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TRIGGERS MASS	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:04:00 - [1] My name is Triggers, I have been playing the game since <insert EVE beta date>à I will not make a complaint post but more so attempt to critically analyse why (from a customers perspective) I believe the game has gone down hill in relation to pvp. My background in short is primarily a PVPÆer but I do dabble in industry (carebear) some times. The recent actions of the stopping of Ghost training being a æbugÆ though advertised in there instructions menu on the EVE website as a clear ôfeatureö is beginning to make me think that CCP is starting to transform the game into a giant cash cow for future games and investments. Though the strategy of CCPÆs leadership may seem clear I believe that the new devs that are in EVE now do not have the same passion the old devs had for the creation of the original shoot-em up that EVE used to be; however believe that to reach a new devs interest to explain it in the format of æhey my car is broken, please fix it!Æ The first major issue is the large scale alliances in the gameà They are required to fill space and be a target and shoot things and so forth. However over time the ability for small elitist corporations and small alliances in EVE to affectively damage significantly (killing allot and loosing virtually nothing) and insignificantly (poses) major alliances has diminished to such a point that you have no significance on either end of the scale. There are 3 major influences that make effectively small scale warfare very difficult. 1)The gank battleship (pre nerf) you had the ability to take your specialised pilot and melt another battleship within 30 seconds. This was changed and a stacking penalty introducedà OK no problem killing someone in 30 seconds in another battleship (sometimes faster) is kind of insane FPS shoot them upà So now it takes maybe a minuet or more to take down someoneà were still peachy. 2)Then came the 300% ship HP increaseà err ok now we canÆt do decent gank fits anymore, better start fitting passive ganktanks for combat. And it now takes even longer to kill the enemy. 3)Then ship resistances and rigs came; awesome tank is tweaked (including those emergency hull resistances) you can fit ArmageddonÆs with at least 125k+ effective hit points. Which in turn means it takes you a hell of allot longer to kill something. The affects in Empire basically mean you can do mission level 4Æs in piece and safety no NPC will have no where near enough damage to single headedly be any threat to you in your 500k skill point ravenà First the culture of small elitest groups that still in some capacity exist in EVE, focus on maximum damage and efficiency to make a kill and move fastà The changes noted above counter this totally. For example, to engage lets say a Abaddon, if you do not have sufficient DPS (say 3+BS or something) vs. 1 target, there is higher potential from a good alliance for that guy to get his backup and destroy whatever that small group bought to the fight. Now this further reflects onto bigger alliances, your enemy bring 5 mixed t2 kitted bs to a fight, and you got 2 bs, simple math in the tank game you canÆt really win unless you got ECM or something, but then again effectively you need to depending on your available dps need to hold a fight for a good 5 mins to engage that with few numbers. However with gank BS of old that might not be a issue, depending on your enemy who may of gone tank you could potentially with some skill warp in or jump a gate and nail at least 3 before you first BS goes down. Off course this is situational dependable but the inability to fight so out numbered removes the entire edge from combat and PVP in EVE at its very essence. The culture is destroyed.
TRIGGERS MASS	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:05:00 - [2] If EVE devs can change something like remove a stacking nerf or unlock it a bit (I would personally like to see a old style gankageddon vs. a heavy tanked raven or abaddon of time) the Abaddon would probably win because tank is that insane. Return more efficient small scale fighting you may find that larger alliances struggle again vs. smaller dedicated forces that become more rewarded by there great engagement potential presented by the larger alliance. EVE culture as it exists is far to blobby to be enjoyed, every time CCP has pushed a new frontier in its fleet fight capacity the game mechanics and EVE community push the barrier just that 1 step forward. I am also a firm believer that supporting more efficient small scale combat will rebalance the existing NPCÆs if tank is reduced or if gank is increased then NPCÆs need slight increasing. Fights need to happen on the borders of your own territory with your surrounding enemies and not the entirety of EVE dukeing out on 2 different sides. This is a serious problem in EVE right now where your either on one side or the other. EVE needs to move to many small scale alliances with new friends and backstabs happening every day and the ability of small alliances to no be pushed out of space by the two big power blocks in EVE (but long term proven this isnÆt the case in NPC space). I would also look to put forward the points for dev discussion: Capital is the new eve age à the jump radios on a capital ship is to convenient for logistics and large and small alliances have a very easy way to get supplies to the front line; when you used to have to jump 50+ jumps with your shiny new BS you would fight with far more concern and care and feel the burn when you loose a BSà now the culture is undock in your carrier and jump to empire job doneà ready to fight again. POSÆs should never had been linked to Conquerable station warfare û I hope to god whoever came up with the idea was promptly fired from CCP :) Need to increase the amount of space by at least double. Starting from the centre (High sec/Low Sec) doubling the size of the centre and filling 0.0 space around it like it currently is, basically an elliptical double the size of now. Need to at least triple the range of all distances between star gates, maybe even more from some systems. It needs to be logistically hard to move out of your own territory in a far away territory. Thanks for your time.
Taz Devlin Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.15 16:46:00 - [3] My name is Taz Devlin, and I approve of this message. Eve today is too small for current mechanics to be as enjoyable as they could be. Too many decisions seem to be made with CCP marketing value in mind rather than the vision Eve was founded upon.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.15 17:02:00 - [4] Trigger is on the money here - and he's not alone. The stacking nerf on damage combined with the HP/Rig boosts do make warfare very stodgy. The beautiful fluid manoeuvres of old seem a long way distant, and its to the detriment of the game as a whole. Some quick suggestions, so I don't just go into "I AGREE" mode: - Remove stacking penalty on damage rigs, if you want to go full on six damage mod gank mode, there must be a penalty to balance it. - Increase stacking nerf on resistance / hp rigs - Balance ECM / buff ECCM or native ecm resistance on some roles of ships (my suggestion was interceptors a while ago)
RagnarH Minmatar	Posted - 2008.10.15 22:06:00 - [5] It was long time ago that CCP changed. And they saw that making money was more fun for them then making a good game. They started to build eve to be, like u said triggers, a money flowing cow, milking as much as they can from it. I dont enjoy EvE anymore. I dont play it any more. CCP has gone from the "little friendly corporation" to a multi million dollar invest group. Shame on you CCP, shame on you. ----------------------------------- Success isn't permanent, and failure isn't fatal.
GBlock The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.17 01:55:00 - [6] I am not that old in eve as the guys above me, but they got a huge point. at current eve warfare - only numbers (blob) seem to count, and u barely see any "small" scale warfare.
Straight Chillen Gallente Solar Wind	Posted - 2008.10.17 02:01:00 - [7] Triggers' definitely hit the nail on the head. Even in the span of time I've been playing the combat has lost a good deal of its edge. Whats been marketed as a cold, dark, vast universe feel bright, cramped, warm and fuzzy. They need to bring back some of the brutal aspects that set this game apart from the pack. Things like dictor bubbles yanking you out of warp, specialized setups that excelled at one thing alone, the bold combat where split second decisions made all the difference. The fear of loss, the long treks into the great unknown. As trig pointed out the hp and resistance boosts changed the game to the point where you have to travel in a small blob to effectively kill things and be out before reinforcements arrive. Its just furthered the trend to more and more and more blobing. Where does it end? Personally i think instead of adding more systems, they need to expand them and make them more dynamic. These days real combat only takes place on gates, stations and POS'. ofc people get ganked in the belts all the time and the occasional busted safe spot, but I've never heard of a fleet fight going down in one, or at a planet, or unoccupied moon for that matter. CCP needs to reexamine travel at its core. CCP needs to look at the game, and its original vision of it, and see how they differ, and how they are alike, and decide what direction they want to take. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Sochard Independent Manufacturers	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:28:00 - [8] I donÆt think that CCP donÆt know the problems, but they canÆt find a way to handle them The EVE concept based on the idea of the Patchwork ability. So there was always a good reason to change the system like Fine tuning the continuously enhancements donÆt fit so smoothly and some patches created stupid situations which donÆt fit in the game concept (ships flyÆs faster than any missiles, à) But now EVE reached a point where CCP can hardly pre-estimate the effects of any pervasive patches (speed-nerv). So we could say à "CCP canÆt get rid the ghosts they called!"
Niedar MASS	Posted - 2008.10.17 12:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Sochard I donÆt think that CCP donÆt know the problems, but they canÆt find a way to handle them The EVE concept based on the idea of the Patchwork ability. So there was always a good reason to change the system like Fine tuning the continuously enhancements donÆt fit so smoothly and some patches created stupid situations which donÆt fit in the game concept (ships flyÆs faster than any missiles, à) But now EVE reached a point where CCP can hardly pre-estimate the effects of any pervasive patches (speed-nerv). So we could say à "CCP canÆt get rid the ghosts they called!" You are exactly right. With each additional patch and new feature that CCP has made they have made the game more complicated. A friend once said that CCP will make the game so complicated that they cant even fix it, while I don't think we are quite there yet I do believe it could eventually happen if they don't start to work on the problems now instead of working on any new features for the game. They really need to fix the way EVE is currently played; like Trigger said, right now it is currently blob warfare and it needs to move towards more small scale fighting. This will never happen though unless CCP implements something to dissuade the whole of EVE blobbing up on two different sides except in rare occasions. So whil it will still be possible, most of the time its just not worth it. ------------------
rocka The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.17 13:44:00 - [10] Edited by: rocka on 17/10/2008 13:45:46 I remember when it took a bs gang of 10 to take over a station in a few hours those where fun days i also remmeber when it was worth it to just fit pure gank on your bs extra hp didnt really make that mutch of a diffrance
Self Similar Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:26:00 - [11] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=634652&page=1#1 Quote: Firstly, what has to happen; 1. Removal of local chat window -by far the most unrealistic and dumb auto-defence mechanism ever seen in a game of any kind.<snip> 2.Implementation of additional 3-4 stargates to every 0.0 system, increasing available routes to player A entering area X by 3-6 possible routes. -this would force campers and defenders to divide their forces(less blobbing) as well as introducing a whole new era of tactical manoeuvres surpassing simple blobbing of numbers. 3.Changes to Scanner(which would in no local environment be the defensive and offensive tool nr.1) to favour the owners of area X, where the sovereignty will give u ability to scan the whole system, whereas the aggressor or visitor will simply scan with max range(same as today) 4.Removal of ability to put together skills, gang bonuses and implants to achieve +10k m/s speed. -this would be a complicated issue but im sure removal of 1 of the siting factors would be sufficient and im sure most everyone can agree that this way above 10k m/s is just bullshit. Secondly, things that would be helpful, but critical due to many ppl already having grown accustomed to it as well as devoted skilltraining and isk to it; 1. Removal or nerfing of the Recon ships, where their EW would be either greatly decreased or simply change based. -although im sure many will not agree upon this, im pretty sure that with the removal of the overpowered ability of these ships to engage without any risk at allà will only lift the game to a better stage. 2. LONG overdue nerf of the sensor dampener. Change-based, nuff said. Damps and speed already been tweaked, but the rest remain.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:43:00 - [12] Wait, you're saying that the stacking penalty has made it impossible for small gangs to kill larger gangs? I hate to break it to you, but if you take the stacking penalty away all it means is that larger gangs will have an easier time killing smaller ones. The big alliances? We are just as heavily stacked in high skillpoint characters. The rest of your complaints are just impossible to rectify without a specific plan. You can't magic things to happen the way you want, you have to know why things progress as they do.
Nicholas Barker Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:50:00 - [13] Edited by: Nicholas Barker on 17/10/2008 14:51:14 game's **ed, nothing else to play though they've got you by the balls though, they know you want to stay on top so you pay to keep your chars training. --------- I JUST FOUND THE GAME!**
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:05:00 - [14] Care to take this into consideration? Things that work on a server with 10,000 subscriptions may not work on a server with 250,000 subscriptions. The EVE of 10,000 subscribers is gone and will never return. Blobbing is human nature. We live our lives and fought every one of our wars by blobbing where possible. How is CCP going to stop thousands of years of habit? The changes that made battle longer were done to allow more tactical decisions and systems during combat. Heat was the first one. CCP really dropped the ball on not following up on this sooner, leaving us with boring long battles. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Niedar MASS	Posted - 2008.10.17 15:16:00 - [15] Edited by: Niedar on 17/10/2008 15:16:24 Originally by: Washell Olivaw Care to take this into consideration? Things that work on a server with 10,000 subscriptions may not work on a server with 250,000 subscriptions. The EVE of 10,000 subscribers is gone and will never return. Blobbing is human nature. We live our lives and fought every one of our wars by blobbing where possible. How is CCP going to stop thousands of years of habit? The changes that made battle longer were done to allow more tactical decisions and systems during combat. Heat was the first one. CCP really dropped the ball on not following up on this sooner, leaving us with boring long battles. Of course it will work with 250k subscriptions. The whole problem right now is that EVE has stayed relatively the same size while its subscriptions have only increased. The EVE world has become increasingly smaller and smaller with ever new expansions. CCP created capital ships like carriers/dreads with large jump radius's allowing people to move across the map at an alarming rate, only thing needed is a cyno chain which is easy. Then they have Jump freighters which can now haul large amounts of cargo easily as if the current abilities were not enough. Then of course you have jumpclones allowing people to jump all around the map, all these problems and the ever increasing subscriptions has caused EVE to be to small. It easy to get to anywhere in the map with conventional fleets and capital fleets, making it very easy to form blobs. ------------------
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.10.17 18:17:00 - [16] I agree with TRIGGERS that the changes and expansions have made it hard, if not impossible, for small scale PvP to really exist. Back in the days, you were a big alliance when you could hold a single region (CA, SA, PA, etc.). Admittedly the numbers that were online were maybe only about 1/5th of what they are now but I think that those relatively low numbers an the masses of space to roam through made EVE seem even more like a huge and wild universe. I think that the number of solar systems has to at least double, and a large portion of that has to go into 0.0 and low security space. It's about time that the playing field was expanded to match the numbers of players that are now online at anyone time. --
dalman Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.17 20:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Self Similar http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=634652&page=1#1 Quote: Firstly, what has to happen; 1. Removal of local chat window -by far the most unrealistic and dumb auto-defence mechanism ever seen in a game of any kind.<snip> I'm still 100% sure that this is the wrong way to go: Lack of information leads to blobbing Once upon a time we had instant map statistics. Well, not instant, but like 30-60 seconds delay. As in, there wasn't some "average pilots in space during the last 30 minutes". You could open up the map and see exactly how many players were in which system some 30 seconds ago. I'm still not sure if this was changed for server load reasons or as a feature. But it was announced and widely celebrated as a feature exactly the same way that people are asking for local removal. But what effects did the instant map actually have on gameplay? I could go out with two gangmates roaming in 0.0 and see that "ok, it looks like they are 5 players camping - we can take that on" and I could avoid jumping into 20-man blobs. And it was actually completely pointless to form blobs - both for roaming and for camping - because "everyone" could see them and avoid them. The removal of information instead awarded blobbing (as well as introduced the "need" for ppl to fly around with an alt scouting). Removing local would be another big mistake that rewards blobbing. Originally by: Goumindong Wait, you're saying that the stacking penalty has made it impossible for small gangs to kill larger gangs? I hate to break it to you, but if you take the stacking penalty away all it means is that larger gangs will have an easier time killing smaller ones. The big alliances? We are just as heavily stacked in high skillpoint characters. The rest of your complaints are just impossible to rectify without a specific plan. You can't magic things to happen the way you want, you have to know why things progress as they do. Well, I don't hate to break it to you: You need to think a bit further. A higher damage/tanking ratio greatly increase the possibility to divide and conquer. With some clever tactical moves, it would be much easier for the smaller gang to win. (yes, I know I'd be a bit hypocritical to argue for damage since I rather enjoy long fights, but with so many wrongs in the game awarding numbers I'd rather take better odds on divide and conquer than remain at status quo) Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.10.17 21:04:00 - [18] Originally by: dalman Well, I don't hate to break it to you: You need to think a bit further. A higher damage/tanking ratio greatly increase the possibility to divide and conquer. With some clever tactical moves, it would be much easier for the smaller gang to win. Not really. It reduces the effect of maneuvering, which would typically make it worse for small gangs that rely on getting their gang to a target and killing it before the enemy can respond. [Because the tackler has to stay alive longer against something that can kill it very quickly]
Chib Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.10.17 23:08:00 - [19] My name is Chib And what the hell have you done with trigger but hes right tho ---------------------------------------------
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.10.18 02:37:00 - [20] I don't know how to specifically fix it, but something's certainly off. Game's lost its zest. It takes a blob to whack anything anymore. It's really the pits to log in to play "5 year plan online." Lo Trig. Yes, those were the days. Gorty -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Konzul Proutek The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.18 22:12:00 - [21] I completley agree with Triggers point and endorse it.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.10.18 23:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Murina on 18/10/2008 23:09:46 I agree that eve has changed for the worse but then its suffering from a influx of ppl and ppl bring the very worst thing to a game...human nature. How often have even myself got into a alliance with the intention of small gang non laggy pvp with a few other buddies all fitted out to be as effective as our numbers allow only a short few wks or even days later to be sitting in a POS for hours on end waiting for some tosser to gang warp us to a place i never even see cos the grid does not load. I have seen nothing in the last year or two that has added anything to the game that has helped small roaming pvp, in fact every addition and nerf has targeted and reduced the ability to be effective in small units along with boosting the ability to move huge blobs across vast distances with a few clicks of a button. Players in eve seem to becoming more and more like pawns for the few individuals at the pinnacle of each alliance or nap instead of valued individuals in well fitted ships within a gangs mechanic. And for the same reson CCP are making such drastic and individuality destroying changes...CASH.
Stefoudemon Minmatar ARCK	Posted - 2008.10.19 18:44:00 - [23] Originally by: rocka Edited by: rocka on 17/10/2008 13:45:46 I remember when it took a bs gang of 10 to take over a station in a few hours those where fun days it was a much more pertinent time where the alliance had to live in the region they took to be able to keep it and not the sov crap thing where big alliance can hold so much unused space ! i also remember my geddon with no hp boost just pure heatsink and back up array's
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari Warp to Desktop	Posted - 2008.10.20 21:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Stefoudemon Originally by: rocka Edited by: rocka on 17/10/2008 13:45:46 I remember when it took a bs gang of 10 to take over a station in a few hours those where fun days it was a much more pertinent time where the alliance had to live in the region they took to be able to keep it and not the sov crap thing where big alliance can hold so much unused space ! So SIGNED it hurts. POS warfare and sovereignty broke soooo much of the spirit that EVE used to be. It lead directly to MASSIVE blobs and so much fun breaking behaviour. --
Astria Tiphareth Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2008.10.21 11:20:00 - [25] Bringing back small gang warfare, something as a newer PvPer I believe passionately in, is not solved simply by tweaking some stacking penalties or changing HP/tank. If anything, long(er) fights are vastly more interesting and fun, because there is a chance you can actually do something other than press F1-F8 on your target and watch your hull evaporate in 30 seconds flat. Short fights turn EVE into Unreal Tournament insta-gib, with long waits between matches. Long fights promote tactics and strategy. ECM etc. is pretty pointless if everyone dies in a few seconds, for example. Today, ECM shines (perhaps even too brightly). In order to address the problem, we must first understand it. What are we looking for? Fun PvP. What is fun PvP? Much harder to answer, but to take a sweeping generalisation I'm going to say going out and shooting at other people as much as possible, whilst trying to minimise them shooting at you. On top of that, there is a problem that large fleets have a lot of firepower, a lot of (total across all ships) tank to absorb damage, and render the individual quite meaningless. From a strategic point of view, large fleet combat is very effective - you can roll over the opposition by out-numbering them. From an individual point of view, large fleets are dull, because you're a pawn in a large and often laggy game of chess. The real source of more and more large fleet battles is two-fold - safety in numbers, plus a population explosion. It takes guts to go out in a small group or solo, knowing you might get hit by a huge fleet, and most are content to stay in said huge fleets and reduce their risk. One can hardly blame them. That large fleet is going to kill a smaller fleet regardless of simple changes to stacking or hp changes, because they apply equally to both sides, and the larger fleet has already gamed the system by bringing more people to the fight. What the small gang needs is an advantage and/or target the larger fleet doesn't have as an option. There are tactics that could be supported. Electronic warfare already offers a force-divider - a small fleet with ECM could in theory triumph over a larger fleet without it by preventing the large fleet from bringing their concentrated firepower to bear. Sadly nothing stops the large fleet bringing ECM as well. On a far grander scale (and I've not been personally involved so this is going from news reports) look at BoB's mass damage offensive - it was blunted in places by denying capital ship access, thus constraining the fight to sub-capitals. What we need are further ways to constrain fights whilst keeping a freeform PvP system. I proposed one such mechanic a while ago. Guerilla warfare (the real definition, not what gets abused in EVE) is currently infeasible. The notion of guerilla warfare is that you strike where your enemy is weak (which is exactly what small gangs should be good at), but with fortified POSes protecting all critical infrastructure, jump freighters/bridges moving goods securely and massive gatecamps at chokepoints, there's little weakness to attack. The other notion closely linked to guerilla warfare is fighting on advantageous terrain, but there is no terrain in EVE at all. Often the best way to defeat your opponent, especially when outnumbered, is through guile. Sadly EVE has very little to support this sort of warfare (in-game anyway) beyond a small range of cloaked ships. Local and a few scouts pretty much gives fleet positions away, meaning there is little real room for evasive manoeuvring or cloak'n'dagger antics, which would allow small gangs to dance around larger fleets attacking the aforementioned missing weaknesses. Larger fleets are never going to go away, but you can make small gangs meaningful by giving them objectives that don't require a large fleet to achieve, and giving them ways to survive the large fleets. ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2008.10.23 02:46:00 - [26] Originally by: Jaabaa Prime Originally by: Stefoudemon Originally by: rocka Edited by: rocka on 17/10/2008 13:45:46 I remember when it took a bs gang of 10 to take over a station in a few hours those where fun days it was a much more pertinent time where the alliance had to live in the region they took to be able to keep it and not the sov crap thing where big alliance can hold so much unused space ! So SIGNED it hurts. POS warfare and sovereignty broke soooo much of the spirit that EVE used to be. It lead directly to MASSIVE blobs and so much fun breaking behaviour. I soooooo endorse this it brings tears to eyes for what Eve used to be pre POS wf.... -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Sith8 The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.10.29 09:39:00 - [27] Just roll back to RMR Gawd I want my snipergeddon back.
Eluhaf	Posted - 2008.10.29 14:20:00 - [28] Introduce new regions with no POS and no caps, and multiple entries to every system to break camps, and ofc some form of static plexes. It's simple make space that doesn't appeal to the large blob alliances, and gives something of value to fight over.
Eluhaf	Posted - 2008.10.29 14:24:00 - [29] And how much do you think CCP paid Massively for their PVP "review" that stated small scale warfare was alive and well in EVE. But mybe these days 30 people is "small scale"
Samule Dates Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.11.22 12:30:00 - [30] I to agree with the Trig but unfortunately I can't see it ever changing. I think we've moved to far down the road to head back or should I say CCP have moved the goal posts too far for them to go back. But letÆs look at this from another view. For as many who say we should go back to those heady days there will be an army of others saying we don't. Almost every nerf has been brought on by those that shout loudest and complain the most. As CCP try to fix one thing they tend to damage (nerf) the playing style of another part of the EvE community. Most recent was the nano nerf. I have to say Nano Pilots never really bothered me as you just worked a way around it and found a way to kill them (normally other nano pilots or Webbers, I found worked rather well). I too would like to see small gang warfare grow stronger so that we can go back to those small fast hitting gangs where it doesnÆt take a week to kill people, giving them the time to call in troops. But the problem is those who were being caught and killed made a loud noise about why it needed to be changed so it was. News Flash for CCP guys, people will always complain (Ask any CEO or Alliance leader). Give them some thing new to play with and they will shut up until the next complaint. I think (for what small knowledge I have) I would like to see CCP stop nerf and just give us more things to play with. More ships e.g. if you have one type of ship that you find kicks butt, give us something to counter it a little, rather than try nerfing it. Concentrate on making EvE a bigger place (e.g. more systems in and out of empire, make the systems bigger). Give those that want to kill each other new ways to do so not nerf the crap out of stuff to stop us. Give those that want to mission new harder more rewarding missions. Give those that want to mine and build stuff more interesting ways to do it (if that's possible). BUT STOP THE NERFING. Making EvE more complicated will in the end kill it off for many in my humble opinion. /me looks up, Damn!! when I started I was just going to post I agree with Trigger

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