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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Lydia Brightlance Gallente V.O.C	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:32:00 - [31] What I really want is to be able to see who are putting up what orders. Right now I need to buy something to see who sold it, and to make it worse, no matter which order I select, the code forces me to buy the lowest price. Now, if we can see who is putting up orders we can start using some more aggressive market tactics, or even wardec the one who is using the orders.
Snasty	Posted - 2008.10.16 09:47:00 - [32] As a fairly serious trader I undercut by 0.01 and also by several million, it depends on many factors as to which is the appropiate choice at the time. I will say only this, dont assume that the order owner that has undercut you is "dumb" or "stupid". You have no idea what works for me or any other trader for that matter. If you have been undercut by a large margin just buy the stock if you want and make the profit that you think the other seller is missing out on. Go on, teach him a lesson in trading and make all the money he could have made Also, I would suggest that had you posted this in MD you would have recieved some far more sensible replies / flames. But if you want to understand some of the finer points of trading perhaps a quick visit there and just reading a few posts would have enlightened you all somewhat. Complaining that someone is selling for less than you is like complaining that someone has fitted their ship in a "dumb" or "stupid" way, and then kicked ya ass with that very same fitting.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.10.16 10:51:00 - [33] Get off that high horse snast.
Snasty	Posted - 2008.10.16 10:59:00 - [34] You have no idea how high my horse is, thats my point.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:05:00 - [35] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 16/10/2008 11:05:46 Originally by: Snasty You have no idea how high my horse is, thats my point. Well i'm betting it's a dead horse, 'cause i doubt PODs have breathing tubes and such for horsies Even if there are a couple of asses flying around My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
RedSplat	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:06:00 - [36] So how long before we get tradebears screaming 'nerf undercutting'?
Lady Valory Caldari Caldari Strike Force	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:12:00 - [37] 1) some people own t2 bpos... they can offer prices WAY lower, especially on stuff like ammo where they mass produce it out of proportion to demand... The OP needs to ask if a t2 bpo ammo holder moved into the system 2) what some people (like me do) is put up stuff for sale in large batches lower, lower, lower then when the market reacts, I just buy out a whole region, and reset the price to where I make even more profit... Remember some people have 5-10-20-30 billion isk and we can make large plays to capture markets... 3) some people own PART of a t2 moon chain... If I make titanium carbide like millions and millions per month, I might make caldari T2 mods and ships and sell them AT A LOSS, just so I can move all my t2 materials at a PROFIT... Thus what looks like market idiocy to you is just me moving 50 eagles where I still make a profit since I own part of the t2 production chain for them... 4) Many many pvpers loot enormous amounts of stuff and then just want the isk... When you look over freighter kills, you find 100s or t2 mods and ships, these people just dump stuff below market... Perhaps your missile seller killed a hauler with lots of missiles... 5) Some 0.0 regions have really mega haulers... I have gotten 100mil trit from the best of them and just last week I got one with 10 mil pyer and 300000 nocium. Yes, these are FREE minerals, so I just build cheap t1 cruisers in low sec, jump freighter them to hi-sec, and sell at a hub at a slight loss to the build cost, BUT I'm able to move lots and lots and lots of FREE minerals... The basic plan is this: small pos in 0.0, leads to 100mil trit, leads to compress with rorqual, leads to making mass amounts of stuff cheap, leads to selling at a loss... Anyway, my main point is you are railing and flaming market people when you seem to just play the market rather small time. People who are large large and well capitalized industrialists play it differently.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2008.10.16 11:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Plim I have just started traded over the past week, and I can tell you, I know exactly what you are getting at There is no logical reason to undercut your competition by more than 0.1 isk, unless you can undercut them significantly enough to force them out of the market. So in effect, people are undercutting themselves, because the competition has to lower their price to the same level and the entire market value goes down. There is a good reason to undercut you more than 0.01. It will often allow you to sell stuff without hassle with counter undercuting 0.01 in few minutes.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:03:00 - [39] If the normal price is 1900 and a lot of people are dumping at 1200ish then buy the stock at 1200 and put it back on at 1900. You need to understand that people are stupid. For shits and giggled I put stuff on the market of a moderately low quantity at about 60% of the normal value and people continued to pile massive quantities blow that price so I bought out everything and put back at the original price. You need to know what IS market value otherwise people will go out of their way to **** with the market price just to rob people who are a bit thick blind. It is a very good get rich quick scheme if you hit the right products. ;)
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:06:00 - [40] Originally by: Sokratesz Edited by: Sokratesz on 16/10/2008 08:45:32 People thinking that loot and minerals mined are 'free' are the main source of these kind of stupidity. For macroers, they pretty much are. How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Beckoner Venhatha	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:08:00 - [41] just to clarify : if I gather 1mill Trit in loot reproccessing and want to get rid of it for 2.7isk per instead of the 3 everyone else wants then i'm an idiot? (even if this difference in value to me is worth a quick sale rather than tying up one of my limited sale slots for long - rather keep em for high value loot items)
Snasty	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:23:00 - [42] I think that Lady Valory closed this thread by providing far more information than I would have bothered to offer... So I think I shall make my way to the "why is the server not up yet" thread. Enjoy...
Trinneth	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:27:00 - [43] As others have said, if you believe the market is undervaluing something then buy the undervalued stock and re-list it at a higher price. If you're right, you profit, if you're wrong then you learn that you were wrong and can make better appraisals in the future.
Veldya Guristari Freedom Fighters	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:38:00 - [44] Originally by: Beckoner Venhatha just to clarify : if I gather 1mill Trit in loot reproccessing and want to get rid of it for 2.7isk per instead of the 3 everyone else wants then i'm an idiot? (even if this difference in value to me is worth a quick sale rather than tying up one of my limited sale slots for long - rather keep em for high value loot items) You pretty much nailed it in one, you are an idiot. If you and every other moron decided, we are selling our trit at 7isk then you would be getting 7isk. To go to the effort to mine and to sell it so cheap is just bordering on comical. If you guys had a brain cell among the lot of you then you would at least attempt to form a mineral cartel and fix pricing.
Ka Mizu Mushroom Samba	Posted - 2008.10.16 13:15:00 - [45] Unfortunately the minimum age for playing the game is 13 and there is no degree in economics as a prerequisite for playing either. This means there are lots of people who dont have a clue, which is obviously pretty annoying, but it is a game. They are playing it to have fun however they want, and lose out on money through ignorance/impatience because they dont care to take it as in-depth as many others. The way i look at it, it is a little bit of a good thing. If these people were not there, screwing with the market, then the economy in eve may get a little too "real" and we would likely soon see markets dominated by players or cartels that do have a clue - people with a brain, professionals, or just people who take an imaginary market far too seriously - and the balance of wealth in eve could end up considerably more skewed than it is. On the other hand... sometimes seeing the actions of these idiot traders does make me fear for humanity's future. Ka
Imhothar Xarodit Minmatar Wolverine Solutions	Posted - 2008.10.16 14:41:00 - [46] We had this funny thing in 0.0, too. Imagine a region with 2 constellations that are about 20 jumps away from each other, both with their own market hubs. These two contellations are controlled by two entities hostile to each other. Now there is a specific item sold in both constellations, constellation A has it at say 1 mil and constellation B has it at 2 mil. Now comes the idiocy, someone in constellation B wants to sell this one item and sets it up at 999k isk. He feels his own order threatened by an order 20 jumps away in hostile territory! Quote: WHY??!!? is exactly what you think that moment.
Karl Mattar Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2008.10.16 14:49:00 - [47] In every annoyance, you can find opportunity. People who are putting things up for silly prices aren't smart enough to really look at a market chart and see what the rest of us see. Last weekend I made 100 million in about three hours buying up severely underpriced items and selling them to existing buy orders a few jumps away, and just across the regional border. Incompetent traders may **** you off, but to me they are just another resource to exploit.
Skarlett Ohera	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:07:00 - [48] I am one of your market "idiots". I might as well tell you my mentality. I was in the Tech 2 Lottery gathering points and never won a blueprint. Myself and friend tried invention and had plans to make ships and mods. We didn't want to be big players just make enough to keep up equiped with Tech II gear. BIG MISTAKE. Cost us a lot of ISK to learn that lesson. BUT I still have those agents. Every few months I take them out and sell the datacores. So I price them to sell. To me they are "free". Takes me 10 minutes to get them and move them to a market hub. The amount of ISK I have made just by selling the Datacores has paid for the skill books and invention computers many times over. Then I wait a few more months and do it again. Now for minerals, its Football season (In the USA). I mine while the game is on watching TV. I don't care about efficiency, minerals or ISK per hour. I sit there mine till the can is full and hull it back to the station. Repeat till the games done. Check the market; price it to sell. Now I know I can make more by playing the market and have done so in the past. Made some nice money doing that. I don't want to do that anymore. I would rather see my wallet jump up say 10 million in a day than 15 million in a week and half. Tradebear tears are so sweet its worth the loss anyway.
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:17:00 - [49] I think some people are given the EVE player base too much credit. Most people don't seem to be undercutting by large amounts out of some process of financial genius, they do it because they are choosing some arbitrary figure which ends up hurting their own returns, when the competition brings their stock down to the same price. That is certainly what I have observed in most cases. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
StuckToon Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.10.16 15:38:00 - [50] I love playing the market for months of low low buy orders in many regions and moving the junk to where it is actually needed selling for 500-2000% profit margin, usually at least 2 bil/month based on wallet balance and my charachter age. That being said I really enjoy getting emails from 'wise' people explaining to me that after they bought out my junk I undercut them 5-10% they now control the supply! works for them I guess... little do they know they spent 3 mil per item I got at 150k. It is another thing I do when I see supply drying up or really undervalued market to spend 700 mil or so buying everything then put up buy orders to keep the supply OUT so I can mark up to whatever. Really dissapointing though when your internet connection chooses to ignore eve and only eve for 3 weeks or better I lost control of my carefully managed takeover. (I got connection back somewhat and there are only very few still for sale some of my product has moved as well so already made back a good amount of the investment)
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Verx Interis But I've seen multiple times where the cheapest orders are in Jita and people still undercut by a lot (which doesn't seem to remove competition seeing as everyone and their mother undercuts them) this can also be a person who is interested in buying a bunch of X messing with the prices. if you "sell" a modest quantity of X cheap you can con the bot traders into cutting their prices and bringing everyone else down with them. can save yourself a bundle this way.
Faife Noctiscion	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:29:00 - [52] i dont undercut for profit, i undercut to drive you out of business i guess i'm a market griefer -- Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Tatsujin Koufu	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:35:00 - [53] You can always sell tommorow what you can sell today, dont be in such a hurry The market works fine, if some birk is selling at a price you KNOW to be a loss, have the courage of your conviction and buy him out, more profit for you. If you dont have that conviction you have no right to complain, and if your already buying them out for a profit why would you complain? See where im going with this....
Highwind Cid	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:36:00 - [54] Not sure if I'm getting. How does someone else selling their same stuff for cheaper sell your stuff for that price? The doesn't make any sense at all. Your stuff should sell when people hand pick your name. This is bizarre?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:50:00 - [55] People price merchandise at what it is worth to them. This has nothing to do with being stupid, since there is no fixed price. The market makes the price, and those who price things low, or undercut things in large steps are simply part of the market and thus help determine the price. If all market players had equal preferences, personalities and strategies, the market would get boring real quick. If people find selling stuff on the market boring, and they rather be missioning, then why invest more of their playing time to get a more optimal price? That would be stupidity. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.16 16:52:00 - [56] But you lose profitssssss. Yes that was an X series reference. So pod me. Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:02:00 - [57] 1. Put sell order up on overpriced item in a place way off the routes but within a region. 2. Your stuff doesnt sell. 3. Region prices drop to match you. 4. Buy out market. 5. Repost all sell orders at their overpriced price prior to yoru itnervention. 6. Profit. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Zaknussem Caldari The Ironbreakers	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:09:00 - [58] I'm in the "have a few valuable modules, want a fast sell" group. I know how the market works and could propably turn a tidy profit using the various tactics around...if I only could be bothered to do so. EvE is a casual game for me, not a way of life. Sometimes my lower-priced modules (usually singular ones) end up causing the price to go down for a short while. In one particular case, that lower price stuck around for a month. "Oops"
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.10.16 17:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Plim There is no logical reason to undercut your competition by more than 0.1 isk, unless you can undercut them significantly enough to force them out of the market. Heres a reason for you. I pulled my produce out of a hauler wreck and I dont want to sit in jita all day undercutting you by 0.01 again and again. So ill undercut you by enough to get it all shifted fast SKUNK
Plim Gallente Oursulaert Technology Institute	Posted - 2008.10.16 18:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Le Skunk Originally by: Plim There is no logical reason to undercut your competition by more than 0.1 isk, unless you can undercut them significantly enough to force them out of the market. Heres a reason for you. I pulled my produce out of a hauler wreck and I dont want to sit in jita all day undercutting you by 0.01 again and again. So ill undercut you by enough to get it all shifted fast SKUNK In most cases it dosen't effect the speed of the sale, as I pointed out earlier. Often it just results in lowering the market value to the new level. Unless you undercut dramatically with a large amount of stock, in which case, yes you will sell quickly due to re-sale, but you are likely to lose a lot of isk. But really I was refering to traders/manufacturers who pick some arbitrary value within the range of a normal acceptable sale price (but below the lowest on the market), which does not increase the speed of the sale, it just results in less profit when someone undercuts them (in effect they undercut themselves). Which is what I usually observe. I understand that there are cases where people have a legitimate reason for undercutting by more than 0.1 isk. However I think it usually occurs due to lack of understanding of the market forces, than intentional strategy. I think I was recently brainwashed by the Ferengi Commerce Authority because i'm actually enjoying selling shit on the market and I haven't blown anyone up in weeks Rudolf: "I was sworn to absolute secrecy by Santa Claus."

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