "losing all reserves for trust". And you can no longer defend the 'cause YOU got "nerfed", this doesn't make you a defender, this makes you a hypopotamus My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.*
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:01:00 - [48] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 15:51:42 Originally by: Malcanis Yes, effectively increasing the cost of training an alt by removing an advertised feature immediately after running a promotion on second accounts is what many would call a "nail in the coffin". That kind of trickery - while it may not be illegal - leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. CCP have run down their reserves of player trust and goodwill and complete **ups like this only do more damage. I used to be one of CCPs biggest defenders against their accusers, on the gound that most of the things they were being accused of were against their own obvious self-interest. I can no longer plausibly put forward this defence, even were I inclined to. I've looked at the manual. I've looked at the game box. I've looked at promotional videos. Promotional sites. And even newbie help section. I've yet to see this "promoted feature: You can train without paying!" And by the way, i don't count a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy as "losing all reserves for trust". And you can no longer defend the 'cause YOU got "nerfed", this doesn't make you a defender, this makes you a hypopotamus Oh right, you're just trolling, so it's a waste of time to try and discuss this with you. My mistake. You didn't use the feature, so you don't care that it's gone. You obviously place no value at all on truthful communication from CCP, so you don't care aboout that either. Fine, lucky you. The rest of us play EvE as a long term game where long term plans have real value. Thus changes which have long term effects are important to us - including changes in our perception of CCP's trustworthiness. Still, the fact is that CCP lied** to us about this. As in, they said something that they knew was not true. Try and Newspeak it any way you want about "crying children", but 2 days ago, this was a supported feature in their own player guide, with Dev posts in the forum advising on it's application. Now it's suddenly a "bug". I'll try and drill this through your thick little troll skull: I'm mildly annoyed at losing ghost training. I'm disgusted and disappointed about being lied to and treated like a fool by the people I need to trust to make playing the game worthwhile.. Can you see the difference between that and being "a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy".
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [49] Originally by: Kalmanaka The best part of this is that the bigger the rage threads get, the more justified the change is. Ghost training is being removed because so many people abuse it. The more people that cry and whine, the more CCP's decision is validated. So please, all emo ragers, keep posting. You're only reinforcing the fact that this is a necessary change. WoW is that way ---> Define "abuse" please.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:05:00 - [50] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:05:44 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 15:51:42 Originally by: Malcanis Yes, effectively increasing the cost of training an alt by removing an advertised feature immediately after running a promotion on second accounts is what many would call a "nail in the coffin". That kind of trickery - while it may not be illegal - leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. CCP have run down their reserves of player trust and goodwill and complete ***ups like this only do more damage. I used to be one of CCPs biggest defenders against their accusers, on the gound that most of the things they were being accused of were against their own obvious self-interest. I can no longer plausibly put forward this defence, even were I inclined to. I've looked at the manual. I've looked at the game box. I've looked at promotional videos. Promotional sites. And even newbie help section. I've yet to see this "promoted feature: You can train without paying!" And by the way, i don't count a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy as "losing all reserves for trust". And you can no longer defend the 'cause YOU got "nerfed", this doesn't make you a defender, this makes you a hypopotamus Oh right, you're just trolling, so it's a waste of time to try and discuss this with you. My mistake. this was a supported feature in their own player guide First, try to not call someone a troll and actually read/understand/answer what is written. Second, show this guide? It's not a promoted feature, you are crying because YOU got nerfed, you are a hypocrite because "can't defend anymore" and there's nothing trolling about it. You're complaining because you lost a free candy feature which shoudln't have been there in the first place, now it's going byebye, why would you, by any gods above, plan your future on this "feature". How did CCP lie? Show something except you spewing from the mouth like a rapid dog, then i'll listen. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.*

Fistme	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:07:00 - [51] Originally by: Kalmanaka The best part of this is that the bigger the rage threads get, the more justified the change is. Ghost training is being removed because so many people abuse it. The more people that cry and whine, the more CCP's decision is validated. So please, all emo ragers, keep posting. You're only reinforcing the fact that this is a necessary change. WoW is that way ---> This I find it just amazing how many people sit here and speculate how this is a bad idea because CCP will lose money. The reality of it is that they are upset that their meta gaming EZMODE way of earning money in eve has been nerfed into oblivion as it should be. CryMoar! I suggest that all of you step back and think about the players who have only had 1 account, who don't meta game with NPC corp alts all over 0.0, and who don't abuse ghost training to gain a HUGE advantage as far as in game isk goes. The fact that ghost training was allowed in the first place disgusts me... Better late than never i guess...
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:07:00 - [52] Originally by: Sheriff Jones I've looked at the manual. I've looked at the game box. I've looked at promotional videos. Promotional sites. And even newbie help section. I've yet to see this "promoted feature: You can train without paying!" And by the way, i don't count a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy as "losing all reserves for trust". And you can no longer defend the 'cause YOU got "nerfed", this doesn't make you a defender, this makes you a hypopotamus Well, see, here's what's funny... I've never really ghost-trained. It wasn't a big selling point to me. But I'm still angry, because this move seems - like the Chribba one, which CCP would have happily continued save for the explosion of rage - to be aimed purely at reducing customer enjoyment of the game. I used ghost training to encourage my friends to come to Eve, and it WAS advertised as a feature, both by the players guide and devs, not to mention other players. It was a little extra "we care" that kept people coming back to Eve again and again. You say that you don't think CCP is doing this for the money, since it won't benefit them. Fine. I say they're doing it because they enjoy hurting the players, then. Fair enough? It's the other logical choice. It's sad when being a money-grubbing idiot is the better way people could think of you. -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:09:00 - [53] Originally by: Malcanis I'll try and drill this through your thick little troll skull: I'm mildly annoyed at losing ghost training. I'm disgusted and disappointed about being lied to and treated like a fool by the people I need to trust to make playing the game worthwhile.. This. Right here. Well said, Malcanis. -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:11:00 - [54] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:16:35 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:11:41 But people can't seriously be this annoyed/disappointed by a removed feature. Hell, if they said "we're removing mining", i'd understand people going off the tangent but THIS? A feature people use to not play. A feature that gives advancement without even paying for the game "you love"? No. And where oh where was this advertised or used as a selling point? I don't usually go against this sort of things, and undersand people getting podded off about their features being removed/changed, but this just seems so...ludicrous to be upset about. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Johann Jeneau Gallente Cricas Portuguese Korp	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:18:00 - [55] Edited by: Johann Jeneau on 14/10/2008 16:18:04 I, like others will not rage quit, i never used ghost training but was nice to know it was possible once i really need it (i was going to use it this month lolol), but i will keep only 1 account with all the chars i need instead of 3 (wich i had been paying all this time) in protest, why? Because in my 2 years of playing the game i convinced a few times some friends to come back to the game because they had some new toy available, i know for sure next time they get burned of Eve (not that hard) they wont comeback, and this probably will make me eventually leave the game for good. Not such a bad thing but it's sad to leave the game (or not coming back) because of game dev. instead of some RL reason. This was a nice feature of the game in my book, and one of my selling points in my mouth-to-mouth marketing (yes i was that much of a fanboy) not anymore unfortunatelly. I like my steaks bloody as hell
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Sheriff Jones And where oh where was this advertised or used as a selling point? In the freaking player's guide. And in the words of the devs themselves. Of course, those are gone by this morning, thanks to frantic editing by CCP. But people made sure to take screenshots. Go check the threads in the Information Portal, which roughly resembles a charnel house of anti-CCP sentiment right now. Sheriff Jones, I like you, so this isn't a flame, but you aren't getting the major reason CCP is being attacked for this. It's not because they removed ghost training. It's because they handled it with such contempt, disdain, and dishonesty. About half the people in the other threads were saying that they would have understood completely if CCP simply had to raise the price a dollar or two or had simply said "we need more money". Instead we got bullshit about balance or whatever, then given a damage control blog that was even worse. And all of it was filled with lies. What's so hard about saying "we're removing a feature to help us make more money/make it easier on ourselves/whatever"? -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:21:00 - [57] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:23:29 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:23:03 Originally by: Vikarion What's so hard about saying "we're removing a feature to help us make more money/make it easier on ourselves/whatever"? And what if it's not? What if it's not lies and grand schemes to make more iskies? What if, gods forbid, people are making a mountain out of a sandcastle, kicked down sandcastle, washed away by rain? Oh and the screenshot? Well, it said what was the truth at that time: Skills will continue to train when your account is inactive. Now it's not. It's like saying "They lied about mines!", when they are no longer in the game. Or snowballs. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Esmenet	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:21:00 - [58] Edited by: Esmenet on 14/10/2008 16:21:05 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:18:04 But people can't seriously be this annoyed/disappointed by a removed feature(this particular). Hell, if they said "we're removing mining", i'd understand people going off the tangent but THIS? A feature people use to not play. A feature that gives advancement without even paying for the game "you love"? No. And where oh where was this advertised or used as a selling point? I don't usually go against this sort of things, and undersand people getting podded off about their features being removed/changed, but this just seems so...ludicrous to be upset about. I've used this feature, as much as the next guy, if i wanted to take a break i'd put a loooong skill on, gods know i got some, but i'm not even slightly annoyed at it being removed. Heck, i was more annoyed at hearing mines were removed and i never even used them. I'm one of the few that only have one account. But the way this game keeps on pushing you towards using multiple accounts, and even run such things as power of two to encourage you to use multiple accounts i can understand the frustration of effectively increasing the cost of training up a decent alt. Especially when its been seen as a feature for so long.
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:29:00 - [59] Originally by: Malcanis You didn't use the feature, so you don't care that it's gone. You obviously place no value at all on truthful communication from CCP, so you don't care aboout that either. Fine, lucky you. The rest of us play EvE as a long term game where long term plans have real value. Thus changes which have long term effects are important to us - including changes in our perception of CCP's trustworthiness. Still, the fact is that CCP lied to us about this. As in, they said something that they knew was not true. Try and Newspeak it any way you want about "crying children", but 2 days ago, this was a supported feature in their own player guide, with Dev posts in the forum advising on it's application. Now it's suddenly a "bug". I'll try and drill this through your thick little troll skull: I'm mildly annoyed at losing ghost training. I'm disgusted and disappointed about being lied to and treated like a fool by the people I need to trust to make playing the game worthwhile.. Can you see the difference between that and being "a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy". I have only used the ghost training when my account was canceled due to a billing error, other than that I had planned on using it when I got to BS 5. I'm disappointed that they did away with that. I'm livid that we were lied to by a company who we've all brought up to its superstar status. It's not the game, folks; Eve has never been about anything but the pilots who fly their pixilated starships across a pretend universe. Now we are not the focus. Fine. But the company is going against its promises and its word. They have every right to make money in the way they see fit, and I (as a customer) have every right to give my money to who I wish (which is usually the company with the most comprehensive product). So, I am going to be closing my one and only account. Not a rage quit. More of the rat leaving the ship before all of the human cattle realize its sinking and do the same. It's been happening for some time. Now comes the CCCP reform machine. No thanks. NO EvE IZ NOT DIING It IS changing, however, and I am no longer comfortable with the business relationship that is unfolding. I have transferred ownership of my corp to a trusted friend and will be using my last days to do some sightseeing and some kinetic diplomacy out in the nether regions of New Eden. Should the old ways of player focus return, I may as well.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:32:00 - [60] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:33:32 I'm no fanboi, even if many claim me to be, i just try to push the other side into view as much as the haters. Just want that to be clear. And yes, i'd complain if i didn't feel that "MMOs change by default, trust nothing to stay", which is a rule that all MMO companies should say, many times, as it doesn't seem to stick to peoples minds. But... Originally by: Vikarion And it's just another nail in the coffin of their credibility. You know, like their statements about hi-sec not being safe (incoming insurance/war-dec/etc nerfs), their statements about devs not affecting the game (t20/GM cheating), treating older players dedicated to the community like shit (Chribba), and a variety of others. Sure, some of those are open to interpretation, but altogether it paints a pretty darn unattractive view of their game. t20 was fair enough, but it was handled, and new things put into place to prevent it. Wasn't CCP, was an individual. Hi-sec isn't safe, but it isn't a pirate free mayhem zone either. Still the same place, just with more logical things i would've put in ages ago. Like not reieving insurance for suiciding. Come on. Chribba, mistake, sure, but was fixed in less then 24 hours. Again, come on... The ONLY reason people are getting ***ed off at "no communication" and "poor service", is that CCP have been proving 300% MORE service then other MMO companies. And because EVE is so much more hardcore loved by its fans. Now that they actually are moving an inch towards a normal company, the spoiled people are coming out the woodworks. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.*

Korizan	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:33:00 - [61] I just got one or two questions. Where does it officially say that when you CANCEL your account you will continue to train. Where was this put in as an official selling feature of the game ? Just curious cause I know I have must have missed this message or promotion.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:35:00 - [62] Originally by: Korizan I just got one or two questions. Where does it officially say that when you CANCEL your account you will continue to train. Where was this put in as an official selling feature of the game ? Just curious cause I know I have must have missed this message or promotion. They have screenshots on information portal where the player guide says "training will continue", now that it's going to be gone, they removed it. Only seems logical, they told the truth when it was active, now they removed it 'cause it's no longer viable. Just spun out of control as "horrible lies and treachery". My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:41:00 - [63] Edited by: Malcanis on 14/10/2008 16:41:07 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:18:04 But people can't seriously be this annoyed/disappointed by a removed feature(this particular). Hell, if they said "we're removing mining", i'd understand people going off the tangent but THIS? A feature people use to not play. A feature that gives advancement without even paying for the game "you love"? No. And where oh where was this advertised or used as a selling point? I don't usually go against this sort of things, and undersand people getting podded off about their features being removed/changed, but this just seems so...ludicrous to be upset about. I've used this feature, as much as the next guy, if i wanted to take a break i'd put a loooong skill on, gods know i got some, but i'm not even slightly annoyed at it being removed. Heck, i was more annoyed at hearing mines were removed and i never even used them. Put it this way: CCP never intended jet-can mining. Let's imagine what would happen if they announced they were removing that after all these years? You'd be in favour of this change? Local was never intended as an intel channel - where are your posts supporting the removal of this functionality? Hi-sec missions were never intended to be the sole focus of the game for anyone - don't I recall you making a post or two on this subject? And God, can't you understand this simple, basic concept: CCP LIED TO US. THAT'S WHAT I'M ANGRY AND CONCERNED ABOUT. These were the lies: Ghost training is a bug - Lie: it was documented in their own player guide and in dev posts as a feature. Screenshots abound, including a post by Wrangler, the very dev who wrote the blog. Ghost training was removed "for balance reasons" in response to "complaints" - Lie: there have been no complaints about it, and if it was anything to do with balance, then RPs, market orders, research jobs etc would also be cancelled. Also they would stop GTC for ISK sales and character trading which are vastly greater in their effects on balance if that's what they're concerned about. Ghost training uses up server resources - Lie: this one is too stupid to bother detailing. An old 386 with a pair of 2Gb hard drives could do the job with resources to spare. If database resources were remotely an issue here, then they'd free up more resources by banning a single one of the macro-haulers/miners/ratters/missioners that infest systems like Igunn and countless others. 3 huge blatant, obvious lies, that are even worse because we're obviously assumed to be stupid enough to believe them.
Estagado	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:42:00 - [64] Edited by: Estagado on 14/10/2008 16:46:07 So what happens to people who have 4 accounts and 2 are active but they are ghost training the other 2. I barely even play the game now yet i have 2 accounts active at all time training them and occasionally i reactivate the other 2. That mean i know will have to lose the 2 accounts because i cant afford to pay 60 euros to ccp alone per month but only 30 however i occiasionally payed the extra money to train the other accounts. So there are is no way iam gonna leave my mains untrained and since i barely even play the game now i might as well deactivate all. Thats seems a bit unfair to me and a bad way to respect people who are playing this game for 4+ years. Anyway i think long term this will harm the game.
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:44:00 - [65] Originally by: Sheriff Jones The ONLY reason people are getting ***ed off at "no communication" and "poor service", is that CCP have been proving 300% MORE service then other MMO companies. And because EVE is so much more hardcore loved by its fans. Wrong. Blizzard, for example, is about 300% better than CCP at CS, game play, and bug eradication. I'm here because I like spaceships and PvP, not because CCP is so much better than other companies. Yes, Eve has free expansions. Good thing, since I certainly wouldn't pay for them. Adding a few ships to the database or a copy-paste region here and there isn't all that beneficial to me, thanks anyway. Come to think of it, Guild Wars is also less buggy and much more friendly than Eve. So are most of the other "mainstream" MMO's out there. If CCP wants to become a mainstream MMO, fine. But I don't think it's too much to ask that we than expect the same competence and honesty from them that we used to have, MUCH LESS what we see from other companies! That last MMO I saw pulling these kind of stunts was SOE with SWG. Yeah, I said it. And while this is certainly no NGE, it's in the same spirit in how it has been relayed to players. I mean, they first run a Power of 2 promotion. Then they remove and lie about ghost training. Now they disable account services (went "down" my ass - bloody convenient timing) so you can't cancel your account save by petition. Which will take days or weeks. And you think there is anything even mildly acceptable about their decisions? -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Obermier Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:44:00 - [66] Confirmed - I'm the declining character price in the OP
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:44:00 - [67] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:46:02 Originally by: Malcanis Ghost training is a bug - Lie: it was documented in their own player guide and in dev posts as a feature. Screenshots abound, including a post by Wrangler, the very dev who wrote the blog. Umm, unintended feature means a "side effect that isn't necessarily harmful". It wasn't. It wasn't a feature either. The screenshots show only that it was a documented truth at that time. It isn't anymore. The devblog shows nothing about "balance", or i missed it. You don't also know how the servers work, how x-ty thousand inactive accounts are handled etc. These are all, very much, excuses to bring some "lie" claim to a thing that limits your off-paying gamestyle. And one mroe time, since you so like to say "try toget this troll!!", it wasn't a lie, it was a fact when ghost training ws viable, it's not anymore, it's removed from guide. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Sheriff Jones t20 was fair enough, but it was handled, and new things put into place to prevent it. Wasn't CCP, was an individual. Considering he still works on CCP after all this, no it was not an individual, it was CCP. CCP didn't fire him, and neither have undone what he did and the measurable consequences of his actions. In my book that means they automatically condoned with him. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:47:00 - [69] Originally by: Sheriff Jones They have screenshots on information portal where the player guide says "training will continue", now that it's going to be gone, they removed it. Only seems logical, they told the truth when it was active, now they removed it 'cause it's no longer viable. Just spun out of control as "horrible lies and treachery". ^^ this, tbh ^^ The devblog contained some pretty heavy exaggerations and vagueness, and I don't fault them for trying to be diplomatic and somewhat two-faced when players were screaming at them based on the change If you had asked me two days ago whether the ghosting nerf would have caused this much drama, I doubt I'd have said it would __________ Sig by Neth'Rae Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? FFFFFF
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:47:00 - [70] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Sheriff Jones t20 was fair enough, but it was handled, and new things put into place to prevent it. Wasn't CCP, was an individual. Considering he still works on CCP after all this, no it was not an individual, it was CCP. CCP didn't fire him, and neither have undone what he did and the measurable consequences of his actions. In my book that means they automatically condoned with him. IIRC CCP had already internally disciplined him when the storm broke, and by Icelandic employment law they were absolutely constrained from taking any further action against him. Firing him to appease the players would have been breaking the law.

Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:49:00 - [71] And if you MUST know a reason why i could actually quit for good, is the sheer ungrateful attitude of players the SECOND they are told "you need to eat your broccoli before you get your pudding" My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:50:00 - [72] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/10/2008 16:54:47 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Umm, unintended feature means a "side effect that isn't necessarily harmful". And which is ADVERTISED in a game guide. So an INTENDED feature. UNINTENDED features are at the very least IGNORED, most time FIXED, never ADVERTISED. Quote: The devblog shows nothing about "balance", or i missed it. The original announce says it: Balance Quote: You don't also know how the servers work, how x-ty thousand inactive accounts are handled etc. Yes we know. The databases are in standard servers whose way of operating are widely known. Quote: These are all, very much, excuses to bring some "lie" claim to a thing that limits your off-paying gamestyle. The lies are undeniable. The attempts to cover it can't be denied either. If you are still arguing against it you are either a troll or intellectually challenged. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Sheriff Jones And if you MUST know a reason why i could actually quit for good, is the sheer ungrateful attitude of players the SECOND they are told "you need to eat your broccoli before you get your pudding" I wouldn't miss you. Bye bye. -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:52:00 - [74] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Sheriff Jones They have screenshots on information portal where the player guide says "training will continue", now that it's going to be gone, they removed it. Only seems logical, they told the truth when it was active, now they removed it 'cause it's no longer viable. Just spun out of control as "horrible lies and treachery". ^^ this, tbh ^^ The devblog contained some pretty heavy exaggerations and vagueness, and I don't fault them for trying to be diplomatic and somewhat two-faced when players were screaming at them based on the change If you had asked me two days ago whether the ghosting nerf would have caused this much drama, I doubt I'd have said it would If they'd given a month's notice so that players currently taking a break didn't lose out, been up front about the need to raise revenue, given information about the issues and then said as a side note that they were'nt really ever that comfortable with the idea of unsubbed characters gaining in-game advantages and that ALL activity on unsubbed characters was ceasing after the 30 days, then it would have gone down a lot better. Especially if they'd combined it with a renewed campaign against the ISK farmers that are helping drive GTC prices up so that the player who, in a month would be looking for a new GTC had a little less competition to bid against, then, well... there'd have been disappointment and most likely a few grumbles, maybe even a few emoragequits... a few. I'd have probably supported them in the end, if a little unenthusiastically. But no. They decided to do it this way.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:53:00 - [75] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:40:48 Originally by: Korizan I just got one or two questions. Where does it officially say that when you CANCEL your account you will continue to train. Where was this put in as an official selling feature of the game ? Just curious cause I know I have must have missed this message or promotion. They have screenshots on information portal where the player guide says "training will continue", now that it's going to be gone, they removed it. Only seems logical, they told the truth when it was active, now they removed it 'cause it's no longer viable. Just spun out of control as "horrible lies and treachery". And by the by, the devblog seems fair enough. It was a feature, unintended, but no need for concern so they let it continue, but when alot of people start abusing it, it becomes a bug. There are posts, WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY down in the dungeons of this very forum, by TomB (remember him?) talking about how the training skills on an expired account is one of the nifty things that make EVE great. Go find them yourself I'm not gonna spend days trying to sort through posts in the devfinder (that probably got ninja removed anyhow). The fact was they even thought it was neat, and cool, then what three years after they talk about how it's neat and cool it's suddenly a bug. Bullshit. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:53:00 - [76] Fair balance, people who pay get the reward. There was no lie, only documentation of how things work with inactive accounts at THAT TIME. The database thing is irrelevant really, but if it takes a nano-inch away from active account lag or some such, good. Spun out of control. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:53:00 - [77] I CAN TAKE ALL STUFF!
Chomin H'ak The Trivenerate	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:53:00 - [78] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Originally by: Sheriff Jones t20 was fair enough, but it was handled, and new things put into place to prevent it. Wasn't CCP, was an individual. Considering he still works on CCP after all this, no it was not an individual, it was CCP. CCP didn't fire him, and neither have undone what he did and the measurable consequences of his actions. In my book that means they automatically condoned with him. QFFT Originally by: Frenden Dax My heart hopes that people aren't that stupid, but my experiences thus far suggest otherwise.
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:54:00 - [79] Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/10/2008 16:56:40 Originally by: Malcanis IIRC CCP had already internally disciplined him when the storm broke, and by Icelandic employment law they were absolutely constrained from taking any further action against him. Firing him to appease the players would have been breaking the law. BS. At the time I downloaded the whole Icelandish law codes. I was really ****ed out with these stupid arguments. By Icelandish laws or the laws or ANY civilized country's I know, you can fire any employee without justification as long as you pay what is due to him. And there is not such a thing as ALREADY DISCIPLINED. There is no law that says you can't be disciplined and posteriorly fired and I defy you to link me one here. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:56:00 - [80] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 16:56:34 Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Sheriff Jones And if you MUST know a reason why i could actually quit for good, is the sheer ungrateful attitude of players the SECOND they are told "you need to eat your broccoli before you get your pudding" I wouldn't miss you. Bye bye. Interesting switch from "i like you". Oh well, you people leave if you don't trust a company, it's not like i'm playing an MMO for "trust of CCP and huggytimes" My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.

Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Sheriff Jones I've looked at the manual. I've looked at the game box. I've looked at promotional videos. Promotional sites. And even newbie help section. I've yet to see this "promoted feature: You can train without paying!" And by the way, i don't count a few complaining children who lost their free friday candy as "losing all reserves for trust". And you can no longer defend the 'cause YOU got "nerfed", this doesn't make you a defender, this makes you a hypopotamus Well, see, here's what's funny... I've never really ghost-trained. It wasn't a big selling point to me. But I'm still angry, because this move seems - like the Chribba one, which CCP would have happily continued save for the explosion of rage - to be aimed purely at reducing customer enjoyment of the game. I used ghost training to encourage my friends to come to Eve, and it WAS advertised as a feature, both by the players guide and devs, not to mention other players. It was a little extra "we care" that kept people coming back to Eve again and again. You say that you don't think CCP is doing this for the money, since it won't benefit them. Fine. I say they're doing it because they enjoy hurting the players, then. Fair enough? It's the other logical choice. It's sad when being a money-grubbing idiot is the better way people could think of you. Oh god, the Veldnaught fiasco. /me waves to Vikarion from that threadnaught to this one \o/ Incidentally, I'm in the same boat as you. I've got one account, one main character (and one market alt to check prices in other regions, since I'm in FW), and never had my account go inactive. Similarly, I never thought "man, those guys over there are training while they're not logged in are getting an unfair advantage over me." They're not! I don't care how much they spend on the game - how much they spend does not impact my enjoyment. In fact, some might argue that since I am paying more often (and therefore more), I am getting an advantage over them - I can actually log in and play, whereas they can only train skills! Really the thing here that is the dumbest is that... anybody training skills on an offline account... must be intending to return to the game at some point. Which means more money for CCP. ??????????? __________________________________ Originally by: Arthur Frayn How much to ruin all your holes, luv?
Vikarion Caldari Hunters Imperiale	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:59:00 - [82] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Fair balance, people who pay get the reward. There was no lie, only documentation of how things work with inactive accounts at THAT TIME. The database thing is irrelevant really, but if it takes a nano-inch away from active account lag or some such, good. Spun out of control. No. You are intentionally misstating the facts. No one is claiming that CCP lied by removing the info from the players guide. We are claiming that CCP lied when they said it's about balance (it's manifestly not, how stupid do they think we are?), then changing it to "it was a bug"...when they have touted it as a feature and a reason to play Eve for years. CCP lies to their customers and treats them like dirt. That's the problem. -------- EVE - The only non-consensual PvP MMORPG* *Note: does not contain non-consensual PvP as of 9/3/2008
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:01:00 - [83] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/10/2008 16:56:40 Originally by: Malcanis IIRC CCP had already internally disciplined him when the storm broke, and by Icelandic employment law they were absolutely constrained from taking any further action against him. Firing him to appease the players would have been breaking the law. BS. At the time I downloaded the whole Icelandish law codes. I was really ****ed out with these stupid arguments. By Icelandish laws or the laws or ANY civilized country's I know, you can fire any employee without justification as long as you pay what is due to him. And there is not such a thing as ALREADY DISCIPLINED. There is no law that says you can't be disciplined and posteriorly fired and I defy you to link me one here. I'm not a lawyer; I'm only going by what I heard. And to be blunt, I stopped caring about t20 a while ago. Once BoB started losing regions it was obvious that whatever Dev help they had been getting was now no longer occuring and therefore no longer of interest to me. A year later I actually find myself in the GBC (although not for long).
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:01:00 - [84] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 17:01:39 Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Sheriff Jones Fair balance, people who pay get the reward. There was no lie, only documentation of how things work with inactive accounts at THAT TIME. The database thing is irrelevant really, but if it takes a nano-inch away from active account lag or some such, good. Spun out of control. No. You are intentionally misstating the facts. No one is claiming that CCP lied by removing the info from the players guide. We are claiming that CCP lied when they said it's about balance (it's manifestly not, how stupid do they think we are?), then changing it to "it was a bug"...when they have touted it as a feature and a reason to play Eve for years. CCP lies to their customers and treats them like dirt. That's the problem. They didn't lie, they removed it to prevent confusion, it's no longer valid, so it should be removed, right? But...it is a balance issue. Cash for play balance. All equal. Pay and play. Balance. It is a bug, just not a "considerably important bug", until now, when alot more people are doing it, instead of playing. Who's misstating and not understanding? If i spun this into other subjects of the game, it would be "a-ok to be removed", probably, by you. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:03:00 - [85] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Sheriff Jones Fair balance, people who pay get the reward. There was no lie, only documentation of how things work with inactive accounts at THAT TIME. The database thing is irrelevant really, but if it takes a nano-inch away from active account lag or some such, good. Spun out of control. No. You are intentionally misstating the facts. No one is claiming that CCP lied by removing the info from the players guide. We are claiming that CCP lied when they said it's about balance (it's manifestly not, how stupid do they think we are?), then changing it to "it was a bug"...when they have touted it as a feature and a reason to play Eve for years. CCP lies to their customers and treats them like dirt. That's the problem. But...it is a balance issue. Do you seriously believe that? I mean really. Seriously? Because if you do, I expect you to post immediately a thread in the CSM forum stating in the strongest possible terms that GTC for ISK and Characters sales must stop immediately... ... assuming that you're not a "hypopotamus"
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:05:00 - [86] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 14:06:05 Lied to? Loss of trust? Dishonesty? Disrespect? Aren't these a bit big words for people who have leeched basically free gametime? Of people who get every expansion free? Who get the game for free? You're lucky i'm not the community manager And to REALLY drive a nail in the casket; If you took the power of two offer, you have 6 months left on that "other char who won't be able to ghost train" We didn't leach anything, it was highlighted and exposed umpteen times in the dev blog. It was a feature. Now it is gone. But they didn't have to do what Malcanis just described. Also notice how this action followed Po2? Bait and trap baby. Also at the end of the day, who pay's CCP's salaries? We didn't leach anything. Yes free expansion, hey, a reason to favor CCP. "Who get the game for free?" Not sure Im getting that one. I paid for it.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:06:00 - [87] Originally by: Malcanis Do you seriously believe that? I mean really. Seriously? Because if you do, I expect you to post immediately a thread in the CSM forum stating in the strongest possible terms that GTC for ISK and Characters sales must stop immediately... ... assuming that you're not a "hypopotamus" Yes. It brings equal ground to all players timewise. I don't post "remove this" threads, 'cause it's not my game. They do whatever they like. I'm cool with that, that's how MMOs work. I don't particularly like GTC for ISK or character sales, i think it's a bit weird, and i certainly wouldn't cry if they got removed. Balance is; equal ground for all players. This brings more balance. You can't dispute that. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:10:00 - [88] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 17:01:39 Originally by: Vikarion Originally by: Sheriff Jones Fair balance, people who pay get the reward. There was no lie, only documentation of how things work with inactive accounts at THAT TIME. The database thing is irrelevant really, but if it takes a nano-inch away from active account lag or some such, good. Spun out of control. No. You are intentionally misstating the facts. No one is claiming that CCP lied by removing the info from the players guide. We are claiming that CCP lied when they said it's about balance (it's manifestly not, how stupid do they think we are?), then changing it to "it was a bug"...when they have touted it as a feature and a reason to play Eve for years. CCP lies to their customers and treats them like dirt. That's the problem. They didn't lie, they removed it to prevent confusion, it's no longer valid, so it should be removed, right? But...it is a balance issue. Cash for play balance. All equal. Pay and play. Balance. It is a bug, just not a "considerably important bug", until now, when alot more people are doing it, instead of playing. Who's misstating and not understanding? If i spun this into other subjects of the game, it would be "a-ok to be removed", probably, by you. Yoo hoo!!!!! Why did they post to these forums about how it was one of the good things about EVE for such a long time if they didn't see it as a FEATURE. I remember posts by TomB. Someone else said there's been posts by Wrangler himself. (That I don't know about). THEY LIKED IT UNTIL NOW. Because people saw higher gtc prices (and removal of 30 day) and less resubbed this fall than they expected, is my guess. Now it's suddenly a bug and a problem. It's a problem because you hurt people with gtc changes at the exact time they are less able to deal with them, CCP. Seriously, why don't you comprehend this? ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:12:00 - [89] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 17:12:06 Originally by: SSgt Sniper Yoo hoo!!!!! Why did they post to these forums about how it was one of the good things about EVE for such a long time if they didn't see it as a FEATURE. I remember posts by TomB. Someone else said there's been posts by Wrangler himself. (That I don't know about). THEY LIKED IT UNTIL NOW. Because people saw higher gtc prices (and removal of 30 day) and less resubbed this fall than they expected, is my guess. Now it's suddenly a bug and a problem. It's a problem because you hurt people with gtc changes at the exact time they are less able to deal with them, CCP. Seriously, why don't you comprehend this? Can you post without being rude? You're acting a little childish. Yes, devs may have liked it, heck, it was on the devblog itself. Doesn't mean that wrangler or TomB are in charge of the game. Wrangler and TomB are not whole CCP, so "they", only means wrangler and TomB", not the whole freakin' company. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
SSgt Sniper Gallente MAIDS	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:16:00 - [90] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 17:12:06 Originally by: SSgt Sniper Yoo hoo!!!!! Why did they post to these forums about how it was one of the good things about EVE for such a long time if they didn't see it as a FEATURE. I remember posts by TomB. Someone else said there's been posts by Wrangler himself. (That I don't know about). THEY LIKED IT UNTIL NOW. Because people saw higher gtc prices (and removal of 30 day) and less resubbed this fall than they expected, is my guess. Now it's suddenly a bug and a problem. It's a problem because you hurt people with gtc changes at the exact time they are less able to deal with them, CCP. Seriously, why don't you comprehend this? Can you post without being rude? You're acting a little childish. Yes, devs may have liked it, heck, it was on the devblog itself. Doesn't mean that wrangler or TomB are in charge of the game. Wrangler and TomB are not whole CCP, so "they", only means wrangler and TomB", not the whole freakin' company. Wrangler is not ccp. Waiiiiittttttt................. Oh tha's right, Wrangler IS the public face of CCP. YOUR OWN LITTLE THREAD POINTS THAT OUT. **** it, they'll do what they do, you'll fanboi along, and come May I'll be in either Jumpgate or somewhere else. Whatever. Teaches me to not pay long term up front. ------- CEO of Maids. No I didn't pick the name. I've grown rather fond of it though.

Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:21:00 - [91] Originally by: SSgt Sniper Wrangler is not ccp. Waiiiiittttttt.................snip Different matter. Wrangler is the community manager, he doesn't decide what happens and what features are removed. Who knows, wrangler may be against this as much as you guys. Thing is, i will play along, yes, but not fanboi. For example, i play WoW, i don't know anything besides huge promotions about add-ons what happens, i don't frequent the forums, i play the game because i like the game and accept that MMOs change. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.14 17:35:00 - [92] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 14/10/2008 17:08:03 Originally by: Malcanis Do you seriously believe that? I mean really. Seriously? Because if you do, I expect you to post immediately a thread in the CSM forum stating in the strongest possible terms that GTC for ISK and Characters sales must stop immediately... ... assuming that you're not a "hypopotamus" Yes. It brings equal ground to all players timewise. I don't post "remove this" threads, 'cause it's not my game. They do whatever they like. I'm cool with that, that's how MMOs work. I don't particularly like GTC for ISK or character sales, i think it's a bit weird, and i certainly wouldn't cry if they got removed. Balance is; equal ground for all players. This brings more balance. You can't dispute that. Highwind, and others; If they did't remove the "ghost training" part from the guide, and removed the feature, just HOW many threads do you think there would be by outraged people, new to game, who would say "it said so!" Was it not balanced before this change. Everyone could ghost train. I'm not sure if I understand how you believe this balances. On the your last part. New players would be upset because with no more ghost training, all the vets got the advantage. So now its imbalanced.
Hanso Sparxx We The People	Posted - 2008.10.14 18:58:00 - [93] I don't know if anyone has stated this yet... but does anyone see the irony of cancelling an account that isn't being paid for in the first place? *oh, yeah, I know... after 59 more days of training, you'll spend another 15 bucks to train another 100 day skill. whooptidoo I also love the fact that teenage emo video game nerds are also masters of how the economy and businesses work. ------------------ We the People is recruiting!
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:11:00 - [94] Originally by: Hanso Sparxx I also love the fact that teenage emo video game nerds are also masters of how the economy and businesses work. Many evo-o players are university graduates, and micro/macro economics are a first year introductory course in most 3-4 year undergraduate programs. It's not difficult to grasp that alot of people here might understand how the economy works.
Cincannatus	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:42:00 - [95] Edited by: Cincannatus on 14/10/2008 19:42:50 Originally by: Hanso Sparxx I don't know if anyone has stated this yet... but does anyone see the irony of cancelling an account that isn't being paid for in the first place? Lol, that puts it very well. I dont have the words within me to say something so succintly... oh and about the economics thing... i was thinking this is basically about the marginal utility/rates of return right... by allowing ghost training, ccp were effectively allowing the price of eve to vary, cutting down on lost surplus and maximising gain. So theoretically CCP must make a loss on this. they need to, because that surplus will dissappear. And the ppl leaving suggest that, from 3 accounts to 1 is marginal utility at work. however that is good for ppl like me, because that will mean 2 accounts on the market edit: this is aonly a short term thing though, who knows how it will impact in the long term.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.14 19:44:00 - [96] Originally by: Highwind Cid Was it not balanced before this change. Everyone could ghost train. I'm not sure if I understand how you believe this balances. On the your last part. New players would be upset because with no more ghost training, all the vets got the advantage. So now its imbalanced. Now now, keep it real here. It wasn't balanced before, because some wish to play all the time, so they are not getting "free gain". On the last part, it wasn't about vets having a gain, they already do as is, timewise, but about CCP needing to remove things from player guide that are not there anymore. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Hanso Sparxx We The People	Posted - 2008.10.14 20:11:00 - [97] Originally by: Dizeezer Velar Many evo-o players are university graduates, and micro/macro economics are a first year introductory course in most 3-4 year undergraduate programs. It's not difficult to grasp that alot of people here might understand how the economy works. Yeah... I've taken those classes myself and you really think those freshman classes give you that much insight into how real world economics work? Are you qualified to run a companies financial department now? Or are you just an expert at balancing your own checkbook? Just because they realized that "ghost training" evolved into something that they really did not intend - and lets be smart about this, Emos - do you really think they intended people to train that many inactive accounts? ------------------ We the People is recruiting!
Siberys Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.10.14 20:14:00 - [98] Edited by: Siberys on 14/10/2008 20:15:11 Originally by: Moirae Arachnea They are just whining because they are getting their EVE on EASY taken away from them. MA I beat The Blockade on legendary with all skulls on. Gotta love Halo 3.... Ontopic: Let 'em leave. They are (Were) detrimental to the community.
nahtoh Caldari StrikerCorp Dark Trinity Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.14 21:40:00 - [99] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Sheriff Jones But people can't seriously be this annoyed/disappointed by a removed feature. I don't really care about the feature, it would have been OK either way with me. I quit because CCP choose to lie about it being a bug (they don't document most features and they would document that bug as a feature?) and because they chose to hide behind the fairness argument. CCP authorize char transfer for ISKs and GTC for IKSs, so obviously fairness is not one of their primary concern. Had they no be such hypocrites about the whole situation I'd not be trying to access "My account" right now. I just won't give money anymore to people obviously thinking I'm a moron here to be milked. It's perfectly OK to want more money, AFAIK they don't publicly publish their results and maybe they are in dire need of a fresh cash injection. They just had to be honest about the whole deal. In about any business if you show obvious disrespect toward your customers they walk out, that is exactly what is happening now. It was/is a bug that became a feature (with no plans to remove it at the time and for a number of years). Its been revisited and decided to move it back to teh bug camp and remove it. All of the dev comments I have seen about it over the years pretty much came down to "It was not a intended feature but a bug that we are currenttly allowing", they are not anymore. Cry yourself a river, build a bridge and get the feck over it...Its probable reason from being removed was to many off one month on the next crap. Basicly amounting to next to 12 months skill training for 7 to 8 months worth of subs. The way I read the dev blog was more along the lines of to many people are abusing it, so we are removing it. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.10.14 22:22:00 - [100] Pretty much ignore everything CCP has ever said it means absolutely nothing. Treat them as politicians it's just hype and sales patter same as everyone else now. Treat them as a normal company now. Don't like what they do then don't give them money ie. I pay my subs at the moment and begrudge it to be honest. A year ago I would've bought all the ship models without a second thought. But I don't think I owe them that loyalty anymore as I just see it as a game now as opposed to being a fan and seeing it as a good use of leisure time. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig

StuckToon Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.15 00:23:00 - [101] Edited by: StuckToon on 15/10/2008 00:28:54 Originally by: Korizan I just got one or two questions. Where does it officially say that when you CANCEL your account you will continue to train. Where was this put in as an official selling feature of the game ? Just curious cause I know I have must have missed this message or promotion. Yes, inactive = logged out? Cancel = I quit, don't pay for or have any more use of this account? anyway just for clarification, anyone actually attempted the wayback machine to see if anything useful can be found or is eve on it's list of blocked sites, too much work or thought, etc..? Looks to me like theree are archived many months of useful and fun captures to pore over. http://www.archive.org/index.php I'm at work and don't have time Edit: what about Chribba? no links, just referenced to something and oops it was fixed
Jason Edwards	Posted - 2008.10.15 02:17:00 - [102] probably doubt that it will because you trade the character for ISK. Which if they are quiting... the isk is worthless to them. ------------------------ "There was this bright flash of light - and now this egg shaped thing is on my screen - did I level up?"

CCP Applebabe	Posted - 2008.10.15 02:35:00 - [103] Moved to "OOPE" channel. Applebabe Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang

Mordrake Orbital Anvil Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.15 02:58:00 - [104] Originally by: CCP Applebabe Moved to "OOPE" channel. Bwaaa haaaaa, relegated to the dusty back room of EVE O forums ; P "Arte et Marte"
Atomos Darksun Infortunatus Eventus Obsidian Empire	Posted - 2008.10.15 03:10:00 - [105] Originally by: Mordrake Originally by: CCP Applebabe Moved to "OOPE" channel. Bwaaa haaaaa, relegated to the dusty back room of EVE O forums ; P It's called "intelligent discussion." Originally by: Amoxin My vent is talking to me in a devil voice... Atomos' Guide to Forum Flaming
Terail Zoqial Caldari	Posted - 2008.10.15 03:50:00 - [106] Originally by: CCP Applebabe Moved to "OOPE" channel. Shouldn't this be in the spam hole that is GD as it's eve related, oope is for non eve related stuff. Ahh wellz
Mortisha Drake	Posted - 2008.10.15 04:05:00 - [107] Originally by: Terail Zoqial Originally by: CCP Applebabe Moved to "OOPE" channel. Shouldn't this be in the spam hole that is GD as it's eve related, oope is for non eve related stuff. Ahh wellz No OOPE gets used as a buffer zone on occasion to move rant threads to rather than lock them in GD. Some get moved.... some get locked. Never seen the rhyme or reason as to which get picked to be moved here myself, honestly I don't think there is any ; \ The main thing is they quickly die once here.
Gerard Deneth Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2008.10.17 03:25:00 - [108] Originally by: Etho Demerzel Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 14/10/2008 16:56:40 Originally by: Malcanis IIRC CCP had already internally disciplined him when the storm broke, and by Icelandic employment law they were absolutely constrained from taking any further action against him. Firing him to appease the players would have been breaking the law. BS. At the time I downloaded the whole Icelandish law codes. I was really ****ed out with these stupid arguments. By Icelandish laws or the laws or ANY civilized country's I know, you can fire any employee without justification as long as you pay what is due to him. And there is not such a thing as ALREADY DISCIPLINED. There is no law that says you can't be disciplined and posteriorly fired and I defy you to link me one here. You're talking about reasonable grounds for dismissal. Most contracts for employment (outside of the US since it is, frankly, a buggered place to work. At-will employment? charmingly amoral) done by a reasonably large business (of which CCP is one) include disciplinary methods. If not, it's part of the company's internal documents. Most likely the first step is a verbal warning, with written afterwards, and either a review process or they go straight to dismissal. In order to dismiss someone with cause, they have to have either committed a criminal act that relates to their business, or have broken their employment contract (this can be rather tricky ground. Lawyers are traditionally a standard). Dismissing him without cause generally means a rather substantial severance, depending on local law and on the contract itself. In Canada this can be several months worth pay, at his current pay rate. I personally think that they looked at what he did and what work he's done, and they decided to whack him over the back of the head and keep him on. ---------------------------- The Game's always changing under your feet; don't start moaning when you get a toe caught in the gears.


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