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Wulfette
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Posted - 2004.07.06 18:17:00 -
[241]
Please TomB, can you add an extra turret to the Tempest so we can mine Veld in empire?
..actually very little sarcasme here I just want to be able to do something until the other BS get the nerf bat |
Carolina
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Posted - 2004.07.07 01:20:00 -
[242]
Lasers are awesome.
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Carolina
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Posted - 2004.07.07 01:20:00 -
[243]
Lasers are awesome.
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InZanity
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Posted - 2004.07.07 09:24:00 -
[244]
The Battleships / Titans sensors are the most powerful in the game (otherwise how do you account for their range), so why can my INDUSTRIAL lock onto targets faster than my APOC?
If a battleship, cruiser, frigate, and industrial are all the same distance away from a particular target (and within range of all), and all begin targeting simultaneously, that's the order they should lock onto said target. Battleship FIRST, Frigate next to last, and Industrial LAST.
I **agree** with part of their logic, however... if a ship tries to lock onto a large, medium, and small sized target, then you should lock onto a large target faster than a small one. That portion of their lock-on time is one I wholeheartily agree with. However, they should take care to measure the *actual* angular velocity of the target (for tracking speed). If a target is comming directly at / away from my battleship, my 1400mm's should have ***no problem*** tracking it, because it has 0 angular velocity. If a target is moving at significantly greater angular velocity than my guns can track... then rotate my ship retrograde to their movement, and suffer a rate-of-fire penalty while my guns wait on a firing window.
This would also bring the ship's maneuverability into account ( to enhance the tracking speed of the weapons ). |
InZanity
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Posted - 2004.07.07 09:24:00 -
[245]
The Battleships / Titans sensors are the most powerful in the game (otherwise how do you account for their range), so why can my INDUSTRIAL lock onto targets faster than my APOC?
If a battleship, cruiser, frigate, and industrial are all the same distance away from a particular target (and within range of all), and all begin targeting simultaneously, that's the order they should lock onto said target. Battleship FIRST, Frigate next to last, and Industrial LAST.
I **agree** with part of their logic, however... if a ship tries to lock onto a large, medium, and small sized target, then you should lock onto a large target faster than a small one. That portion of their lock-on time is one I wholeheartily agree with. However, they should take care to measure the *actual* angular velocity of the target (for tracking speed). If a target is comming directly at / away from my battleship, my 1400mm's should have ***no problem*** tracking it, because it has 0 angular velocity. If a target is moving at significantly greater angular velocity than my guns can track... then rotate my ship retrograde to their movement, and suffer a rate-of-fire penalty while my guns wait on a firing window.
This would also bring the ship's maneuverability into account ( to enhance the tracking speed of the weapons ). |
Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:49:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 12/07/2004 22:52:19
Ok TomB.
So, if we take the tracking of a gun like the 425mm railgun with NO skills, as listed on market, the value is 0.009625 rad/sec.
This means that the gun tracks at .551 degrees per second.
Now, I could be wrong about your tracking model, but please bear with me. This is just standard math stuff.
If the distance to target describes the hypotenuse of a right triangle, and the distance travelled by the player in 1 second is his velocity.
we have Sine angle of said triangle = distance to target from player / player's velocity for that one second.
so sine of 0.551 = 0.52
If we plug into the formula from above with X as the optimal transversal velocity, and 48km for the optimal range of a 425mm railgun we have:
0.52 = 48km / X km/sec (where X is what we are trying to find)
Solve this equeation and you have X = 48 / 0.52 = 92 km / sec
So, the OPTIMAL transversal velocity for a 425mm gun is 92km sec.
If it's more than that, the gun wont be able to keep tracking. If it's less than that, you're increasing the sine value, thereby increasing the angle, therefore the gun wont be able to keep tracking.
The way I look at it, you are DOUBLE PENALIZING players. Why? For the sake of "realism"?
With the LOW tracking values on large turrets, players are double penalized. Tracking on guns needs to increase by a FACTOR of TEN. Yes, I said 10 .
Come on,tracking on a 16 inch gun off the battleship Missouri can track 2 degrees per second, and the turret on that thing weighs 6 THOUSAND tons.
You are telling me that 14000 years into the future, they can't make turrets that track faster?
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:49:00 -
[247]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 12/07/2004 22:52:19
Ok TomB.
So, if we take the tracking of a gun like the 425mm railgun with NO skills, as listed on market, the value is 0.009625 rad/sec.
This means that the gun tracks at .551 degrees per second.
Now, I could be wrong about your tracking model, but please bear with me. This is just standard math stuff.
If the distance to target describes the hypotenuse of a right triangle, and the distance travelled by the player in 1 second is his velocity.
we have Sine angle of said triangle = distance to target from player / player's velocity for that one second.
so sine of 0.551 = 0.52
If we plug into the formula from above with X as the optimal transversal velocity, and 48km for the optimal range of a 425mm railgun we have:
0.52 = 48km / X km/sec (where X is what we are trying to find)
Solve this equeation and you have X = 48 / 0.52 = 92 km / sec
So, the OPTIMAL transversal velocity for a 425mm gun is 92km sec.
If it's more than that, the gun wont be able to keep tracking. If it's less than that, you're increasing the sine value, thereby increasing the angle, therefore the gun wont be able to keep tracking.
The way I look at it, you are DOUBLE PENALIZING players. Why? For the sake of "realism"?
With the LOW tracking values on large turrets, players are double penalized. Tracking on guns needs to increase by a FACTOR of TEN. Yes, I said 10 .
Come on,tracking on a 16 inch gun off the battleship Missouri can track 2 degrees per second, and the turret on that thing weighs 6 THOUSAND tons.
You are telling me that 14000 years into the future, they can't make turrets that track faster?
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:50:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 12/07/2004 22:51:21
oops double post
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Mikelangelo
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Posted - 2004.07.12 22:50:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Mikelangelo on 12/07/2004 22:51:21
oops double post
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heindal
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Posted - 2004.07.23 08:20:00 -
[250]
where can we see the graphs of accur? they cannot be view anymore on the forum.
thanks
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heindal
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Posted - 2004.07.23 08:20:00 -
[251]
where can we see the graphs of accur? they cannot be view anymore on the forum.
thanks
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.23 09:30:00 -
[252]
Edited by: Gariuys on 23/07/2004 15:55:32
Re: Mikelangelo. Your math is way off.
The formula to get the tracking you need to track a given target is.
(transversal velocity (in m/s)/range(in m))*(turret sig radius/target sig radius)=tracking in rad/sec
That means to get the transversal velocity you can effectively track at a given range you do:
tracking (in rad/sec)/(turret sig radius/target sig radius)*range (in m)
So for that 425 of yours against a target with a sig radius equal to the turrets sig radius. It's as simple as tracking*range. 0.009625 * 50.000m ( for instance ) is 481.25m/s
On a megathron with lvl 4 skills your talking about 693m/s at 50km
A megathron does 150m/s with lvl4 navigation. Which means that if the sig radius of a megathron would be 400 (like the turret ) you could track that megathron with a 425 with max transversal velocity down to about 16km.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.23 09:30:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Gariuys on 23/07/2004 15:55:32
Re: Mikelangelo. Your math is way off.
The formula to get the tracking you need to track a given target is.
(transversal velocity (in m/s)/range(in m))*(turret sig radius/target sig radius)=tracking in rad/sec
That means to get the transversal velocity you can effectively track at a given range you do:
tracking (in rad/sec)/(turret sig radius/target sig radius)*range (in m)
So for that 425 of yours against a target with a sig radius equal to the turrets sig radius. It's as simple as tracking*range. 0.009625 * 50.000m ( for instance ) is 481.25m/s
On a megathron with lvl 4 skills your talking about 693m/s at 50km
A megathron does 150m/s with lvl4 navigation. Which means that if the sig radius of a megathron would be 400 (like the turret ) you could track that megathron with a 425 with max transversal velocity down to about 16km.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.07.23 15:53:00 -
[254]
Oh look at the pretty math.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.23 15:53:00 -
[255]
Oh look at the pretty math.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Nilit
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Posted - 2004.07.24 03:55:00 -
[256]
Edited by: Nilit on 24/07/2004 03:59:00
 Quote:
TomB :
At long range, Tempest can choose to go shield tank and have 1400+1200+ siege launchers, 1400+siege launchers+cruise launchers or go armor tank and 1400+cruise launchers.
*Cough* yeah right.
When was the last time you've actually fited Tempest ?
In both cases you would need at least one either cpu or grid enhancing equipment or one of both.
That is providing you have electronics/engineering 5 , upgrades to at least 4 and named mods.
Which , just to remind You , not everyone in the game has.
Stop testing balance changes on characters with 12 million sp in engineering , electronics and gunnery kthnx.
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Nilit
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Posted - 2004.07.24 03:55:00 -
[257]
Edited by: Nilit on 24/07/2004 03:59:00
Quote:
TomB :
At long range, Tempest can choose to go shield tank and have 1400+1200+ siege launchers, 1400+siege launchers+cruise launchers or go armor tank and 1400+cruise launchers.
*Cough* yeah right.
When was the last time you've actually fited Tempest ?
In both cases you would need at least one either cpu or grid enhancing equipment or one of both.
That is providing you have electronics/engineering 5 , upgrades to at least 4 and named mods.
Which , just to remind You , not everyone in the game has.
Stop testing balance changes on characters with 12 million sp in engineering , electronics and gunnery kthnx.
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Blazde
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:23:00 -
[258]
Any chance of getting the links to the graphs in the first post working again?
Or did anyone save them...
__________________
4S Corporation Kill List |
Blazde
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Posted - 2004.07.29 06:23:00 -
[259]
Any chance of getting the links to the graphs in the first post working again?
Or did anyone save them...
__________________
4S Corporation Kill List |
Lacey Sirena
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Posted - 2004.07.29 07:26:00 -
[260]
those graphs dont mean squat, guns dont work anything like proposed although we are continually told they do. turret balance has hurt eve.
ccp listen to your community. what most are saying now is "when will guns be fixed?"
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Lacey Sirena
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Posted - 2004.07.29 07:26:00 -
[261]
those graphs dont mean squat, guns dont work anything like proposed although we are continually told they do. turret balance has hurt eve.
ccp listen to your community. what most are saying now is "when will guns be fixed?"
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allmus
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Posted - 2004.07.29 10:08:00 -
[262]
tomb's incase u can't be bothered looking though all the post's in the eve boards, heres a quick linkage...
here is one
here's number 2
here's 3!
with so many people complaining about it, u have to start seeing that projectile weapons have been OVER NERFED with ur "nerf bat of death", please look and see if u can make them atleast useable without any mod's
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
allmus
|
Posted - 2004.07.29 10:08:00 -
[263]
tomb's incase u can't be bothered looking though all the post's in the eve boards, heres a quick linkage...
here is one
here's number 2
here's 3!
with so many people complaining about it, u have to start seeing that projectile weapons have been OVER NERFED with ur "nerf bat of death", please look and see if u can make them atleast useable without any mod's
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
Siddy
|
Posted - 2004.08.14 00:31:00 -
[264]
ou ou!
and While you are at it TomB, Chek also this tread... pretty please?
Tread 4
its abaut posibility to altter projektiles and make em unique whit munition
and forgive me all the spelling errors ..
-------------------------------------------
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.14 00:31:00 -
[265]
ou ou!
and While you are at it TomB, Chek also this tread... pretty please?
Tread 4
its abaut posibility to altter projektiles and make em unique whit munition
and forgive me all the spelling errors ..
-------------------------------------------
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Marilyn Storm
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Posted - 2004.08.22 18:55:00 -
[266]
incase missed on comment page:
Looks all Crap to me, I cant use my tempest anymore. Fix the projectile turrets, this aint fun anymore. I got a ship of over 100mille worth of crap and weapons that are useless now. I'm not happy with the changes, and I got plenty more behind me that are affraid to speak up. So is there anyway you could meet us half way with this request coz the way I see it we trained long hours and spent lots of money on skills and equipment/ships that are now totally useless. Are we going to get something for our moneysworth? Look im not trying to be offensive if seen this way im sorry but there are about a dozen minmatar ships being thrown into the trash and lots of weapons like the howitzer turrets rendered useless. I would like to know if there is anything going to be done about it. TomB I know you think your doing your best on this but I ask you to reconsider and listen to those that are experiencing this. You could say its an cry for help. A lot of people I know have a tempest like me and have projectile turrets like me. And some even invested into blueprints. All of this isnt worth anything anymore. So please hear us.
Thank you
regards
Marilyn |
Marilyn Storm
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Posted - 2004.08.22 18:55:00 -
[267]
incase missed on comment page:
Looks all Crap to me, I cant use my tempest anymore. Fix the projectile turrets, this aint fun anymore. I got a ship of over 100mille worth of crap and weapons that are useless now. I'm not happy with the changes, and I got plenty more behind me that are affraid to speak up. So is there anyway you could meet us half way with this request coz the way I see it we trained long hours and spent lots of money on skills and equipment/ships that are now totally useless. Are we going to get something for our moneysworth? Look im not trying to be offensive if seen this way im sorry but there are about a dozen minmatar ships being thrown into the trash and lots of weapons like the howitzer turrets rendered useless. I would like to know if there is anything going to be done about it. TomB I know you think your doing your best on this but I ask you to reconsider and listen to those that are experiencing this. You could say its an cry for help. A lot of people I know have a tempest like me and have projectile turrets like me. And some even invested into blueprints. All of this isnt worth anything anymore. So please hear us.
Thank you
regards
Marilyn |
Celt Eireson
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Posted - 2004.08.22 20:05:00 -
[268]
Main problems I find with the long range artillery projectiles is:
1. Projectiles have the longest effective range, but Min ships appear to always have the shortest targeting range? Seems a bit odd when a bog standard longest range artillery of any size has a range in excess of the max targetting range of the ship even when only using range neutral ammo. Fit a couple of tracking/range mods which a lot do because of the poor tracking on projectiles and you will never get anywhere near your gun's max range before you are out of targetting range. And yes, I know there are modules to boost targetting range, but even with one fitted you'll still run out of targetting range before running out of gun range.
2. Warp-in ranges are also way lower than the ranges offered by the likes of the 1400, you can easily get way over 100km range on your guns but can't warp in any further away than 60km? Seems a little odd.
3. Tracking seems to need improved a little, unless you are moving in a straight line to and from a target you still seem to be missing a bit too much.
Haven't fought enough ships of battleship class to be able to really comment on DOT for the likes of 1200/1440 against other battleships.
And in reference to a point someone made earlier about being happy with the trade off for more of an improvement in Min ship speed/agility to compensate for the tracking. If that was an option I'd go for it :-) I like speed! Not only that but given that we have to maintain a large distance for artillery to keep at an effective range speed can mean a lot.
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Celt Eireson
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Posted - 2004.08.22 20:05:00 -
[269]
Main problems I find with the long range artillery projectiles is:
1. Projectiles have the longest effective range, but Min ships appear to always have the shortest targeting range? Seems a bit odd when a bog standard longest range artillery of any size has a range in excess of the max targetting range of the ship even when only using range neutral ammo. Fit a couple of tracking/range mods which a lot do because of the poor tracking on projectiles and you will never get anywhere near your gun's max range before you are out of targetting range. And yes, I know there are modules to boost targetting range, but even with one fitted you'll still run out of targetting range before running out of gun range.
2. Warp-in ranges are also way lower than the ranges offered by the likes of the 1400, you can easily get way over 100km range on your guns but can't warp in any further away than 60km? Seems a little odd.
3. Tracking seems to need improved a little, unless you are moving in a straight line to and from a target you still seem to be missing a bit too much.
Haven't fought enough ships of battleship class to be able to really comment on DOT for the likes of 1200/1440 against other battleships.
And in reference to a point someone made earlier about being happy with the trade off for more of an improvement in Min ship speed/agility to compensate for the tracking. If that was an option I'd go for it :-) I like speed! Not only that but given that we have to maintain a large distance for artillery to keep at an effective range speed can mean a lot.
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Turiya Flesharrower
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Posted - 2004.08.22 20:05:00 -
[270]
I mined for weeks in 0.0 space to be able to afford my Typhoon, now I realize it was a complete waste of time. Projectiles are no longer a viable battleship weapon, their ROF coupled with their crippled accuracy means that they're completely useless against all opponents. Battleships are ridiculously hard to destroy because projectile DOT simply cannot break through a standard tank, cruisers and frigates are equally invulnerable as poor tracking makes them almost impossible to hit. The 1400mm howitzer is supposed to be a devastating weapon but it can barely measure up against cruiser-sized guns in terms of damage-dealing capacity. 1200mm are almost as bad and certainly can't measure up to the kind of damage that other BS weapons can potentially deal. Some might advise the use of 800mm howitzers or other short-range guns but that sort of defies the point of having a typhoon in the first place. At Minmatar Battleship lvl 5 the typhoon has a 50% boost to optimal projectile weapon range; what the hell use is that with short-range guns like the 800's? If I want to use close-combat tactics I'll do it on my own terms; I won't be forced into it by poor decisions made on the part of the devs. I liked the Typhoon because it had incredible potential as a long-range weapons platform; now it simply cannot deal enough damage to make it worth flying. I now fly a maller and I can confidently say that it can deal more damage with its 5 lasers than my Typhoon could with its 4 howitzers and cruise launchers or equivalent setup. Even the Tempest's damage bonus can't make up for poor projectile weapon performance, as vioced by many on the forum.
The worst thing about this whole situation is the total lack of feedback from the devs. Every thread asking for an explanation or solution has gone unanswered and it's extremely frustrating when you consider the amount of time people have spent earning the ISK and training the skills necessary to fly these battleships effectively; myself included. It's obvious that I'm not the only one thinking these thoughts; every day I see another thread on the projectile nerf. It's also obvious that there's no lack of possible solutions, everyone has their own viable ideas on how to make projectiles useful again. There really is no excuse for this sort of imbalance in the game mechanics, it's a problem which has been f=brought to the fore again and again for weeks.
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