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Prism X and training queues

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:21:00 - [31] Originally by: Nypon I am a bit confused over how the a skill-que system could be "abused" now that ghost-training has been removed? The one and only issue with skill-ques where exactly the ghost-training mechanism (not bug..). The devs think that allowing people to queue skills would mean an empty server as people only play EVE for the joy of changing skills. The idea that some people actually enjoy playing this game must be false. CCP knows that changing skills is the one and only reason any sane person would voluntarily log on. They also seem to be under the impression that when people log on to change skills they stay to play with their corp mates. I must be somehow a special case since, if I want to just change skills for some reason I log, change the skill, say hi/bye to corpies and log off. CCP you have made a great game. People enjoy themselves playing the actual game. You seem to be the only people left that have no confidence in your own product. Skill queue will not be the end of EVE. Almost everyone wants it implemented and so won't ragequit, if you implement it. Take some pride in your own god damn accomplishments and have a little faith.
midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:22:00 - [32] And you wonder why the devs dont tell us shit anymore... they say they will look into somethign and its taken as gospel and will be ready and implemented the very next day... -----------------------------------------------
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.10.16 08:34:00 - [33] Skill Queuing, well this should log the character in and then change - so if they are in space they appear and do the normal stuff, this is to stop people from avoiding the situation whee they ahve a skill change in enemy teritory etc... -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve
Ancorehraq sis Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:05:00 - [34] I'm a little confused. Why exactly are skill queues and ghost training incompatible? I thought CCP had a programmer somewhere capable of tackling this algorithmic challenge.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:07:00 - [35] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 16/10/2008 09:07:32 Originally by: Ancorehraq sis I'm a little confused. Why exactly are skill queues and ghost training incompatible? I thought CCP had a programmer somewhere capable of tackling this algorithmic challenge. Skill queue and GT would've allowed a ton of training on inactive accounts. Skill queue needs new stuff added to the skill code stuff etc. It's not as easy as "20 if skill done = start skill" My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Rramar Claime Amarr Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:09:00 - [36] Originally by: CCP Atropos However, given the recent hoohah about ghost training and the usual "I don't like this feature, I'm going to threaten to quit" that the forums accumulate, it's generated a lot of idle coffee machine chat. Since I'm not in EVE Game Design, though, I have no idea if this constitues any sort of formal design. It could simply be that, as players ourselves, we have just as much vigour and lust for the game as the next forum patron Finally. Thank you. Took more than 130+50 pages thou to see that "rabble" actually does have an effect. "I cherish the memories of a question my grandson asked me the other day, when he said; 'Grandpa, were you a hero in the war?' Grandpa said, 'No, but I served in a company of heroes."
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:28:00 - [37] I'm against automated skill queuing because I think it's a personal skill that should be developed. I think I should be rewarded for my ability to plan ahead and to stop/start training in order to fit it around real-life. It's part of time management and is a useful skill in real-life as well. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:34:00 - [38] Edited by: Misanth on 16/10/2008 09:34:22 Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: CCP Atropos Heh, true. I was just trying to point out that these beloved forums are often full to the brim with rabble rabble. Rabble rabble rabble! Originally by: Shard Merchant How are you! We do not rabble rabble. We mine, mine, mine, mineminemine. Thanks for the advert guys, checks' in the mail. <- /me points at corp tag
Kerfira	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Nypon I am a bit confused over how the a skill-que system could be "abused" now that ghost-training has been removed? For a normal player, a limited skill queue like the one I suggested would be completely sufficient. Even if a player only plays once per week, setting a short and then a long skill would suffice until next time they log in. For ISK farmers (who sees accounts getting banned regularly so have to keep training new ones) and character farmers, it is a different matter. Each time they have to log in is extra work for them. If they can just queue up the skill tree for a macro-miner/macro-ratter/cookie-cutter char and then only worry about paying the account, it'd make life much easier for them. Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.16 10:10:00 - [40] Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. [...] It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. That did sound like a go-ahead to me at the time.

Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:06:00 - [41] Edited by: Andrue on 16/10/2008 11:07:04 Originally by: Poreuomai Originally by: CCP Wrangler Noah (CCP) indicated CCPÆs awareness of the player frustrations with the ~6 hour duration skill trainings. [...] It was concluded that CCP will look into a solution for this issue. That did sound like a go-ahead to me at the time. Not to a native English speaker. 'look into' means 'do some research'. That quotation says nothing about whether a solution will be implemented. Merely that someone at CCP will spend some time thinking about how a problem could be solved. That's the problem they face with every post they make. So many people on these boards are lacking in English comprehension. Worse still they either don't know it or don't care and are happy to jump to their own conclusions. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:46:00 - [42] Edited by: Poreuomai on 16/10/2008 11:54:25 I happen to be both a native english speaker and a developer. The key word was solution. If they had said they will look into the problem, then I would agree with you. Instead they said they will be looking into a solution, which (to me) sounded like they will make an actual attempt to fix the issue.
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:05:00 - [43] Edited by: Misanth on 16/10/2008 12:07:04 Originally by: Andrue Not to a native English speaker. .. That's the problem they face with every post they make. So many people on these boards are lacking in English comprehension. Worse still they either don't know it or don't care and are happy to jump to their own conclusions. Interesting enough I find it to be rather the opposite. I'm not native english speaking. I know there's mistakes in grammar and spelling. But I really do try to write properly, thus it's a bloody PITA to read posts from native english speakers who CBA to write properly, and/or spell sloppy. Generalising is bad mmkay, we're both assuming 'the others' are at fault in this case, while both (obviously) to try write somewhat correct. The reason GM's and devs tend to write less on the forums is probably rather because the shitty response they often get, rather than people misunderstanding what they say. Obviously one of them often leads to the other, and in some cases, it's very likely it's being escalated and added to the confusion by trolls who deliberately crash the threads. I think we can see tho that they (CCP employees) been more active on these forums lately. Just my experience, no statistics on it, but looks good to me in that regard. Thus the OP's question doesn't feel completely misplaced either, imho.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Poreuomai I happen to be both a native english speaker and a developer. The key word was solution. If they had said they will look into the problem, then I would agree with you. Instead they said they will be looking into a solution, which (to me) sounded like they will make an actual attempt to fix the issue. Ah but as a developer you should know, that even if one looks for a solution, the solution won't necessarily be implemented and/or found My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Chaos Incarnate Faceless Logistics	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Rabble rabble rabble! Thanks for the advert guys, checks' in the mail. <- /me points at corp tag My wallet still says 0 isk I consider this post to be full of LIES __________ Sig by Neth'Rae Cannot read from face Abort, Retry, Fail? FFFFFF
Jack Gilligan THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:38:00 - [46] Edited by: Jack Gilligan on 16/10/2008 12:38:06 Originally by: Drolic Threaten to quit? Get someone to check... I already did! And something should be discussed...SOE's history....that might wake some people up! Having lived though the total brutalization of SWG, seeing it's skill based sandbox heart ripped out and replaced with a poorly designed WOW clone, changes like the ones CCP have been making lately frankly frighten me. Must be some sort of curse that games that get to 250-300K-ish subs (like SWG was) come down with, once a game achieves this level of success the paper-pushers in the beancounter departments get "Wow gold fever" and suddenly think some magic revamp that dumbs the game down or punishes existing hardcore players will get them 10 million subs. There is way too much change on the test server, too poorly designed, too badly implemented. What is on the test server amounts to a DRASTIC change in EVE's combat system. It should NOT be done in it's current form, and as yet, not one Dev has even engaged any of us who suggest that a smaller scale solution to the nano problem (such as capping cruiser and BS speeds) would be more appropriate. My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Heckubus	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:17:00 - [47] Edited by: Heckubus on 16/10/2008 15:19:03 Originally by: CCP Atropos Quote: PrismX is just the sort of sarcastic, jaded individual who would promise us something like this because he knows it won't get the OK from the higher-ups. .. ..... I'm just kidding. Really, I'm joking here. Please don't "misplace" my database entry, PrismX... However, given the recent hoohah about ghost training and the usual "I don't like this feature, I'm going to threaten to quit" that the forums accumulate, it's generated a lot of idle coffee machine chat. Since I'm not in EVE Game Design, though, I have no idea if this constitues any sort of formal design. It could simply be that, as players ourselves, we have just as much vigour and lust for the game as the next forum patron Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts. Threaten my rear end. You know I want to explain something to you, since you seem lost. Its real easy to claim to love a game more, or the same as a player when stuff like this happens when YOU DON'T PAY FOR YOUR ACCOUNTS. Just as I could swallow the BS Sony fed people because I didn't pay for mine. So please, the last thing CCP needs is you patronizing people, because those people who did only threaten and didn't have the balls to quit, will read your post and as pompous as it sounds can sure be the nail in the coffin of those people who were on the fence.
Aclyn Seriy Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Heckubus Edited by: Heckubus on 16/10/2008 15:19:03 Originally by: CCP Atropos Quote: PrismX is just the sort of sarcastic, jaded individual who would promise us something like this because he knows it won't get the OK from the higher-ups. .. ..... I'm just kidding. Really, I'm joking here. Please don't "misplace" my database entry, PrismX... However, given the recent hoohah about ghost training and the usual "I don't like this feature, I'm going to threaten to quit" that the forums accumulate, it's generated a lot of idle coffee machine chat. Since I'm not in EVE Game Design, though, I have no idea if this constitues any sort of formal design. It could simply be that, as players ourselves, we have just as much vigour and lust for the game as the next forum patron Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts. Threaten my rear end. You know I want to explain something to you, since you seem lost. Its real easy to claim to love a game more, or the same as a player when stuff like this happens when YOU DON'T PAY FOR YOUR ACCOUNTS. Just as I could swallow the BS Sony fed people because I didn't pay for mine. So please, the last thing CCP needs is you patronizing people, because those people who did only threaten and didn't have the balls to quit, will read your post and as pompous as it sounds can sure be the nail in the coffin of those people who were on the fence. angry man is angry Originally by: techzer0 I'm the failboat captain
Sephrin Minmatar Imperium Forces	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:40:00 - [49] Whiners... Please stop putting words in my mouth, really, don't speak as if you are every player in the game, its very very annoying. Although I understand people being slightly irritated over this issue, I for one and everyone in my corp, are continuing to play the game. Therefor I would appreciate it if you don't assume that EVE's entire population is as immature and emo as you. Quote: Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts. Threaten my rear end. You know I want to explain something to you, since you seem lost. Its real easy to claim to love a game more, or the same as a player when stuff like this happens when YOU DON'T PAY FOR YOUR ACCOUNTS. Just as I could swallow the BS Sony fed people because I didn't pay for mine. So please, the last thing CCP needs is you patronizing people, because those people who did only threaten and didn't have the balls to quit, will read your post and as pompous as it sounds can sure be the nail in the coffin of those people who were on the fence. Since your accounts are closed, I believe that you no longer have anything to say that anyone wants to hear. So please stop posting and farewell...
Misanth RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Originally by: Misanth Originally by: Chaos Incarnate Rabble rabble rabble! Thanks for the advert guys, checks' in the mail. <- /me points at corp tag My wallet still says 0 isk I consider this post to be full of LIES Check (cheque?) again.

Drolic Caldari The Dirt Dogs	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:01:00 - [51] Originally by: Heckubus Edited by: Heckubus on 16/10/2008 15:19:03 Originally by: CCP Atropos Quote: PrismX is just the sort of sarcastic, jaded individual who would promise us something like this because he knows it won't get the OK from the higher-ups. .. ..... I'm just kidding. Really, I'm joking here. Please don't "misplace" my database entry, PrismX... However, given the recent hoohah about ghost training and the usual "I don't like this feature, I'm going to threaten to quit" that the forums accumulate, it's generated a lot of idle coffee machine chat. Since I'm not in EVE Game Design, though, I have no idea if this constitues any sort of formal design. It could simply be that, as players ourselves, we have just as much vigour and lust for the game as the next forum patron Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts. Threaten my rear end. You know I want to explain something to you, since you seem lost. Its real easy to claim to love a game more, or the same as a player when stuff like this happens when YOU DON'T PAY FOR YOUR ACCOUNTS. Just as I could swallow the BS Sony fed people because I didn't pay for mine. So please, the last thing CCP needs is you patronizing people, because those people who did only threaten and didn't have the balls to quit, will read your post and as pompous as it sounds can sure be the nail in the coffin of those people who were on the fence. ACK! CCP Atropos already answered a similar post by me in this thread. I don't think we're being patronized at least not here (missing 70page thread, "not a conspiracy" new thread locked?)! I'm sure that there are good people working at CCP! Just because the beancounters won this round hasn't sullied everyone involved, at least not to me!
Ancorehraq sis Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Ancorehraq sis I'm a little confused. Why exactly are skill queues and ghost training incompatible? I thought CCP had a programmer somewhere capable of tackling this algorithmic challenge. Skill queue and GT would've allowed a ton of training on inactive accounts. I still don't see how this follows. I'm sure CCP does have someone with mastery of if statements.
James Marshalll Gallente	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:44:00 - [53] Originally by: Sephrin Whiners... Please stop putting words in my mouth, really, don't speak as if you are every player in the game, its very very annoying. Although I understand people being slightly irritated over this issue, I for one and everyone in my corp, are continuing to play the game. Therefor I would appreciate it if you don't assume that EVE's entire population is as immature and emo as you. Quote: Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts. Threaten my rear end. You know I want to explain something to you, since you seem lost. Its real easy to claim to love a game more, or the same as a player when stuff like this happens when YOU DON'T PAY FOR YOUR ACCOUNTS. Just as I could swallow the BS Sony fed people because I didn't pay for mine. So please, the last thing CCP needs is you patronizing people, because those people who did only threaten and didn't have the balls to quit, will read your post and as pompous as it sounds can sure be the nail in the coffin of those people who were on the fence. Since your accounts are closed, I believe that you no longer have anything to say that anyone wants to hear. So please stop posting and farewell... until my subs are gone, ill post all I want. Sorry cupcake. And as for Mr. Angryman is Angry.. I'm not angry because I voice feedback to the people who take my money every month. Sorry. But in my mid 30's and been through in life what Ive been through, having 2 kids, married, trust me, the last thing to make me "angry" is a 21 year old **** talking bs on a forum, or a video game full of spaceships. That does not mean I won't voice my feedback. Sorry nubs.
Illwill Bill Minmatar Genos Occidere Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:50:00 - [54] Posting to confirm that I love the idea of a skill queue, and that I would not play less because of it.
DaDutchDude Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.10.16 19:08:00 - [55] Edited by: DaDutchDude on 16/10/2008 19:10:50 Originally by: James Marshalll Originally by: Sephrin [..] until my subs are gone, ill post all I want. Sorry cupcake. And as for Mr. Angryman is Angry.. I'm not angry because I voice feedback to the people who take my money every month. Sorry. But in my mid 30's and been through in life what Ive been through, having 2 kids, married, trust me, the last thing to make me "angry" is a 21 year old ** talking bs on a forum, or a video game full of spaceships. That does not mean I won't voice my feedback. Sorry nubs. Ah yes ... it's a really mature way to provide feedback too. - "Oh really, Threaten? Look at my Status of my accounts.": If you didn't threaten but really did cancel, why do you feel the need to respond? If the shoe doesn't fit ... - "Threaten my rear end.": What kind of feedback is this, other then venting anger? - Using terms as "cupcake" instead of using a name: wow, really mature there - "a 21 year old talking bs": You're right, that doesn't sound angry at all. I'm sure your wife and kids are use to you referring to them as **s too right? - "Sorry nubs": Ah yes, what a mature way to close off your feedback ... kudos. Perhaps some feedback 101 might help you. Here's something that could be construed as constructive, respectful, mature feedback without all the angry emo-rage: "The proposed changes that CCP has announced don't fit my view of what EVE should be like. Also, it negatively effects the value of my in-game possessions to a large degree and unbalances the style of game play I enjoy. All that added together means I no longer think the enjoyment I get out of EVE is worth the money I pay for it. Therefore I've decided to cancel my account for now. I hope CCP will take this into account and reconsiders their changes, both now and in the future." Too bad we don't see many responses like this, because I would fully respect it. However, many of people threatening to quit, some probably quiting, after disguising their emo-rage as feedback, being very disrespectful towards CCP and other players in the process. I can understand that from 12 year old children that do not yet understand the world doesn't revolve around what they want, but I don't expect that from people beyond the age of 25, esp. when you should have matured through the experience of having a wife and kids.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.16 20:32:00 - [56] Edited by: Andrue on 16/10/2008 20:33:58 Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Poreuomai I happen to be both a native english speaker and a developer. The key word was solution. If they had said they will look into the problem, then I would agree with you. Instead they said they will be looking into a solution, which (to me) sounded like they will make an actual attempt to fix the issue. Ah but as a developer you should know, that even if one looks for a solution, the solution won't necessarily be implemented and/or found Beat me to it :) Usual scenario in commercial software development: * A problem is found. * The problem is analysed to determine what the impact is on the users. * If the impact is deemed to be large enough developer(s) are assigned to look into a solution. * The solution(s) found by the developers are discussed/compared/used to wipe people's noses and generally thrown around the corporate infrastructure until even the rats in the basement have read them and commented. * Someone who knows all about the ramifications is asked to decide whether to proceed or not (probably the tea lady or some wandering idiot that accidently walked into reception). * If the go ahead is given a schedule is proposed for implementing the solution (the developers are often not asked or their opinion ignored when it comes to scheduling). * The developer might ask for additional resources. * The developer request for resources will be ignored or raised with management resulting in several days of meetings after which no-one can remember why they were asking..and if the developer is lucky they won't even have been asked to the meetings. Really lucky developers get forgotten completely and left alone to do their job in peace. * Developer implements the solution (hurrrrah) * QA reject it because they don't understand it. (boooo) * The build prep guys forget to include the right libraries. Or DLLs. Or any executable modules. * The fix is released to the world. * ..too late to be of use. or * ..in a form that renders the fix useless/irrelevant or downright bloody stupid. So 'looking in to a solution' in software development terms does not mean much -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.10.17 09:44:00 - [57] Originally by: Ancorehraq sis Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Ancorehraq sis I'm a little confused. Why exactly are skill queues and ghost training incompatible? I thought CCP had a programmer somewhere capable of tackling this algorithmic challenge. Skill queue and GT would've allowed a ton of training on inactive accounts. I still don't see how this follows. I'm sure CCP does have someone with mastery of if statements. No kidding. CCP may do dumb things sometimes, but to even think that they would do something so astronomically stupid as allowing skill queues on terminated accounts implies a serious lack of matter between the ears. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Braaage All you have to do is to determine the short skill by the skill multiplier. Say set a short skill upto x6 multiplier and set a long one from x6 - whatever is the largest. Or even make it so it's possible to have 2 short ones queued (for instance a new player wont have a x6 upwards skill). I'd rather they just look at the training time left to completion. When you've done 99% of a skill, even if it's x8, that last little bit is effectively a short skill, and is still annoying to manage. I can see their point about changing skills being an inducement to play. But at the same time, needing to change a skill at 4am is not really an inducement, it's an annoyance. Even if I do log in to do it, I'm not going to be doing any meaningful gameplay apart from changing that skill. Personally, I'd opt for a skill queue where you could queue up skills within the limit that the start time of the last queued skill must be within 24-36 hours of the current time. This would still let the skill system generate inducement for people to log in regularly, while allowing them to time-shift that inducement to a more convenient point in the day, when they are more likely to be able to engage in a more meaningful playing session. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Mikal Drey Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:57:00 - [59] hey hey just a small minor thought. wouldnt a skill queue and ghost training go quite well together. if the skill queue was implemented for active subscribers arent both parties happy ? killing the ghost training element solves any issues with the character alting thing.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2008.10.17 14:34:00 - [60] Edited by: Andrue on 17/10/2008 14:36:28 Originally by: Matthew I can see their point about changing skills being an inducement to play. But at the same time, needing to change a skill at 4am is not really an inducement, it's an annoyance. Even if I do log in to do it, I'm not going to be doing any meaningful gameplay apart from changing that skill. That's where the personal skill part becomes relevant. You stop training the skill that finishes at an inconvenient time and switch to one that will tide you over until it's more convenient. When you next log back on you can restart the skill you deferred. I tend to maintain a collection of different duration skills so that I can chop and change as my RL schedule allows. I occasionally log on just to change a skill but never at a silly time like 4am. I believe that I should be able to gain an advantage by being good at time management and planning. A skill queue reduces that advantage. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran, 4+ years) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.



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